21:56:28 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y 21:56:28 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/12-html-a11y-irc 21:56:34 zakim, this will be html-a11y 21:56:35 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, janina 21:56:48 JF has joined #html-a11y 21:57:07 zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(A11Y) 21:57:07 ok, janina; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes 21:57:19 JF waves 21:57:20 zakim, call janina 21:57:20 ok, janina; the call is being made 21:57:21 WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:00PM has now started 21:57:23 +Janina 21:58:18 +John_Foliot 21:58:26 Oh no, Silvia! Sorry to hear this! 21:58:44 Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon 21:58:44 Chair: John_Foliot 21:58:44 agenda: this 21:58:44 agenda+ Identify Scribe 21:58:44 agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open 21:58:45 agenda+ Continued Itemized Bugs Review -- See itemization below 21:58:47 agenda+ Synchronizing Multiple Binary Assets 21:58:49 agenda+ Media Queries on Track http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Dec/0145.html 21:58:51 agenda+ Poster Issue http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Dec/0054.html 21:58:53 agenda+ Media TextFormats Accessibility Comparison Summary Redux 21:58:55 agenda+ Other Business? 21:58:57 agenda+ be done 21:59:05 +Judy 21:59:08 scribe: janina 21:59:45 Sean has joined #html-a11y 21:59:48 gfreed has joined #html-a11y 22:00:27 Judy has joined #html-a11y 22:00:44 zakim, who's here? 22:00:44 On the phone I see Janina, John_Foliot, Judy 22:00:45 On IRC I see Judy, gfreed, Sean, JF, RRSAgent, Zakim, silvia, janina, MichaelC, [tm], oedipus, MikeSmith, trackbot 22:00:46 zakim, take up item 1 22:00:46 agendum 1. "Identify Scribe" taken up [from janina] 22:00:48 + +1.425.822.aaaa 22:00:56 scribenic: janina 22:01:03 + +1.617.365.aabb 22:01:04 zakim, close item 1 22:01:05 agendum 1, Identify Scribe, closed 22:01:06 I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 22:01:07 2. Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open [from janina] 22:01:30 zakim, +1.617.365.aabb is Geoff_Freed 22:01:30 +Geoff_Freed; got it 22:01:59 zakim, +1.425.822.aaaa is Sean_Hayes 22:01:59 +Sean_Hayes; got it 22:02:18 zakim, next item 22:02:18 agendum 2. "Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open" taken up [from janina] 22:04:14 +Eric_Carlson 22:04:48 zakim, close action-8 22:04:48 I don't understand 'close action-8', janina 22:05:08 zakim, close ACTION-8 22:05:08 I don't understand 'close ACTION-8', janina 22:05:19 rrsagent, close action-8 22:05:19 I'm logging. I don't understand 'close action-8', janina. Try /msg RRSAgent help 22:05:40 Silvia, we're wondering if we can reassign action-8 to you? 22:06:00 do we have a link to action-8? 22:06:00 Silvia, are you able/willing to take on action item 88? Review Media Fragment URI 1.0 http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-media-frags-20100624/ 22:06:22 rrsagent, make log public 22:06:29 rrsagent, make minutes 22:06:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/12-html-a11y-minutes.html janina 22:07:19 ah! well, I am part of the team that wrote the Media Fragment URI 1.0 spec, so it would be kinda useless for me to review it 22:08:25 you'll notice I am one of the authors 22:09:32 OK, Silvia. That makes sense. We'll kick this action back to PF (where it came from). 22:09:59 Next, Bug 1195 -- Qualify success criteria 22:11:34 We'll follow up on this at the main TF call tomorrow. 22:11:39 zakim, next agenda 22:11:39 agendum 3. "Continued Itemized Bugs Review -- See itemization below" taken up [from janina] 22:12:09 Bug 8657 -- Eric? 22:12:18 Allow UA to reload fallback content ... 22:12:52 Q: Should a video start playing if additional "fallback" content not fully loaded? 22:12:57 We thought not last week. 22:13:34 EC: Sean is correct. External track considered "ready" even if not loading. 22:14:06 EC: So, what should the behavior be if caption track loads more lowly than main resource? 22:14:17 EC: Not sure that was the initial intent of this bug, though. 22:14:18 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y 22:14:52 SH: If text track is hidden, can still be considered "ready." Also concerning. 22:15:25 SH: Not sure "ready" should be allowed if something fails to load. 22:15:57 I think we are confusing the ready state of the media with the ready state of the caption track 22:16:12 there are two independent ready states 22:16:17 EC: There's "have metadata" to indicate when enough of a file is available to know what it is, and enough to render a single frame 22:16:35 SH: Need some kind of buffering mechanism 22:17:12 EC: There are two states beyond the single-frame, finally a state that goes to eof 22:17:34 EC: State can go up and down. 22:18:09 EC: Agreeing with Silvia, thought Sean asking about how this fits with main resource. 22:19:29 EC: We may be getting caption data, but not know ... 22:19:31 I assume if the main resource has an error state, there will be no attempt to load the text tracks 22:19:42 SH: But captions for an hour's movie is still pretty small data 22:19:51 if the main resource loads, then an attempt to load the text tracks will happen, too 22:20:18 this can succeed (i.e. LOADING or LOADED state) or fail (ERROR state) 22:20:31 Silvia, I think the concern is that the video not play if the attempt to load the text track fails, or is delayed 22:20:44 if it succeeds, the tracks are available for display - if not, they are not 22:21:28 SH: Think we can close this bug as it's about fallback, but we're discussing a different bug. 22:21:29 should a broken text track really stop a perfectly fine video from playing? 22:22:17 Silvia, are you saying that the movie doesn't play if the attempt to load text track has not yet finished? 22:23:49 if a text track is to be loaded and thus the browser goes from NONE to LOADING state, it probably makes sense for the playback to wait a bit 22:24:02 GF: If user said, want captions, need to indicate they didn't load, proceed anyway? 22:25:10 if after an acceptable waiting time the captions haven't loaded, the caption track should probably transition to ERROR state and an indication being shown on screen, but the video start playback 22:25:16 SH: Perhaps ua not required to play video if indicated resource unavailable 22:25:30 then it is up to the user to decide if they want to accept the video without captions or try a different track manually 22:26:22 I'm just considering that a video that hasn't got any captions available will also play and not be stopped by an accessibility requirement of a user 22:26:46 so if a caption load fails, this is the same fallback situation 22:28:09 GF: Ideal to let the user know that error has made my default requirements unavailable this time. 22:28:24 EC: Yes, but that's not html spec, it's ua 22:29:19 a message such as "english caption track failed to load" would certainly be helpful 22:30:25 SH: It's 'should' so there's wiggle room for the ua 22:30:33 similarly a message to the screen reader about "english text descriptions failed to load" would be good, too 22:30:51 Silvia, won't be a screen reader with captions, though. Probably only the browser 22:31:16 JF: Close 8657, not what we're discussing here 22:31:23 janina: also supports text descriptions 22:31:49 Yes, in that case could be screen reader 22:32:22 JF: Hand this to UAWG? 22:34:36 RESOLUTION: We will suggest UAWG describes proper behavior when alternate content representation not loaded and an error is generated. 22:34:54 it could be useful to add a note to the spec that UAs should indicate (visually or aurally) to the user if a text track that was deemed to load failed 22:35:18 Bug 8673 -- not yet ready ... 22:35:25 it's clearly a UA thing though, so I am happy with the resolution 22:36:33 zakim, drop janina 22:36:33 Janina is being disconnected 22:36:35 -Janina 22:36:40 zakim, call janina 22:36:40 ok, janina; the call is being made 22:36:42 +Janina 22:37:09 zakim, drop janina 22:37:09 Janina is being disconnected 22:37:11 -Janina 22:37:18 zakim, call janina 22:37:18 ok, janina; the call is being made 22:37:20 +Janina 22:39:36 -Janina 22:40:03 q+ 22:41:04 sean: we need to capture best practices on captions 22:41:51 Group decision to report back - concur with Editor on bug #9774 - not a valid issue - pass 22:43:11 zakim, call janina 22:43:11 ok, janina; the call is being made 22:43:12 +Janina 22:43:13 JF - asking Sean if we can capture potential authoring issue as he identified? 22:43:56 scribenic: janina 22:44:01 -Eric_Carlson 22:44:17 Sean: what happens if caption is position such that the captions are position outside of a readable region - possible that an author can do so 22:44:42 SH: It might be possible to set 0 picsel size, can't prevent authors from doing something stupid 22:44:46 not something that can be mandated in a spec, but it is important author guidance 22:44:58 SH: wcag doesn't explain captions, though, so best practices not provided that way 22:45:17 SH: perhaps existing knwledge should be captured as wcag techniques 22:45:22 +Eric_Carlson 22:45:29 suspicion that this should be formulated as a WCAG success technique 22:45:31 GF: No single source of agreed caption guidelines, a neutral place like wcag a good spot 22:45:36 GF: Happy to help with this 22:45:51 q+ 22:46:30 JB: This is important info, esp that people are approaching in parallel, but not coordinated in a neutral repository 22:46:53 JB: Would like to se this go forward 22:46:59 GF: Should also consider descriptions 22:47:18 JB: absolutely 22:47:56 JF: Suggesting that SH and GF create a statement to be forwarded to WCAG 22:48:23 action sean to create a statement with geoff to forward need for caption and description techniques for wcag 22:48:23 Created ACTION-98 - Create a statement with geoff to forward need for caption and description techniques for wcag [on Sean Hayes - due 2011-01-19]. 22:48:50 Bug 10693 22:49:10 Silvia, can you join the call for a few minutes about this bug? 22:49:32 rrsagent, make minutes 22:49:32 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/12-html-a11y-minutes.html janina 22:49:46 am in Germany and not near a phone, sorry 22:50:02 What, no phones in Germany!!! 22:50:22 Can you look at Bug 10693 and say whether you can follow up on it? 22:50:40 Bug 10841 22:50:41 I will have to follow up indeed 22:51:07 John filed this just ahead of last call cut off ... 22:51:29 What to do when a descriptive track is longer than the primary resource time? 22:52:29 GF: How to know is first question 22:52:43 GF: What to do should be pin preference; Stop movie automatically? 22:53:13 GF: If recorded audio, not too hard to tell 22:53:17 GF: But, what if text? 22:53:39 SH: Can think of algo with audio 22:54:21 SH: Also ok in SAPI for TTS 22:54:28 GF: agree on mechanisms 22:55:23 SH: I just pause every description, very simple 22:55:54 JF: Does this require discrete control? 22:56:13 JF: A pause button for main resource, another for description? 22:56:17 SH: Not necessary 22:56:40 SH: Pause the main resource when playing the description; cycling mechanism 22:57:05 SH: Thought it was a cognitive disability question, someone wants a lot more time 22:58:17 i have to run. 22:58:25 Thanks, Geoff! 22:58:29 will read the minutes for the rest of this thread. 22:58:37 -Geoff_Freed 22:58:40 we actually discussed this during a meeting at IBM Japan and we thought that a "extend timeline" marker would be helpful - then the author can signal to the browser to wait for the screen reader to finish 22:58:49 some more details at http://blog.gingertech.net/2010/12/12/accessibility-to-web-video-for-the-vision-impaired/ 22:59:54 I do agree that we haven't currently got a mechanism to deal with extended text descriptions 23:00:15 I believe experiments are necessary 23:00:42 SH: Works because doesn't rely on screen reader. TTS is generated directly fot eh rendering 23:02:35 JF: Can keep this open, as needing testing and more discussion. We will also note that non screen reader mechanisms need to be considered. 23:02:49 EC: Not sure we can solve by the time the spec is done 23:03:29 SH: Agree 23:03:47 SH: Main thing is to make sure there are enough hooks to make sure we can do the right thing 23:03:54 EC: Agree 23:05:01 SH: I already have demos that work with HTML5 browser 23:05:05 EC: Silvia has also 23:05:45 Sean: are you doing extended descriptions? I am only doing synchronized descriptions 23:06:02 yes. 23:06:42 (apologies if I have seen it before - I don't remember) 23:06:56 DRAFT RESOLUTION: We believe this is about UA behaviior, and the spec should only provide sufficient resources for UA to create compelling solutions. 23:07:18 We believe those sufficient hooks already exist in the spec. 23:07:25 Silvia: Are you OK? 23:07:35 with this resolution? 23:07:37 Yes 23:07:58 I am not 100% sure we already have everything we need - I believe some extra markup may be necessary in descriptions 23:08:27 Silvia, Can you elaborate further on next week's call? 23:08:51 if Sean has an example that we can all look at and that doesn't need anything extra, that would be fine, too 23:09:11 Silvia, Shawn will follow up with you. 23:09:16 thanks 23:09:21 Bug 10842 23:09:24 Bug 10842 - Support the isolation of speech from other background sounds in AV media 23:09:27 The "Clear Audio" case 23:10:38 It's about production, but if packaged in with main media there's currently no api to determine, expose, select, etc. 23:12:00 Agreement that we need to solve this when we solve alternate lang, recorded audio description, sign lang translation, etc. 23:12:22 Silvia, isn't there another bug that better represents this problem? 23:12:24 yes, the multitrack API 23:12:30 bug number? 23:12:47 it's not "better", but just a different aspect of the same bug 23:13:14 9452 23:13:41 So, we close 10842 in preference for 9452? 23:13:51 SH: Link this one to 9452 23:13:54 I wanted to spend a day putting a proposal together which we can further discuss - haven't had the time yuet 23:14:34 we had some good email discussions 23:14:42 Close this one, and add Clear Audio to 9452 23:15:19 I would recommend keeping both around 23:15:45 even if we have multitrack, we still need an API to separately control the volume of the tracks 23:15:56 is sort-of a next step issue 23:16:24 we can put a message in 10842 though that it relates to 9452 23:16:48 and maybe even waits for resolution for 9452 23:16:51 Yes, but 10842 implies that creating clear audio is a ua technology, and that's something we need to dispose of. It isn't. 23:18:38 it needs more info, namely that the separate control of volume of different tracks does not require audio analysis, but only separate volume control through an API 23:19:26 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y 23:19:30 if you want, I can add a sentence 23:19:35 Silvia, we need to be closing bugs. We're proposing to capture the need for discovery, plus the need for independent control of multiple tracks with 9452. 23:19:57 Independent control of multiple tracks is also in our reqs. 23:20:30 ACTION: Janina to annotate 9452 with clear audio discovery and selection, as well as independent control of multiple playback tracks 23:20:31 Created ACTION-99 - Annotate 9452 with clear audio discovery and selection, as well as independent control of multiple playback tracks [on Janina Sajka - due 2011-01-19]. 23:21:30 new audio WG - see: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-audio/2010Dec/0096.html 23:23:08 Decsion: once janina completes Action-99, close bug 10842 23:23:36 gfreed has left #html-a11y 23:28:12 Discussion of whether the proposed Audio API WG can take our issues for controls. Feeling of most is that it isn't. 23:28:29 It will be very late, and is not currently scoped for controls. 23:29:21 JF: Remaining is 4 bugs for next week? 23:29:33 EC: A question for the Chairs as to when we should resolve these? 23:31:01 -Eric_Carlson 23:31:02 -Sean_Hayes 23:31:04 -Judy 23:31:08 zakim, bye 23:31:08 leaving. As of this point the attendees were Janina, John_Foliot, Judy, Geoff_Freed, Sean_Hayes, Eric_Carlson 23:31:08 Zakim has left #html-a11y 23:31:16 rrsagent, make minutes 23:31:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/12-html-a11y-minutes.html janina 23:37:04 bye!