15:01:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
15:01:09 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/19-i18n-irc
15:01:24 <aphillip> zakim, this is I18N_WG
15:01:41 <David> will be with you properly in 5 minutes.
15:01:43 <aphillip> RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
15:01:51 <aphillip> Meeting: Internationalization Teleconference
15:01:58 <aphillip> Chair: Addison Phillips
15:02:05 <aphillip> Scribe: Addison Phillips
15:02:08 <aphillip> ScribeNick: aphillip
15:02:28 <aphillip> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2011Jan/0004.html
15:02:37 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #i18n
15:02:39 <r12a-mac> zakim, dial richard
15:02:39 <Zakim> sorry, r12a-mac, I don't know what conference this is
15:02:44 <aphillip> zakim, this is I18N
15:02:44 <Zakim> ok, aphillip; that matches I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM
15:03:01 <r12a-mac> zakim, dial richard
15:03:01 <Zakim> ok, r12a-mac; the call is being made
15:03:02 <Zakim> +Richard
15:03:09 <Zakim> +Addison_Phillips
15:03:10 <Zakim> +??P22
15:03:38 <Zakim> +??P25
15:03:38 <aharon> zakim, i am aharon
15:03:40 <Zakim> ok, aharon, I now associate you with aharon
15:03:58 <Norbert> Norbert has joined #i18n
15:04:17 <Zakim> +David
15:04:26 <aharon> zakim, mute me
15:04:26 <Zakim> aharon should now be muted
15:04:42 <aphillip> zakim, ??P25 is kennyluck
15:04:42 <Zakim> +kennyluck; got it
15:05:04 <Zakim> +??P4
15:05:06 <aphillip> Topic: Minutes and Agenda review
15:05:44 <aphillip> Topic: Action Items
15:05:55 <aharon> zakim, unmute me
15:05:55 <Zakim> aharon should no longer be muted
15:06:25 <kennyluck> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/3
15:06:32 <aphillip> kenny: sent email responding on issue 3
15:06:53 <aphillip> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2011JanMar/0004.html
15:08:50 <aphillip> aharon: text-align on option
15:09:05 <aphillip> ... check with CSS on what it does/should/can do on that
15:09:19 <aphillip> gwyneth: also followed up
15:09:56 <aphillip> aharon: sent out note, but just a few minutes ago
15:10:29 <aphillip> aharon: second action was clarify use cases of form value direction remembering
15:10:38 <aphillip> ... will get to it this coming week
15:10:49 <aphillip> Topic: Info Share
15:10:52 <aharon> zakim, mute me
15:10:52 <Zakim> aharon should now be muted
15:11:29 <David> zakim, mute me
15:11:29 <Zakim> David should now be muted
15:11:32 <aphillip> richard has no info to share
15:11:59 <aphillip> Topic: Wrapping up on Bidi
15:12:18 <aphillip> text-align on option
15:12:29 <aharon> zakim, unmute me
15:12:29 <Zakim> aharon should no longer be muted
15:12:30 <aphillip> gwyneth: talked to sylvan
15:12:34 <r12a-mac> quite hard to hear gwyneth
15:12:40 <aphillip> ... direction is currently undefined on option
15:12:50 <aphillip> ... not sure what we can do without opening proverbial can of worms
15:13:30 <kennyluck> +1 bidi is mentioned again and again in CSS, but it's still enough
15:13:31 <aphillip> aharon: there is a blanket statement in html5 about native controls
15:13:38 <kennyluck> s/still/still not/
15:13:54 <aphillip> ... that they must follow directionality of elements
15:14:20 <aphillip> ... so selects must display according to dir
15:14:59 <aphillip> aharon: not sure if native control type of behavior in this case should be controlled by CSS
15:15:02 <kennyluck> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jan/0354 Aharon's mail about text-align and <option>
15:15:48 <aphillip> revisit next week
15:17:05 <aphillip> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2010Dec/0015.html
15:17:24 <aphillip> Bug 10810 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10810>
15:17:36 <aphillip> LS and PS be dealt with correctly
15:17:55 <aphillip> aharon: rejected because html doesn't know anything about textarea and pre
15:18:05 <aphillip> ... actually CSS issue
15:18:11 <aphillip> ... used to be a statement in html spec
15:18:18 <aphillip> ... about whitespace folding
15:18:28 <aphillip> ... LS and PS were not considered whitespace
15:18:40 <aphillip> aharon: but that statement is gone
15:18:49 <aphillip> ... html doesn't know anything about character semantics
15:19:12 <aphillip> aharon: CSS doesn't say that LS/PS are not supported
15:19:31 <aphillip> ... so maybe Unicode should be followed? so every browser has a bug in it as a result
15:19:51 <aphillip> ... fantasai added tests to textarea and pre
15:19:56 <aphillip> ... although test has a bug
15:20:29 <aphillip> Bug 10811 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10811>
15:20:44 <aphillip> same issue, but in script dialog text
15:20:55 <aphillip> aharon: rejected, same as above
15:21:24 <aphillip> Bug 10814 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10814>
15:21:38 <aphillip> Proposes that display:block elements, except those taken out of       document flow with CSS such as float or position:absolute, should be       specified as introducing a UBA paragraph break between the content preceding
15:21:53 <aphillip> and following
15:22:26 <aphillip> aharon: so a div inside a div, the two should be isolated
15:22:37 <aphillip> ... rejected because it's in the purview of CSS
15:22:56 <aphillip> ... html spec doesn't say that block elements form paragraphs or anything like that
15:23:09 <aphillip> ... and html has no concept of inline or block elements any more
15:23:14 <aphillip> ... so can't do anything here
15:23:29 <aphillip> ... what we want *is* specified in CSS 2.1
15:23:39 <aphillip> ... and Mozilla and Opera not doing it is a bug
15:23:45 <kennyluck> +q
15:24:00 <aphillip> ack kennyluck
15:24:22 <aphillip> kennyluck: that's because mozilla didn't support user-agent stylesheet with bidi properties
15:25:20 <kennyluck> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/rendering.html#rendering
15:25:34 <aphillip> ... link mentions default stylesheet
15:25:42 <aphillip> ... so this is a suggestion
15:25:46 <aphillip> ... to user-agents
15:26:14 <aphillip> ...so maybe make the bidi styles a *requirement*
15:26:19 <aphillip> ... and have it be separate
15:26:30 <aphillip> ... many styles above are not essential
15:26:34 <aphillip> ... but some, like bidi, are
15:27:08 <aphillip> aharon: that makes sense to me
15:27:22 <aphillip> ... didn't realize that stylesheet was non-normative
15:27:36 <aphillip> .... also state in human-readable text what the thing is specifying
15:28:52 <kennyluck> [[12 Rendering
15:28:53 <kennyluck> User agents are not required to present HTML documents in any particular way. However, this section provides a set of suggestions for rendering HTML documents that, if followed, are likely to lead to a user experience that closely resembles the experience intended by the documents' authors. So as to avoid confusion regarding the normativity of this section, RFC2119 terms have not been used. Instead, the term "expected" is used to indicate behavior that wil
15:28:53 <kennyluck> lead to this experience. ]]
15:30:58 <kennyluck> we need to make "expected"s into "should"s 
15:31:14 <aphillip> ACTION: aharon: open new issue on HTML5 to make bidi-related default stylesheet items normative (separate from merely presentational stuff)
15:31:14 <trackbot> Created ACTION-11 - Open new issue on HTML5 to make bidi-related default stylesheet items normative (separate from merely presentational stuff) [on Aharon Lanin - due 2011-01-26].
15:31:17 <kennyluck> so that we can write conforming tests.
15:31:53 <aphillip> Bug 10822 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10822>
15:32:17 <aphillip> Proposes recommending that on an OS that has a widespread convention       for setting direction, the user agent should support that convention on       input and textarea elements.
15:34:31 <aphillip> aharon: Bug 10825 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10825>
15:35:00 <aphillip> Bug 10825 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10825>
15:35:09 <aphillip> aphillip has joined #i18n
15:35:14 <aphillip> Bug 10825 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10825>
15:35:33 <aphillip> can't talk about scrollbar positioning (html doesn't even talk about scrollbars)
15:35:43 <aphillip> aharon: also approached CSS
15:35:49 <aphillip> ... and maybe even a style
15:36:43 <aphillip> aharon: only thing we can do is publish some recommendations about scroll bars
15:37:22 <aphillip> will revisit
15:37:49 <aphillip> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2010Dec/0013.html
15:37:50 <kennyluck> +1 and you might want to prefix that with [css3-ui]
15:38:45 <aphillip> Bug 10812 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10812>
15:38:57 <aphillip> Proposes that in <textarea> and <pre>, line breaks should constitute       UBA paragraph breaks.
15:39:10 <kennyluck> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2010Dec/0013 HTML5 bidi bugs to be closed
15:39:54 <aphillip> aharon: they did add a note to HTML5 about <pre> though
15:40:03 <aphillip> ... and filed similar note for textarea
15:40:09 <aphillip> ... which I think was fixed
15:40:15 <aphillip> Bug 10827 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10827>
15:40:31 <aphillip> Proposes that plain text passed by page scripts to whatever services       are provided for dialog display without specifying an explicit direction       should be displayed according to the UBA's rules P1, P2, and P3, which       estimate the direction of each paragraph according to its first strong       character.
15:41:01 <aphillip> aharon: stuff likes alerts
15:41:07 <aphillip> ... should be displayed according to uba rules
15:41:13 <aphillip> ... have no hope of being accepted, but it was
15:41:23 <aphillip> s/have no/had no/
15:41:32 <aphillip>    - Bug 10817 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10817>
15:41:46 <aphillip>  Proposes requiring that title element text will be displayed in the       element's computed direction.
15:42:03 <aphillip> aharon: specified directly for title and also in blanket statement about native controls
15:42:16 <aphillip> Bug 10819 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10819>
15:42:41 <aphillip> aharon: blanket statement about native controls and gives specific example about selective option
15:42:54 <aphillip> Bug 10821 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10821>
15:43:07 <aphillip> Proposes specifying that when the user agent user interface allows       the user to set the direction of <input> and <textarea> elements, it will       set the element's dir attribute value accordingly and trigger the oninput       event after the dir attribute has been set.
15:43:24 <aphillip> aharon: various behavior in various browsers
15:43:39 <aphillip> ... was accepted in full
15:43:58 <aphillip> norbert: only applies to text and search
15:44:07 <aphillip> aharon: tried to be concerned about, but can't think of any other types
15:44:11 <aphillip> ... like password
15:44:20 <aphillip> ... don't care which way the blobs appear
15:44:44 <aphillip> Bug 10813 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10813>
15:44:49 <aphillip> defined by Unicode
15:45:04 <aphillip> but included a note
15:45:06 <aphillip> Bug 10815 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10815>
15:45:25 <aphillip> Proposes removing the HTML 4 requirement<http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/dirlang.html#style-bidi>that block elements forced to display:inline should effectively get       unicode-bidi:embed. Instead, the default value of the ubi attribute for them
15:45:32 <aphillip> should be on
15:45:38 <aphillip> aharon: attribute didn't get in
15:45:45 <aphillip> ... but we have the <bdi> element
15:46:02 <aphillip> aharon: so this couldn't go in, since no attribute to set
15:46:21 <aphillip> ... and also because statement in question was removed
15:46:38 <aphillip> aharon: however, default stylesheet has the same thing basically
15:46:52 <aphillip> ... elements that used to be block
15:47:00 <aphillip> ... and they changed to unicode-bidi:isolate
15:47:24 <aphillip> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:47:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/19-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:47:51 <aphillip> richard: think Aharon has done a fantastic job
15:47:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/19-i18n-minutes.html fsasaki
15:47:58 <aphillip> Addison: yes: kudos!!
15:48:08 <kennyluck> +1 aharon has done excellent job!
15:48:11 <fsasaki> +1!
15:48:37 <David> +1
15:48:56 <aphillip> aharon: hoping to work on test suites to test these features
15:49:41 <aphillip> Topic: WOFF responses
15:49:42 <aharon> zakim, mute me
15:49:42 <Zakim> aharon should now be muted
15:50:14 <aphillip> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2010OctDec/
15:50:55 <aphillip> richard: "don't ignore opentype features"
15:51:04 <aphillip> ... haven't chased down fully
15:51:22 <aphillip> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2010OctDec/0124.html
15:52:22 <aphillip> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2010OctDec/0124.html
15:52:44 <aphillip> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2011JanMar/0003.html
15:52:47 <Zakim> -Felix
15:53:05 <aphillip> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2011JanMar/0001.html
15:53:41 <aharon> zakim, unmute me
15:53:41 <Zakim> aharon should no longer be muted
15:54:02 <aharon> zakim, mute me
15:54:02 <Zakim> aharon should now be muted
15:54:07 <aphillip> Topic: widgets default locale
15:54:10 <aphillip> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2010OctDec/0127.html
15:55:50 <aphillip> addison: this has to do with defiing a default locale for widgets
15:56:04 <aphillip> ... all that is present is the ability to specify various language versions
15:56:29 <aphillip> <widget xmlns = "http://www.w3.org/ns/widgets"         defaultlocale = "en-us">
15:58:34 <aphillip> Topic: Timezones
15:58:37 <aphillip> http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/WorkingWithTimeZones
15:58:52 <aphillip> gwyneth: there is a big conference to do with Olson database integration
15:59:02 <aphillip> ... can't recall details
15:59:57 <aphillip> Topic: AOB?
16:00:18 <aphillip> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:00:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/19-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:00:20 <David> bye
16:00:22 <aharon> bye!
16:00:23 <Zakim> -Gwyneth
16:00:27 <Zakim> -Addison_Phillips
16:00:27 <Zakim> -kennyluck
16:00:29 <Zakim> -norbert
16:00:31 <Zakim> -Richard
16:00:33 <Zakim> -David
16:00:50 <aharon> aharon has left #i18n
16:00:51 <freedom> freedom has left #i18n
16:01:24 <Zakim> -freedom
16:06:24 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, aharon, in I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM
16:06:25 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has ended
16:06:28 <Zakim> Attendees were freedom, aharon, Richard, Addison_Phillips, norbert, Gwyneth, David, kennyluck, Felix
17:16:04 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n
17:57:44 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18n