IRC log of html-a11y on 2011-01-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

21:58:15 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
21:58:15 [RRSAgent]
logging to
21:58:20 [janina]
zakim, this will be 2119
21:58:20 [Zakim]
ok, janina; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
21:58:30 [janina]
zakim, call janina
21:58:30 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
21:58:31 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:00PM has now started
21:58:32 [Zakim]
21:58:52 [janina]
rrsagent, make log public
21:58:59 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
21:58:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate janina
21:59:05 [janina]
Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
21:59:05 [janina]
Chair: Janina_Sajka
21:59:05 [janina]
agenda: this
21:59:05 [janina]
agenda+ Identify Scribe
21:59:05 [janina]
agenda+ Actions Review
21:59:06 [janina]
agenda+ Continued Itemized Bugs Review -- See itemization below
21:59:08 [janina]
agenda+ Synchronizing Multiple Binary Assets
21:59:10 [janina]
agenda+ Media Queries on Track
21:59:12 [janina]
agenda+ Poster Issue
21:59:14 [janina]
agenda+ Media TextFormats Accessibility Comparison Summary Redux
21:59:16 [janina]
agenda+ Other Business?
21:59:18 [janina]
agenda+ be done
21:59:32 [janina]
zakim, take up item 1
21:59:32 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Identify Scribe" taken up [from janina]
22:00:28 [mkobayash]
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22:01:56 [Zakim]
22:03:33 [Zakim]
22:03:55 [Zakim]
22:05:40 [Zakim]
22:05:52 [Sean]
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22:06:12 [Sean]
zakim, passcode
22:06:12 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'passcode', Sean
22:06:24 [Zakim]
22:07:33 [kenny_j]
kenny_j has joined #html-a11y
22:08:12 [Sean]
ok. whats the passcode then
22:08:48 [Zakim]
22:09:00 [kenny_j]
its 2119
22:09:34 [janina]
zakim, ?p12 is Matsutomo
22:09:34 [Zakim]
sorry, janina, I do not recognize a party named '?p12'
22:09:45 [janina]
22:09:53 [Sean]
zakim, what's the conference code?
22:10:08 [Zakim]
the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), Sean
22:10:10 [janina]
Shawn, Code is 2119#
22:10:21 [Sean]
not working here
22:11:12 [Zakim]
22:13:09 [janina]
scribe: Shawn
22:13:17 [janina]
zakim, next item
22:13:17 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Actions Review" taken up [from janina]
22:15:52 [Sean]
Issue 94 draft change proposal for html-issue-142 video (poster alt)
22:16:33 [Sean]
Scribe: Sean
22:18:41 [Sean]
reviewed actions. no reported progress
22:19:12 [janina]
zakim, next item
22:19:12 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Continued Itemized Bugs Review -- See itemization below" taken up [from janina]
22:19:20 [Zakim]
22:19:43 [janina]
22:19:43 [janina]
- Support user control over the visual presentation of caption text.
22:19:43 [janina]
22:19:56 [Zakim]
22:21:02 [janina]
22:21:02 [janina]
- Media elements need control-independent "pause" for presenting lengthy
22:21:02 [janina]
descriptions/captions (RESOLVED REMIND) - Masatomo Kobayashi
22:21:53 [Sean]
sean sent email to silvia
22:23:45 [Sean]
discussed techniques, no inerface for author to interface to client side tts
22:23:58 [Sean]
but other than that the information is there for UA
22:24:43 [Sean]
Janina: there is a motion to taking up client side TTS in HTCG
22:24:56 [Sean]
as part of audio work
22:25:30 [janina]
22:27:39 [Sean]
mkobayash: did you use normal pause?
22:27:45 [Sean]
sean: yes
22:28:10 [Sean]
mkobayash: user cannot press pause button
22:28:58 [Sean]
the technique uses the pause API triggered by caption
22:30:27 [Sean]
group: conclusion is that the informationis there
22:30:44 [Sean]
keeping open until we hear form silvia before closing the bug
22:30:54 [janina]
22:30:54 [janina]
- Make track element additions technology neutral (RESOLVED FIXED) - Sean
22:30:54 [janina]
22:31:26 [Sean]
still section 10.3.2 close
22:32:29 [Sean]
if Ian was to delete this section then we could close the bug
22:32:58 [Sean]
have put a note to that effect
22:33:07 [janina]
22:33:07 [janina]
- Use media queries to select appropriate <track> elements (RESOLVED
22:33:07 [janina]
WONTFIX) - Frank Olivier
22:33:08 [Sean]
there is no need for the W3C to keep track
22:33:32 [Sean]
I checked with frank earlier today
22:34:13 [Sean]
eric to check with DSinger
22:34:35 [janina]
22:34:35 [janina]
- The <track> @kind attribute should include the all of the identified
22:34:35 [janina]
accessibility content types (NEW) - John Foliot
22:35:09 [janina]
zakim, who's on the phone?
22:35:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Janina, Kenny_Johar, Eric_Carlson, ??P12, Sean_Hayes, Judy
22:35:48 [Sean]
ACTION: Eric_Carlson, get D Singer to adopt bug 11395
22:35:48 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Eric_Carlson,
22:36:04 [Sean]
ACTION: Eric_Carlson get D Singer to adopt bug 11395
22:36:04 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Eric_Carlson
22:37:14 [janina]
22:37:15 [janina]
- The <track> @kind attribute should include the all of the identified
22:37:15 [janina]
accessibility content types (NEW) - John Foliot
22:38:58 [Sean]
in the run up to LC we were thinking about new track types so John filed a bug on it
22:39:12 [Sean]
however Silvias analysis is that they were all covered
22:39:31 [Sean]
Janina: we can close if that is indeed the case
22:39:37 [Sean]
check with silvia
22:40:10 [Sean]
janina: done with first pass
22:40:30 [Sean]
janina: will need to return to some as a second pass
22:40:54 [Sean]
janina: confirm in email, ask john to manage
22:41:40 [janina]
zakim, agenda?
22:41:40 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
22:41:42 [Zakim]
3. Continued Itemized Bugs Review -- See itemization below [from janina]
22:41:45 [Zakim]
4. Synchronizing Multiple Binary Assets [from janina]
22:41:48 [Zakim]
5. Media Queries on Track [from janina]
22:41:51 [Zakim]
6. Poster Issue [from janina]
22:41:54 [Zakim]
7. Media TextFormats Accessibility Comparison Summary Redux [from janina]
22:41:55 [Zakim]
8. Other Business? [from janina]
22:41:55 [Zakim]
9. be done [from janina]
22:41:58 [janina]
zakim, close item 3
22:41:58 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Continued Itemized Bugs Review -- See itemization below, closed
22:42:00 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:42:02 [Zakim]
4. Synchronizing Multiple Binary Assets [from janina]
22:42:02 [janina]
zakim, open item 6
22:42:02 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Poster Issue" taken up [from janina]
22:43:14 [Sean]
janina: is there anyone that thinks that alt text needs to distinguish poster form media
22:43:23 [Sean]
22:44:12 [Sean]
janina: seems that the poster behaviour functions as a static image and thats what the alt is abouy
22:44:28 [Sean]
eric: john is not here
22:44:44 [Sean]
and his opinion is we need something as a separate discription
22:45:25 [Sean]
judy: whats the point of discussing now?
22:45:46 [Sean]
janina: bringing out the positions
22:46:18 [Sean]
eric: if you are saying that we need a separate description of the 1st frame from the video, i dont agree
22:46:31 [Sean]
janina: we dont need a description of the elemnet
22:46:48 [Sean]
this is what we traditionallly have done is describe images
22:47:22 [Sean]
so if poster is an image then alt and longdesc apply to it
22:47:38 [Sean]
or 1st frame if its functioning as an image
22:48:04 [Sean]
no alt description for the element
22:48:14 [Sean]
eric: I meant a description of the resource
22:48:32 [Sean]
eric; agree author needs alt or longdesc of the media content
22:48:46 [Sean]
eric: but not describe the 1st frame separately
22:49:09 [Sean]
eric: if it needs to be destinct then it should be described as part of the media resource
22:49:39 [Sean]
eric; seems to me that a description of a video describes what you see in the first frame or poster
22:49:56 [Sean]
janina: how does this differ from a static image
22:50:12 [Sean]
eric: video is different tform a static image
22:50:57 [Sean]
janina: sighted user knows its a video how?
22:50:57 [Sean]
eric: if default controls arent shown then it looks the same as an image
22:51:13 [Sean]
if the controls are there then you see them overlaid
22:51:33 [Sean]
janian: browser + AT can recognize the controls
22:51:40 [Zakim]
22:51:40 [Sean]
eric; yes
22:51:59 [Zakim]
22:52:00 [Sean]
janina: so see no need to describe that
22:53:01 [Sean]
prgrammatically ccan determine image from video, so whatever is being shown is all that needs describing - which is a static image
22:53:40 [Sean]
functionally no different than describing an image
22:54:11 [Sean]
eric: johns point is that we need a new child element of the video containing the poster and a description of the poster
22:54:33 [Sean]
eric: agree with Janina, use existing attribute on the element itself
22:54:50 [Sean]
janina: true that alt as an attribute has some issues
22:54:56 [Sean]
for i18n
22:55:15 [Sean]
but thats a separate discussion on enhancing alt
22:56:13 [Sean]
eric: what about autoplay?
22:56:36 [Sean]
janina: can keep that from happening
22:57:20 [Sean]
eric: even if it starts playing on any user action. what does it mean if the description only cvers the static part and the AT gets to it after playback has started
22:57:32 [Sean]
janina: we should try to avoid that
22:58:08 [Sean]
eric: other controls on the page e.g. an element, can start the video playing
22:58:56 [Sean]
so thinking that doesnt make sense to just describe the static representation, should include description of the media and the first frame (if significant)
22:59:35 [Sean]
eric: we cant prevent it, but may be an edge case
22:59:57 [Sean]
image on another part of the screen which starts the video on hover
23:00:05 [Sean]
any script can trigger media element
23:00:24 [Sean]
janina: yes - a problem
23:01:04 [Sean]
wcag requirement is that you can disable that
23:01:11 [Sean]
or stop it
23:01:17 [Sean]
eric: hard to do
23:01:23 [Sean]
iOS has this behaviour
23:01:39 [Sean]
needs an explicit user gesture to start video
23:01:51 [Sean]
must be in a user initiated event handler
23:02:06 [Sean]
but hard to do on desktop, big change
23:02:12 [Sean]
would break content
23:03:03 [Sean]
Judy: I'm worried we might not have anything exlict on this in wcag
23:03:26 [Sean]
possible we have something adequately generic
23:03:34 [Sean]
and a technique would take care of it
23:03:46 [Sean]
eric: best we can do is an authoring guideline
23:03:57 [Sean]
janina: thinking we cant prevent it
23:04:17 [Sean]
judy: except if we have the ability to feed in UA guidelines
23:04:53 [Sean]
eric: my point is that its possible for a UA to prevent autoplay, not honor page authors trequest
23:05:05 [Sean]
but its difficult prevent any script
23:05:20 [Sean]
when is it OK, thats the issue
23:05:52 [Sean]
janina: its a common behaviour, and people like it; but for some its an accessibility issue
23:06:06 [Sean]
eric: but whats to prevent a script running>
23:06:35 [Sean]
kenny: difficult for engineers, but could filter out based on events
23:06:41 [Sean]
eric: wont prevent it
23:06:57 [Sean]
they are attached to media loading
23:07:25 [Sean]
very difficult to determine automatically when its ok and when its not
23:07:39 [Sean]
on iOS script has to be triggered from user gesture
23:07:50 [Sean]
but its hard to implement; and breaks a lot of content
23:08:26 [Sean]
lots of bug reports on iphone because of this
23:08:43 [Sean]
causes authors to write new scriptsa for the phone
23:08:54 [Sean]
wont get buy in on such a change
23:09:15 [Sean]
janina: maybe its a new user requirment
23:09:42 [Sean]
judy: wcag doesnt say anything directly relevant to preventing autoplay
23:10:10 [Sean]
the relevant place is UAAG, and has a clause on separate selection form activation
23:10:14 [Sean]
as a user option
23:10:45 [Sean]
partial relevance
23:10:53 [Sean]
and another one about event handlers
23:11:17 [Sean]
maybe needs to revisited if we have feedback on autoplay
23:11:56 [Sean]
kenny: Q: is there a possibility of dealing with it in browser to give screen reader user a means to stop the video on request
23:12:18 [Sean]
judy: both probably, but we dont have both covered
23:12:26 [Sean]
eric; technically possible
23:12:44 [Sean]
but custom controls wuld have to have a case to deal with it
23:13:27 [Sean]
on page with default controls tho could work
23:13:53 [Sean]
janina: strayed form the poster issue? but identified an important issue
23:14:02 [Sean]
need to articulate it better
23:14:36 [Sean]
janina: that media does not start automatically unless user asks for it
23:15:03 [Sean]
not bringing focus on another element etc. setting for specific users
23:15:20 [Sean]
eric: this is a problem that cant be solved cleanly
23:15:35 [Sean]
we will prevent people from writing custom controls
23:16:14 [Sean]
kenny: so if browsers give a keystrok to stop, it should be possible now that video is native
23:16:35 [Sean]
may be a more robust solution
23:16:43 [Sean]
and its only one new gesture to learn
23:16:54 [Sean]
eric; could work.
23:17:39 [Sean]
sean: but if the video starts then the poster is no longer visible
23:17:51 [Sean]
eric: so the description needs ot be of the whole resource
23:18:05 [Sean]
so its always relevant
23:18:21 [Sean]
janina: ok, hadnt thought of that
23:18:44 [Sean]
kenny: alt text for the video must describe the video, but not frame by frame
23:19:25 [Sean]
janina: description for poster would need to dissapear
23:19:46 [Sean]
would make sense if the video is paused on different frame
23:19:51 [Sean]
23:20:25 [Sean]
janina: more fruitful conversation tan expected
23:20:45 [Sean]
summary: 1 mechanism or multiple mechanisms
23:20:54 [Sean]
point of disagreement
23:21:53 [Sean]
point 2: jf and janina have discussed offline, he's cncernd that the poster may be irrlevant to what the movie is
23:22:18 [Sean]
if thats the case then its the case for the sighted user too
23:23:14 [Sean]
expecting there is some thing which tells you what the video is, separate from any poster image
23:23:20 [Sean]
like a title
23:23:29 [Sean]
judy: a name is the most consistent thing
23:23:47 [Sean]
eric: majority of web content just has the first frame of the file
23:23:57 [Sean]
so not that helpful to sighted user either
23:24:12 [Sean]
janina: should try to solve bad authoring
23:24:20 [Sean]
should not
23:24:38 [Sean]
but john may have a different perspective
23:24:46 [Sean]
have we missed anything?
23:24:53 [Sean]
23:25:14 [janina]
zakim, agenda?
23:25:14 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
23:25:15 [Zakim]
4. Synchronizing Multiple Binary Assets [from janina]
23:25:18 [Zakim]
5. Media Queries on Track [from janina]
23:25:20 [Zakim]
6. Poster Issue [from janina]
23:25:23 [Zakim]
7. Media TextFormats Accessibility Comparison Summary Redux [from janina]
23:25:25 [Zakim]
8. Other Business? [from janina]
23:25:25 [Zakim]
9. be done [from janina]
23:27:00 [Sean]
CfP for media API went out. deadline feb 21
23:27:39 [Zakim]
23:27:43 [Zakim]
23:27:44 [Zakim]
23:27:45 [Zakim]
23:27:52 [janina]
zakim, bye
23:27:52 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Janina, Kenny_Johar, Judy, Eric_Carlson, Sean_Hayes
23:27:52 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-a11y
23:27:59 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
23:27:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate janina