IRC log of tagmem on 2011-01-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:58:59 [RRSAgent]
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17:58:59 [RRSAgent]
logging to
17:59:52 [Zakim]
18:00:27 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
18:00:27 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Noah_Mendelsohn, Masinter
18:00:28 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Ashok, noah, Larry, timbl, plinss, trackbot, Yves
18:00:57 [Zakim]
18:02:56 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
18:02:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Noah_Mendelsohn, Masinter, Ashok_Malhotra
18:02:58 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Ashok, noah, Larry, timbl, plinss, trackbot, Yves
18:03:25 [Zakim]
18:04:33 [ht]
ht has joined #tagmem
18:04:58 [ht]
Sorry i'm late
18:05:03 [ht]
give me a minute to get set up
18:05:06 [ht]
zakim, code?
18:05:07 [ht]
18:05:12 [Zakim]
the conference code is 0824 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), ht
18:05:17 [Zakim]
18:05:59 [Zakim]
18:08:23 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
18:08:23 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Noah_Mendelsohn, Masinter, Ashok_Malhotra, John_Kemp, TimBL, Yves
18:08:26 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ht, RRSAgent, Zakim, Ashok, noah, Larry, timbl, plinss, trackbot, Yves
18:08:46 [timbl]
scribenicj: timbl
18:08:57 [timbl]
scribenick: timbl
18:09:03 [noah]
18:09:23 [noah]
18:09:27 [timbl]
Noah: Here is a link
18:09:33 [timbl]
to the agenda for this call
18:09:57 [timbl]
Ashok: regrets for next week
18:10:21 [timbl]
Noah: We have minutes from last week's call:
18:10:26 [noah]
topic: Approve last week's minutes
18:10:28 [noah]
18:10:53 [noah]
RESOLVED: the minutes of 6 January 2011 ( ) are approved
18:11:26 [timbl]
Ashok: I have read the TAG draft status report
18:11:30 [timbl]
... looked ok
18:11:49 [timbl]
Noah: After a few days, can I take silence to be assent?
18:11:52 [Larry]
new version of mime-web-info-02
18:12:34 [Larry]
the link will give the "latest"
18:12:48 [timbl]
Larry: this shoul dgo int the report
18:12:50 [noah]
RESOLVED: Noah to publish status report status report on 17 January if no objections are received in email, will update version of mime-web-info to 02
18:13:50 [timbl]
Noah: We need to plane the face-face meeting. Please help in the next 2-3weeks
18:13:57 [timbl]
18:14:00 [noah]
18:14:44 [noah]
topic: Repurposing the Hash Sign for the New Web
18:15:02 [noah]
Draft is at:
18:16:53 [timbl]
Noah: The document seems much improved.
18:17:12 [timbl]
... The title of the finding needs to be rethought as it is not all about fragids.
18:17:21 [Larry]
q+ to talk about requirements for redefining "#" that I don't see identified
18:18:27 [timbl]
Noah: It needs to go further to actuallygive the reader a good sense of which technique to use.
18:18:50 [noah]
ack next
18:18:51 [Zakim]
Larry, you wanted to talk about requirements for redefining "#" that I don't see identified
18:18:52 [timbl]
Larry: I am looking for some things in the document:
18:19:06 [timbl]
... I'd liek to understand how it works fo rnon-HTTP URI schemes.
18:19:16 [timbl]
... Is it only ted to HTTP?
18:19:32 [Zakim]
18:19:40 [timbl]
... Also, how does it apply to fradids which are used with not Javascript, but active contenet?
18:20:02 [Zakim]
18:20:24 [timbl]
... Particularly, more than the anaylis of HTTP and HTML -- ho much applies to other situations/
18:20:32 [timbl]
Ashok: I would have t think about it
18:20:41 [timbl]
... it isn't obvious.
18:21:12 [ht]
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18:21:27 [timbl]
Noah: I did thik the thing was funny as a TAG finding, as it mostly says look most of what I am desriving here confluct with the way the web works .. but you conclusion at th e end is that [...]
18:22:11 [timbl]
... Not sure what the conclusion is a to whether this stuff is good to do and we should change thepsecs, or wheth it should be discouraged -- in fact you seem to encourage it
18:22:17 [Zakim]
18:22:24 [timbl]
Adhok: There is a section on the non-conformance.
18:22:45 [Larry]
there's an analog with the mime-web-info document: identify the problems with current specs and recommend changes to specs so that practice & specs are not in conflict. I'd rather see this as "What has to change" rather than "who to liase with".
18:22:47 [Larry]
18:22:50 [ht]
scribenick: ht
18:22:59 [timbl]
Noah: Yes, a nice part. Chap 3, "Rec bet practices", leaves teh implication that one shoul dviolate the RFC?
18:23:11 [ht]
AM: What I was hoping was talk about Chap 3 vs. the RFC
18:23:20 [timbl]
Ashok: I had hoped to discuss this on the cal.
18:23:20 [ht]
... since this is delicate
18:23:31 [ht]
NM: We'll do that next week, OK
18:24:27 [timbl]
scribenick ht
18:24:31 [timbl]
scribenick: ht
18:24:36 [ht]
LM: I recommend we focus on what specs have to change
18:25:09 [ht]
... how to get docs and practice into sync
18:25:30 [ht]
AM: Comment in wrt Media Fragment work, which I'll add to the doc
18:25:47 [ht]
... And also JAR wanted to talk about the RDFa situation
18:25:57 [ht]
... which likewise we'll add, but I need JAR's help
18:26:32 [ht]
NM: In Lyon, LM suggested that when we're working over a period of weeks on something, we should make clear exactly what the deliverable we have in view is
18:26:49 [ht]
... So we need, perhaps at the f2f, to get there wrt this work
18:27:03 [Larry]
Note that the draft-masinter-mime-web-info document also talks about fragment identifiers in MIME registrations
18:27:27 [Larry]
18:27:27 [trackbot]
ACTION-481 -- Ashok Malhotra to update client-side state document with help from Raman Due: 2010-11-30 -- due 2010-10-27 -- OPEN
18:27:27 [trackbot]
18:28:10 [ht]
NM: Let's keep using this action, and bump the date
18:29:08 [ht]
Topic: IETF Presentation
18:29:54 [ht]
LM: I think we're too far away from something of interest
18:30:04 [ht]
... I was more optimistic in November
18:30:22 [noah]
18:30:33 [ht]
... What would interest the IETF is the interaction between WebApps and Security, Privacy, . . ..
18:30:45 [ht]
... We haven't gotten to that level
18:31:24 [ht]
LM: To do organisational framing, more groundwork would be required before I would be ready to talk about this in Prague
18:31:46 [ht]
... We should have a product, but making it be a presentation is the wrong level
18:32:14 [ht]
... The product we need is a definition of our relation with IETF, at the level of the relation between WebArch and InternetArch
18:32:40 [ht]
... We're doing better than in the past in terms of coordination
18:33:01 [noah]
zakim, who is talkin?
18:33:01 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, noah.
18:33:01 [ht]
... But w/o that larger context, driving the conversation up from the bottom with the WebApps topic
18:33:04 [ht]
... doesn't work
18:33:17 [ht]
18:33:50 [ht]
AM: I'm disappointed, without disagreeing
18:34:31 [ht]
TBL: When we present TAG work, a T-shaped approach is OK -- broad and narrow, diving in in a few places
18:34:35 [Larry]
I think we need a 'product' but the product is a coordination of Web Architecture with Internet Architecture, and starting with Web Applications is OK, but I think the product needs to be larger
18:34:41 [ht]
... mixtures of levels is OK
18:35:12 [Larry]
Perhaps a 12-slide talk of which web applications are the last 6... but need the first 6 too
18:35:12 [ht]
TBL: In this case, we could use WebApp as a dive-deep example
18:35:33 [ht]
LM: Yes, but I need the general part too!
18:37:00 [ht]
NM: Did you (LM) say that introducing the work of the TAG was too high level? Whereas TBL said that was OK if we drilled down in one case?
18:37:27 [ht]
q+ to put a different interp. on LM's point
18:37:55 [ht]
NM: I do understand that you think WebApp is not ready yet
18:38:17 [Larry]
tag/iab is in the context of W3C/IETF, which is in the context of Web/Internet
18:39:02 [ht]
NM: So I'm willing to close Larry's short-term actions, and open my action up to a larger goal, but TBL seemed to push back
18:39:04 [ht]
ack ht
18:39:05 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to put a different interp. on LM's point
18:39:38 [Larry]
Product is how we coordinate WebApps in TAG and "WebAPps in IAB" in the context of TAG and IAB in the context of W3C and IETF which is the context of Web and Internet.
18:39:50 [Larry]
q+ to talk about the levels
18:40:01 [noah]
HT: I heard Larry differently. I think he took the goal of the presentation to be: engage the audience in joint work going forward. Without a degree of background having been established for divying, he wasn't ready to do that.
18:40:31 [noah]
HT: I didn't hear that he was unhappy with "introduce the TAG", which was Noah's proposal.
18:40:35 [Ashok]
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18:40:41 [noah]
NM: Nope, it was what Noah heard of Tim's proposal
18:40:59 [ht]
LM: There are many levels at which we could approach the interaction question
18:41:15 [ht]
... All the way 'down' from InternetArch vs. WebArch
18:41:28 [ht]
... through both organisational and technical divisions
18:41:37 [ht]
... to WebApps as a specific topic
18:42:31 [ht]
LM: Thinking about talking about WebApps as such w/o getting that set of levels at least a bit clearer doesn't feel right
18:42:49 [ht]
NM: What next?
18:43:29 [ht]
LM: Your action (ACTION-499) enlarged to look at the InternetArch and WebArch makes sense to me, and I'll help with that
18:43:54 [ht]
LM: ... and suspend ACTION-497 and ACTION-500
18:44:16 [ht]
NM: If that means no presentation in Prague, we need to tell Alexei that
18:44:24 [ht]
LM: I will tell him
18:45:00 [ht]
LM: ... by next week
18:45:14 [ht]
NM: We could focus on this at the f2f, maybe turn the corner?
18:45:32 [ht]
LM: We could invite the relevant app area directors to call in to the f2f?
18:45:43 [ht]
18:46:05 [ht]
NM: OK, we'll work together on a new, shinier 499
18:46:22 [ht]
... you will bump 500 and talk to Alexei
18:46:29 [ht]
... and we'll review the situation at the f2f
18:46:40 [noah]
close ACTION-497
18:46:41 [trackbot]
ACTION-497 Prepare us for a teleconference with IETF-IAB on possible prague IETF presentation. closed
18:47:12 [ht]
Topic: Pending Review Action Items
18:47:25 [noah]
Pending review actions:
18:48:03 [noah]
close ACTION-464
18:48:03 [trackbot]
ACTION-464 Coordinate agenda for TAG/IETF meeting at TPAC closed
18:48:05 [noah]
close ACTION-468
18:48:05 [trackbot]
ACTION-468 Invite Thinh to telcon where Tim will be available to discuss "forbidding of hyperlinking" closed
18:49:14 [ht]
LM: Wrt ACTION-479, there is a new draft
18:49:28 [ht]
NM: So I need to schedule review -- next week, or longer?
18:49:31 [ht]
LM: Next week
18:50:47 [noah]
close ACTION-479
18:50:47 [trackbot]
ACTION-479 Ping Thomas again on Dec. Privacy workshop closed
18:50:51 [noah]
close ACTION-490
18:50:51 [trackbot]
ACTION-490 Noah and others(?) going to privacy workshop to report back to the TAG? closed
18:50:57 [noah]
close ACTION-494
18:50:57 [trackbot]
ACTION-494 Reach out to Device APIs chair to see about joint TAG session closed
18:51:00 [noah]
close ACTION-496
18:51:00 [trackbot]
ACTION-496 Update Guide to TAG participation on intent to set specific deliverables for each discussion closed
18:51:00 [johnk]
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18:52:39 [Larry]
18:52:39 [trackbot]
ACTION-498 -- Noah Mendelsohn to report results of HTML5 WG consideration of conformance for extensions (their ISSUE 140), get TAG to prepare change proposal if necessary -- due 2010-11-12 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:52:39 [trackbot]
18:52:41 [noah]
close ACTION-498
18:52:41 [trackbot]
ACTION-498 Report results of HTML5 WG consideration of conformance for extensions (their ISSUE 140), get TAG to prepare change proposal if necessary closed
18:53:14 [noah]
close ACTION-503
18:53:14 [trackbot]
ACTION-503 Publicize to www-tag & chairs health warning on secondary resourc redirection as resolved on 18 Nov 2010 closed
18:53:44 [timbl]
18:53:46 [Larry]
18:53:58 [ht]
Topic: Overdue action items
18:54:08 [noah]
18:54:39 [noah]
18:54:39 [trackbot]
ACTION-341 -- Yves Lafon to follow up with Thomas about security review activities for HTML5 -- due 2010-11-15 -- OPEN
18:54:39 [trackbot]
18:55:29 [noah]
ACTION-341 Due 2011-01-25
18:55:29 [trackbot]
ACTION-341 Follow up with Thomas about security review activities for HTML5 due date now 2011-01-25
18:55:39 [Larry]
note websec working group
18:55:40 [noah]
18:55:40 [trackbot]
ACTION-404 -- Yves Lafon to track HTML WG ISSUE-27 rel-ownership -- due 2011-02-12 -- OPEN
18:55:40 [trackbot]
18:56:01 [Larry]
18:57:22 [ht]
LM: There is a new WebSec group at the IETF
18:57:36 [Yves]
18:57:57 [ht]
... If there are security concerns wrt HTML5, those issues should be signalled to the WebSec group
18:58:16 [ht]
... They are already looking at e.g. cross-site issues
18:58:32 [ht]
... Good news wrt community cooperation, I think
18:59:37 [noah]
18:59:37 [trackbot]
ACTION-475 -- Ashok Malhotra to write finding on client-side storage, DanA to review -- due 2010-10-26 -- OPEN
18:59:37 [trackbot]
19:01:32 [noah]
ACTION-475 Due 2011-03-21
19:01:32 [trackbot]
ACTION-475 Write finding on client-side storage, DanA to review due date now 2011-03-21
19:03:14 [ht]
q+ to ask for a report from TBL to be scheduled at some point
19:03:18 [ht]
Topic: AOB
19:03:52 [ht]
LM: I have started pushing the TDB and ??? documents again, and this has stimulated some discussion
19:04:32 [Larry]
19:04:33 [noah]
ack next
19:05:27 [ht]
19:05:41 [ht]
NM: Do you want TAG involvement in this?
19:05:50 [ht]
LM: Asking if it's important for TAG to do
19:06:14 [noah]
HT: Unless the F2F schedule gets really full, I think this is worth one session.
19:06:35 [noah]
NM: How would you scope the session?
19:07:12 [ht]
HST: It's related to persistence
19:07:19 [ht]
... and the health of the web
19:08:26 [ht]
LM: A stable document
19:08:54 [noah]
ack next
19:08:55 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to ask for a report from TBL to be scheduled at some point
19:09:44 [noah]
HT: Would like to ask Tim to report back to us at his convenience about HTML/XML task force.
19:09:47 [ht]
HST: I wanted to ask TBL to report, informally and at his convenience, on the progress of the XML-HTML initiative
19:10:24 [ht]
NM: I have in fact invited Norm Walsh to join us at the f2f, for just such a purpose, as he is chairing the group
19:10:36 [ht]
LM: RDFa is being rechartered
19:10:47 [Larry]
RDFa is being rechartered
19:11:05 [Larry]
architecture recapitulates organizational structure
19:11:12 [ht]
... and since architecture recapitulates organizational structure
19:11:31 [ht]
... should the new RDFa charter be broadened to cover metadata on the web?
19:11:48 [timbl]
19:11:50 [ht]
... i.e. other kinds of embedded metadata
19:11:56 [noah]
ack next
19:11:56 [Larry]
should RDFa charter include more about scope of media annotations, microdata, etc.
19:12:23 [noah]
Hmm. Seems that giving it such a broad remit could be a recipe for nothing getting done.
19:12:25 [Larry]
what is the API for accessing metadata, and more general
19:12:56 [ht]
TBL: A related issue has arisen, which is the RDFa WG is planning (?) to work on an RDFa API, and that might or might not be subsumed by/related to an RDF API
19:13:36 [noah]
19:13:36 [trackbot]
ACTION-282 -- Jonathan Rees to draft a finding on metadata architecture. -- due 2011-04-01 -- OPEN
19:13:36 [trackbot]
19:13:42 [ht]
... so the question of where that happens, and who drives it, as well as the technical question of the nature of the relation between the two (if there are two) APIs, probably need to be clarified before the charter is baked
19:14:59 [ht]
LM: I have another concern wrt registries, which I'll bring up on email
19:15:07 [timbl]
no prob ht
19:15:32 [ht]
... in the area of preferring URIs to registries, but there are still a lot of registries at IANA, and people are not happy with them
19:16:05 [ht]
LM: Maybe worth framing as a TAG topic
19:16:22 [Zakim]
19:16:53 [Zakim]
19:17:41 [Ashok]
Noah: We could have this as a f2f btopic if you could help frame it.
19:18:00 [noah]
ACTION: Larry to send email framing TAG work on registries
19:18:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-511 - Send email framing TAG work on registries [on Larry Masinter - due 2011-01-20].
19:18:11 [Ashok]
19:18:14 [Zakim]
19:18:15 [Zakim]
19:18:15 [Zakim]
19:18:16 [Zakim]
19:18:19 [johnk]
johnk has left #tagmem
19:18:20 [Zakim]
19:18:21 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
19:18:23 [Zakim]
Attendees were Noah_Mendelsohn, Masinter, Ashok_Malhotra, John_Kemp, TimBL, Yves, ht
21:09:43 [Larry]
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22:56:26 [ht]
RRSAgent, bye
22:56:41 [ht]
RRSAgent, make logs world-visible
22:56:45 [ht]
RRSAgent, bye
22:56:45 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
22:56:45 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Larry to send email framing TAG work on registries [1]
22:56:45 [RRSAgent]
recorded in