IRC log of federated on 2011-01-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:10:49 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #federated
18:10:49 [RRSAgent]
logging to
18:11:06 [hhalpin]
Zakim, what's the code?
18:11:06 [Zakim]
sorry, hhalpin, I don't know what conference this is
18:11:12 [hhalpin]
Zakim, this is FSWXG
18:11:12 [Zakim]
hhalpin, I see INC_SWXG(FSWXG)2:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be FSWXG".
18:11:18 [hhalpin]
Zakim, this will be FSWXG
18:11:18 [Zakim]
ok, hhalpin; I see INC_SWXG(FSWXG)2:00PM scheduled to start in 49 minutes
18:11:46 [hitchhiker]
hitchhiker has joined #federated
18:21:52 [hhalpin]
if anyone has suggestions for the agenda, I'm making one up now
18:21:56 [hhalpin]
but we'll keep it informal
18:35:24 [donp]
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18:35:44 [walkah]
walkah has joined #federated
18:45:01 [bear]
bear has joined #federated
18:47:17 [mccarthy]
mccarthy has joined #federated
18:51:40 [DKA]
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18:51:51 [DKA]
18:52:41 [hhalpin]
hhalpin has changed the topic to: Federated Social Web Telecon Jan 11th
18:54:55 [Zakim]
INC_SWXG(FSWXG)2:00PM has now started
18:55:02 [Zakim]
+ +1.503.432.aaaa
18:56:09 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.375.aabb
18:56:38 [Zakim]
18:56:41 [Zakim]
18:56:47 [hhalpin]
Zakim, ??P2 is hhalpin
18:56:47 [Zakim]
+hhalpin; got it
18:56:49 [p2501]
the conference it did was here?
18:57:15 [bear]
Mike Tayrlo
18:57:19 [bear]
Mike Taylor
18:57:26 [brad]
brad has joined #federated
18:57:26 [hhalpin]
Zakim, [Mozilla] is MikeTaylor
18:57:26 [Zakim]
+MikeTaylor; got it
18:57:28 [Zakim]
- +1.202.375.aabb
18:57:41 [p2501]
was will be here?
18:57:42 [hhalpin]
\me Zakim, aabb is XX
18:57:50 [bear]
zakim, [Mozilla] is bear (aka Mike Taylor)
18:57:50 [Zakim]
I don't understand '[Mozilla] is bear (aka Mike Taylor)', bear
18:57:55 [hhalpin]
p2501 - the telecon has just started
18:57:59 [hhalpin]
Zakim, MikeTaylor is bear
18:57:59 [Zakim]
+bear; got it
18:58:21 [p2501]
but is should be here, is no so nice support skype when it isn free
18:58:45 [hhalpin]
p2501 - you can dial in using whatever voIP software you have, free or not, or just using a mobile phone
18:59:07 [hhalpin]
or you can just pay attention in IRC, I'll try to monitor both
18:59:13 [p2501]
ok thanks
18:59:25 [p2501]
i will save the logs
18:59:27 [p2501]
18:59:32 [Zakim]
+ +49.178.545.aacc
18:59:37 [hhalpin]
the logs are also saved automatically and given a URI
18:59:43 [p2501]
ok nice
18:59:46 [hhalpin]
RRSAgent, make minutes
18:59:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate hhalpin
18:59:54 [hhalpin]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
18:59:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.503.432.aaaa, bear, hhalpin, +49.178.545.aacc
19:00:06 [Zakim]
+ +1.510.931.aadd
19:00:14 [Zakim]
+ +1.973.650.aaee
19:00:27 [hhalpin]
\me Markus?
19:00:39 [hhalpin]
Zakim, who's making noise?
19:00:41 [Zakim]
+ +81.15.622.aaff
19:00:42 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.715.aagg
19:00:50 [Zakim]
hhalpin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: hhalpin (48%), +49.178.545.aacc (46%), +1.973.650.aaee (29%), ??P6 (4%)
19:01:23 [hhalpin]
Zakim, MikeMackintosh is aaee
19:01:23 [Zakim]
sorry, hhalpin, I do not recognize a party named 'MikeMackintosh'
19:01:37 [hhalpin]
Zakim, MikeMackintosh is ??aaee
19:01:38 [Zakim]
19:01:39 [Zakim]
sorry, hhalpin, I do not recognize a party named 'MikeMackintosh'
19:01:55 [hhalpin]
Zakim, aaee is MikeMackintosh
19:01:55 [Zakim]
+MikeMackintosh; got it
19:01:58 [ward]
ward has joined #federated
19:02:09 [SimonTennant]
SimonTennant has joined #federated
19:02:27 [ward]
503 == Ward Cunningham
19:02:27 [hhalpin]
Zakim, aacc is SimonTenant
19:02:27 [Zakim]
+SimonTenant; got it
19:02:42 [bblfish]
bblfish has joined #federated
19:02:46 [bblfish]
19:02:49 [hhalpin]
Zakim, aaaa is WardCunningham
19:02:49 [Zakim]
+WardCunningham; got it
19:03:09 [hhalpin]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
19:03:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see WardCunningham, bear, hhalpin, SimonTenant, +1.510.931.aadd, MikeMackintosh, +81.15.622.aaff, +1.617.715.aagg, DKA
19:03:37 [bblfish]
I think aad is me
19:03:49 [hhalpin]
Zakim, aagg is Mark
19:03:49 [Zakim]
+Mark; got it
19:04:29 [hhalpin]
Zakim, aaff is Brad
19:04:29 [Zakim]
+Brad; got it
19:04:30 [bblfish]
Zakim, aadd is me
19:04:31 [Zakim]
+bblfish; got it
19:04:41 [hhalpin]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
19:04:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see WardCunningham, bear, hhalpin, SimonTenant, bblfish, MikeMackintosh, Brad, Mark, DKA
19:05:03 [bblfish]
oops, I had turned off sound not muted myself
19:05:12 [hhalpin]
topic: Intro the W3C
19:05:19 [bblfish]
now I can hear without being heard
19:05:25 [DKA]
19:05:26 [hhalpin]
chair: hhalpin
19:05:30 [eschnou]
eschnou has joined #federated
19:05:37 [DKA]
Scribe: Dan
19:05:39 [hhalpin]
scribe: DKA
19:05:39 [DKA]
ScribeNick: DKA
19:05:43 [hhalpin]
scribenick: DKA
19:05:46 [yva]
yva has joined #federated
19:06:18 [DKA]
Dan: Somebody is always designated the scribe.
19:06:38 [Zakim]
19:06:39 [Zakim]
+ +43.838.0aahh
19:06:40 [DKA]
Harry: Describing the magic of the Zakim bridge.
19:07:01 [DKA]
... teleconferences can often run weekly but we decided monthly would be better.
19:07:10 [DKA]
... usually there is a scribe so notes can be taken in IRC.
19:07:28 [DKA]
... [not scribing this bit]
19:07:34 [Zakim]
19:07:49 [hhalpin]
1. Process
19:08:13 [DKA]
... What W3C provides is 1) a process of making a web standard
19:08:18 [evan]
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19:08:24 [evan]
19:08:41 [hhalpin]
19:08:46 [DKA]
... because social web is more experimental, we are going to do something a bit different than regular w3c process.
19:08:55 [evan]
hhalpin: I'm in, muted
19:09:11 [drenfer]
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19:09:30 [hhalpin]
2. Tools
19:09:31 [DKA]
... we want people to be able to explore more. We have an incubator group (which will be transfered into a community group).
19:09:56 [hhalpin]
The W3C list-servs, and every message archived own URL
19:09:59 [hhalpin]
19:10:02 [hhalpin]
19:10:05 [hhalpin]
19:10:08 [hhalpin]
svn, cvs, git
19:10:17 [hhalpin]
19:10:21 [DKA]
... W3C also provides some tools. In particular, listservers (with archives), wikis, blogs, web space, svn, teleconferencing facilities...
19:10:26 [hhalpin]
Zakim is teleconference
19:10:32 [DKA]
q+ to mention issues and actions tracking
19:11:09 [hhalpin]
Zakim, q+
19:11:09 [Zakim]
I see DKA, hhalpin on the speaker queue
19:11:14 [hhalpin]
Zakim, q-
19:11:14 [Zakim]
I see DKA on the speaker queue
19:11:21 [hhalpin]
Zakim, q+
19:11:21 [Zakim]
I see DKA, hhalpin on the speaker queue
19:11:24 [hhalpin]
ack hhalpin
19:11:30 [hhalpin]
"chair" not the leader
19:11:41 [hhalpin]
the chair's purpose to keep on schedule
19:11:58 [DKA]
... Zakim is the IRC bot. If you want to say something, you can use q+, q-, etc ... to get ont he "speaker queue". In general the chair is not the leader, but to keep the group on schedule, make sure everyone has their voices heard.
19:12:00 [hhalpin]
19:12:04 [hhalpin]
19:12:23 [hhalpin]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:12:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate hhalpin
19:12:24 [DKA]
... Another IRC bot called RRS agent - transcribes the meeting and transforms it into html minutes.
19:12:58 [hhalpin]
RRSAgent, make minutes public
19:12:58 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', hhalpin. Try /msg RRSAgent help
19:13:33 [hhalpin]
RRSAgent, make logs public
19:13:35 [hhalpin]
ack DKA
19:13:35 [Zakim]
DKA, you wanted to mention issues and actions tracking
19:13:36 [DKA]
Dan: agents and tracking
19:13:46 [evan]
19:14:19 [DKA]
ACTION: Dan to explain issues and actions on the telecon.
19:14:21 [hhalpin]
So now you can just look at that URI
19:14:27 [DKA]
19:14:50 [hhalpin]
\invite trackbot
19:14:53 [trackbot]
trackbot has joined #federated
19:14:53 [trackbot]
Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
19:14:53 [trackbot]
If you want to associate this channel with an existing Tracker, please say 'trackbot, associate this channel with #channel' (where #channel is the name of default channel for the group)
19:15:06 [hhalpin]
ACTION: hhalpin to setup trackbot
19:15:06 [trackbot]
Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
19:15:20 [hhalpin]
basically, bugzilla for standards
19:15:23 [evan]
19:15:45 [evan]
Are these available in the time between telecons?
19:15:50 [hhalpin]
19:15:59 [hhalpin]
Yes Evan, they are, except trackbot, which has to be setup
19:16:28 [evan]
Zakim, q+ about "canonical" channels for conversation
19:16:28 [Zakim]
evan, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
19:16:41 [DKA]
Dan: I suggest using trackbot to track issues and actions...
19:16:56 [DKA]
19:17:05 [DKA]
q+ evan
19:17:17 [hhalpin]
ack evan
19:17:57 [DKA]
Evan: One question is about canonical channels for conversations. Is it true that if it's not on the mailing list (or some other channel) it's ignored, etc...?
19:18:04 [Zakim]
+ +1.870.413.aaii
19:18:39 [DKA]
Harry: Typically, that's how it works - there's a single listserv. On federated social web that's not the case. Things are happing on different channels...
19:18:57 [hhalpin]
19:18:59 [DKA]
... we should have that discussion about what the default channel of conversation should be.
19:19:24 [DKA]
... for the time being, it would be great if people could list channels we should monitor.
19:19:35 [evan]
Good idea
19:19:35 [hhalpin]
agenda+ Activity Streams and Lists to monitor
19:20:05 [bman]
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19:20:33 [hhalpin]
Dan: we're going to not be strict with process, and we're not going to have the issue of it's not on the mailing-list it doesn't exist"
19:21:04 [eschnou]
eschnou has joined #federated
19:21:13 [DKA]
Harry: Feel free to ask any questions on w3c...
19:21:24 [brad]
question: any idea on how soon this will become a community group?
19:21:30 [evan]
19:21:48 [Zucks]
Zucks has joined #federated
19:22:11 [evan]
q+ about standards frm outside
19:22:16 [DKA]
... w3c's main value add is patents - w3c has a patent policy. It doesn't say that there are no patents. It says that if there are patents, you cannot ask for royalties [you give an implicit royalty-free license to these patents, unless you specifically exclude.]
19:22:21 [evan]
19:22:23 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.230.aajj
19:22:27 [bman]
19:22:32 [hhalpin]
ack evan
19:22:34 [DKA]
ack evan
19:22:55 [eschnou]
i'm in, on mute, sorry for being late, had to debug my network :-)
19:22:55 [hhalpin]
note that we are not going to enforce w3c patent policy on this group
19:23:19 [hhalpin]
unless the group decides they want to.
19:23:28 [DKA]
Evan: The description of the federated social web group that we have is to recommend standards moving forward. Are there previous examples in w3c we could look to - efforts about "cherrypicking" other standards?
19:24:20 [DKA]
Harry: EG for XML schema languages - there have been various proposals from different communities. Same thing is going on for video right now - finding an appropriate video codec for html5.
19:24:30 [DKA]
... there's not a set process for it.
19:24:47 [DKA]
... w3c could take anything as a starting point...
19:25:05 [DKA]
q+ to mention mobile web best practices as somewhat of a template.
19:25:27 [hhalpin]
ack DKA
19:25:27 [Zakim]
DKA, you wanted to mention mobile web best practices as somewhat of a template.
19:25:34 [DKA]
... we are working with OWF to make sure that specs that have gone through OWF process can be "referenced".
19:26:20 [hhalpin]
the general idea that we hope is that OWF-licensed software can easily get a W3C RFF, and Rosen etc. is working with W3C PSIG and our lawyer on this.
19:26:41 [hhalpin]
DKA: We've done similar work in the mobile web best-practiced
19:26:51 [brad]
19:26:58 [hhalpin]
ack brad
19:27:23 [DKA]
Brad: i was wondering - when will this become a community group?
19:28:39 [DKA]
Harry: the community group process will allow individuals to participate as individuals, be more light-weight. the schedule for this process being in place will be end of Q1 2011. Then we'll switch. Until then we will be an incubator group with an open door policy.
19:28:45 [hhalpin]
end of Q1 2011
19:28:55 [hhalpin]
that's like March or April...
19:29:01 [evan]
Can we have variable times?
19:29:09 [evan]
There were questions from far-east participants
19:29:20 [evan]
And Australians
19:29:23 [DKA]
Dan: I think we need to decide a teleconference time.
19:29:31 [eschnou]
+1 for variable time, so different TZ can join from time to time...
19:29:38 [hhalpin]
Ben that did Elgg?
19:29:41 [evan]
I don't see him
19:29:49 [bman]
which ben?
19:29:56 [DKA]
+1 to an earlier time.
19:30:00 [bman]
im ben werd?
19:30:06 [bman]
not me
19:30:09 [bman]
19:30:14 [hhalpin]
bman = ben who worked on elgg
19:30:18 [evan]
If we target three timezone zones... like Europe, East Asia, and the Americas
19:30:18 [bblfish]
Ben Werdmuller von Elgg
19:30:22 [bman]
2 bens from elgg
19:30:23 [bman]
19:30:26 [DKA]
+1 to a variable time as well.
19:30:28 [evan]
We could rotate it
19:30:40 [brad]
4:00 am too early
19:30:46 [hhalpin]
ACTION: hhalpin to find an earlier time
19:30:46 [trackbot]
Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
19:30:49 [evan]
Everyone's going to get a crappy time some time
19:30:53 [Zucks]
Zucks has left #federated
19:30:57 [evan]
Spread the pain of living on a round globe
19:31:14 [bman]
im the easy one about time
19:31:16 [brad]
+1 evan
19:31:38 [DKA]
Dan: If we do a teleconference a month and rotate the time, I think that's a good compromise.
19:31:49 [hhalpin]
topic: Evan on Federated Social Web status and future directions
19:31:49 [DKA]
Harry: Over to Evan
19:32:08 [DKA]
Evan: Thanks - I've been thinking about "where are we" on the FSW...
19:32:09 [bblfish1]
bblfish1 has joined #federated
19:32:19 [DKA]
... consumer trends, business trends...
19:32:23 [bman]
fyi ben werd does not actively work on elgg anyway
19:32:33 [DKA]
... there are continuing pressures to see more federation between these systems.
19:32:44 [hhalpin]
@bman, are you working on elgg actively?
19:32:47 [bman]
19:33:07 [DKA]
.... 2010 was a big year from the FSW. We've seen a move away from theoretical towards practical.
19:33:09 [bman]
its in a transitional period as elgg is moving to a foundation
19:33:23 [hhalpin]
+1, excellent. Maybe we should do a go around on the "state of play" of various federated social web codebases after Evan...
19:33:31 [DKA]
... where we are right now - we have a few candidate sets of protocols. Technology areas that are moving into the distributed social web space.
19:33:42 [bman]
brettproffitt is the head of the project but just lost backing of due to being sold
19:33:52 [DKA]
... one is the "ostatus" stack. Which is a stack based on pubsubhubub, activitystreams, salmon and webfinger.
19:34:09 [DKA]
... work well together but lack some features around privacy.
19:34:09 [SimonTennantBuddy]
SimonTennantBuddy has joined #federated
19:34:24 [DKA]
... there are others. E.g. OneSocialWeb that depends on activity streams plus XMPP.
19:34:41 [DKA]
... Fredica, Appleseed, Diaspora - all have done some work in this area.
19:34:44 [bman]
but caedes and me are the only ones working with federated elgg as far as i know atm
19:35:02 [DKA]
... one of the delicate balances we have to do is not to stomp on creativity in this area.
19:35:11 [bman]
19:35:20 [DKA]
... what we can do is to encourage these processes.
19:35:33 [bear]
agree, allows for best implementations to happen
19:35:47 [DKA]
... we can encourage people who are making these systems to hold up their protocols and software to meta-standards and meta-tests.
19:36:00 [bman]
im fine with more standards because ostatus wont fit all use cases
19:36:15 [DKA]
... In 2010 at the federated social web summit, we defined SWAT0 test - proposed by David R.
19:36:37 [DKA]
... it was a simple test use case that insisted that people be on different implementations / code-bases.
19:37:01 [DKA]
... one of the things we can do as a group is to first highlight these kind of tests and help implementers meet these tests and encourage them to do so....
19:37:16 [DKA]
... secondly to develop further tests.
19:37:33 [DKA]
... SWAT0 is the first one. We should develop SWAT1, SWAT2, and so on...
19:37:46 [DKA]
... what further functionality should we expect out of the federated social web?
19:38:11 [joeyguerra]
joeyguerra has joined #federated
19:38:24 [DKA]
... this is an exciting time - social web is big and important. The understanding that there are lots of implementations and networks that aren't going away
19:38:37 [DKA]
+1 to a focus on interop
19:38:39 [joeyguerra]
hey guys. sorry, i'm just joining.
19:38:50 [bblfish1]
+1 for me too on interop
19:38:54 [hhalpin]
\me np joey, feel free to dial in if you can
19:38:58 [joeyguerra]
19:38:58 [eschnou]
@evan do you have any statistics to share on the spread of ostatus today ? E.g. how many "nodes" ?
19:39:00 [hhalpin]
Zakim, what's the code?
19:39:00 [Zakim]
the conference code is 37994 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), hhalpin
19:39:04 [DKA]
... As a group, we can say "this is real" - that this is a pragmatic thing. We can add a lot to making these systems valuable.
19:39:05 [hhalpin]
there's the numbers joey
19:39:17 [DKA]
19:39:18 [hhalpin]
19:39:52 [hhalpin]
@eschnou, you can put yourself on the "queue" by just typing q+ into IRC
19:39:57 [hhalpin]
19:40:02 [hhalpin]
19:40:11 [eschnou]
@hhalpin thanks :-)
19:40:20 [Zakim]
+ +1.214.682.aakk
19:40:33 [eschnou]
19:40:41 [joeyguerra]
i'm on the call now.
19:40:44 [joeyguerra]
19:41:10 [hhalpin]
Zakim, aakk is joeyguerra
19:41:10 [Zakim]
+joeyguerra; got it
19:41:20 [hhalpin]
19:41:23 [joeyguerra]
19:41:25 [hhalpin]
ack eschnou
19:41:30 [joeyguerra]
ah. yeah.
19:41:38 [hhalpin]
yes, I can hear you
19:41:39 [DKA]
Dan: Just supporting your remarks on interop.
19:41:59 [joeyguerra]
i guess swat1 is the focus to reach interop?
19:42:01 [DKA]
... in OSW we are prioritizing interop in our development timeline.
19:42:31 [bblfish1]
don't forget the foaf and WebID crowd
19:42:33 [joeyguerra]
we haven't started focusing on it, but i guess we will if there's going to be activity/focus on it by others.
19:42:44 [DKA]
Laurent: I wanted to say - yes, it's exciting for federated social web, but in terms of usage, what do we have? What is the status of federation of ostatus? How many nodes, how many people, etc...?
19:43:52 [DKA]
Evan: On Ostatus - because it's an agglomeration of other protocols, it's possible to partially enable it. Google buzz is an example - they have implemented pubsubhubub so I can follow them for status net but they can't follow me back...
19:44:04 [Zakim]
19:44:31 [bblfish]
status net uses foaf
19:44:50 [joeyguerra]
is there a problem getting ssl certs to implement foaf?
19:44:52 [bman]
foaf xmpp and ostatus are all being used by me
19:45:03 [joeyguerra]
foaf with ssl?
19:45:03 [DKA]
... on for implementation - the stack is defined as what implements - for we have somewhere larger than 40,000 site running on our cloud service - range in size from single-user to - so 350,000 users roughly.
19:45:08 [joeyguerra]
on a dedicated server?
19:45:13 [joeyguerra]
or shared hosting account?
19:45:20 [DKA]
... we have about 10 to 15k other sites outside of the share hosting.
19:45:39 [eschnou]
19:45:40 [joeyguerra]
do they all of ssl?
19:45:46 [joeyguerra]
19:46:09 [bman]
the caedes elgg implementation requires ssl
19:46:12 [bblfish]
no status net does not yet use foaf with ssl. But its not a lot of work to enable it. And it could use the foaf a lot more creatively and usefully. But it does publish foaf, one of the big foaf publishers
19:46:13 [DKA]
... but Ostatus isn't the clear winner. I don't think that numbers today indicate that. but we're seeing a lot of users.
19:47:14 [bblfish]
the reason things are slow to happen is that it takes the network effect
19:47:19 [DKA]
Laurent: Users are using the technology but are they using the federation concept? Are they federating with other notes? Do people understand the concept of federation? With swat0 we could make a distributed twitter. The world is ready to move to a decentralized twitter but it's not happening. WHat do we need to do which is not technology oriented to make this happen?
19:47:31 [bblfish]
which is something that is slow to develop.
19:47:45 [bblfish]
true: combinging networks is a good way of putting things
19:47:58 [DKA]
Evan: I'd love to address that. We should not frame things in a negative way though - but in a positive way - let's connect networks that already exist.
19:48:21 [DKA]
... there are social networks outside of the biggest social networks. For those, how should we connect them?
19:48:23 [DKA]
19:48:30 [bblfish]
combining networks is a good way to get the momentum in order to allow decentralised networks to exist.
19:48:38 [hhalpin]
ack hhalpin
19:48:41 [eschnou]
19:48:42 [DKA]
... I look more to the enterprise use cases than to the [consumer] use cases.
19:48:59 [brad]
19:49:34 [DKA]
Harry: That's why I thought there might be a fit between the w3c and the federated social web. We can't tell people "you have to implement my software" - but we can work on standards and make different code bases interoperate. including test cases.
19:49:55 [hhalpin]
ack brad
19:49:58 [invi]
invi has joined #federated
19:50:02 [DKA]
... in w3c - most of our work has been based in browsers - and we've been excited by work on social agents in the browsers. We'd like to support it more.
19:50:27 [hhalpin]
q+ brad
19:50:37 [DKA]
Topic: Short-term goals
19:51:04 [SimonTennantBuddy]
where in Europe?
19:51:12 [DKA]
Evan: One goal - a new federated social web gathering of some kind. We have an offer of space and time in Europe [Berlin] in early June.
19:51:27 [eschnou]
what about Fosdem next month ? Anyone around for some meeting/hackfest/interop ?
19:51:31 [hhalpin]
There has been an offer from some non-profit foundation (Herman Boell?) to host another Federated Social Web summit?
19:51:50 [hhalpin]
And yes, outreach and hacking at FOSDEM is also another great idea...
19:51:50 [SimonTennantBuddy]
I will be at FOSDEM and be presenting and running a hacking workshop there. Happy to arrange.
19:51:55 [DKA]
... this would be a great opportunity to bring people together. Our previous federated social web summit was in portland - a bit difficult. We have an opportunity to make this a bigger deal. Finally we can user this as a way to reach out to people who haven't been active before.
19:52:23 [joeyguerra]
it would be great to "broadcast" that conference via the federated web.
19:52:36 [joeyguerra]
especially as a "case study".
19:52:38 [DKA]
... our event before - you had to be working on federated social web technologies to attend. That was successful, but was not [as open].
19:52:41 [joeyguerra]
of what could be done.
19:52:44 [bman]
im too far away and unfunded for any travel
19:52:53 [joeyguerra]
yeah, me too.
19:53:00 [DKA]
... one thing we need to work on in the immediate term : nailing down the time, the format, and the invite list.
19:53:11 [joeyguerra]
but if it was "broadcasted" with an adhoc federated network, i could participate.
19:53:19 [bman]
indeed as could i
19:53:29 [hhalpin]
yes we should definitely broadcast it
19:53:50 [DKA]
... Next goal : we should work on defining what the next SWAT tests should be. Should they be around specific use cases - photo sharing, video sharing, events, etc...
19:53:50 [hhalpin]
and we could ask to see if there would be some sort of travel grants as well if we can find the funding...
19:54:27 [bblfish]
cool for privacy
19:54:34 [DKA]
... another idea - topological ways to look at the tests. Privacy is an important issue. We'd like to challenge participants to come up with implementations [that support privacy].
19:54:48 [bman]
19:54:57 [joeyguerra]
yeah, privacy seems important.
19:54:59 [hhalpin]
so discuss for a week a number of use-cases over the list.
19:55:03 [hhalpin]
19:55:04 [DKA]
... should we set some goals to make a decision by our next telecon [for swat 1]? Similar for making decisions for the get-together.
19:55:04 [bblfish]
sounds good
19:55:08 [hhalpin]
ack brad
19:55:10 [joeyguerra]
but implementing a swatx test seems more important.
19:56:10 [evan]
I'd like to move wholesale the FSW google group and FSW wiki to W3c systems
19:56:10 [bblfish]
is the mailing list working now, btw?
19:56:16 [DKA]
Brad: interaction between the different projects - one important thing would be to invite more of the groups that are working on distributed projects. If this looks like the main central place where projects will be working with eachother, we could do more with bringing in more projects.
19:56:16 [bblfish]
not sure if I am on it yet
19:56:21 [hhalpin]
ack hhalpin
19:56:22 [joeyguerra]
does anyone have a central site to collaborate?
19:57:13 [DKA]
Harry: One thing w3c does offer, if people want this - if a test suite can be specified in code, w3c has tools that could run the tests, record results, etc...
19:57:13 [joeyguerra]
who's driving moving the FSW group to w3c?
19:57:34 [bman]
brad i thought
19:57:57 [DKA]
... second thing - do we want to move the current wiki and listserv over to w3c wiki and listserv?
19:58:05 [DKA]
... w3c can run media wiki.
19:58:05 [caedes]
do other people think it would be possible to setup a federated group (i was thinking about ostatus) for collaboration?
19:58:18 [DKA]
... if people are ok with that, I could make it happen.
19:58:30 [DKA]
... or we could keep going with the google group and current wiki.
19:58:37 [bman]
rather not use google
19:58:40 [bman]
19:59:22 [joeyguerra]
what's the pros and cons?
19:59:23 [DKA]
I suggest making a strawpoll on each issue separately - list, wiki, etc...
19:59:23 [hhalpin]
Question: Are we OK moving to a W3C list?
19:59:26 [bblfish]
19:59:27 [SimonTennantBuddy]
19:59:28 [DKA]
(you can also say +0)
19:59:29 [evan]
19:59:30 [bman]
19:59:32 [walkah]
19:59:34 [brad]
19:59:35 [bear]
19:59:36 [ward]
19:59:38 [hellekin]
hellekin has joined #federated
19:59:39 [caedes]
19:59:42 [DKA]
+1 to moving mailing list.
19:59:51 [hellekin]
hi there
20:00:05 [eschnou]
Are the archives easy to search by external people ?
20:00:06 [SimonTennantBuddy]
can we make sure the archives to the list are public please.
20:00:26 [bman]
is irc being logged caedes?
20:00:38 [eschnou]
then +1 for me as well
20:00:41 [bman]
20:00:41 [bblfish]
20:00:48 [joeyguerra]
20:00:55 [hhalpin]
Move Wiki over?
20:00:56 [brad]
i think important to make joining and participating as open as possible
20:00:57 [DKA]
+0 to wiki
20:01:00 [caedes]
bman: i didn't configure the channel
20:01:03 [evan]
20:01:04 [bman]
20:01:08 [evan]
we can even redirect it
20:01:11 [bblfish]
20:01:15 [evan]
so it's transparent
20:01:19 [hhalpin]
we'll set-up redirects
20:01:22 [DKA]
+0.5 not allowed
20:01:22 [bman]
anyone know where irc is being logged to?
20:01:29 [ward]
20:01:31 [hhalpin]
RRSAgent, make minutes
20:01:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate hhalpin
20:01:32 [bblfish]
20:01:33 [evan]
hhalpin: can we set these as actions TBD before next meeting?
20:01:42 [hhalpin]
20:01:48 [evan]
to be done
20:01:58 [hhalpin]
ACTION: hhalpin to work with evan to migrate list and wiki over
20:01:58 [trackbot]
Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
20:02:08 [evan]
20:02:12 [hhalpin]
20:02:15 [DKA]
ACTION on Harry to set up trackbot.
20:02:15 [trackbot]
Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
20:02:17 [hhalpin]
RRSAgent, make logs public
20:02:20 [hhalpin]
ack evan
20:02:27 [bman]
thanks much
20:02:41 [joeyguerra]
thanks for organizing it.
20:02:48 [joeyguerra]
i look forward to contributing.
20:03:11 [bman]
20:03:20 [joeyguerra]
gotta go. cya'll next time.
20:03:22 [eschnou]
@evan do groups support federation, or is it SWAT27 :-)
20:03:29 [bblfish]
20:03:30 [Zakim]
20:03:31 [evan]
eschnou: yes
20:03:32 [DKA]
Evan: my only question on dogfooding on FSW - there is no one FSW today - we have different camps. I'm happy to set up a group on oststus (on as needed but my only concern is for those folks working on other protocols...
20:03:39 [hhalpin]
+1 setting up a statusnet group for this
20:03:46 [eschnou]
@evan nice ! will have to try that one.
20:03:50 [hhalpin]
but I could reasonably see there might be objections
20:03:50 [bear]
can an ostatus test group be setup to allow people to start trying to gateway the different implementations?
20:04:03 [bblfish]
It's a bit early to decide on a federated technology, though it can be good to try many things out.
20:04:23 [bman]
i think thats a bad ideal, as we want FSW to be more than just ostatus.
20:04:51 [SimonTennantBuddy]
interop should be seperated between protocol and transport (http, xmpp, carrier pidgeon)
20:04:59 [evan]
could we do it on lots?
20:05:01 [bman]
i agree
20:05:03 [DKA]
+q to what Simon said.
20:05:08 [DKA]
20:05:12 [bblfish]
20:05:18 [hhalpin]
ack bblfish
20:05:21 [bman]
no reason i couldnt read/write to ostatus from xmpp
20:05:32 [hhalpin]
scribenick: hhalpin
20:05:46 [Zakim]
20:05:54 [bman]
thanks DKA
20:06:19 [hhalpin]
it would be great to populate the wiki more
20:06:31 [hhalpin]
with more info on what the actual different stacks are...
20:06:45 [hhalpin]
bblfish: We should work on interoperability first and foremost
20:07:03 [bblfish]
that was bblfish from Berlin
20:07:23 [SimonTennantBuddy]
has anyone questioned wheter this is possible?
20:07:28 [joeyguerra]
i think interoping would require implementing a specfic protocol, in essence picking one.
20:07:54 [hhalpin]
evan: not sure if interop between protocols is a reasonable goal, instead we want interop between systems
20:08:19 [bman]
i implement more than one at duuit and its a pain for maint
20:08:22 [hhalpin]
... it's not always good to have a single protocol overwhelm
20:08:31 [bblfish]
I agree. ideally we should have no protocol to write
20:08:34 [joeyguerra]
yeah. maintenance is pain, totally agree.
20:08:38 [hhalpin]
... so lets separate protocol from data-structure
20:08:40 [bblfish]
we should all be able to do this over http :-)
20:08:43 [bman]
bbl agreed
20:08:49 [bman]
hhalpin agreed
20:09:01 [eschnou]
I agree, separate protocol but trying to use same data structures
20:09:28 [joeyguerra]
what do ya'll want to use for data structure?
20:09:53 [joeyguerra]
does ostatus define a data structure?
20:09:54 [hhalpin]
e-mail list?
20:10:05 [bblfish]
yes, sounds like a good e-mail list idea
20:10:06 [SimonTennantBuddy]
+1 for email
20:10:07 [hhalpin]
20:10:10 [joeyguerra]
20:10:22 [eschnou]
20:10:37 [hhalpin]
evan: we have quite a bit to do
20:10:46 [hhalpin]
... moving systems
20:10:53 [hhalpin]
... discussing next test-cases
20:11:01 [evan]
20:11:12 [bblfish]
There is the HAR in Berlin btw
20:11:13 [SimonTennantBuddy]
20:11:14 [bman]
as long as its broadcast +1
20:11:18 [hhalpin]
first week in berlin for another federated social web?
20:11:19 [joeyguerra]
i still have to imlement swat0 in my project.
20:11:20 [bman]
cant go in person
20:11:21 [bblfish]
that's the big hacker conference
20:11:21 [hhalpin]
when is HAR?
20:11:36 [SimonTennantBuddy]
also CCC camp in Berlin in summer.
20:11:53 [bblfish]
11-14 August I think
20:11:53 [bman]
no objections
20:12:02 [ward]
have dropped off audio, will read typescript, bye all
20:12:04 [eschnou]
may just be too close from OSCON ?
20:12:05 [joeyguerra]
yeah. i can't be there in person. but i'd love to implement SOME form of federation to receive "tweets" from it in my system.
20:12:11 [eschnou]
20:12:15 [Zakim]
20:12:15 [hhalpin]
Meeting adjourned
20:12:24 [hhalpin]
RRSAgent, make minutes
20:12:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate hhalpin
20:12:24 [evan]
20:12:27 [bman]
thanks alot everyone, good progress
20:12:33 [evan]
20:12:35 [hhalpin]
RRSAgent, make logs public
20:12:38 [hhalpin]
20:12:42 [Zakim]
20:12:45 [joeyguerra]
20:12:49 [eschnou]
Thanks indeed ! Cheers !
20:12:52 [Zakim]
- +43.838.0aahh
20:12:55 [Zakim]
20:13:05 [Zakim]
20:13:06 [eschnou]
eschnou has left #federated
20:13:11 [Zakim]
20:13:12 [Zakim]
- +1.415.230.aajj
20:13:19 [Zakim]
20:14:10 [brad]
brad has left #federated
20:14:13 [hhalpin]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
20:14:13 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Mark, +1.870.413.aaii
20:14:34 [Zakim]
20:15:02 [bman]
20:15:13 [bman]
im still updating ppl upstream
20:15:27 [bblfish]
20:15:32 [bblfish]
that's for the Berlin camp
20:16:00 [bblfish]
for people who like hacking, testing security protocols, learning about flaws in SSL etc
20:16:16 [bman]
i would love to go
20:16:33 [bman]
but there is 0$ funding elgg atm
20:16:41 [bblfish]
for example this talk was an eye opener for me at the cccc in December
20:16:53 [bblfish]
bman, where are you located?
20:17:05 [bman]
i live in omaha, nebraska, usa
20:17:13 [bman]
currently im in arkansas tho
20:17:26 [bblfish]
ah ok, USA…. yep, that's a bit of a distance
20:17:30 [bman]
20:17:35 [bman]
cant walk if i tried
20:17:46 [Zakim]
- +1.870.413.aaii
20:17:47 [Zakim]
INC_SWXG(FSWXG)2:00PM has ended
20:17:48 [bblfish]
20:17:48 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.503.432.aaaa, +1.202.375.aabb, hhalpin, bear, +49.178.545.aacc, +1.510.931.aadd, +1.973.650.aaee, +81.15.622.aaff, +1.617.715.aagg, DKA, MikeMackintosh,
20:17:51 [Zakim]
... SimonTenant, WardCunningham, Mark, Brad, bblfish, +43.838.0aahh, +1.870.413.aaii, +1.415.230.aajj, +1.214.682.aakk, joeyguerra
20:18:07 [bman]
i like that irc bot
20:18:10 [bman]
pretty neat
20:18:23 [hhalpin]
RRSAgent, make minutes
20:18:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate hhalpin
20:18:28 [hhalpin]
RRSAgent, make logs public
20:18:38 [bman]
very cool indeed
20:18:41 [hhalpin]
And hopefully we can eventually integrate activity streams and sort of stuff into this IRC bot
20:18:45 [hhalpin]
but you can read all about it
20:18:57 [hhalpin]
its quite sophisticated for an irc bot
20:19:09 [caedes]
bman: do you have some elgg instance with ostatus support?
20:19:15 [hhalpin]
20:19:25 [hhalpin]
20:19:25 [bman]
we did the same types of things in our bots until the last few months when we abandonded irc for xmpp muc
20:19:37 [bman]
caedes i have a version of in testing
20:19:39 [bman]
nothing live yet
20:19:43 [hhalpin]
yes we've discussed migrating to xmpp, and the bots too
20:20:02 [bman]
hhalpin, its not a big deal with a irc gateway as i have done
20:20:05 [bman]
20:20:11 [hhalpin]
whats your email bman?
20:20:21 [hhalpin]
we are looking at these sort of migrations over the next few months
20:20:22 [bman] or
20:20:38 [hhalpin]
cool, ok, we'll get in touch, what gateway did you end up using?
20:20:59 [bman]
module for our xmpp (ejabber) server that we modified
20:21:07 [hhalpin]
ok cool.
20:21:17 [bman]
ejabber module works out of the box but its not the best
20:21:25 [bear]
let me know if you need xmpp help - i'm on the xmpp board and can find resources
20:21:27 [bman]
confuses alot of irc users
20:21:51 [hhalpin]
great, we definitely want IRC/XMPP interop for W3C telecons
20:21:58 [bman]
i agree
20:22:10 [bman]
im slowly phasing myself away from irc as much as possible
20:22:19 [hhalpin]
but we can't abandon IRC lots of w3c folks use it of course, but a gateway would be perfect
20:22:39 [bman]
thats what i did to get people off of it
20:22:48 [bman]
i could gateway from my xmpp to any irc server
20:22:55 [bman]
so i could gateway this without problem
20:24:09 [bman]
caedes i couldnt use your implementation directly as it was based on a fork of elgg 1.7 and my current tree is a fork from 1.8 elgg
20:24:44 [caedes]
ok, are you working on something then?
20:24:59 [caedes]
we're aiming to migrate to 1.8 soon, but we're not in a hurry
20:25:11 [bman]
yes but i got delayed a while due to hardware issues
20:25:29 [bman]
elgg is so up in the air atm
20:25:51 [bman]
1.8 should have been done long ago but with the funding gone now there is no telling when it will be "done"
20:26:05 [bman]
as far as i know there is only 2 sites using 1.8 based trees
20:26:07 [caedes]
maybe time for a freeze then :)
20:26:09 [bman] and
20:26:27 [bman]
brett is no longer being paid
20:26:51 [caedes]
ok.. maybe another strategy would be in order then
20:27:11 [bman]
let them have time to get the elgg foundation up and running but ill keep working on the code in the meantime
20:27:41 [bman]
i would love to work with you on it
20:27:45 [caedes]
thing is 1.8 shouldnt delay a lot more
20:28:01 [bman]
i agree no point in 7 dot releases of 1.7
20:28:23 [hellekin]
bman: are you committing to the Elgg tree?
20:28:37 [caedes]
maybe you can organize some kind of irc elgg briefing with brett and cash and other commiters
20:28:56 [hellekin]
yes, they're a bit sparse on IRC
20:28:59 [bman]
yes but i am maintaining a fork that is not quite the same as mine is xmpp based as well as standard elgg
20:29:13 [caedes]
xmpp based?
20:29:15 [hellekin]
20:29:21 [bman]
cash doesnt use irc and brett only used it when he was paid
20:29:26 [caedes]
20:29:28 [bman]
but im sure i could get them together
20:29:48 [hellekin]
irc / xmpp / anywhere chat
20:29:50 [bman]
xmpp backend as well, posting from/to xmpp etc
20:30:01 [caedes]
with ejabberd?
20:30:05 [bman]
20:30:12 [caedes]
what do you mean by xmpp backend?
20:30:22 [bman]
i was working on federating via xmpp before you ever started on ostatus
20:30:42 [caedes]
20:30:51 [bman]
logins, posting etc
20:31:00 [hhalpin]
RRSAgent, make minutes
20:31:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate hhalpin
20:31:12 [caedes]
we have worked a bit on elgg and ejabberd integration (based on beechat)
20:31:40 [hellekin]
maybe we can go to #elgg or #lorea on freenode?
20:31:50 [SimonTennantBuddy]
SimonTennantBuddy has left #federated
20:32:12 [bman]
i didnt use beechat either mine was before it as well
20:32:26 [caedes]
is your module published?
20:32:27 [hellekin]
bman: where is yours?
20:32:35 [joeyguerra]
joeyguerra has left #federated
20:32:38 [bman]
auth is handled by ldap
20:32:49 [bman]
i contributed to beechat
20:32:56 [bman]
20:33:04 [hellekin]
ok thanks
20:33:10 [bman]
the problem is that my implemtnation is diff from all others
20:33:40 [bman] is where i keep posting my code
20:33:53 [bman]
but im behind atm since my laptop has been dead a couple of months
20:34:00 [bman]
back up and going now
20:34:09 [caedes]
cool :)
20:35:26 [bman]
ill be back on #elgg more when i get back home in the next couple of weeks then i will update my code trees
20:35:35 [hellekin]
20:35:55 [bman]
i still dont like the current systems for auth
20:36:43 [bman]
ldap is the head of elgg and xmpp whereas beechat is using elgg for auth
20:37:12 [bman]
i am writing to ldap as well and no other site i know of is doing that
20:37:29 [bman]
i shouldnt have forked elgg but now its so far i dont know how to get back in line
20:37:36 [caedes]
20:37:49 [bman]
i thought elgg would have at least caught up to 1.8 by now
20:38:33 [hellekin]
we need to talk altogether and have some visibility on where Elgg is going
20:38:51 [bman]
indeed, its all up in the air with the shakup of curverider
20:39:16 [bman]
curverider pushed (1.8) to the detriment of the OSS project
20:39:45 [bman]
used all resources to get their version out but then killed paid devel
20:39:56 [caedes]
when did they kill it?
20:40:19 [hellekin]
well, I think it's fair to come up with a better code base, but the burden on plugin developers is risky
20:40:54 [bman]
the company was absourbed by one of their investors
20:41:01 [bman]
this happened in the last week or so
20:41:38 [bman]
it wasnt about the code base being better it was about getting their commercial version out (with no full sources provided to the community)
20:42:11 [hellekin]
ah yuck
20:42:12 [bman]
curverider had a habit of not being good oss
20:42:40 [bman]
but now its out of their hands as to the direction i expect good things
20:42:50 [bman]
cash and brett are both great
20:42:54 [caedes]
i always saw them as quite friendly but ok
20:42:57 [bman]
the company needed to go
20:43:22 [bman]
brett was just a employee of curverider
20:43:55 [bman]
there was alot of times i foudn mentions of code that was maintained in the tree but not open source
20:43:59 [bman]
like their sms plugin for elgg
20:44:08 [hellekin]
so, the foundation is created by whom?
20:44:18 [bman]
i had to rewrite it backwards compatible to fill in the gap
20:44:29 [bman]
foundation is being headed by brettproffitt
20:44:48 [bman]
but he just basically got laid off so hes going to need time
20:45:02 [caedes]
sounds ok
20:45:07 [bman]
i heard ben werd offered to help as well
20:45:12 [bman]
cash is in
20:45:36 [hellekin]
maybe he would like to live in a squat in Am*dam for a while :)
20:45:52 [bman]
doubt he would
20:45:53 [bman]
20:46:36 [bman]
i been working without pay on this for quite a while now
20:46:58 [caedes]
we're quite enthusiastic about 1.8, but waiting for it to stabilize to merge our fork, which i think could take at most a few days
20:47:26 [bman]
it wont take long to get most up and running
20:47:35 [bman]
but you should work on moving your forked code to modules
20:47:46 [hellekin]
yes that's the plan
20:48:02 [bman]
very nice, i would love to help
20:48:14 [bman]
combine the implementations
20:48:20 [hellekin]
but we need to figure out where to add hooks, and how to include some futnctionlity into core.
20:48:50 [caedes]
just stabilize 1.8 and then if we can discuss a few fast issues it will be a breeze
20:48:50 [bman]
well 1.9 elgg is supposed to be federated so once 1.8 is out im sure more core devs would help
20:48:58 [hellekin]
With the code changing everyday without too much visibility, it's a bit like Sysyphus
20:49:20 [bman]
indeed, the only people doing amazing things are having to do it with forks
20:49:51 [bman]
there is currently only like 3 people working on core dev anymore
20:49:55 [hellekin]
and SVN doesn't help: fast-forwarding alwayl fails :]
20:49:55 [bman]
and noone is being paid to do it
20:50:10 [caedes]
small forks, but we havent commited a lot of work to getting them upstream
20:50:17 [bman]
yeah i based off svn about 5 months ago and the core still hasnt caught up to me
20:50:23 [hellekin]
well, we're not paid for that either
20:50:42 [bman]
elgg - the only non paid group working on this level shit
20:50:44 [bman]
20:51:03 [bman]
faith in the good code > $
20:52:09 [bman]
well guys i would love to keep chatting on this but i have to run. i will try to stay on irc #elgg more this week and I emailed brett about getting all of us together in a chatroom again
20:52:18 [caedes]
ok, cool
20:52:29 [bman]
i should be back fulltime in another week when i go home
20:52:54 [bman]
have a good one and keep up the great work !
20:52:58 [bman]
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bman has joined #federated
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bman has joined #federated