IRC log of tagmem on 2011-01-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:05:43 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
18:05:43 [RRSAgent]
logging to
18:06:07 [Yves]
18:06:19 [jar]
Scribe: Yves
18:06:43 [Yves]
Agenda for next week will include 'mime on the web' document
18:06:50 [Yves]
no regrets
18:06:52 [Yves]
jar to scribe
18:07:06 [Yves]
Topic: approval of minutes
18:07:36 [noah]
RESOLUTION: Minutes of 14 january 2011 ( ) are approved
18:07:47 [Yves]
Topic: administrative items
18:08:03 [Yves]
status report has been published
18:08:30 [DKA]
I will be there.
18:09:02 [Yves]
f2f is in 3 weeks, need to work on the agenda
18:09:46 [Yves]
yves will participate remotely
18:10:25 [Yves]
the meeting room will be announced
18:10:37 [noah]
ACTION: Noah to do F2F local arrangements
18:10:38 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-512 - Do F2F local arrangements [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-01-27].
18:10:43 [noah]
ACTION: Noah to do F2F agenda
18:10:43 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-513 - Do F2F agenda [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-01-27].
18:12:12 [noah]
18:12:12 [trackbot]
ACTION-511 -- Larry Masinter to send email framing TAG work on registries -- due 2011-01-20 -- OPEN
18:12:12 [trackbot]
18:12:33 [Yves]
Possible topics for the f2f might include... client-side storage, ietf prague meeting and related issues, persistent domain and Larry's tdb, HTML-XML with Norm Walsh, registries (see action-511), also 10th anniversary of the TAG
18:12:50 [DKA]
How about: deep linking?
18:12:59 [DKA]
zakim, unmute me
18:12:59 [Zakim]
DKA should no longer be muted
18:13:27 [Yves]
jar: time to talk about XXX
18:13:36 [jar]
18:13:46 [Larry]
architecture of the world wide semantic web
18:14:33 [Yves]
DKA: widget and offline applications, trying to unify approaches taken in widget, webapps and HTML5's appcache
18:14:37 [jar]
18:14:37 [trackbot]
ACTION-201 -- Jonathan Rees to report on status of AWWSW discussions -- due 2011-01-25 -- OPEN
18:14:37 [trackbot]
18:15:06 [Yves]
Noah: might be good to have an email discussion to start work on this topic
18:15:15 [Yves]
DKA: also API minimization
18:15:17 [Larry]
TAG products: W3C architecture web site. Meet with W3C staff (Jaffee, others) to talk about TAG products, involvement with WG chartering & architecture
18:15:45 [Larry]
q+ to suggest above on F2F
18:17:11 [Yves]
Noah: same, we need an email to frame discussions
18:17:33 [DKA]
18:17:57 [DKA]
zakim, unmute me
18:17:57 [Zakim]
DKA should no longer be muted
18:18:23 [Yves]
DKA was +1ing meeting with Jeff or Ian
18:19:23 [DKA]
Lunch with Jeff might be a good idea.
18:20:40 [Yves]
Topic: Overdue Action Items
18:20:44 [Zakim]
18:21:29 [Yves]
DKA: a few AI needs to be retired
18:21:33 [noah]
18:21:33 [trackbot]
ACTION-390 -- Daniel Appelquist to review ISSUE-58 and suggest next steps -- due 2010-10-18 -- OPEN
18:21:33 [trackbot]
18:22:24 [noah]
18:22:30 [Yves]
DKA: we need to figure out how to make progress on this issue
18:22:35 [Larry]
18:22:38 [ht]
q+ ht to talk about w3c persistent resources
18:22:38 [Larry]
18:22:55 [Larry]
issue-59 is related to deep linking
18:23:02 [noah]
18:23:07 [noah]
ack next
18:23:33 [noah]
YL: There was a discussion after Wilileaks denial of service. Is this related to such reslience issues?
18:23:41 [noah]
ack next
18:23:41 [Larry]
taking the direction on ISSUE-58 like "deep linking", we could document what we know about the issue and what the considerations are, and write a "best practices" around it
18:23:42 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to talk about w3c persistent resources
18:23:47 [Yves]
DKA: agree that it makes sense
18:23:49 [jar]
... and P2P HTTP
18:24:01 [Larry]
q+ to suggest a "note"
18:24:07 [Larry]
or even a blog post
18:24:42 [Yves]
ht: we can have a slot even a small one on that topic of the f2f, I made an XML Catalog and handed that over to the systeam, need to track progress there.
18:24:57 [noah]
ack next
18:24:58 [Zakim]
Larry, you wanted to suggest a "note"
18:25:00 [noah]
18:25:02 [Yves]
we can ask Ted Guild to join for a few minutes on that topic
18:25:07 [noah]
18:25:09 [noah]
18:25:45 [Yves]
Larry: it is appropriate to do a note, a blog post or something like that to close the action (re: issue-58)
18:26:09 [Yves]
Noah: we don't have consensus yet on the resolution
18:26:18 [Larry]
I think it's possible to document the divergent opinions and note that there isn't consensus, and that doing so is a valuable exercise
18:27:28 [Yves]
DKA: if we can't agree during the f2f on progress there, we should drop it.
18:28:19 [Yves]
Larry: I disagree that we need consensus on solutions to make progress on documenting the problem and possible solutions
18:28:40 [DKA]
I could change the name of the action to "write up a problem statement definition draft" prior to the f2f.
18:29:27 [noah]
18:29:27 [trackbot]
ACTION-439 -- Daniel Appelquist to introduce signature-based approaches to access control -- due 2010-10-14 -- OPEN
18:29:27 [trackbot]
18:29:33 [Yves]
Larry: it's the same issue in "Mime and the Web", not sure about solutions, but it's valuable to outline the issues
18:29:36 [Larry]
+1 DKA if you would do so
18:30:05 [Yves]
DKA: action 439 should be dropped
18:30:08 [noah]
close ACTION-439
18:30:08 [trackbot]
ACTION-439 Introduce signature-based approaches to access control closed
18:30:20 [noah]
18:30:21 [trackbot]
ACTION-461 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft "finding" on Web Apps API design -- due 2010-12-31 -- OPEN
18:30:21 [trackbot]
18:31:14 [noah]
18:31:14 [trackbot]
ACTION-488 -- Daniel Appelquist to solicit at TPAC perspectives on what TAG could/should do on APIs Due: 2010-11-09 -- due 2010-10-28 -- OPEN
18:31:14 [trackbot]
18:31:27 [Yves]
DKA: we should convert this action to a concrete one on API minimization
18:32:10 [Yves]
Noah: if we decide to do a more general finding on web apps API then we should keep this one
18:32:31 [noah]
18:32:33 [Yves]
DKA: After Lyon's meeting, I think that we need to work on smaller issues
18:34:12 [noah]
ACTION: Appelquist to draft finding on API minimization Due: 2011-02-01
18:34:13 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-514 - Draft finding on API minimization Due: 2011-02-01 [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2011-01-27].
18:34:59 [noah]
close ACTION-461
18:34:59 [trackbot]
ACTION-461 Draft "finding" on Web Apps API design closed
18:35:13 [noah]
18:35:13 [trackbot]
ACTION-480 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft overview document framing Web applications as opposed to traditional Web of documents Due: 2010-11-01 -- due 2010-11-09 -- OPEN
18:35:13 [trackbot]
18:35:28 [noah]
ACTION-480 Due 2011-02-01
18:35:28 [trackbot]
ACTION-480 Draft overview document framing Web applications as opposed to traditional Web of documents Due: 2010-11-01 due date now 2011-02-01
18:35:36 [noah]
18:35:36 [trackbot]
ACTION-484 -- Daniel Appelquist to alert chairs, ac-forum, www-tag of TAG availability for Monday session at TPAC -- due 2010-10-27 -- OPEN
18:35:36 [trackbot]
18:35:43 [noah]
close ACTION-484
18:35:43 [trackbot]
ACTION-484 Alert chairs, ac-forum, www-tag of TAG availability for Monday session at TPAC closed
18:35:50 [noah]
18:35:50 [trackbot]
ACTION-488 -- Daniel Appelquist to solicit at TPAC perspectives on what TAG could/should do on APIs Due: 2010-11-09 -- due 2010-10-28 -- OPEN
18:35:50 [trackbot]
18:35:55 [noah]
close ACTION-488
18:35:55 [trackbot]
ACTION-488 Solicit at TPAC perspectives on what TAG could/should do on APIs Due: 2010-11-09 closed
18:36:03 [noah]
18:36:03 [trackbot]
ACTION-489 -- Daniel Appelquist to prepare early draft of TAG thoughts on implications of Evercookie. Due: 2010-12-08 -- due 2010-10-28 -- OPEN
18:36:03 [trackbot]
18:36:31 [noah]
zakim, who is talking?
18:36:42 [Zakim]
noah, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Jonathan_Rees (34%), Ashok (9%), DKA (95%)
18:36:42 [Larry]
i think this is subsumed by privacy actions
18:36:59 [Yves]
DKA: might be linked to action-509, so we should close 489
18:37:16 [Ashok]
zakim, mute me
18:37:16 [Zakim]
Ashok should now be muted
18:37:44 [Yves]
Larry: the problems that evercookie explore are not covered by web architecture
18:37:53 [Yves]
like cleaning local storage for cookies
18:39:00 [Yves]
Noah: how about client-side storage work from Ashok?
18:39:03 [Ashok]
zakim, unmute me
18:39:03 [Zakim]
Ashok should no longer be muted
18:39:43 [noah]
NM: Evercookie is client-side storage
18:39:47 [Yves]
Larry: it's not explicit client-side storage, as it uses fingerprinting
18:40:34 [Yves]
Larry: we need to make sure that client-side storage work mention evercookie
18:40:47 [noah]
18:40:47 [trackbot]
ACTION-475 -- Ashok Malhotra to write finding on client-side storage, DanA to review -- due 2011-03-21 -- OPEN
18:40:47 [trackbot]
18:41:23 [Yves]
Ashok's action amended to reflect that
18:41:35 [noah]
close ACTION-489?
18:41:54 [noah]
close ACTION-489
18:41:54 [trackbot]
ACTION-489 Prepare early draft of TAG thoughts on implications of Evercookie. Due: 2010-12-08 closed
18:42:04 [noah]
close ACTION-495
18:42:04 [trackbot]
ACTION-495 Organize something with Geo for Friday morning. closed
18:42:16 [noah]
18:42:16 [trackbot]
ACTION-505 -- Daniel Appelquist to start a document wrt issue-25 -- due 2010-12-09 -- OPEN
18:42:16 [trackbot]
18:42:30 [noah]
18:42:30 [trackbot]
ISSUE-25 -- What to say in defense of principle that deep linking is not an illegal act? -- open
18:42:30 [trackbot]
18:42:37 [Yves]
DKA: document started, quite empty for now
18:42:53 [Yves]
need to start an email discussion on what we should put there
18:43:01 [DKA]
18:43:22 [Yves]
Noah: how about bumping the due date and have an action to start discussion?
18:43:36 [noah]
ACTION-505 Due 2011-01-25
18:43:36 [trackbot]
ACTION-505 Start a document wrt issue-25 due date now 2011-01-25
18:43:55 [noah]
18:43:55 [trackbot]
ACTION-507 -- Daniel Appelquist to with Noah to suggest next steps for TAG on privacy -- due 2011-01-19 -- OPEN
18:43:55 [trackbot]
18:44:03 [Zakim]
18:44:35 [Yves]
Noah: should we discuss this at the f2f?
18:45:01 [Yves]
DKA: bump the due date after the f2f
18:45:12 [noah]
ACTION-507 Due 2011-03-01
18:45:12 [trackbot]
ACTION-507 With Noah to suggest next steps for TAG on privacy due date now 2011-03-01
18:45:38 [Yves]
Topic: Web Application State
18:46:12 [Yves]
everybody read this week or last week's version of the document
18:46:21 [Yves]
18:46:43 [Yves]
Ashok: I will work on Yves' comment on the next version of the document.
18:46:53 [Zakim]
18:46:55 [Yves]
Ashok: We need to work on what we want to recommend
18:47:38 [Yves]
Ashok: actually paragraphs 4 and 5
18:47:52 [Yves]
18:48:30 [Yves]
Noah: it would be great to discuss the pro and cons of the two main solutions
18:49:11 [Yves]
Ashok: when I asked why they were using one solution r the other, I got back "it's how they did it" as a reply
18:49:55 [Yves]
Noah: we might change the title of the document as mentionning the hash sigh seems like implementation detail
18:50:36 [Yves]
Larry: wondering if we are looking at this through the right side of the telescope. We need to say "how do you design an app that will use URIs in a meaningful way"
18:51:02 [Yves]
from the point of view, not of the user, but of the implementer.
18:51:14 [johnk]
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18:51:19 [Yves]
Noah: in agreement
18:51:42 [ht]
q+ to try to uplevel even further
18:52:29 [Yves]
Noah: things like being able to email an URI that will convey the right meaning in the context of email and not the JS program
18:53:13 [Yves]
The document should answer questions like when to use # sign or ?
18:53:41 [Yves]
Larry: as a user you don't have the choice, it's the app designer who make this decision
18:53:52 [noah]
ack next
18:53:57 [noah]
ack next
18:54:00 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to try to uplevel even further
18:55:43 [Ashok]
18:55:56 [Yves]
ht: we might go even higher up. People are building application for web brwosers to have apps on the desktop. The crucial bit of advice is about choosing uri for wide use. But it's also possible to have names that are not used for wide distributon
18:55:58 [noah]
HT: Not all of these names are meant for wide use
18:55:59 [noah]
Google maps names >are< intended for wide use
18:56:14 [noah]
q+ to say I want to emphasize names that are meant for wide use
18:56:21 [Yves]
ht: ex, in emacs, my message number are local only
18:56:52 [johnk]
18:57:04 [Yves]
ht: the fact that web software make easy to create uris for that is generating the issue, like using numbering that is not meant for broadcast
18:57:05 [noah]
ack next
18:57:39 [johnk]
q+ to wonder whether we should include the usage of # to hide metadata from the Referer usage in this document?
18:57:45 [noah]
YL: Responding to Larry's point on talking to designers. My note talked in part about implementation details such as ability to push something into a CDN because you used #, has an impact.
18:58:06 [noah]
YL: I agree we need high level views, but implementation details are important too
18:58:09 [noah]
ack next
18:58:55 [Yves]
Ashok: I have a paragraph related to the CNN use case where they create private URIs
18:59:04 [noah]
ack next
18:59:05 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to say I want to emphasize names that are meant for wide use
19:00:02 [Ashok]
19:01:26 [Ashok]
Noah: yes, some states/URIs are private but sometimes these are used in other contexts ... so be careful
19:01:29 [Yves]
Noah: while application can have pprivate state changes, it may be an issue that apps are choosing private URIs for things that needs a wider audience, like email identifier
19:01:38 [noah]
ack next
19:01:40 [Zakim]
johnk, you wanted to wonder whether we should include the usage of # to hide metadata from the Referer usage in this document?
19:02:24 [johnk]
19:02:26 [Yves]
john: value before the # can be used for ACL and value after the # can be used locallly as not sent to the server
19:03:10 [johnk]
example URI: <>
19:04:24 [Yves]
Noah: Ashok, will you rearrange all the architectural questions? (general ones and ones under the CNN example)
19:04:52 [Yves]
Ashok: will work on that
19:05:02 [Ashok]
I agree
19:05:11 [Yves]
Noah: between sections 3 and 4 would be ideal
19:06:31 [Yves]
Ashok: I will write (at worst possible changes, if not all changes) before the f2f
19:06:40 [Ashok]
Yves, comments most welcome
19:07:19 [noah]
ACTION-481 Due 2011-03-01
19:07:20 [trackbot]
ACTION-481 Update client-side state document with help from Raman due date now 2011-03-01
19:07:30 [noah]
ack next
19:08:35 [ht]
q+ to disagree with Yves!
19:08:42 [noah]
YL: If you're using # for video addressing, you're implying the secondary is part of the primary
19:09:02 [noah]
Doesn't that actually depend on the media type registration for the video type?
19:09:16 [ht] is _intimately_ related to !
19:09:41 [noah]
ack next
19:09:42 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to disagree with Yves!
19:09:53 [Yves]
Ashok: I mentionned issues with relations to byte ranges as well
19:10:23 [ht]
YL: In the case of ?, the with-parameter version has nothing to do with the w/o the parameter version
19:10:29 [noah]
HT: Did you mean that in the ? mark case the resources have nothing to do with each other?
19:10:32 [noah]
YL: Yes
19:12:09 [Yves]
ht: there is a difference between being 'by the book' not related and the reality, like"> and
19:12:24 [Yves]
Larry: what would be the relation there?
19:12:39 [Yves]
ht: it identify a parameter fonction
19:13:14 [Yves]
Larry: which things are generic to URIs and which things are http-related?
19:13:27 [noah]
So{GUID} is bad practice? I don't believe that.
19:13:52 [noah]
The point of this example is that GUID1 and GUID2 might denote quite unrelated resources.
19:14:05 [johnk]
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19:14:23 [Larry]
does this apply only to "http:" or to all URIs?
19:15:03 [Larry]
there is a relationship between scheme://host/path and scheme://host/path?query in that the query can be created by a form with scheme://host/path as the target
19:15:04 [ht]
As far as I am concerned, I thought the http spec. _did_ enforce that foo.html?a=b and foo.html?c=d and foo.html all are handled by the same 'resource'. . .
19:15:16 [Yves]
noah: my concern is that using '#' sign is not a indication that it's a part of the resource without the '#' sign
19:15:37 [Zakim]
19:15:53 [noah]
ack next
19:16:34 [Larry]
note that mime-web-info talks about defining fragment identifiers....
19:16:34 [noah]
YL: My comment was on the media fragments, and in that specific case there are some loose ends on media type registration
19:16:44 [noah]
19:17:09 [noah]
19:17:18 [Yves]
Topic: overdue action
19:17:23 [noah]
19:17:23 [trackbot]
ACTION-381 -- Jonathan Rees to spend 2 hours helping Ian with -- due 2011-01-17 -- OPEN
19:17:23 [trackbot]
19:18:46 [noah]
ACTION-381 Due 2011-02-11
19:18:46 [trackbot]
ACTION-381 Spend 2 hours helping Ian with due date now 2011-02-11
19:19:08 [Yves]
Noah: let's put that on the best-effort list
19:19:09 [noah]
19:19:09 [trackbot]
ACTION-390 -- Daniel Appelquist to review ISSUE-58 and suggest next steps -- due 2010-10-18 -- OPEN
19:19:09 [trackbot]
19:20:19 [noah]
Yves will contribute on ACTION-390
19:20:33 [noah]
ACTION-390 Due 2011-03-01
19:20:33 [trackbot]
ACTION-390 Review ISSUE-58 and suggest next steps due date now 2011-03-01
19:20:58 [Yves]
Topic: AOB?
19:20:59 [Yves]
19:21:01 [Yves]
19:21:11 [Zakim]
19:21:34 [Zakim]
19:21:38 [Zakim]
19:21:40 [Zakim]
19:21:41 [Zakim]
19:21:44 [Zakim]
19:21:46 [Zakim]
19:21:47 [Ashok]
rrsagent, make logs public
19:21:47 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
19:21:49 [Zakim]
Attendees were Jonathan_Rees, Masinter, +1.845.270.aaaa, Noah_Mendelsohn, Ashok, DKA, Yves, ht, John_Kemp
19:21:59 [Ashok]
rrsagent, pointer?
19:21:59 [RRSAgent]
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