14:50:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lld
14:50:34 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-lld-irc
14:50:43 <emma> zakim, this will be LLD
14:50:43 <Zakim> ok, emma; I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
14:53:12 <emma> rrsagent, please make record public
14:54:19 <emma> Meeting: LLD XG
14:54:29 <emma> Chair: Emmanuelle
14:54:38 <TomB> TomB has joined #lld
14:54:42 <emma> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Jan/0104.html
14:55:06 <emma> Previous: 2011-01-13 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/01/13-lld-minutes.html
14:55:46 <emma> Regrets: Ray, Jodi, Monica, Uldis, Kai, William, Lars, Ross
14:56:20 <emma> rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:56:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-lld-minutes.html emma
14:56:43 <emma> rrsagent, please make record public*
14:56:44 <GordonD> GordonD has joined #lld
14:56:53 <emma> rrsagent, please make record public
14:57:37 <Zakim> INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has now started
14:57:43 <antoine> antoine has joined #lld
14:57:44 <Zakim> +??P8
14:57:49 <Zakim> +michaelp
14:57:51 <TomB> zakim, ??P8 is TomB
14:57:51 <Zakim> +TomB; got it
14:57:56 <AlexanderH> AlexanderH has joined #lld
14:57:59 <jeff_> zakim, michaelp is me
14:57:59 <Zakim> +jeff_; got it
14:58:15 <Zakim> +??P10
14:58:22 <antoine> zakim, ??P10 is me
14:58:22 <Zakim> +antoine; got it
14:58:27 <Zakim> +emma
14:58:41 <markva> markva has joined #lld
14:58:53 <Zakim> +[LC]
14:58:57 <michaelp> michaelp has joined #lld
14:59:04 <antoine> rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:59:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-lld-minutes.html antoine
14:59:08 <Zakim> +??P17
14:59:10 <antoine> zakim, LC is kefo
14:59:10 <Zakim> +kefo; got it
14:59:17 <Zakim> +??P13
14:59:21 <antoine> zakim, ??P17 is kcoyle
14:59:21 <Zakim> +kcoyle; got it
14:59:24 <kosuke> kosuke has joined #lld
14:59:30 <antoine> zakim, ??P13 is AlexanderH
14:59:30 <Zakim> +AlexanderH; got it
14:59:39 <kefo> kefo has joined #lld
14:59:44 <jeff_> zakim, mute me
14:59:44 <Zakim> jeff_ should now be muted
14:59:52 <Zakim> +jeff_.a
14:59:54 <kefo> zakim, LC is me
14:59:54 <Zakim> sorry, kefo, I do not recognize a party named 'LC'
14:59:57 <Zakim> +markva
15:00:04 <marcia> marcia has joined #lld
15:00:26 <kefo> zakim, mute me
15:00:26 <Zakim> kefo should now be muted
15:00:32 <Zakim> +??P25
15:00:45 <antoine> zakim, ??P25 is GordonD
15:00:45 <Zakim> +GordonD; got it
15:00:52 <antoine> zakim, who is here?
15:00:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see TomB, jeff_ (muted), antoine, emma, kefo (muted), kcoyle, AlexanderH, michaelp (muted), markva (muted), GordonD
15:00:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see marcia, kefo, kosuke, michaelp, markva, AlexanderH, antoine, GordonD, TomB, RRSAgent, Zakim, kcoyle, emma, jeff_, uldis, edsu, digikim
15:01:51 <antoine> zakim, pick a victim
15:01:51 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose AlexanderH
15:01:58 <antoine> :-)
15:02:05 <antoine> zakim, pick a victim
15:02:05 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose michaelp (muted)
15:02:15 <Zakim> +marcia
15:02:20 <Zakim> +jneubert
15:02:48 <jneubert> jneubert has joined #lld
15:02:50 <marcia> zakim, mute me
15:02:50 <Zakim> marcia should now be muted
15:03:09 <emma> Scribe: Michael
15:03:23 <emma> scribenick: michaelp
15:03:43 <Asaf> Asaf has joined #lld
15:04:02 <michaelp> Topic: Admin
15:04:08 <Zakim> +??P35
15:04:15 <Asaf> ??P35 is me
15:04:23 <antoine> zakim, ???P35 is Asaf
15:04:23 <Zakim> sorry, antoine, I do not recognize a party named '???P35'
15:04:28 <michaelp> Emma: Acceptance of minutes of previous telecon.
15:04:31 <antoine> zakim, ??P35 is Asaf
15:04:31 <Zakim> +Asaf; got it
15:04:34 <michaelp> ... Objections?
15:04:47 <michaelp> ... Munites accepted.
15:04:56 <michaelp> s/Munites/Minutes
15:04:56 <antoine> s/Munites/Minutes
15:05:14 <michaelp> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/01/13-lld-minutes.html
15:05:18 <michaelp> --RESOLVED
15:05:45 <michaelp> RESOLVED: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/01/13-lld-minutes.html
15:06:05 <michaelp> Emma: Special conference for people from Asia timezones
15:07:06 <Zakim> +[LC]
15:07:09 <edsu> zakim, LC is edsu
15:07:09 <Zakim> +edsu; got it
15:07:22 <michaelp> TomB: Problems with audio, timezones. Schedule extra teleconference that is well-scribed.
15:07:39 <michaelp> Scribenick: michaelp
15:07:51 <michaelp> Scribe: michaelp
15:08:35 <kcoyle> what time would work?
15:08:42 <michaelp> TomB: We have to make sure that UC of this group are not rejected just because of time zones and geography.
15:09:52 <Zakim> +??P45
15:10:00 <digikim> Zakim, P45 is digikim.
15:10:00 <Zakim> sorry, digikim, I do not recognize a party named 'P45'
15:10:05 <digikim> Zakim, ??P45 is digikim.
15:10:05 <Zakim> +digikim; got it
15:10:06 <antoine> zakim, ??P45 is digikim
15:10:06 <Zakim> I already had ??P45 as digikim, antoine
15:10:18 <michaelp> ... We will figure out a time.
15:10:42 <michaelp> Topic: USE CASE CLUSTERS
15:10:52 <michaelp> Topic: CLUSTER Bibliographic data: curators Gordon, Martin
15:10:52 <michaelp>     http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Cluster_BibData
15:11:17 <michaelp> GordonD: Cluster is pretty well finished.
15:11:50 <michaelp> ... We added an extra UC on migration of legacy library data. That may add some extra work, however.
15:12:30 <michaelp> ... Question?
15:12:40 <michaelp> s/Question/Questions
15:12:52 <michaelp> Emma: Could you highlight main issues?
15:13:16 <Asaf> Question: Do we expect any impact by this group's work on the work of the FR* and RDA groups?
15:13:29 <michaelp> GordonD: Two main issues. Firstly, unit of processing is bibliographic record in library environment.
15:13:51 <michaelp> ... Every attribute in a record requires change for local use.
15:14:20 <Asaf> s/attribute/change in an attribute
15:14:21 <michaelp> ... Causes duplicated data, which is problematic for triple migration.
15:14:31 <michaelp> ... Creates identical triples.
15:14:42 <Asaf> s/change for/duplication of the entire record for
15:15:06 <TomB> q+ to ask about levels between statement and record, e.g., WEMI
15:15:26 <michaelp> ... But main issue is still shift from record to triples.
15:16:08 <Asaf> GordonD: Thanks!  That's very encouraging!
15:16:21 <michaelp> ... The UC clustering has been valuable with regards to the FR* and RDA groups.
15:16:23 <emma> ack Tom
15:16:23 <Zakim> TomB, you wanted to ask about levels between statement and record, e.g., WEMI
15:16:26 <antoine> q+ to ask about record issue in "problem and limitations"
15:17:07 <michaelp> TomB: What about intermediate levels between records and statements, like aggregations like FRBR entities?
15:17:45 <michaelp> GordonD: Records is aggregation of statements, whether work, expression, ..., records.
15:18:16 <michaelp> ... Traditionally, we have been looking at aggregations. LLD challenges this assumptions by looking at statements on their own.
15:18:19 <emma> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Granularity_of_library_metadata
15:19:28 <michaelp> ... Granularity is not downwards from single resource, but goes up from aggregations, etc., themselves.
15:20:24 <michaelp> ... Aggregations like collections, series. Levels of granularity of these is often mixed up by libraries.
15:20:28 <emma> ack ant
15:20:28 <Zakim> antoine, you wanted to ask about record issue in "problem and limitations"
15:21:00 <michaelp> Antoine: Granularity important issue for data conversion.
15:21:22 <michaelp> ... We should but reference to this from cluster page.
15:22:25 <michaelp> ... Other issue: Relevant technologies. Case about de-duplication. Single case or are there more like this?
15:22:43 <michaelp> GordonD: This came up in more than this UC.
15:23:25 <jeff_> q+ to consider owl sameAs as a factor in granularity
15:23:37 <emma> ack jeff
15:23:38 <Zakim> jeff_, you wanted to consider owl sameAs as a factor in granularity
15:24:03 <michaelp> Jeff: owl:sameAs and levels of granularity.
15:24:29 <michaelp> ... It would be nice to pull resources together, but this issue makes it difficult.
15:25:00 <michaelp> ... We have numbers of documents that contain triples. It is useful to be able to relate those without lining raw triples.
15:25:13 <michaelp> s/lining/linking
15:25:40 <michaelp> ... Information can be spread across multiple records, but refer to the same thing.
15:26:25 <michaelp> ... It would be nice if triples could be pulled together into a unified record.
15:26:36 <michaelp> GordonD: I see a number of problems.
15:27:07 <michaelp> ... We shift focus to the triple, then we build aggregations of triples that suit the needs of an organization.
15:28:15 <michaelp> ... This gives us a great deal of flexibility in rebuilding records.
15:28:17 <TomB> Gordon: we shift attn to triple, then build up aggregations.  So if you want MARC-like view, you have an application profile - what attributes need to be part of the profile? Flexibility in building records - my last slide in presentn on "disintegration of the record".
15:28:18 <marcia> q+
15:28:38 <michaelp> ... The same triple can appear in many different "record" structures.
15:28:43 <jeff_> zakim, mute me
15:28:43 <Zakim> jeff_ should now be muted
15:29:07 <kcoyle> :-)
15:29:34 <michaelp> ... Aggregations can produce conflicts as they are built at will.
15:29:54 <michaelp> ... Conflicting statements, missing data.
15:30:06 <emma> ack marcia
15:30:10 <michaelp> ... because missing or present owl:sameAs
15:30:35 <michaelp> s/because/because of/
15:30:57 <michaelp> marcia: We have a project where multiple databases have to be aggregated.
15:31:37 <michaelp> ... People have more then one option in terms of vocab selection.
15:31:46 <TomB> Is Gordon referring to http://gordondunsire.com/pubs/pres/EvolCatRec.ppt (for "disintegration of the record")?
15:32:11 <michaelp> ... Individual statements become the elements.
15:32:55 <jeff_> OWL provides mechanisms for reconciling equivalent/sub classes across vocabularies.
15:33:43 <michaelp> GordonD: Mapping of properties will become feature of specific namespaces (vocabs)
15:34:11 <TomB> Gordon: Developing environment will have FRBR, ISBD, and RDA elements in parallel - people will have a choice which to use.  Mappings need to be part of those namespaces.  Who does the mapping?  If that isn't done, we have a third layer of complexity - subjects may have URIs but are sameAs - same with predicates and objects.
15:35:04 <michaelp> ... If namespaces are semantically linked, it gives users free choice which to ise.
15:35:09 <michaelp> s/ise/use.
15:35:57 <TomB> ...Application Profiles are important because they specify which namespace elements taken from.  Concern about unresolved debate about APs versus OWL.
15:36:00 <michaelp> ... The profile will say which namespace the element is taken from, but there is the unresolved debate in terms of DC application profiles and their relationship to OWL.
15:36:16 <marcia> Zakim, mute me
15:36:16 <Zakim> marcia should now be muted
15:37:03 <Zakim> -jeff_
15:37:21 <michaelp> CTION: Gordon and Martin to curate bibliographic data cluster for end of December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action05]
15:37:26 <michaelp> -- continues
15:37:31 <antoine> s/CTION/ACTION
15:37:39 <Zakim> +michaelp.a
15:37:44 <michaelp> ACTION: Gordon and Martin to curate bibliographic data cluster for end of December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action05]
15:37:46 <jeff_> zakim, michaelp.a is me
15:37:46 <Zakim> +jeff_; got it
15:37:51 <michaelp> --continues
15:38:47 <michaelp> ACTION: Gordon and Martin to curate bibliographic data cluster for end of December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action05]
15:38:54 <michaelp> --continues
15:39:51 <michaelp> Trying to find the Action, sorry
15:40:05 <michaelp> ACTION: Gordon and Ross to review use cases in light of migration of legacy data [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-lld-minutes.html#action01]
15:40:07 <michaelp> --done
15:40:41 <GordonD> Tom, yes
15:41:20 <emma> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_Migrating_Library_Legacy_Data
15:42:10 <michaelp> emma: I wanted to mention the new social uses cluster.
15:42:20 <michaelp> ... They will have a call for UCs.
15:42:59 <michaelp> TOPIC: PAGES RELATED TO USE CASES
15:43:14 <michaelp> TOPIC: -- Terminology: "value vocabulary; metadata element set, and dataset"
15:43:14 <michaelp>    http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/Library_terminology_informally_explained#Vocabularies.2C_Element_sets.2C_Datasets
15:43:25 <markva> zakim, unute me
15:43:25 <Zakim> I don't understand 'unute me', markva
15:43:29 <emma> ack markva
15:43:36 <michaelp> Emma: Mark, would you like to report?
15:44:01 <michaelp> markva: Feedback on mailing list was good.
15:44:07 <michaelp> ... We are on a good path.
15:44:09 <antoine> +1
15:44:44 <Asaf> Dispersing some of the fog around the terminology was very, very important.  It would be very important for the readers of our final report, too.  Mark++!
15:44:51 <markva> :-)
15:44:57 <michaelp> ACTION: Mark and Emmanuelle to clean definition of value vocabulary and use of attribute [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/01/06-lld-minutes.html#action02]
15:44:57 <michaelp>  --> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/Library_terminology_informally_explained#Vocabularies.2C_Element_sets.2C_Datasets
15:45:02 <michaelp> --done
15:45:52 <markva> zakim, mute me
15:45:52 <Zakim> markva should now be muted
15:45:57 <antoine> I think almost everyone in the XG participated that discussion :-)
15:46:37 <michaelp> ACTION: Alex, Jeff, Martin, MichaelP elaborate on general purpose IT architecture for dealing with linked data with caching feature (short sketch for final report) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action04]
15:46:41 <michaelp> --continues
15:46:44 <Asaf> antoine: sure!  I commended Mark for undertaking to synthesize and process all the input.
15:46:46 <jeff_> zakim, unmute me
15:46:46 <Zakim> jeff_ was not muted, jeff_
15:47:00 <jeff_> zakim, mute me
15:47:00 <Zakim> jeff_ should now be muted
15:47:23 <antoine> http://ckan.net/group/lld -> good progress there!
15:47:23 <michaelp> ACTION: Volunteers to send login information (openid credentials) to William Waite to curate LLD group on CKAN [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-minutes.html#action04]
15:47:29 <michaelp> --continues
15:47:49 <michaelp> ACTION: Everyone to update the Events page (http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/LLD/Events) on the wiki regularly [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action05]
15:47:55 <michaelp> --continues
15:48:03 <michaelp> Emma: Don't forget to add to that page.
15:48:52 <antoine> http://www.w3.org/Submission/CBD/
15:49:22 <michaelp> Antoine: I just wanted to mention the issue of bounding statements for releasing linked data.
15:50:04 <kcoyle> interesting
15:50:09 <markva> q+
15:50:12 <michaelp> ... Goal is to create an "optimal unit of specific knowledge about that resource to be utilized"
15:50:17 <edsu> antoine: thanks, hadn't seen that before
15:50:19 <emma> ack mark
15:50:47 <michaelp> Mark: I know about that spec. I used it in WordNet release.
15:51:20 <michaelp> ... CBD connects statements about a topic, skipping blank nodes.
15:51:39 <michaelp> s/topic/subject
15:51:48 <jeff_> q+ SKOS/foaf:focus could help with record bounding
15:52:02 <michaelp> ... Triples that have the same URI as subject. Very simple and algorithmic,.
15:52:07 <Asaf> This was mentioned (without knowing about CBD) in our mailing list discussion, right?
15:52:09 <michaelp> s/,./.
15:52:13 <jeff_> q+ SKOS/foaf:focus and "records"
15:52:52 <michaelp> edsu: Will that increase traffic to do something useful with the data?
15:53:24 <michaelp> ... More roundtrips required to resolve other connected URIs.
15:53:40 <michaelp> markva: Depends on the application and your goals.
15:53:52 <michaelp> edsu: Human readable display, for example.
15:54:09 <michaelp> ... You would have to do a number of further lookups.
15:54:22 <michaelp> q+
15:54:49 <jeff_> zakim, unmute me
15:54:49 <Zakim> jeff_ should no longer be muted
15:54:50 <emma> ack jeff
15:54:57 <michaelp> markva: In WordNet case, you don't want to get the whole thing.
15:55:36 <michaelp> Jeff: GordonD was talking about synchronizing info from different sources. There is a UC for foaf:focus and SKOS.
15:56:12 <michaelp> ... Even if you do the inferencing on the real world object, foaf: focus would help to trace back the origin of these statements.
15:56:47 <emma> ack micha
15:56:54 <emma> ack sk
15:57:17 <antoine> Michaelp: perhaps this is a provenance issue
15:57:25 <antoine> ... how you keep stuff together
15:57:43 <jeff_> zakim, mute m
15:57:43 <Zakim> 'm' is ambiguous, jeff_
15:57:48 <jeff_> zakim, mute me
15:57:48 <Zakim> jeff_ should now be muted
15:58:00 <antoine> ... How much data you send back is a very interesting engineering issue
15:58:20 <antoine> ... It somehow dilutes the identifier
15:58:42 <antoine> ... it may suddenly become much more when you get more info for it than what you'd expect
15:59:06 <antoine> Emma: there are lots of ways to define what is useful for a URI
15:59:11 <edsu> "useful" is usefully vague imho :-)
15:59:20 <antoine> Michaelp: that relates to SPARQL DESCRIBE
15:59:50 <antoine> ... It may become really complex if you have a bunch of unconnected identifiers
16:00:04 <Asaf> edsu++
16:00:13 <marcia> good discussions! 
16:00:19 <Asaf> bye everyone!
16:00:19 <Zakim> -edsu
16:00:23 <Zakim> -kefo
16:00:23 <markva> bye!
16:00:23 <antoine> zakim, please list attendees
16:00:24 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been TomB, jeff_, antoine, emma, kefo, kcoyle, AlexanderH, markva, michaelp, GordonD, marcia, jneubert, Asaf, edsu, digikim
16:00:26 <emma> rrsagent please draft minutes
16:00:27 <Zakim> -kcoyle
16:00:27 <Zakim> -GordonD
16:00:29 <Zakim> -Asaf
16:00:31 <Zakim> -jeff_
16:00:33 <Zakim> -markva
16:00:35 <Zakim> -AlexanderH
16:00:37 <Zakim> -digikim
16:00:40 <Zakim> -jneubert
16:00:55 <Zakim> -marcia
16:01:01 <emma> rrsagent please draft minutes
16:01:19 <emma> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:01:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-lld-minutes.html emma
16:03:43 <Zakim> -emma
16:03:46 <Zakim> -TomB
16:03:48 <Zakim> -michaelp
16:03:48 <Zakim> INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has ended
16:03:49 <Zakim> Attendees were TomB, jeff_, antoine, emma, kefo, kcoyle, AlexanderH, markva, michaelp, GordonD, marcia, jneubert, Asaf, edsu, digikim
16:04:02 <emma> zakim, bye
16:04:02 <Zakim> Zakim has left #lld
16:04:14 <emma> rrsagent, bye
16:04:14 <RRSAgent> I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-lld-actions.rdf :
16:04:14 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Gordon and Martin to curate bibliographic data cluster for end of December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action05] [1]
16:04:14 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-lld-irc#T15-37-44
16:04:14 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Gordon and Martin to curate bibliographic data cluster for end of December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action05] [2]
16:04:14 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-lld-irc#T15-38-47
16:04:14 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Gordon and Ross to review use cases in light of migration of legacy data [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-lld-minutes.html#action01] [3]
16:04:14 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-lld-irc#T15-40-05
16:04:14 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark and Emmanuelle to clean definition of value vocabulary and use of attribute [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/01/06-lld-minutes.html#action02] [4]
16:04:14 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-lld-irc#T15-44-57
16:04:14 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Alex, Jeff, Martin, MichaelP elaborate on general purpose IT architecture for dealing with linked data with caching feature (short sketch for final report) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action04] [5]
16:04:14 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-lld-irc#T15-46-37
16:04:14 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Volunteers to send login information (openid credentials) to William Waite to curate LLD group on CKAN [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-minutes.html#action04] [6]
16:04:14 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-lld-irc#T15-47-23-1
16:04:14 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Everyone to update the Events page (http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/LLD/Events) on the wiki regularly [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action05] [7]
16:04:14 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-lld-irc#T15-47-49