IRC log of html-xml on 2011-01-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:00:31 [RRSAgent]
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15:00:31 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:00:39 [Zakim]
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15:00:43 [Norm]
zakim, this is xml
15:00:43 [Zakim]
Norm, T&S_XMLSEC()10:00AM is already associated with an irc channel; use 'move xml to here' if you mean to reassociate the channel
15:00:49 [darobin]
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15:00:57 [Norm]
zakim, list conferences
15:00:57 [Zakim]
I see VB_VBWG()10:00AM, T&S_XMLSEC()10:00AM, TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM, SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM, Team_Europe()5:00AM, INC_(OMM)4:00AM active
15:00:59 [Zakim]
also scheduled at this time are IA_Team()10:00AM, MWI_BPWG()9:30AM, XML_(TAG TF)10:00AM
15:00:59 [noah]
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15:01:15 [Norm]
zakim, this is xml_(tag tf)
15:01:15 [Zakim]
ok, Norm; that matches XML_(TAG TF)10:00AM
15:02:36 [Zakim]
15:02:46 [Zakim]
15:02:49 [darobin]
Zakim, ??P32 is me
15:02:51 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
15:02:54 [Zakim]
15:03:05 [hsivonen]
Zakim, ??P27 is me
15:03:16 [Zakim]
+darobin; got it
15:03:19 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
15:03:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Noah_Mendelsohn, darobin, ??P27, Yves
15:03:25 [Norm]
Meeting: HTML/XML Task Force
15:03:25 [Norm]
Date: 18 January 2011
15:03:25 [Norm]
15:03:25 [Norm]
Meeting: 4
15:03:25 [Norm]
Chair: Norm
15:03:26 [Norm]
Scribe: Norm
15:03:28 [Norm]
ScribeNick: Norm
15:03:34 [Zakim]
+hsivonen; got it
15:03:38 [Zakim]
15:03:50 [Zakim]
15:03:54 [Zakim]
On IRC I see noah, darobin, Zakim, RRSAgent, Norm, anne, hsivonen, Yves
15:04:00 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Noah_Mendelsohn, darobin, hsivonen, Yves, Norm, [Microsoft]
15:04:02 [Zakim]
On IRC I see noah, darobin, Zakim, RRSAgent, Norm, anne, hsivonen, Yves
15:04:06 [Norm]
zakim, who's making noise?
15:04:54 [Zakim]
15:04:54 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:05:03 [anne]
Zakim, ??P49 is me
15:05:16 [Zakim]
Norm, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft] (69%)
15:05:36 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Noah_Mendelsohn, darobin, hsivonen, Yves, Norm, [Microsoft], ??P49
15:05:48 [Zakim]
+anne; got it
15:06:00 [Norm]
Present: Noah, Robin, Henri, Yves, Norm, Michael Champion, Anne
15:07:04 [Norm]
Topic: Accept this agenda?
15:07:04 [Norm]
15:07:14 [Norm]
15:07:19 [Norm]
Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
15:07:19 [Norm]
15:07:36 [Norm]
15:07:41 [Zakim]
15:07:53 [Norm]
Present: Noah, Robin, Henri, Yves, Norm, Michael Champion, Anne, Michael Kay
15:08:12 [Zakim]
15:08:17 [Norm]
Topic: Next meeting: 25 Jan 2011
15:08:23 [Norm]
Present: Noah, Robin, Henri, Yves, Norm, Michael Champion, Anne, Michael Kay, John
15:08:30 [Norm]
Noah is at risk for 25 Jan.
15:08:50 [Norm]
Topic: Use cases/goals
15:08:51 [MikeK]
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15:08:55 [jcowan]
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15:09:45 [Norm]
Norm: The only new use case I saw in the last week was XForms, which seemed controversial.
15:10:27 [noah]
q+ after Henri, to answer Norm on is it a use case
15:10:28 [Norm]
MikeK: I think there needs to be a story as there are a community of people that want to use it with HTML
15:10:39 [hsivonen]
15:10:45 [noah]
q+ to answer Norm on is it a use case (after Henri)
15:10:45 [Norm]
MikeC: Is it a separate use case because there are mixed names, or is it just another XML vocabulary?
15:11:05 [Norm]
MikeK: It's a use case in the sense that doing it mixes HTML and XML. It has particular problems, which is why we consider more than one.
15:11:09 [Norm]
ack hsivonen
15:11:37 [Norm]
Henri: I have a bit of a problem with calling using XForms a use case; as opposed to creating an interface to allow users to submit values to a server.
15:11:45 [jcowan]
15:12:01 [Norm]
...I think XForms presupposes a solution to the problem. It's a use case in terms of vocabulary mixing.
15:12:43 [Norm]
...But I refer back to my email; there was a task for explicitly for XForms+HTML and it petered out. I think that's evidence that there isn't as much interest here as it might seem. They've missed their opportunity to have it discussed.
15:12:46 [Norm]
ack noah
15:12:46 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to answer Norm on is it a use case (after Henri)
15:13:23 [Norm]
Noah: I guess my feeling is a bit in the middle. With respect, I think Henri goes a little further than I would with taking this off the table. I think the TF was about putting XForms in HTML.
15:13:43 [Norm]
...Here, were talking about the broader issue of low hanging fruit or high benefit to cost ratio wrt lining up HTML and XML.
15:14:14 [Norm]
...The use case might be interactive form input. That's like saying to someone who asks for a C language interface, "you don't want a C language interface..."
15:14:43 [Norm]
...Just saying XForms is listing a technology. I think we could say that one or more communities have vocabularies that be mixed.
15:15:13 [Norm]
...I also think it's in the nature of what we're doing that we want to describe general facilities. They might not fit exactly with any particular use case.
15:15:28 [Norm]
...Some of the email suggested an ambiguity in defining the use case; I think we should resolve that.
15:15:53 [darobin]
q+ it's not about XForms, it's about the integration problems that XForms might demonstrate
15:15:56 [Norm]
...Some folks refer to XForms as an XML island; others seem to be thinking of HTML in an XForms kind of template.
15:16:03 [Norm]
ack jcowan
15:16:11 [darobin]
q+ to it's not about XForms, it's about the integration problems that XForms might demonstrate
15:16:44 [noah]
s/might not fit exactly with/might not be fully justified by/
15:17:15 [Norm]
John: What's a use case and what's a solution depends on the level we take. In one sense HTML isn't a use case, it's a particular solution to the problem of dispaying information on the web.
15:17:30 [anne]
15:17:37 [Norm]
...At our level, I think it's ok to describe technologies as a use case. We want to consider the question of how I can use technology X.
15:17:55 [Norm]
...At some level, the question is how do we keep the machines turning and ourselves employed.
15:17:58 [Norm]
ack darobin
15:17:59 [Zakim]
darobin, you wanted to it's not about XForms, it's about the integration problems that XForms might demonstrate
15:18:47 [hsivonen]
15:18:48 [Norm]
Robin: I don't much care about XForms as a solution is a use case or not. The part that's interesting here is, if there are specific problems that XForms has integrating into HTML. Those are problems that might surface elsewhere.
15:19:01 [Norm]
...I'd like to look at the problems that come up, even if XForms as a solution aren't within our remit.
15:19:06 [Norm]
ack anne
15:19:34 [Norm]
Anne: The problem is that not everyone accepts that XForms is a technology that we need. Therefore looking at the underlying use case might be better.
15:20:06 [Norm]
...In some sense we started the WHATWG because we didn't like XForms.
15:20:09 [Norm]
John: But some people do.
15:20:12 [Norm]
15:20:15 [Norm]
ack hsivonen
15:20:41 [Norm]
Henri: I think Robin has a point. XForms demonstrates a different kind of integration. MathML and SVG are pretty much self contained islands. There are certain well defined exit points.
15:21:48 [Norm]
...XForms intermixes more with its host language. In that sense it's a different kind of vocabulary. The problem that I have with running too far in that direction is that if it happens that the vocabularies that will get integrated are all like MathML and SVG, then preparing for integrating other types may be architectural aeronautics.
15:22:08 [Norm]
...We might be doing work for a case that we'll never actually need. It might be that integrating the vocabularies that intermingle more is in the "you don't need it" department.
15:22:24 [Norm]
15:23:01 [hsivonen]
15:23:02 [Norm]
Norm: Does anyone have other use cases in mind?
15:23:37 [Norm]
Noah: This could just be me, I'm having trouble answering that question. We've done a good if somewhat scattered job of a first pass. But I don't think I could write down a net of all this discussion.
15:23:43 [hsivonen]
15:23:56 [Norm]
...Do you have a process in mind, Norm?
15:24:58 [Norm]
Norm: No, not really. I thought we'd get a lot more use cases and I'm not sure what the next steps are for just five cases.
15:25:08 [Norm]
ack hsivonen
15:25:18 [Norm]
Henri: I'd like to propose some next steps.
15:25:43 [Norm]
... Writing down the list of use cases we've discussed. I think there were one or two that were added as we went.
15:26:04 [noah]
Exactly, Henri, that's what I was proposing. I think we should not only list the 5, but net out in a sentence or two each where they stand in terms of what we learned from the discussion.
15:26:13 [Norm]
... And then going through that list and maybe just copying and pasting the replies from the email and telcons to catalog what solutions have come up so far.
15:26:24 [noah]
q+ on weighting use cass
15:26:39 [Norm]
... Perhaps we can conclude that the solutions are all good enough. Or perhaps we'll conclude that more work is necessary.
15:26:58 [Norm]
... Then perhaps we can write this up in a way that will help an XML person learn what the known HTML solutions are for their problems.
15:27:03 [Norm]
ack noah
15:27:03 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to comment on weighting use cass
15:27:55 [Norm]
Noah: I agree pretty much completely. I suggest we also think about which ones look really really important. We might decide that a couple are really important, some are less so. I'm missing that kind of weighting.
15:28:47 [Norm]
...Either we're going to get really lucky, finding a solution that's all benefit with very little cost, but much more likely we're going to look at choices. We're going to look at changes we can make and be able to say which ones are worth the trouble.
15:29:01 [Norm]
Henri: There's also the chance that we're so lucky that nothing needs to be changed at all.
15:29:13 [Norm]
Noah: Yes, that might happen to.
15:30:04 [hsivonen]
maybe a wiki?
15:30:15 [Norm]
Norm: I wonder if we could break up the work.
15:30:33 [Norm]
MikeC: I agree that it's a good idea; since I won't be there to defend myself, you can give me an action item to do something.
15:30:53 [Norm]
...Identify the use cases and divy up the work of going through the mail and minutes to summarize the state of it.
15:30:59 [Norm]
...If there's a template for it, that would be great too.
15:31:21 [Zakim]
15:32:54 [Norm]
Norm: Do we want to do it on a wiki?
15:33:01 [Norm]
John: What about people on the mailing list?
15:33:14 [Norm]
Henri: They can send mail and we'll copy it over, we don't have to make this too hard.
15:33:24 [hsivonen]
that was Anne
15:33:35 [Norm]
Norm: Sounds like we're going to use a wiki. Any opposition?
15:33:43 [Norm]
s/Henri: They can/Anne: They can/
15:33:50 [Norm]
None heard.
15:33:57 [Norm]
zakim, who's here?
15:33:57 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Noah_Mendelsohn, darobin (muted), hsivonen, Yves, Norm, anne, MikeK, John_Cowan
15:33:59 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jcowan, MikeK, noah, darobin, Zakim, RRSAgent, Norm, anne, hsivonen, Yves
15:34:46 [Norm]
Noah: Time frame?
15:35:08 [Norm]
Norm: I think it would be good to have it by next week, but I suppose the world won't end if it isn't.
15:35:19 [hsivonen]
I volunteer to take one
15:38:07 [hsivonen]
I could take "I have an XML toolchain and I want to consume HTML5 because I'd like to process HTML5 using XML tools."
15:40:30 [Norm]
1. XML toolchain to consume HTML5 -- Henri
15:40:30 [Norm]
2. HTML5 toolchain to consume XML -- MChampion
15:40:30 [Norm]
3. Islands of HTML5 in XML -- Noah
15:40:30 [Norm]
4. Islands of XML in HTML -- John
15:40:30 [Norm]
5. Anne's -- Anne
15:40:31 [Norm]
6. XForms - M. Kay
15:41:09 [anne]
(My use case was about easy of authoring of XML.)
15:41:15 [anne]
15:41:28 [Norm]
Norm: I'll take the action of getting an appropriate root page on the wiki and sending out instructions
15:42:24 [Norm]
John: I wanted to mention MicroLark. I have a parser and the implementation of the object model pretty well advanced.
15:42:29 [hsivonen]
Did Sam have a seventh use case or was it part of the other ones?
15:42:36 [Norm]
...I'm running through the test cases, not all of which apply.
15:42:46 [Norm]
...I hope to get something out in about a week.
15:43:30 [Norm]
Henri: Sam sent email about how to generate HTML with legacy tools. So basically, the scenario was that the content generating tools are legacy but you want to generate HTML5 of newer vintage than your tools.
15:43:36 [Norm]
John: You mean HTML tools?
15:43:40 [Norm]
Henri: Yes.
15:43:44 [Norm]
John: How is that relevant?
15:43:50 [Norm]
Henri: Maybe it isn't.
15:44:41 [Norm]
John: Maybe another use case is having XML tools that produce HTML5.
15:44:45 [Norm]
Noah: The text/html serialization?
15:44:57 [hsivonen]
for the last point, might be of interest
15:45:19 [Norm]
John: At least some of it. As long as XHTML isn't fully accepted, people will want to generate the text form. I think we know the shape of the answer, an HTML5 serializer.
15:45:34 [Norm]
Noah: There may be other ways to skin the cat.
15:47:57 [Norm]
Henri: With respect to XHTML, everything except some edge cases like the form feed character, is possible with XHTML that's possible with the text/html serialization.
15:48:46 [Norm]
Noah: A commitment to such bidirectional support in the future can be listed as a possible solution.
15:49:33 [Norm]
Norm: I'll write that one up.
15:49:43 [hsivonen]
The "Sample Apps" section at is relevant to what was just discussed.
15:50:02 [Norm]
...And after we have the wiki pages up, the community can tell us about the use cases we've overlooked.
15:50:15 [Norm]
Topic: Any other business?
15:50:20 [noah]
I think we need to point out that this works for the subset of the language that, e.g. does not depend on prefix bindings from xmlns
15:50:22 [noah]
15:50:49 [noah]
15:50:50 [Norm]
Norm confirms he'll get the wiki setup.
15:51:05 [Norm]
15:51:06 [Zakim]
15:51:08 [Zakim]
15:51:10 [Zakim]
15:51:11 [Zakim]
15:51:11 [Zakim]
15:51:13 [Zakim]
15:51:19 [Zakim]
15:51:19 [Norm]
rrsagent, set logs world visible
15:51:24 [Norm]
rrsagent, draft minues
15:51:24 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft minues', Norm. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:51:28 [Norm]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:51:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Norm
15:53:48 [jcowan]
At least it's logging and not lagging.
15:57:17 [jcowan]
If anyone is wondering, I have grabbed 2283 of the 2777 test files from W3C xmlconf (excluding XML 1.1 and some things like that) and currently all the non-wf ones are being rejected by MicroLark, and it accepts the subset of the rest that it should accept. However, there are currently 279 that parse to different infosets with MicroLark than with an XML parser.
15:57:49 [jcowan]
I also need to write unit tests for the DOM and the writer.
15:58:06 [jcowan]
And still the whole thing is only about 2000 Java LoC, one-third the size of Lark.
15:58:50 [jcowan]
I intend there to be a path walker and MicroRNG validator as well.
16:01:49 [Zakim]
16:01:51 [Zakim]
XML_(TAG TF)10:00AM has ended
16:01:54 [Zakim]
Attendees were Noah_Mendelsohn, Yves, darobin, hsivonen, Norm, [Microsoft], anne, MikeK, John_Cowan
16:02:40 [jcowan]
make that 2571 original test files
16:03:18 [jcowan]
2301 of which were XML 1.0
16:03:51 [jcowan]
So only 18 test files were "lost"
16:08:07 [MikeK]
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