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14:53:03 <janina> zakim, this will be html-a11y
14:53:03 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, janina
14:53:16 <MichaelC> zakim, this will be 2119
14:53:16 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
14:54:45 <MichaelC> trackbot, start meeting
14:54:48 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:54:50 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
14:54:50 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
14:54:51 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:54:51 <trackbot> Date: 13 January 2011
14:54:58 <MichaelC> rrsagent, pointer?
14:54:58 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-html-a11y-irc#T14-54-58
14:55:24 <MichaelC> chair: Janina_Sajka, Mike_Smith
14:56:24 <oedipus> regrets: Laura_Carlson,Denis_Boudreau,Silvia_Pfieffer
14:56:42 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has now started
14:56:43 <oedipus> regrets+ Kenny_Johar
14:56:49 <Zakim> +Eric_Carlson
14:57:19 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
14:57:33 <janina> zakim, call janina
14:57:34 <Zakim> ok, janina; the call is being made
14:57:34 <Zakim> +Janina
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14:58:51 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper
14:59:02 <Zakim> +John_Foliot
14:59:07 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
14:59:11 <janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
14:59:11 <janina> Chair: Janina_Sajka & Mike_Smith
14:59:11 <janina> agenda: this
14:59:11 <janina> agenda+ Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
14:59:11 <janina> agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
14:59:12 <janina> agenda+ Issue-122 Lady of Shalott Example http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0246.html
14:59:14 <janina> agenda+ Issue-80 Title as alt text
14:59:16 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike-goog
14:59:16 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
14:59:17 <janina> agenda+ Issue-31 Resolving alt text guidance
14:59:17 <Zakim> +Mike
14:59:19 <janina> agenda+ Issue=133 Modal-Attribute
14:59:21 <janina> agenda+ Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mappings; Media; Bug Triage
14:59:23 <janina> agenda+ Scheduling a Face to Face in 2011
14:59:25 <janina> agenda+ Drag and Drop
14:59:27 <janina> agenda+ Issue-30 longdesc Redux
14:59:29 <janina> agenda+ Keyboard Access Update http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/0105.html
14:59:31 <janina> agenda+ Forms Accessibility
14:59:32 <janina> agenda+ be done
15:00:06 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jan/0127.html
15:00:44 <Zakim> +kliehm
15:00:55 <kliehm> zakim, please mute me
15:00:55 <Zakim> kliehm should now be muted
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15:02:09 <Zakim> -Mike
15:02:52 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike-goog
15:02:52 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:02:53 <Zakim> +Mike
15:03:15 <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
15:03:15 <Zakim> Mike is being disconnected
15:03:17 <Zakim> -Mike
15:03:41 <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
15:03:41 <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I do not see a party named 'Mike'
15:03:44 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike-goog
15:03:44 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:03:45 <Zakim> +Mike
15:06:36 <oedipus> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
15:06:40 <oedipus> scribenick: oedipus
15:07:46 <oedipus> TOPIC: Administrivia
15:07:52 <oedipus> JS: 2  hour meeting - 2 scribes 
15:08:26 <oedipus> JS: hoped laura was going to attend -- wanted to clear up confusion over Issue 122
15:08:31 <oedipus> issue-122?
15:08:31 <trackbot> ISSUE-122 does not exist
15:08:44 <Zakim> + +44.207.391.aaaa
15:08:57 <Marco_Ranon> zakim, +44.207.391.aaaa is me
15:08:57 <Zakim> +Marco_Ranon; got it
15:08:58 <oedipus> JS: 122 (lady of shallot) top of agenda
15:09:00 <MichaelC> html-issue-122?
15:09:07 <Marco_Ranon> zakim, mute me
15:09:07 <Zakim> Marco_Ranon should now be muted
15:09:44 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/purely_decorative_images
15:09:49 <Zakim> -kliehm
15:09:54 <martin_kliehm> martin_kliehm has joined #html-a11y
15:10:03 <oedipus> GJR: above link is fulfillment of action item assigned at HTML WG f2fg
15:10:15 <Zakim> +kliehm
15:11:06 <oedipus> JS: TF approved GJR"s proposal -- then found out laura had competing proposal -- go forward despite that -- lets take a look at her proposal -- need to come to closure on this
15:11:30 <Zakim> +Léonie_Watson
15:12:45 <oedipus> MC: want to compare change proposal from GJR and LauraC -- also older one from SteveF (Steve's is a null proposal)
15:13:01 <oedipus> MC: Laura & GJR put in change proposal after call for counter proposals to SteveF
15:13:02 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/TextAlternativesIssue122 Laura's change proposal on issue-122
15:13:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:13:46 <oedipus> i/f2fg/f2f/
15:13:51 <oedipus> s/f2fg/f2f/
15:14:29 <oedipus> MC: Laura is "remove info about text alternatives"
15:14:44 <oedipus> GJR: my propsal is a refinement of LauraC's proposal
15:14:57 <oedipus> MC: LauraC suggesting that should be WCAG tecniques
15:15:01 <oedipus> JS: not far off mark
15:16:00 <oedipus> GJR: suggested verbiage change and pointed to Alt Techs and WCAG 2.0
15:16:04 <JF> +q
15:16:10 <oedipus> JS: 2 questions: what should document say, where should document live?
15:17:02 <oedipus> JS: propose move to approve GJR propsal as agreed-to at TPAC -- ask Laura to rescind proposal -- WCG needs to discuss how to handle normative advice on @alt text -- should it be in HTML area or in WCAG?
15:17:19 <oedipus> GJR: 2 not mutually exclusive -- tried to do pass-off to both
15:17:23 <oedipus> JS: want to perfect language
15:17:32 <JF> http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
15:17:36 <oedipus> JF: where does SteveF's Alt Techs factor into this mix?
15:17:44 <oedipus> MC: GJR references it, Laura doesn't
15:18:10 <oedipus> JS: same omnibus question -- Laura reacting to someting in consensus guidance on alt text from a year ago -- said all guidance should live in WAI space
15:18:21 <oedipus> JF: going to get pushback from larger group
15:18:35 <oedipus> MC: reason why Steve started alt techs document in HTML5 space
15:18:45 <oedipus> JS: more a policy question for W3C
15:18:58 <oedipus> JF: question is: where do we want definitive guidance to live?
15:19:18 <oedipus> JF: 3 options: inside HTML5 draft, in WCAG Techs or in SteveF's stand-alone draft of alt text techs
15:19:36 <oedipus> JF: all come from collective community in W3C, so we need to make up our minds as to where info should be
15:20:13 <oedipus> MC: agree -- want to exist somewhere rather than nowhere -- steveF's document is applicable to ANY language, so kinda odd that part of HTML5, but on other hand...
15:20:29 <oedipus> JS: still think this is a decision outside of our purview
15:20:57 <oedipus> JF: we need to provide subject matter expertise -- get everything out of HTML5 spec and point to SteveF's doc as current requirements from a11y community
15:21:00 <oedipus> plus 1
15:21:50 <oedipus> JS: trying to take 122 off of our plate in a useful way -- where should live going to take an administrative question -- multiple groups involved -- should be addressed by W3M
15:22:09 <oedipus> MC: if groups agree, could work out ourselves, but seems to be disagreement between TF and WG
15:22:18 <oedipus> JS: where lives separate issue from where it lives
15:22:31 <oedipus> JS: propose that GJR and Laura do not disagree in any substantive way
15:22:48 <oedipus> JS: need to get Laura to submit question of "where" this info should reside
15:23:14 <oedipus> JS: question in 122 is what should guidance say, not where it should live
15:23:42 <oedipus> GJR: answered question in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/purely_decorative_images
15:24:17 <oedipus> JS: not saying don't want to address where should live -- separate issue from what guidance should say -- decoupling the 2 will lead to positive momentum
15:24:48 <oedipus> MC: bring to whom?  WAI CG?  chairs' call for HTML5?  judy?
15:25:17 <oedipus> JS: falls on facillitatators -- 1st step is explain to laura our discussion and decision to decouple what from where
15:25:31 <oedipus> JS: address to chairs and judy jointly -- topic for WAI CG i believe
15:26:06 <oedipus> JS: if WAI CG needs to have a position on where this type of info should reside -- traditionally, that has been in WAI space
15:26:22 <oedipus> JS: want to address issue comprehensively, not ad hoc or case-by-case
15:27:06 <oedipus> ACTION: Janina - talk to Laura about decoupling of "what" from "where" in preparation for discussion in WAI CG
15:27:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:27:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-100 - - talk to Laura about decoupling of "what" from "where" in preparation for discussion in WAI CG [on Janina Sajka - due 2011-01-20].
15:27:27 <oedipus> TOPIC: Issue 80
15:27:49 <oedipus> JS: not clear what status of this is in TF -- resolved at TPAC and have a snag (competing proposal)
15:28:05 <Marco_Ranon> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80
15:28:05 <kliehm> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80
15:28:34 <oedipus> MC: proposal from Steve, null change proposal from hixie, and an older change proposal from hixie
15:28:45 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20091203 Change proposal from Steve
15:29:29 <oedipus> JS: asked Leonie to look at it
15:29:59 <oedipus> LW: steve said he'd help set up change proposal, then realized had already been written -- forwarded to list, but Laura said had been filed, so i am confused as to status
15:30:20 <oedipus> JS: is SteveF's proposal adequate?  reflect conclusions of TPAC f2f meetings?
15:30:25 <oedipus> LW: think is ok
15:30:38 <oedipus> MC: hasn't been substantially changed since april 2010
15:31:24 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html
15:31:40 <oedipus> JF: non-controversial -- saying @title not sufficient for a11y 
15:31:58 <oedipus> LW: agree with JF
15:32:24 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes#item07 Discussion of ISSUE-80 at TPAC 2010
15:32:55 <oedipus> MC: discussing issue 31 and 80 in context with each other -- relationship is affirmed multiple places
15:33:03 <oedipus> MC: hard to grok minutes from TPAC
15:33:29 <oedipus> JS: comfortable that SteveF's proposal reflects the majority opinion of TF
15:33:46 <JF> +1 to that idea
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15:34:16 <oedipus> proposed RESOLUTION: HTML5 A11y TF accepts SteveF's change proposal for HTML Issue-80 on use of @title http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20091203
15:34:38 <oedipus> GJR: objections?
15:34:47 <oedipus> LW: plus 1 -- succinct
15:34:51 <oedipus> JS: need WBS?
15:34:56 <oedipus> MC: probably should
15:35:05 <oedipus> MC: could do 24 hour CfC
15:35:11 <oedipus> JS: make it 48 hours
15:35:51 <oedipus> RESOLUTION: HTML5 A11y TF will have a 48 hour Call for Consensus on acceptance of SteveF's change proposal for HTML Issue-80 on use of @title http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20091203
15:36:26 <oedipus> s/RESOLUTION: HTML5 A11y TF will have a 48 hour Call for Consensus on acceptance of SteveF's change proposal for HTML Issue-80 on use of @title/HTML5 A11y TF accepts SteveF's change proposal for HTML Issue-80 on use of @title/
15:36:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:37:13 <oedipus> i/HTML5 A11y TF accepts SteveF's/RESOLUTION: /
15:37:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:37:23 <oedipus> TOPIC: Issue 31 @alt
15:37:30 <oedipus> JS: change proposal to move forward?
15:37:41 <kliehm> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/31
15:37:50 <oedipus> JS: Laura has proposal she believes covers this
15:38:03 <JF> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElementSurveyConformaceChoices
15:38:10 <oedipus> JF: Laura sent note to list citing wiki page -- dileneating change proposal choices at above URI from JF
15:39:17 <oedipus> MC: pretty helpful albeit gargantuan
15:39:56 <oedipus> JS: Laura very good at collating issues and proposals
15:40:20 <oedipus> s/HTML5 A11y TF accepts SteveF's change proposal for HTML Issue-80 on use of @title/RESOLUTION: HTML5 A11y TF accepts SteveF's change proposal for HTML Issue-80 on use of @title/
15:40:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:40:32 <oedipus> JS: how to procede in TF on this?
15:40:55 <oedipus> JF: without looking at first table (what allowed and what isn't allowed) -- seems to me that what we want is the best solution
15:41:19 <oedipus> JF: seems to me that requirment set 2 meets the definition of sufficient in my mind
15:41:40 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20090126#Rationale
15:42:25 <oedipus> MC: analysis of what each change proposal does -- can survey characteristics and ask  if aria-labelledby should be used, etc. -- get yes and nos to match up to column on Laura's table
15:42:32 <oedipus> JF: or the column that doesn't exist
15:42:38 <oedipus> JF: sounds like right way forward
15:42:43 <Zakim> -Mike
15:42:56 <oedipus> requirement set 2: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20090126
15:43:25 <oedipus> JF: prepared to be flexible on @alt as long as something in its place that works today
15:43:40 <oedipus> JF: aria-labelledby would be acceptable if no @alt
15:43:46 <oedipus> MC: also favor that approach
15:43:48 <oedipus> plus 1
15:43:55 <oedipus> JS: objections to surveying to resolve this issue?
15:44:02 <oedipus> [no objections logged]
15:44:13 <oedipus> JS: WBS is the way forward for this
15:44:23 <oedipus> MC: can prepare survey with 6 yes or no questions
15:44:50 <oedipus> MC: will try and get survey ready in real-time during call when not involved in topics
15:45:02 <oedipus> JS: objectoins?
15:45:06 <oedipus> [none logged]
15:45:15 <oedipus> TOPIC: Issue 133 - Modal Attribute
15:45:18 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike-goog
15:45:18 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:45:19 <Zakim> +Mike
15:45:28 <oedipus> JS: orphaned with Everett's withdrawl -- does not currently have an owner
15:45:29 <Marco_Ranon> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/133
15:45:35 <oedipus> JS: any volunteers?
15:45:52 <oedipus> GJR: took tablist from everett -- someone else should take this up
15:46:37 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10645
15:47:18 <oedipus> JF: question becomes: "what kind of special behavior (if any) are we expecting from the modal thing?
15:48:13 <oedipus> JS: let's define "modal"
15:48:24 <oedipus> GJR: note that hixie marked this as Rationale: Concurred with reporter's comments, but it's still too early.
15:49:13 <Leonie_Watson> Leonie_Watson has joined #html-a11y
15:49:25 <Marco_Ranon> q+
15:49:36 <oedipus> JF: would not the behavior we talked about here be covered by ARIA live regions?  in GUI sense, modal is like a dialog box (such as pop-up) that takes specific focus -- usually modal dialog requires interaction from user before can procede with larger contextual thing dealing with
15:49:39 <oedipus> q?
15:49:42 <oedipus> ack JF
15:49:47 <Marco_Ranon> zakim, unmute me
15:49:47 <Zakim> Marco_Ranon should no longer be muted
15:50:06 <Zakim> -Marco_Ranon
15:50:21 <oedipus> JS: live region in same screen relating to changes in viewport
15:50:25 <oedipus> q?
15:51:13 <oedipus> LW: live region is just a portion of primary page that is updated -- modal is something ancilliary to primary page (pop-up)
15:51:22 <oedipus> LW: modal overlaid on top of it
15:51:45 <Zakim> +Marco_Ranon
15:51:51 <oedipus> JF: Evertt cites wikipedia def of "modal"  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_window
15:52:25 <oedipus> JF: use javascript alert as example -- when presented on screen is that sufficient for AT to know that an alert is present -- add aria live region or is existence of alert enough?
15:52:26 <Marco_Ranon> q?
15:52:33 <oedipus> JF: do we really need a modal attribute
15:53:40 <oedipus> MR: modal dialog in HTML page is something that when tabbing around, can get into that portion of page -- haven't seen good implementations of that -- live box as go through controls -- javascript examples: can't do much with javascript and interactivity
15:53:48 <oedipus> JS: hixie says "this is too soon"
15:53:55 <oedipus> GJR: no no guidance
15:54:24 <oedipus> GJR: state of bug is "CLOSED LATER" no indication of where can be
15:54:37 <oedipus> JF: quotes from hixie about waiting to add -- seems weak
15:54:59 <Marco_Ranon> zakim, mute me
15:54:59 <Zakim> Marco_Ranon should now be muted
15:55:02 <oedipus> JS: MikeSmith, comments? advice? ask ian for more specificity on when?
15:55:54 <JF> when is later?
15:56:00 <oedipus> MS: not going to be productive -- don't think can pin editor down on this -- marked as "CLOSED LATER" -- "Later" state in bugzilla only way to track bugs like this that are not WONTFIX, but open to discussion later
15:56:03 <oedipus> JF: when is leter?
15:56:10 <oedipus> JS: is later HTML5.next?
15:56:17 <oedipus> MS: yes, or can be escalated
15:56:39 <JF> +q
15:56:40 <oedipus> MS: nothing will happen unless someone takes ownership of this and pushes to get escalated
15:56:59 <Marco_Ranon> q-
15:57:17 <oedipus> MS: decision policy from HTML WG side, bug in "correct" state -- comments can still be added to bug http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10645
15:57:24 <janina>  q?
15:57:31 <janina> ack j
15:57:49 <oedipus> JF: concerned about HTML5.next because no timeline or commitment to doing a revision
15:58:16 <oedipus> JF: could this be addressed by ARIA?  talk of ARIA 1.1 closer than HTML5 -- would moving to ARIA solve problem statement with aria-role="modal"
15:58:30 <kliehm> There's aria-role="dialog"
15:58:39 <oedipus> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:58:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see Eric_Carlson, Gregory_Rosmaita, Janina, Michael_Cooper, John_Foliot, Mike, martin_kliehm (muted), Léonie_Watson, Marco_Ranon (muted)
15:59:27 <Marco_Ranon> zakim, unmute me
15:59:27 <Zakim> Marco_Ranon should no longer be muted
15:59:30 <Marco_Ranon> q+
15:59:33 <oedipus> JF: marco mentioned problems with something like whitebox -- if used "dialog" role or newly minted "modal" role suffice?
15:59:50 <oedipus> JS: something we run into regardless of host language, so appropriate to use ARIA to solve -- host language independent
15:59:54 <Marco_Ranon> ack me
16:01:03 <oedipus> MR: if have ARIA role "modal" can use DIV element in HTML5 and AT would be able to put focus in whatever is inside modal DIV -- solve problem by retaining tabindex for element for which is assigned; not quite live region, but interactive without need of javascript
16:01:35 <oedipus> MR: if want to keep focus inside, currently need to use javascript to place focus and breaks tabindex order -- if aria-modal can do that solves problem
16:01:45 <oedipus> JS: should we make a request of the ARIA caucus?
16:01:49 <oedipus> JF: yes
16:01:51 <oedipus> MR: yes
16:01:56 <oedipus> JS: objections?
16:02:09 <oedipus> [no objections logged]
16:02:47 <oedipus> RESOLUTION: ask ARIA Caucus to consider a modal attribute for ARIA to address http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10645
16:03:45 <oedipus> JF: raised resolution to ask aria caucus to look at this bug -- is there an issue associated with it and how to dispose?
16:03:53 <Marco_Ranon> zakim, mute me
16:03:53 <Zakim> Marco_Ranon should now be muted
16:03:59 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/133
16:04:16 <oedipus> JF: move whole problem statement to ARIA
16:04:35 <oedipus> ACTION: GJR - email ARIA Caucus to request a "modal" attribute for ARIA
16:04:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-101 - - email ARIA Caucus to request a "modal" attribute for ARIA [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2011-01-20].
16:04:52 <oedipus> MS: can close without prejudice so can be reoponed later based on new info
16:05:15 <oedipus> MS: remove from current set of issues awaiting decision -- backgrounds it
16:05:37 <oedipus> JF: do we want to wait to hear from ARIA team before close issue?  if say "yes, will take on" then close issue
16:05:39 <oedipus> MS: good p;oint
16:06:48 <oedipus> action-101: this is an attempt at disposition of HTML WG Issue 133: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/133
16:06:48 <trackbot> ACTION-101 - email ARIA Caucus to request a "modal" attribute for ARIA notes added
16:07:41 <MikeSmith> zakim, take up next item
16:07:41 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List" taken up [from janina]
16:08:10 <oedipus> TOPIC: Sub-Team Reports
16:08:20 <oedipus> MS: update on media?
16:09:15 <oedipus> JF: trying very actively to whack away at bugs tagged with media keyword to reduce overall collection of bugs -- discussed and assigned to members of sub-team -- half-a-dozen can be closed we have determined because OBE
16:09:23 <oedipus> JF: feeding info back to martin and cooper
16:10:01 <oedipus> JF: probably got 2 or 3 major outstanding issues need to address A.S.A.P. -- controlling timeline issue around time-shifting -- what to do when require more time for existing media resource?
16:10:10 <oedipus> JF: large issue
16:10:31 <oedipus> JS: shawn has expamples as to how to handle and Silvia pledged to review them
16:11:09 <oedipus> JF: another issue is where we stand with specific time-stamp format -- at point where did gap analysis and comparison for 2 competing specs -- 
16:11:42 <oedipus> JS: been some discussion on that -- may be more tweaks to document, but overall takeaway is "neither has what we need" -- more tightly defined gap analysis may be needed
16:11:52 <oedipus> JS: back on the PFWG agenda
16:12:09 <Zakim> +Rich
16:12:58 <oedipus> JF: have change proposal with regard to the @poster -- which i refer to as "first frame" -- started writing a change proposal hope to have done by weekend -- issue is what alt text and what does it refer to?  discussion about meaning of word poster and applicability -- rename will help in terms of accuracy
16:13:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:13:34 <oedipus> MS: Rich, Canvas update?
16:14:21 <oedipus> RS: working on RTE over the holiday break; also brought AISqaured into discussion (leading screen mag on windows) -- FrankO said via email MS not interested in dealing with RTE at this time
16:14:56 <oedipus> RS: have proposals for caret and FocusRing that need to be integrated into HTML5 -- need sub-team consensus to bring to TF
16:15:22 <Zakim> -martin_kliehm
16:15:28 <oedipus> RS: asked devs to state position: address RTE for HTML5 or no -- can't force them to do it, but need consensus on how to move forward in any event
16:15:53 <oedipus> MS: puts into background until TF receives buy-in from implementors
16:16:23 <oedipus> RS: exposure for HTML5 based on comments from TV community around this -- google working on IME for Canvas -- going to happen
16:16:43 <oedipus> RS: gaping hole in HTML5 currently -- if can't do it, need to have chairs state not going to do and why
16:16:46 <JF> somebody alredy *has* done this in canvas - Bespin
16:17:14 <oedipus> GJR: think bespin is now "skylark"
16:17:38 <oedipus> RS: need to get so can do FocusRing, caret tracking, sub-DOM that maps to a11y APIS 
16:18:23 <oedipus> RS: may need to create a11y API for web that can be managed by UA -- interest from Mozilla and Microsoft -- need to hash out on monday's call -- frankO hasn't been able to attend meetings
16:18:48 <oedipus> RS: told hixie he needs to let subteam to develop what is needed -- even if in diff WG
16:19:36 <oedipus> RS: strategy for canvas: make directly accessible with sub-DOM; other alternative working on with Dave Singer using media queries to express preferences set by user in browser
16:19:54 <oedipus> MS: from HTML WG side, will need to give chairs update on where Canvas is at
16:20:48 <oedipus> MS: after sub-team dsiscussions, need to bring info to HTML WG chairs -- need to tell them if want issue closed without prejudice, or can wait until "times-out" -- can wait until report back from subteams
16:21:06 <oedipus> MS: ARIA-mapping sub-team?
16:21:52 <oedipus> JS: want to defer to bring forward after next ARIA publication announcement -- makes tracking issue cleaner
16:21:59 <oedipus> MS: bug triage?
16:22:22 <Marco_Ranon> zakim, unmute me
16:22:22 <Zakim> Marco_Ranon should no longer be muted
16:23:09 <oedipus> MR: met on tuesday -- we are down to 7 or less bugs to process and apply a11ytf tag; reassigned a few bugs; pretty much done with list Laura gave us
16:23:25 <oedipus> MR: waiting for more work to do arising from TF and WG meetings
16:23:50 <oedipus> MC: have bug-related deadline approaching -- 19 january 2011 
16:24:08 <oedipus> JF: online resource that encapsulates where we stand?
16:24:11 <oedipus> JS: timeline?
16:24:55 <oedipus> JF: status, deadl;ines, relationship to issues -- Laura may already have this info collected -- need common resource for this info
16:25:10 <oedipus> MR: not aware of such a resource
16:25:30 <oedipus> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:25:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see Eric_Carlson, Gregory_Rosmaita, Janina, Michael_Cooper, John_Foliot, Mike, Léonie_Watson, Marco_Ranon, Rich
16:25:45 <oedipus> MR: best resource is bug report laura sends every week
16:26:06 <oedipus> MS: no resource to track bugs that haven't been escalated, but that is what Laura has been maintaining
16:26:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:26:28 <oedipus> MS: sounds like things are on track in subteams
16:26:51 <oedipus> TOPIC: Face2Face meeting First Quarter of 2011
16:26:57 <oedipus> MS: discussed with JS and MC -- have proposal
16:26:57 <Marco_Ranon> zakim, mute me
16:26:57 <Zakim> Marco_Ranon should now be muted
16:27:08 <oedipus> JS: not yet sent to list
16:27:28 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/q1-2011_ftf/results Face to face scheduling survey results
16:27:30 <oedipus> JS: propose 2 options -- friday saturday 1 option 
16:27:51 <oedipus> MS: end of CSUN week in San Diego or near
16:28:34 <oedipus> MC: overlapping CSUN best for those who answered survey -- before CSUN has a lot of conflict -- partial overlap approach best -- tuesday and wednesday or friday and saturday (no presenations at CSUN on satrurday
16:29:00 <oedipus> RS: during CSUN could be problematic
16:29:11 <oedipus> JS: third possibility is don't overlap and go saturday and sunday
16:29:22 <oedipus> RS: have several presentations slated for CSUN
16:29:47 <oedipus> RS: still up in air as to when presentations will be held
16:30:23 <oedipus> RS: hanging fire on scheduling other meetings -- meeting during CSUN is problemmatic -- need 2 whole days
16:30:47 <oedipus> MC: either at beginning or end - 1 day out of CSUN plus an extra day (friday/saturday)
16:31:11 <oedipus> RS: no presentations on friday at present
16:31:17 <oedipus> JF: saturday and sunday best for me
16:31:19 <oedipus> RS: me too
16:31:28 <oedipus> LW: could then only stay for saturday
16:31:39 <oedipus> JS: MS sponsoring so probably in same hotel 
16:32:10 <oedipus> RS: need F2F to get alot of these issues involved -- 
16:32:33 <oedipus> MS: imortant to have Rich and his time
16:32:55 <oedipus> RS: CSUN schedule is screwed up right now -- don't know if have full schedule on friday
16:33:20 <oedipus> JF: going to look into conference scheduling next week, but not a garuntee
16:33:35 <oedipus> RS: may have to move presentations to saturday to clean up scheduling mess
16:34:30 <oedipus> JF: if we get to CSUN schedulers before reassign sessions, ask not to schedule any TF member attending CSUN for saturday so can do HTML A11y stuff
16:34:47 <oedipus> MC: least overlap is saturday
16:35:08 <oedipus> JF: if provide them with list of names, can feed to mike paciello so can consider when rescheduleing
16:35:17 <oedipus> JS: want JF to do that, and want saturday and sunday
16:35:44 <oedipus> MC: would lose David Singer by switching -- unavailable from 19 march 2011 onwares
16:36:26 <oedipus> MC: few people we might looose -- Geoff Fried, Jon Gunderson, 
16:36:32 <oedipus> MC: can request flexibility
16:36:40 <oedipus> RS: would like to get David Bolter at meetings
16:36:48 <oedipus> JS: saturday sunday seems best option
16:36:55 <oedipus> JF: with heavy lifting on saturday
16:37:09 <oedipus> JF: if take care of most contentious issues on saturday, can mop up on sunday
16:37:17 <oedipus> RS: FrankO availability?
16:37:21 <oedipus> MC: didn't fill out form
16:37:25 <oedipus> RS: SteveF?
16:37:29 <oedipus> MC: didn't fill out form
16:37:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:38:22 <oedipus> DB: david bolter will be at CSUN tuesday through thursday night
16:38:41 <oedipus> DB: can you attend remotely if on saturday or sunday
16:39:04 <oedipus> s/DB: can you attend remotely if on saturday or sunday/davidb, can you attend remotely on saturday or sunday/
16:39:20 <oedipus> davidb, can you attend remotely on the weekend following CSUN?
16:39:29 <davidb> I'll have daughters in the same room but yeah
16:39:40 <oedipus> thanks, david
16:39:43 <davidb> np
16:40:15 <oedipus> proposed RESOLUTION: HTML TF will meet on the Saturday and Sunday immediately following CSUN
16:40:35 <oedipus> proposed RESOLUTION: HTML TF will meet on the Saturday and Sunday (january 19th and 20th)
16:40:48 <oedipus> proposed RESOLUTION: HTML TF will meet in face2face meetings on the Saturday and Sunday (january 19th and 20th)
16:40:51 <oedipus> RESOLUTION: HTML TF will meet in face2face meetings on the Saturday and Sunday (january 19th and 20th)
16:41:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:41:48 <oedipus> MS: need to announce to TF -- cooper, can you send out announcement to list?
16:41:50 <oedipus> MC: sure
16:42:36 <oedipus> MS: next on agenda are topics open for a while -- choose 1 or 2 of these?
16:42:57 <oedipus> MS: drag'n'drop, keyboard access, forms accessibility,
16:43:09 <oedipus> JS: like action on ISSUE-30 to draft request to reconsider
16:43:21 <oedipus> JS: based on wiki and laura's research
16:44:09 <oedipus> ACTION: Janina - draft request for reconsideration on Issue-30
16:44:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-102 - - draft request for reconsideration on Issue-30 [on Janina Sajka - due 2011-01-20].
16:44:49 <oedipus> MS: one more thing about f2f -- want to see if Paul Cotton might be able to attend -- i will follow up on that
16:44:55 <oedipus> JS: great idea -- same time zone
16:45:13 <oedipus> MS: been regular on a11y TF calls, would be beneficial to have him at f2f
16:45:40 <oedipus> JS: remaining issues -- forms, keyboard access, drag'n'drop (currently without assignee)
16:46:06 <oedipus> GJR and LW will coordinate on forms
16:46:18 <oedipus> MS: drag'n'drop -- been spec changes since last discussed in TF
16:46:56 <oedipus> MS: are they sufficient to address any of the TF bugs or questions, i don't know -- would be good to have somewone review them -- perhaps ask Gez to review spec changes to ascertain if address concerns raised in TF
16:47:00 <oedipus> JS: good starting point
16:47:29 <oedipus> JS: language changes versus spec changes -- going back to Gez to review changes seems most logical starting point to move on closing issue
16:47:53 <oedipus> MS: will follow up on that with Gez
16:48:28 <oedipus> MS: going to review related bugs to see if still relate to open issue and whether OBE
16:50:23 <oedipus> JS: postpone discussion of reconsideration of Issue-30 until next week
16:50:42 <oedipus> MS: any other business?
16:50:50 <oedipus> [none]
16:51:14 <oedipus> RS: proposal for change to section on tables being used for presentational purposes
16:51:20 <oedipus> MS: went to chairs, right?
16:52:01 <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Dec/thread.html#msg132
16:52:25 <oedipus> MS: response from Sam Ruby at previous URI -- issue 130
16:52:46 <oedipus> MS: only change on HTML WG side is issue is reopened (had been closed without prejudice) so awaiting action from chairs
16:53:21 <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-130
16:53:27 <oedipus> GJR: still have the @summary / summary as attribute or element
16:54:05 <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-032
16:54:42 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/summary_element
16:54:56 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/201101-issue-31/ Text alternatives survey
16:55:07 <oedipus> MC: 1 other new/continuing business -- text alternative survey is ready but not yet open
16:55:30 <oedipus> [MC reads survey text]
16:58:02 <oedipus> JF: only comment is all of these alternatives -- should @alt be mandatory or optional 
16:58:25 <oedipus> MC: interested in providing text alternatives -- one mechanism is @alt -- there are others being considered
16:58:35 <oedipus> MC: didn't understand this being "in case of the absence of alt"
16:58:39 <oedipus> plus 1 to add to intro
16:59:29 <oedipus> JF: [reads from issue statement]
16:59:38 <oedipus> MC: added verbiage to intro to survey
17:00:05 <oedipus> MC: propose keep survey open a week
17:00:09 <oedipus> JS: sounds reasonable
17:00:39 <oedipus> MC: deadline for http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/201101-issue-31/ 20 january 2011 
17:01:05 <oedipus> MS: other business?
17:01:20 <Marco_Ranon> zakim, unmute me
17:01:20 <Zakim> Marco_Ranon should no longer be muted
17:01:21 <Zakim> -John_Foliot
17:01:21 <Zakim> -Eric_Carlson
17:01:21 <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
17:01:22 <Zakim> Mike is being disconnected
17:01:22 <Zakim> -Mike
17:01:23 <Zakim> -Léonie_Watson
17:01:24 <oedipus> JS: thanks to everybody for coming early -- especially U.S. west coasters
17:01:25 <Zakim> -Janina
17:01:26 <oedipus> [adjourn]
17:01:27 <Zakim> -Rich
17:01:29 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
17:01:31 <janina> janina has left #html-a11y
17:01:41 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
17:01:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:01:53 <oedipus> zakim, please part
17:01:56 <Zakim> -Marco_Ranon
17:02:00 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has ended
17:02:06 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-a11y
17:02:08 <Zakim> Attendees were Eric_Carlson, Gregory_Rosmaita, Janina, Michael_Cooper, John_Foliot, Mike, Marco_Ranon, martin_kliehm, Léonie_Watson, Rich
17:02:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:03:15 <oedipus> i/MS: next on agenda are topics open for a while/TOPIC: Disposition of Long-Standing Agenda Items/
17:03:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:14:47 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/12-html-a11y-actions.rdf :
17:14:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Janina to annotate 9452 with clear audio discovery and selection, as well as independent control of multiple playback tracks [1]
17:14:47 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/12-html-a11y-irc#T23-20-30
17:14:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Janina - talk to Laura about decoupling of "what" from "where" in preparation for discussion in WAI CG [2]
17:14:47 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-html-a11y-irc#T15-27-06
17:14:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: GJR - email ARIA Caucus to request a "modal" attribute for ARIA [3]
17:14:47 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-html-a11y-irc#T16-04-35
17:14:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Janina - draft request for reconsideration on Issue-30 [4]
17:14:47 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-html-a11y-irc#T16-44-09