IRC log of html-a11y on 2011-01-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

21:56:28 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
21:56:28 [RRSAgent]
logging to
21:56:34 [janina]
zakim, this will be html-a11y
21:56:35 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, janina
21:56:48 [JF]
JF has joined #html-a11y
21:57:07 [janina]
zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(A11Y)
21:57:07 [Zakim]
ok, janina; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
21:57:19 [JF]
JF waves
21:57:20 [janina]
zakim, call janina
21:57:20 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
21:57:21 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:00PM has now started
21:57:23 [Zakim]
21:58:18 [Zakim]
21:58:26 [janina]
Oh no, Silvia! Sorry to hear this!
21:58:44 [janina]
Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
21:58:44 [janina]
Chair: John_Foliot
21:58:44 [janina]
agenda: this
21:58:44 [janina]
agenda+ Identify Scribe
21:58:44 [janina]
agenda+ Actions Review
21:58:45 [janina]
agenda+ Continued Itemized Bugs Review -- See itemization below
21:58:47 [janina]
agenda+ Synchronizing Multiple Binary Assets
21:58:49 [janina]
agenda+ Media Queries on Track
21:58:51 [janina]
agenda+ Poster Issue
21:58:53 [janina]
agenda+ Media TextFormats Accessibility Comparison Summary Redux
21:58:55 [janina]
agenda+ Other Business?
21:58:57 [janina]
agenda+ be done
21:59:05 [Zakim]
21:59:08 [janina]
scribe: janina
21:59:45 [Sean]
Sean has joined #html-a11y
21:59:48 [gfreed]
gfreed has joined #html-a11y
22:00:27 [Judy]
Judy has joined #html-a11y
22:00:44 [Judy]
zakim, who's here?
22:00:44 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Janina, John_Foliot, Judy
22:00:45 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Judy, gfreed, Sean, JF, RRSAgent, Zakim, silvia, janina, MichaelC, [tm], oedipus, MikeSmith, trackbot
22:00:46 [janina]
zakim, take up item 1
22:00:46 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Identify Scribe" taken up [from janina]
22:00:48 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.822.aaaa
22:00:56 [janina]
scribenic: janina
22:01:03 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.365.aabb
22:01:04 [janina]
zakim, close item 1
22:01:05 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Identify Scribe, closed
22:01:06 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:01:07 [Zakim]
2. Actions Review [from janina]
22:01:30 [janina]
zakim, +1.617.365.aabb is Geoff_Freed
22:01:30 [Zakim]
+Geoff_Freed; got it
22:01:59 [janina]
zakim, +1.425.822.aaaa is Sean_Hayes
22:01:59 [Zakim]
+Sean_Hayes; got it
22:02:18 [janina]
zakim, next item
22:02:18 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Actions Review" taken up [from janina]
22:04:14 [Zakim]
22:04:48 [janina]
zakim, close action-8
22:04:48 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'close action-8', janina
22:05:08 [janina]
zakim, close ACTION-8
22:05:08 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'close ACTION-8', janina
22:05:19 [janina]
rrsagent, close action-8
22:05:19 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'close action-8', janina. Try /msg RRSAgent help
22:05:40 [janina]
Silvia, we're wondering if we can reassign action-8 to you?
22:06:00 [silvia]
do we have a link to action-8?
22:06:00 [JF]
Silvia, are you able/willing to take on action item 88? Review Media Fragment URI 1.0
22:06:22 [janina]
rrsagent, make log public
22:06:29 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
22:06:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate janina
22:07:19 [silvia]
ah! well, I am part of the team that wrote the Media Fragment URI 1.0 spec, so it would be kinda useless for me to review it
22:08:25 [silvia]
you'll notice I am one of the authors
22:09:32 [janina]
OK, Silvia. That makes sense. We'll kick this action back to PF (where it came from).
22:09:59 [janina]
Next, Bug 1195 -- Qualify success criteria
22:11:34 [janina]
We'll follow up on this at the main TF call tomorrow.
22:11:39 [janina]
zakim, next agenda
22:11:39 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Continued Itemized Bugs Review -- See itemization below" taken up [from janina]
22:12:09 [janina]
Bug 8657 -- Eric?
22:12:18 [janina]
Allow UA to reload fallback content ...
22:12:52 [janina]
Q: Should a video start playing if additional "fallback" content not fully loaded?
22:12:57 [janina]
We thought not last week.
22:13:34 [janina]
EC: Sean is correct. External track considered "ready" even if not loading.
22:14:06 [janina]
EC: So, what should the behavior be if caption track loads more lowly than main resource?
22:14:17 [janina]
EC: Not sure that was the initial intent of this bug, though.
22:14:18 [MikeSmith]
MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y
22:14:52 [janina]
SH: If text track is hidden, can still be considered "ready." Also concerning.
22:15:25 [janina]
SH: Not sure "ready" should be allowed if something fails to load.
22:15:57 [silvia]
I think we are confusing the ready state of the media with the ready state of the caption track
22:16:12 [silvia]
there are two independent ready states
22:16:17 [janina]
EC: There's "have metadata" to indicate when enough of a file is available to know what it is, and enough to render a single frame
22:16:35 [janina]
SH: Need some kind of buffering mechanism
22:17:12 [janina]
EC: There are two states beyond the single-frame, finally a state that goes to eof
22:17:34 [janina]
EC: State can go up and down.
22:18:09 [janina]
EC: Agreeing with Silvia, thought Sean asking about how this fits with main resource.
22:19:29 [janina]
EC: We may be getting caption data, but not know ...
22:19:31 [silvia]
I assume if the main resource has an error state, there will be no attempt to load the text tracks
22:19:42 [janina]
SH: But captions for an hour's movie is still pretty small data
22:19:51 [silvia]
if the main resource loads, then an attempt to load the text tracks will happen, too
22:20:18 [silvia]
this can succeed (i.e. LOADING or LOADED state) or fail (ERROR state)
22:20:31 [janina]
Silvia, I think the concern is that the video not play if the attempt to load the text track fails, or is delayed
22:20:44 [silvia]
if it succeeds, the tracks are available for display - if not, they are not
22:21:28 [janina]
SH: Think we can close this bug as it's about fallback, but we're discussing a different bug.
22:21:29 [silvia]
should a broken text track really stop a perfectly fine video from playing?
22:22:17 [janina]
Silvia, are you saying that the movie doesn't play if the attempt to load text track has not yet finished?
22:23:49 [silvia]
if a text track is to be loaded and thus the browser goes from NONE to LOADING state, it probably makes sense for the playback to wait a bit
22:24:02 [janina]
GF: If user said, want captions, need to indicate they didn't load, proceed anyway?
22:25:10 [silvia]
if after an acceptable waiting time the captions haven't loaded, the caption track should probably transition to ERROR state and an indication being shown on screen, but the video start playback
22:25:16 [janina]
SH: Perhaps ua not required to play video if indicated resource unavailable
22:25:30 [silvia]
then it is up to the user to decide if they want to accept the video without captions or try a different track manually
22:26:22 [silvia]
I'm just considering that a video that hasn't got any captions available will also play and not be stopped by an accessibility requirement of a user
22:26:46 [silvia]
so if a caption load fails, this is the same fallback situation
22:28:09 [janina]
GF: Ideal to let the user know that error has made my default requirements unavailable this time.
22:28:24 [janina]
EC: Yes, but that's not html spec, it's ua
22:29:19 [silvia]
a message such as "english caption track failed to load" would certainly be helpful
22:30:25 [janina]
SH: It's 'should' so there's wiggle room for the ua
22:30:33 [silvia]
similarly a message to the screen reader about "english text descriptions failed to load" would be good, too
22:30:51 [janina]
Silvia, won't be a screen reader with captions, though. Probably only the browser
22:31:16 [janina]
JF: Close 8657, not what we're discussing here
22:31:23 [silvia]
janina: <track> also supports text descriptions
22:31:49 [janina]
Yes, in that case could be screen reader
22:32:22 [janina]
JF: Hand this to UAWG?
22:34:36 [janina]
RESOLUTION: We will suggest UAWG describes proper behavior when alternate content representation not loaded and an error is generated.
22:34:54 [silvia]
it could be useful to add a note to the spec that UAs should indicate (visually or aurally) to the user if a text track that was deemed to load failed
22:35:18 [janina]
Bug 8673 -- not yet ready ...
22:35:25 [silvia]
it's clearly a UA thing though, so I am happy with the resolution
22:36:33 [janina]
zakim, drop janina
22:36:33 [Zakim]
Janina is being disconnected
22:36:35 [Zakim]
22:36:40 [janina]
zakim, call janina
22:36:40 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
22:36:42 [Zakim]
22:37:09 [janina]
zakim, drop janina
22:37:09 [Zakim]
Janina is being disconnected
22:37:11 [Zakim]
22:37:18 [janina]
zakim, call janina
22:37:18 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
22:37:20 [Zakim]
22:39:36 [Zakim]
22:40:03 [Judy]
22:41:04 [Judy]
sean: we need to capture best practices on captions
22:41:51 [JF]
Group decision to report back - concur with Editor on bug #9774 - not a valid issue - pass
22:43:11 [janina]
zakim, call janina
22:43:11 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
22:43:12 [Zakim]
22:43:13 [JF]
JF - asking Sean if we can capture potential authoring issue as he identified?
22:43:56 [janina]
scribenic: janina
22:44:01 [Zakim]
22:44:17 [JF]
Sean: what happens if caption is position such that the captions are position outside of a readable region - possible that an author can do so
22:44:42 [janina]
SH: It might be possible to set 0 picsel size, can't prevent authors from doing something stupid
22:44:46 [JF]
not something that can be mandated in a spec, but it is important author guidance
22:44:58 [janina]
SH: wcag doesn't explain captions, though, so best practices not provided that way
22:45:17 [janina]
SH: perhaps existing knwledge should be captured as wcag techniques
22:45:22 [Zakim]
22:45:29 [JF]
suspicion that this should be formulated as a WCAG success technique
22:45:31 [janina]
GF: No single source of agreed caption guidelines, a neutral place like wcag a good spot
22:45:36 [janina]
GF: Happy to help with this
22:45:51 [Judy]
22:46:30 [janina]
JB: This is important info, esp that people are approaching in parallel, but not coordinated in a neutral repository
22:46:53 [janina]
JB: Would like to se this go forward
22:46:59 [janina]
GF: Should also consider descriptions
22:47:18 [Judy]
JB: absolutely
22:47:56 [janina]
JF: Suggesting that SH and GF create a statement to be forwarded to WCAG
22:48:23 [janina]
action sean to create a statement with geoff to forward need for caption and description techniques for wcag
22:48:23 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-98 - Create a statement with geoff to forward need for caption and description techniques for wcag [on Sean Hayes - due 2011-01-19].
22:48:50 [janina]
Bug 10693
22:49:10 [janina]
Silvia, can you join the call for a few minutes about this bug?
22:49:32 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
22:49:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate janina
22:49:46 [silvia]
am in Germany and not near a phone, sorry
22:50:02 [janina]
What, no phones in Germany!!!
22:50:22 [janina]
Can you look at Bug 10693 and say whether you can follow up on it?
22:50:40 [janina]
Bug 10841
22:50:41 [silvia]
I will have to follow up indeed
22:51:07 [janina]
John filed this just ahead of last call cut off ...
22:51:29 [janina]
What to do when a descriptive track is longer than the primary resource time?
22:52:29 [janina]
GF: How to know is first question
22:52:43 [janina]
GF: What to do should be pin preference; Stop movie automatically?
22:53:13 [janina]
GF: If recorded audio, not too hard to tell
22:53:17 [janina]
GF: But, what if text?
22:53:39 [janina]
SH: Can think of algo with audio
22:54:21 [janina]
SH: Also ok in SAPI for TTS
22:54:28 [janina]
GF: agree on mechanisms
22:55:23 [janina]
SH: I just pause every description, very simple
22:55:54 [janina]
JF: Does this require discrete control?
22:56:13 [janina]
JF: A pause button for main resource, another for description?
22:56:17 [janina]
SH: Not necessary
22:56:40 [janina]
SH: Pause the main resource when playing the description; cycling mechanism
22:57:05 [janina]
SH: Thought it was a cognitive disability question, someone wants a lot more time
22:58:17 [gfreed]
i have to run.
22:58:25 [janina]
Thanks, Geoff!
22:58:29 [gfreed]
will read the minutes for the rest of this thread.
22:58:37 [Zakim]
22:58:40 [silvia]
we actually discussed this during a meeting at IBM Japan and we thought that a "extend timeline" marker would be helpful - then the author can signal to the browser to wait for the screen reader to finish
22:58:49 [silvia]
some more details at
22:59:54 [silvia]
I do agree that we haven't currently got a mechanism to deal with extended text descriptions
23:00:15 [silvia]
I believe experiments are necessary
23:00:42 [janina]
SH: Works because doesn't rely on screen reader. TTS is generated directly fot eh rendering
23:02:35 [janina]
JF: Can keep this open, as needing testing and more discussion. We will also note that non screen reader mechanisms need to be considered.
23:02:49 [janina]
EC: Not sure we can solve by the time the spec is done
23:03:29 [janina]
SH: Agree
23:03:47 [janina]
SH: Main thing is to make sure there are enough hooks to make sure we can do the right thing
23:03:54 [janina]
EC: Agree
23:05:01 [janina]
SH: I already have demos that work with HTML5 browser
23:05:05 [janina]
EC: Silvia has also
23:05:45 [silvia]
Sean: are you doing extended descriptions? I am only doing synchronized descriptions
23:06:02 [Sean]
23:06:42 [silvia]
(apologies if I have seen it before - I don't remember)
23:06:56 [janina]
DRAFT RESOLUTION: We believe this is about UA behaviior, and the spec should only provide sufficient resources for UA to create compelling solutions.
23:07:18 [janina]
We believe those sufficient hooks already exist in the spec.
23:07:25 [janina]
Silvia: Are you OK?
23:07:35 [silvia]
with this resolution?
23:07:37 [janina]
23:07:58 [silvia]
I am not 100% sure we already have everything we need - I believe some extra markup may be necessary in descriptions
23:08:27 [janina]
Silvia, Can you elaborate further on next week's call?
23:08:51 [silvia]
if Sean has an example that we can all look at and that doesn't need anything extra, that would be fine, too
23:09:11 [janina]
Silvia, Shawn will follow up with you.
23:09:16 [silvia]
23:09:21 [janina]
Bug 10842
23:09:24 [JF]
Bug 10842 - Support the isolation of speech from other background sounds in AV media
23:09:27 [janina]
The "Clear Audio" case
23:10:38 [janina]
It's about production, but if packaged in with main media there's currently no api to determine, expose, select, etc.
23:12:00 [janina]
Agreement that we need to solve this when we solve alternate lang, recorded audio description, sign lang translation, etc.
23:12:22 [janina]
Silvia, isn't there another bug that better represents this problem?
23:12:24 [silvia]
yes, the multitrack API
23:12:30 [JF]
bug number?
23:12:47 [silvia]
it's not "better", but just a different aspect of the same bug
23:13:14 [silvia]
23:13:41 [janina]
So, we close 10842 in preference for 9452?
23:13:51 [janina]
SH: Link this one to 9452
23:13:54 [silvia]
I wanted to spend a day putting a proposal together which we can further discuss - haven't had the time yuet
23:14:34 [silvia]
we had some good email discussions
23:14:42 [janina]
Close this one, and add Clear Audio to 9452
23:15:19 [silvia]
I would recommend keeping both around
23:15:45 [silvia]
even if we have multitrack, we still need an API to separately control the volume of the tracks
23:15:56 [silvia]
is sort-of a next step issue
23:16:24 [silvia]
we can put a message in 10842 though that it relates to 9452
23:16:48 [silvia]
and maybe even waits for resolution for 9452
23:16:51 [janina]
Yes, but 10842 implies that creating clear audio is a ua technology, and that's something we need to dispose of. It isn't.
23:18:38 [silvia]
it needs more info, namely that the separate control of volume of different tracks does not require audio analysis, but only separate volume control through an API
23:19:26 [MikeSmith]
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23:19:30 [silvia]
if you want, I can add a sentence
23:19:35 [janina]
Silvia, we need to be closing bugs. We're proposing to capture the need for discovery, plus the need for independent control of multiple tracks with 9452.
23:19:57 [janina]
Independent control of multiple tracks is also in our reqs.
23:20:30 [janina]
ACTION: Janina to annotate 9452 with clear audio discovery and selection, as well as independent control of multiple playback tracks
23:20:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-99 - Annotate 9452 with clear audio discovery and selection, as well as independent control of multiple playback tracks [on Janina Sajka - due 2011-01-19].
23:21:30 [JF]
new audio WG - see:
23:23:08 [JF]
Decsion: once janina completes Action-99, close bug 10842
23:23:36 [gfreed]
gfreed has left #html-a11y
23:28:12 [janina]
Discussion of whether the proposed Audio API WG can take our issues for controls. Feeling of most is that it isn't.
23:28:29 [janina]
It will be very late, and is not currently scoped for controls.
23:29:21 [janina]
JF: Remaining is 4 bugs for next week?
23:29:33 [janina]
EC: A question for the Chairs as to when we should resolve these?
23:31:01 [Zakim]
23:31:02 [Zakim]
23:31:04 [Zakim]
23:31:08 [janina]
zakim, bye
23:31:08 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Janina, John_Foliot, Judy, Geoff_Freed, Sean_Hayes, Eric_Carlson
23:31:08 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-a11y
23:31:16 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
23:31:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate janina
23:37:04 [silvia]