18:10:49 RRSAgent has joined #federated 18:10:49 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-federated-irc 18:11:06 Zakim, what's the code? 18:11:06 sorry, hhalpin, I don't know what conference this is 18:11:12 Zakim, this is FSWXG 18:11:12 hhalpin, I see INC_SWXG(FSWXG)2:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be FSWXG". 18:11:18 Zakim, this will be FSWXG 18:11:18 ok, hhalpin; I see INC_SWXG(FSWXG)2:00PM scheduled to start in 49 minutes 18:11:46 hitchhiker has joined #federated 18:21:52 if anyone has suggestions for the agenda, I'm making one up now 18:21:56 but we'll keep it informal 18:35:24 donp has joined #federated 18:35:44 walkah has joined #federated 18:45:01 bear has joined #federated 18:47:17 mccarthy has joined #federated 18:51:40 DKA has joined #federated 18:51:51 ciao 18:52:41 hhalpin has changed the topic to: Federated Social Web Telecon Jan 11th 18:54:55 INC_SWXG(FSWXG)2:00PM has now started 18:55:02 + +1.503.432.aaaa 18:56:09 + +1.202.375.aabb 18:56:38 +[Mozilla] 18:56:41 +??P2 18:56:47 Zakim, ??P2 is hhalpin 18:56:47 +hhalpin; got it 18:56:49 the conference it did was here? 18:57:15 Mike Tayrlo 18:57:19 Mike Taylor 18:57:26 brad has joined #federated 18:57:26 Zakim, [Mozilla] is MikeTaylor 18:57:26 +MikeTaylor; got it 18:57:28 - +1.202.375.aabb 18:57:41 was will be here? 18:57:42 \me Zakim, aabb is XX 18:57:50 zakim, [Mozilla] is bear (aka Mike Taylor) 18:57:50 I don't understand '[Mozilla] is bear (aka Mike Taylor)', bear 18:57:55 p2501 - the telecon has just started 18:57:59 Zakim, MikeTaylor is bear 18:57:59 +bear; got it 18:58:21 but is should be here, is no so nice support skype when it isn free 18:58:45 p2501 - you can dial in using whatever voIP software you have, free or not, or just using a mobile phone 18:59:07 or you can just pay attention in IRC, I'll try to monitor both 18:59:13 ok thanks 18:59:25 i will save the logs 18:59:27 xD 18:59:32 + +49.178.545.aacc 18:59:37 the logs are also saved automatically and given a URI 18:59:43 ok nice 18:59:46 RRSAgent, make minutes 18:59:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-federated-minutes.html hhalpin 18:59:54 Zakim, who's on the phone? 18:59:54 On the phone I see +1.503.432.aaaa, bear, hhalpin, +49.178.545.aacc 19:00:06 + +1.510.931.aadd 19:00:14 + +1.973.650.aaee 19:00:27 \me Markus? 19:00:39 Zakim, who's making noise? 19:00:41 + +81.15.622.aaff 19:00:42 + +1.617.715.aagg 19:00:50 hhalpin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: hhalpin (48%), +49.178.545.aacc (46%), +1.973.650.aaee (29%), ??P6 (4%) 19:01:23 Zakim, MikeMackintosh is aaee 19:01:23 sorry, hhalpin, I do not recognize a party named 'MikeMackintosh' 19:01:37 Zakim, MikeMackintosh is ??aaee 19:01:38 +DKA 19:01:39 sorry, hhalpin, I do not recognize a party named 'MikeMackintosh' 19:01:55 Zakim, aaee is MikeMackintosh 19:01:55 +MikeMackintosh; got it 19:01:58 ward has joined #federated 19:02:09 SimonTennant has joined #federated 19:02:27 503 == Ward Cunningham 19:02:27 Zakim, aacc is SimonTenant 19:02:27 +SimonTenant; got it 19:02:42 bblfish has joined #federated 19:02:46 hi 19:02:49 Zakim, aaaa is WardCunningham 19:02:49 +WardCunningham; got it 19:03:09 Zakim, who's on the phone? 19:03:09 On the phone I see WardCunningham, bear, hhalpin, SimonTenant, +1.510.931.aadd, MikeMackintosh, +81.15.622.aaff, +1.617.715.aagg, DKA 19:03:37 I think aad is me 19:03:49 Zakim, aagg is Mark 19:03:49 +Mark; got it 19:04:29 Zakim, aaff is Brad 19:04:29 +Brad; got it 19:04:30 Zakim, aadd is me 19:04:31 +bblfish; got it 19:04:41 Zakim, who's on the phone? 19:04:41 On the phone I see WardCunningham, bear, hhalpin, SimonTenant, bblfish, MikeMackintosh, Brad, Mark, DKA 19:05:03 oops, I had turned off sound not muted myself 19:05:12 topic: Intro the W3C 19:05:19 now I can hear without being heard 19:05:25 hey 19:05:26 chair: hhalpin 19:05:30 eschnou has joined #federated 19:05:37 Scribe: Dan 19:05:39 scribe: DKA 19:05:39 ScribeNick: DKA 19:05:43 scribenick: DKA 19:05:46 yva has joined #federated 19:06:18 Dan: Somebody is always designated the scribe. 19:06:38 -SimonTenant 19:06:39 + +43.838.0aahh 19:06:40 Harry: Describing the magic of the Zakim bridge. 19:07:01 ... teleconferences can often run weekly but we decided monthly would be better. 19:07:10 ... usually there is a scribe so notes can be taken in IRC. 19:07:28 ... [not scribing this bit] 19:07:34 +SimonTenant 19:07:49 1. Process 19:08:13 ... What W3C provides is 1) a process of making a web standard 19:08:18 evan has joined #federated 19:08:24 hi 19:08:41 http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/ 19:08:46 ... because social web is more experimental, we are going to do something a bit different than regular w3c process. 19:08:55 hhalpin: I'm in, muted 19:09:11 drenfer has joined #federated 19:09:30 2. Tools 19:09:31 ... we want people to be able to explore more. We have an incubator group (which will be transfered into a community group). 19:09:56 The W3C list-servs, and every message archived own URL 19:09:59 wikis 19:10:02 blogs 19:10:05 webpsace 19:10:08 svn, cvs, git 19:10:17 telecon 19:10:21 ... W3C also provides some tools. In particular, listservers (with archives), wikis, blogs, web space, svn, teleconferencing facilities... 19:10:26 Zakim is teleconference 19:10:32 q+ to mention issues and actions tracking 19:11:09 Zakim, q+ 19:11:09 I see DKA, hhalpin on the speaker queue 19:11:14 Zakim, q- 19:11:14 I see DKA on the speaker queue 19:11:21 Zakim, q+ 19:11:21 I see DKA, hhalpin on the speaker queue 19:11:24 ack hhalpin 19:11:30 "chair" not the leader 19:11:41 the chair's purpose to keep on schedule 19:11:58 ... Zakim is the IRC bot. If you want to say something, you can use q+, q-, etc ... to get ont he "speaker queue". In general the chair is not the leader, but to keep the group on schedule, make sure everyone has their voices heard. 19:12:00 http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html 19:12:04 RRSAgent 19:12:23 RRSAgent, make minutes 19:12:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-federated-minutes.html hhalpin 19:12:24 ... Another IRC bot called RRS agent - transcribes the meeting and transforms it into html minutes. 19:12:58 RRSAgent, make minutes public 19:12:58 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', hhalpin. Try /msg RRSAgent help 19:13:33 RRSAgent, make logs public 19:13:35 ack DKA 19:13:35 DKA, you wanted to mention issues and actions tracking 19:13:36 Dan: agents and tracking 19:13:46 Neat! 19:14:19 ACTION: Dan to explain issues and actions on the telecon. 19:14:21 So now you can just look at that URI 19:14:27 action-1? 19:14:50 \invite trackbot 19:14:53 trackbot has joined #federated 19:14:53 Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel 19:14:53 If you want to associate this channel with an existing Tracker, please say 'trackbot, associate this channel with #channel' (where #channel is the name of default channel for the group) 19:15:06 ACTION: hhalpin to setup trackbot 19:15:06 Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel 19:15:20 basically, bugzilla for standards 19:15:23 Wow 19:15:45 Are these available in the time between telecons? 19:15:50 http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc 19:15:59 Yes Evan, they are, except trackbot, which has to be setup 19:16:28 Zakim, q+ about "canonical" channels for conversation 19:16:28 evan, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...' 19:16:41 Dan: I suggest using trackbot to track issues and actions... 19:16:56 q? 19:17:05 q+ evan 19:17:17 ack evan 19:17:57 Evan: One question is about canonical channels for conversations. Is it true that if it's not on the mailing list (or some other channel) it's ignored, etc...? 19:18:04 + +1.870.413.aaii 19:18:39 Harry: Typically, that's how it works - there's a single listserv. On federated social web that's not the case. Things are happing on different channels... 19:18:57 Web URI 19:18:59 ... we should have that discussion about what the default channel of conversation should be. 19:19:24 ... for the time being, it would be great if people could list channels we should monitor. 19:19:35 Good idea 19:19:35 agenda+ Activity Streams and Lists to monitor 19:20:05 bman has joined #federated 19:20:33 Dan: we're going to not be strict with process, and we're not going to have the issue of it's not on the mailing-list it doesn't exist" 19:21:04 eschnou has joined #federated 19:21:13 Harry: Feel free to ask any questions on w3c... 19:21:24 question: any idea on how soon this will become a community group? 19:21:30 yes 19:21:48 Zucks has joined #federated 19:22:11 q+ about standards frm outside 19:22:16 ... w3c's main value add is patents - w3c has a patent policy. It doesn't say that there are no patents. It says that if there are patents, you cannot ask for royalties [you give an implicit royalty-free license to these patents, unless you specifically exclude.] 19:22:21 q+ 19:22:23 + +1.415.230.aajj 19:22:27 hrmm 19:22:32 ack evan 19:22:34 ack evan 19:22:55 i'm in, on mute, sorry for being late, had to debug my network :-) 19:22:55 note that we are not going to enforce w3c patent policy on this group 19:23:19 unless the group decides they want to. 19:23:28 Evan: The description of the federated social web group that we have is to recommend standards moving forward. Are there previous examples in w3c we could look to - efforts about "cherrypicking" other standards? 19:24:20 Harry: EG for XML schema languages - there have been various proposals from different communities. Same thing is going on for video right now - finding an appropriate video codec for html5. 19:24:30 ... there's not a set process for it. 19:24:47 ... w3c could take anything as a starting point... 19:25:05 q+ to mention mobile web best practices as somewhat of a template. 19:25:27 ack DKA 19:25:27 DKA, you wanted to mention mobile web best practices as somewhat of a template. 19:25:34 ... we are working with OWF to make sure that specs that have gone through OWF process can be "referenced". 19:26:20 the general idea that we hope is that OWF-licensed software can easily get a W3C RFF, and Rosen etc. is working with W3C PSIG and our lawyer on this. 19:26:41 DKA: We've done similar work in the mobile web best-practiced 19:26:51 q+ 19:26:58 ack brad 19:27:23 Brad: i was wondering - when will this become a community group? 19:28:39 Harry: the community group process will allow individuals to participate as individuals, be more light-weight. the schedule for this process being in place will be end of Q1 2011. Then we'll switch. Until then we will be an incubator group with an open door policy. 19:28:45 end of Q1 2011 19:28:55 that's like March or April... 19:29:01 Can we have variable times? 19:29:09 There were questions from far-east participants 19:29:20 And Australians 19:29:23 Dan: I think we need to decide a teleconference time. 19:29:31 +1 for variable time, so different TZ can join from time to time... 19:29:38 Ben that did Elgg? 19:29:41 I don't see him 19:29:49 which ben? 19:29:56 +1 to an earlier time. 19:30:00 im ben werd? 19:30:06 not me 19:30:09 srry 19:30:14 bman = ben who worked on elgg 19:30:18 If we target three timezone zones... like Europe, East Asia, and the Americas 19:30:18 Ben Werdmuller von Elgg 19:30:22 2 bens from elgg 19:30:23 haha 19:30:26 +1 to a variable time as well. 19:30:28 We could rotate it 19:30:40 4:00 am too early 19:30:46 ACTION: hhalpin to find an earlier time 19:30:46 Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel 19:30:49 Everyone's going to get a crappy time some time 19:30:53 Zucks has left #federated 19:30:57 Spread the pain of living on a round globe 19:31:14 im the easy one about time 19:31:16 +1 evan 19:31:38 Dan: If we do a teleconference a month and rotate the time, I think that's a good compromise. 19:31:49 topic: Evan on Federated Social Web status and future directions 19:31:49 Harry: Over to Evan 19:32:08 Evan: Thanks - I've been thinking about "where are we" on the FSW... 19:32:09 bblfish1 has joined #federated 19:32:19 ... consumer trends, business trends... 19:32:23 fyi ben werd does not actively work on elgg anyway 19:32:33 ... there are continuing pressures to see more federation between these systems. 19:32:44 @bman, are you working on elgg actively? 19:32:47 yes 19:33:07 .... 2010 was a big year from the FSW. We've seen a move away from theoretical towards practical. 19:33:09 its in a transitional period as elgg is moving to a foundation 19:33:23 +1, excellent. Maybe we should do a go around on the "state of play" of various federated social web codebases after Evan... 19:33:31 ... where we are right now - we have a few candidate sets of protocols. Technology areas that are moving into the distributed social web space. 19:33:42 brettproffitt is the head of the project but just lost backing of elgg.com due to being sold 19:33:52 ... one is the "ostatus" stack. Which is a stack based on pubsubhubub, activitystreams, salmon and webfinger. 19:34:09 ... work well together but lack some features around privacy. 19:34:09 SimonTennantBuddy has joined #federated 19:34:24 ... there are others. E.g. OneSocialWeb that depends on activity streams plus XMPP. 19:34:41 ... Fredica, Appleseed, Diaspora - all have done some work in this area. 19:34:44 but caedes and me are the only ones working with federated elgg as far as i know atm 19:35:02 ... one of the delicate balances we have to do is not to stomp on creativity in this area. 19:35:11 agreed 19:35:20 ... what we can do is to encourage these processes. 19:35:33 agree, allows for best implementations to happen 19:35:47 ... we can encourage people who are making these systems to hold up their protocols and software to meta-standards and meta-tests. 19:36:00 im fine with more standards because ostatus wont fit all use cases 19:36:15 ... In 2010 at the federated social web summit, we defined SWAT0 test - proposed by David R. 19:36:37 ... it was a simple test use case that insisted that people be on different implementations / code-bases. 19:37:01 ... one of the things we can do as a group is to first highlight these kind of tests and help implementers meet these tests and encourage them to do so.... 19:37:16 ... secondly to develop further tests. 19:37:33 ... SWAT0 is the first one. We should develop SWAT1, SWAT2, and so on... 19:37:46 ... what further functionality should we expect out of the federated social web? 19:38:11 joeyguerra has joined #federated 19:38:24 ... this is an exciting time - social web is big and important. The understanding that there are lots of implementations and networks that aren't going away 19:38:37 +1 to a focus on interop 19:38:39 hey guys. sorry, i'm just joining. 19:38:50 +1 for me too on interop 19:38:54 \me np joey, feel free to dial in if you can 19:38:58 k. 19:38:58 @evan do you have any statistics to share on the spread of ostatus today ? E.g. how many "nodes" ? 19:39:00 Zakim, what's the code? 19:39:00 the conference code is 37994 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), hhalpin 19:39:04 ... As a group, we can say "this is real" - that this is a pragmatic thing. We can add a lot to making these systems valuable. 19:39:05 there's the numbers joey 19:39:17 q? 19:39:18 q? 19:39:52 @eschnou, you can put yourself on the "queue" by just typing q+ into IRC 19:39:57 q+ 19:40:02 q- 19:40:11 @hhalpin thanks :-) 19:40:20 + +1.214.682.aakk 19:40:33 q+ 19:40:41 i'm on the call now. 19:40:44 thanks. 19:41:10 Zakim, aakk is joeyguerra 19:41:10 +joeyguerra; got it 19:41:20 q+ 19:41:23 huh? 19:41:25 ack eschnou 19:41:30 ah. yeah. 19:41:38 yes, I can hear you 19:41:39 Dan: Just supporting your remarks on interop. 19:41:59 i guess swat1 is the focus to reach interop? 19:42:01 ... in OSW we are prioritizing interop in our development timeline. 19:42:31 don't forget the foaf and WebID crowd 19:42:33 we haven't started focusing on it, but i guess we will if there's going to be activity/focus on it by others. 19:42:44 Laurent: I wanted to say - yes, it's exciting for federated social web, but in terms of usage, what do we have? What is the status of federation of ostatus? How many nodes, how many people, etc...? 19:43:52 Evan: On Ostatus - because it's an agglomeration of other protocols, it's possible to partially enable it. Google buzz is an example - they have implemented pubsubhubub so I can follow them for status net but they can't follow me back... 19:44:04 -MikeMackintosh 19:44:31 status net uses foaf 19:44:50 is there a problem getting ssl certs to implement foaf? 19:44:52 foaf xmpp and ostatus are all being used by me 19:45:03 foaf with ssl? 19:45:03 ... on Status.net for implementation - the stack is defined as what status.net implements - for status.net we have somewhere larger than 40,000 site running on our cloud service - range in size from single-user to identi.ca - so 350,000 users roughly. 19:45:08 on a dedicated server? 19:45:13 or shared hosting account? 19:45:20 ... we have about 10 to 15k other status.net sites outside of the share hosting. 19:45:39 q+ 19:45:40 do they all of ssl? 19:45:46 @DKA? 19:46:09 the caedes elgg implementation requires ssl 19:46:12 no status net does not yet use foaf with ssl. But its not a lot of work to enable it. And it could use the foaf a lot more creatively and usefully. But it does publish foaf, one of the big foaf publishers 19:46:13 ... but Ostatus isn't the clear winner. I don't think that numbers today indicate that. but we're seeing a lot of users. 19:47:14 the reason things are slow to happen is that it takes the network effect 19:47:19 Laurent: Users are using the technology but are they using the federation concept? Are they federating with other notes? Do people understand the concept of federation? With swat0 we could make a distributed twitter. The world is ready to move to a decentralized twitter but it's not happening. WHat do we need to do which is not technology oriented to make this happen? 19:47:31 which is something that is slow to develop. 19:47:45 true: combinging networks is a good way of putting things 19:47:58 Evan: I'd love to address that. We should not frame things in a negative way though - but in a positive way - let's connect networks that already exist. 19:48:21 ... there are social networks outside of the biggest social networks. For those, how should we connect them? 19:48:23 +1 19:48:30 combining networks is a good way to get the momentum in order to allow decentralised networks to exist. 19:48:38 ack hhalpin 19:48:41 q- 19:48:42 ... I look more to the enterprise use cases than to the [consumer] use cases. 19:48:59 q+ 19:49:34 Harry: That's why I thought there might be a fit between the w3c and the federated social web. We can't tell people "you have to implement my software" - but we can work on standards and make different code bases interoperate. including test cases. 19:49:55 ack brad 19:49:58 invi has joined #federated 19:50:02 ... in w3c - most of our work has been based in browsers - and we've been excited by work on social agents in the browsers. We'd like to support it more. 19:50:27 q+ brad 19:50:37 Topic: Short-term goals 19:51:04 where in Europe? 19:51:12 Evan: One goal - a new federated social web gathering of some kind. We have an offer of space and time in Europe [Berlin] in early June. 19:51:27 what about Fosdem next month ? Anyone around for some meeting/hackfest/interop ? 19:51:31 There has been an offer from some non-profit foundation (Herman Boell?) to host another Federated Social Web summit? 19:51:50 And yes, outreach and hacking at FOSDEM is also another great idea... 19:51:50 I will be at FOSDEM and be presenting and running a hacking workshop there. Happy to arrange. 19:51:55 ... this would be a great opportunity to bring people together. Our previous federated social web summit was in portland - a bit difficult. We have an opportunity to make this a bigger deal. Finally we can user this as a way to reach out to people who haven't been active before. 19:52:23 it would be great to "broadcast" that conference via the federated web. 19:52:36 especially as a "case study". 19:52:38 ... our event before - you had to be working on federated social web technologies to attend. That was successful, but was not [as open]. 19:52:41 of what could be done. 19:52:44 im too far away and unfunded for any travel 19:52:53 yeah, me too. 19:53:00 ... one thing we need to work on in the immediate term : nailing down the time, the format, and the invite list. 19:53:11 but if it was "broadcasted" with an adhoc federated network, i could participate. 19:53:19 indeed as could i 19:53:29 yes we should definitely broadcast it 19:53:50 ... Next goal : we should work on defining what the next SWAT tests should be. Should they be around specific use cases - photo sharing, video sharing, events, etc... 19:53:50 and we could ask to see if there would be some sort of travel grants as well if we can find the funding... 19:54:27 cool for privacy 19:54:34 ... another idea - topological ways to look at the tests. Privacy is an important issue. We'd like to challenge participants to come up with implementations [that support privacy]. 19:54:48 indeed 19:54:57 yeah, privacy seems important. 19:54:59 so discuss for a week a number of use-cases over the list. 19:55:03 q+ 19:55:04 ... should we set some goals to make a decision by our next telecon [for swat 1]? Similar for making decisions for the get-together. 19:55:04 sounds good 19:55:08 ack brad 19:55:10 but implementing a swatx test seems more important. 19:56:10 I'd like to move wholesale the FSW google group and FSW wiki to W3c systems 19:56:10 is the mailing list working now, btw? 19:56:16 Brad: interaction between the different projects - one important thing would be to invite more of the groups that are working on distributed projects. If this looks like the main central place where projects will be working with eachother, we could do more with bringing in more projects. 19:56:16 not sure if I am on it yet 19:56:21 ack hhalpin 19:56:22 does anyone have a central site to collaborate? 19:57:13 Harry: One thing w3c does offer, if people want this - if a test suite can be specified in code, w3c has tools that could run the tests, record results, etc... 19:57:13 who's driving moving the FSW group to w3c? 19:57:34 brad i thought 19:57:57 ... second thing - do we want to move the current wiki and listserv over to w3c wiki and listserv? 19:58:05 ... w3c can run media wiki. 19:58:05 do other people think it would be possible to setup a federated group (i was thinking about ostatus) for collaboration? 19:58:18 ... if people are ok with that, I could make it happen. 19:58:30 ... or we could keep going with the google group and current wiki. 19:58:37 rather not use google 19:58:40 personally 19:59:22 what's the pros and cons? 19:59:23 I suggest making a strawpoll on each issue separately - list, wiki, etc... 19:59:23 Question: Are we OK moving to a W3C list? 19:59:26 +1 19:59:27 +1 19:59:28 (you can also say +0) 19:59:29 +1 19:59:30 +1 19:59:32 +1 19:59:34 +1 19:59:35 +1 19:59:36 +0 19:59:38 hellekin has joined #federated 19:59:39 +0 19:59:42 +1 to moving mailing list. 19:59:51 hi there 20:00:05 Are the archives easy to search by external people ? 20:00:06 can we make sure the archives to the list are public please. 20:00:26 is irc being logged caedes? 20:00:38 then +1 for me as well 20:00:41 nice 20:00:41 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-federatedsocialweb/ 20:00:48 +1 20:00:55 Move Wiki over? 20:00:56 i think important to make joining and participating as open as possible 20:00:57 +0 to wiki 20:01:00 bman: i didn't configure the channel 20:01:03 +1 20:01:04 k 20:01:08 we can even redirect it 20:01:11 +0.5 20:01:15 so it's transparent 20:01:19 we'll set-up redirects 20:01:22 +0.5 not allowed 20:01:22 anyone know where irc is being logged to? 20:01:29 +1 20:01:31 RRSAgent, make minutes 20:01:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-federated-minutes.html hhalpin 20:01:32 +053 20:01:33 hhalpin: can we set these as actions TBD before next meeting? 20:01:42 @bman: http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-federated-minutes.htm 20:01:48 to be done 20:01:58 ACTION: hhalpin to work with evan to migrate list and wiki over 20:01:58 Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel 20:02:08 q+ 20:02:12 @bman http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-federated-minutes.html 20:02:15 ACTION on Harry to set up trackbot. 20:02:15 Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel 20:02:17 RRSAgent, make logs public 20:02:20 ack evan 20:02:27 thanks much 20:02:41 thanks for organizing it. 20:02:48 i look forward to contributing. 20:03:11 indeed 20:03:20 gotta go. cya'll next time. 20:03:22 @evan do groups support federation, or is it SWAT27 :-) 20:03:29 agree. 20:03:30 -joeyguerra 20:03:31 eschnou: yes 20:03:32 Evan: my only question on dogfooding on FSW - there is no one FSW today - we have different camps. I'm happy to set up a group on oststus (on status.net) as needed but my only concern is for those folks working on other protocols... 20:03:39 +1 setting up a statusnet group for this 20:03:46 @evan nice ! will have to try that one. 20:03:50 but I could reasonably see there might be objections 20:03:50 can an ostatus test group be setup to allow people to start trying to gateway the different implementations? 20:04:03 It's a bit early to decide on a federated technology, though it can be good to try many things out. 20:04:23 i think thats a bad ideal, as we want FSW to be more than just ostatus. 20:04:51 interop should be seperated between protocol and transport (http, xmpp, carrier pidgeon) 20:04:59 could we do it on lots? 20:05:01 i agree 20:05:03 +q to what Simon said. 20:05:08 q- 20:05:12 q+ 20:05:18 ack bblfish 20:05:21 no reason i couldnt read/write to ostatus from xmpp 20:05:32 scribenick: hhalpin 20:05:46 -DKA 20:05:54 thanks DKA 20:06:19 it would be great to populate the wiki more 20:06:31 with more info on what the actual different stacks are... 20:06:45 bblfish: We should work on interoperability first and foremost 20:07:03 that was bblfish from Berlin 20:07:23 has anyone questioned wheter this is possible? 20:07:28 i think interoping would require implementing a specfic protocol, in essence picking one. 20:07:54 evan: not sure if interop between protocols is a reasonable goal, instead we want interop between systems 20:08:19 i implement more than one at duuit and its a pain for maint 20:08:22 ... it's not always good to have a single protocol overwhelm 20:08:31 I agree. ideally we should have no protocol to write 20:08:34 yeah. maintenance is pain, totally agree. 20:08:38 ... so lets separate protocol from data-structure 20:08:40 we should all be able to do this over http :-) 20:08:43 bbl agreed 20:08:49 hhalpin agreed 20:09:01 I agree, separate protocol but trying to use same data structures 20:09:28 what do ya'll want to use for data structure? 20:09:53 does ostatus define a data structure? 20:09:54 e-mail list? 20:10:05 yes, sounds like a good e-mail list idea 20:10:06 +1 for email 20:10:07 agenda? 20:10:10 k. 20:10:22 q+ 20:10:37 evan: we have quite a bit to do 20:10:46 ... moving systems 20:10:53 ... discussing next test-cases 20:11:01 +1 20:11:12 There is the HAR in Berlin btw 20:11:13 +1 20:11:14 as long as its broadcast +1 20:11:18 first week in berlin for another federated social web? 20:11:19 i still have to imlement swat0 in my project. 20:11:20 cant go in person 20:11:21 that's the big hacker conference 20:11:21 when is HAR? 20:11:36 also CCC camp in Berlin in summer. 20:11:53 11-14 August I think 20:11:53 no objections 20:12:02 have dropped off audio, will read typescript, bye all 20:12:04 may just be too close from OSCON ? 20:12:05 yeah. i can't be there in person. but i'd love to implement SOME form of federation to receive "tweets" from it in my system. 20:12:11 q- 20:12:15 -WardCunningham 20:12:15 Meeting adjourned 20:12:24 RRSAgent, make minutes 20:12:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-federated-minutes.html hhalpin 20:12:24 Great! 20:12:27 thanks alot everyone, good progress 20:12:33 Woot 20:12:35 RRSAgent, make logs public 20:12:38 w00t 20:12:42 -SimonTenant 20:12:45 adios. 20:12:49 Thanks indeed ! Cheers ! 20:12:52 - +43.838.0aahh 20:12:55 -bblfish 20:13:05 -bear 20:13:06 eschnou has left #federated 20:13:11 -Brad 20:13:12 - +1.415.230.aajj 20:13:19 -hhalpin 20:14:10 brad has left #federated 20:14:13 Zakim, who's on the phone? 20:14:13 On the phone I see Mark, +1.870.413.aaii 20:14:34 -Mark 20:15:02 hah 20:15:13 im still updating ppl upstream 20:15:27 http://events.ccc.de/2010/08/10/chaos-communication-camp-2011/ 20:15:32 that's for the Berlin camp 20:16:00 for people who like hacking, testing security protocols, learning about flaws in SSL etc 20:16:16 i would love to go 20:16:33 but there is 0$ funding elgg atm 20:16:41 for example this talk was an eye opener for me at the cccc in December http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6xsv4azzpc 20:16:53 bman, where are you located? 20:17:05 i live in omaha, nebraska, usa 20:17:13 currently im in arkansas tho 20:17:26 ah ok, USA…. yep, that's a bit of a distance 20:17:30 indeed 20:17:35 cant walk if i tried 20:17:46 - +1.870.413.aaii 20:17:47 INC_SWXG(FSWXG)2:00PM has ended 20:17:48 heh. 20:17:48 Attendees were +1.503.432.aaaa, +1.202.375.aabb, hhalpin, bear, +49.178.545.aacc, +1.510.931.aadd, +1.973.650.aaee, +81.15.622.aaff, +1.617.715.aagg, DKA, MikeMackintosh, 20:17:51 ... SimonTenant, WardCunningham, Mark, Brad, bblfish, +43.838.0aahh, +1.870.413.aaii, +1.415.230.aajj, +1.214.682.aakk, joeyguerra 20:18:07 i like that irc bot 20:18:10 pretty neat 20:18:23 RRSAgent, make minutes 20:18:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-federated-minutes.html hhalpin 20:18:28 RRSAgent, make logs public 20:18:38 very cool indeed 20:18:41 And hopefully we can eventually integrate activity streams and sort of stuff into this IRC bot 20:18:45 but you can read all about it 20:18:57 its quite sophisticated for an irc bot 20:19:09 bman: do you have some elgg instance with ostatus support? 20:19:15 http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html 20:19:25 http://www.w3.org/2002/03/RRSAgent 20:19:25 we did the same types of things in our bots until the last few months when we abandonded irc for xmpp muc 20:19:37 caedes i have a version of duuit.com in testing 20:19:39 nothing live yet 20:19:43 yes we've discussed migrating to xmpp, and the bots too 20:20:02 hhalpin, its not a big deal with a irc gateway as i have done 20:20:05 xmpp++ 20:20:11 whats your email bman? 20:20:21 we are looking at these sort of migrations over the next few months 20:20:22 bman@duuit.com or bhgraham1@gmail.com 20:20:38 cool, ok, we'll get in touch, what gateway did you end up using? 20:20:59 module for our xmpp (ejabber) server that we modified 20:21:07 ok cool. 20:21:17 ejabber module works out of the box but its not the best 20:21:25 let me know if you need xmpp help - i'm on the xmpp board and can find resources 20:21:27 confuses alot of irc users 20:21:51 great, we definitely want IRC/XMPP interop for W3C telecons 20:21:58 i agree 20:22:10 im slowly phasing myself away from irc as much as possible 20:22:19 but we can't abandon IRC lots of w3c folks use it of course, but a gateway would be perfect 20:22:39 thats what i did to get people off of it 20:22:48 i could gateway from my xmpp to any irc server 20:22:55 so i could gateway this without problem 20:24:09 caedes i couldnt use your implementation directly as it was based on a fork of elgg 1.7 and my current tree is a fork from 1.8 elgg 20:24:44 ok, are you working on something then? 20:24:59 we're aiming to migrate to 1.8 soon, but we're not in a hurry 20:25:11 yes but i got delayed a while due to hardware issues 20:25:29 elgg is so up in the air atm 20:25:51 1.8 should have been done long ago but with the funding gone now there is no telling when it will be "done" 20:26:05 as far as i know there is only 2 sites using 1.8 based trees 20:26:07 maybe time for a freeze then :) 20:26:09 elgg.com and duuit.com 20:26:27 brett is no longer being paid 20:26:51 ok.. maybe another strategy would be in order then 20:27:11 let them have time to get the elgg foundation up and running but ill keep working on the code in the meantime 20:27:41 i would love to work with you on it 20:27:45 thing is 1.8 shouldnt delay a lot more 20:28:01 i agree no point in 7 dot releases of 1.7 20:28:23 bman: are you committing to the Elgg tree? 20:28:37 maybe you can organize some kind of irc elgg briefing with brett and cash and other commiters 20:28:56 yes, they're a bit sparse on IRC 20:28:59 yes but i am maintaining a fork that is not quite the same as mine is xmpp based as well as standard elgg 20:29:13 xmpp based? 20:29:15 uri? 20:29:21 cash doesnt use irc and brett only used it when he was paid 20:29:26 hehe 20:29:28 but im sure i could get them together 20:29:48 irc / xmpp / anywhere chat 20:29:50 xmpp backend as well, posting from/to xmpp etc 20:30:01 with ejabberd? 20:30:05 yes 20:30:12 what do you mean by xmpp backend? 20:30:22 i was working on federating via xmpp before you ever started on ostatus 20:30:42 aha 20:30:51 logins, posting etc 20:31:00 RRSAgent, make minutes 20:31:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-federated-minutes.html hhalpin 20:31:12 we have worked a bit on elgg and ejabberd integration (based on beechat) 20:31:40 maybe we can go to #elgg or #lorea on freenode? 20:31:50 SimonTennantBuddy has left #federated 20:32:12 i didnt use beechat either mine was before it as well 20:32:26 is your module published? 20:32:27 bman: where is yours? 20:32:35 joeyguerra has left #federated 20:32:38 auth is handled by ldap 20:32:49 i contributed to beechat 20:32:56 hellekin, duuit.com 20:33:04 ok thanks 20:33:10 the problem is that my implemtnation is diff from all others 20:33:40 code.duuit.com is where i keep posting my code 20:33:53 but im behind atm since my laptop has been dead a couple of months 20:34:00 back up and going now 20:34:09 cool :) 20:35:26 ill be back on #elgg more when i get back home in the next couple of weeks then i will update my code trees 20:35:35 great 20:35:55 i still dont like the current systems for auth 20:36:43 ldap is the head of elgg and xmpp whereas beechat is using elgg for auth 20:37:12 i am writing to ldap as well and no other site i know of is doing that 20:37:29 i shouldnt have forked elgg but now its so far i dont know how to get back in line 20:37:36 hehe 20:37:49 i thought elgg would have at least caught up to 1.8 by now 20:38:33 we need to talk altogether and have some visibility on where Elgg is going 20:38:51 indeed, its all up in the air with the shakup of curverider 20:39:16 curverider pushed elgg.com (1.8) to the detriment of the OSS project 20:39:45 used all resources to get their version out but then killed paid devel 20:39:56 when did they kill it? 20:40:19 well, I think it's fair to come up with a better code base, but the burden on plugin developers is risky 20:40:54 the company was absourbed by one of their investors 20:41:01 this happened in the last week or so 20:41:38 it wasnt about the code base being better it was about getting their commercial version out (with no full sources provided to the community) 20:42:11 ah yuck 20:42:12 curverider had a habit of not being good oss 20:42:40 but now its out of their hands as to the direction i expect good things 20:42:50 cash and brett are both great 20:42:54 i always saw them as quite friendly but ok 20:42:57 the company needed to go 20:43:22 brett was just a employee of curverider 20:43:55 there was alot of times i foudn mentions of code that was maintained in the tree but not open source 20:43:59 like their sms plugin for elgg 20:44:08 so, the foundation is created by whom? 20:44:18 i had to rewrite it backwards compatible to fill in the gap 20:44:29 foundation is being headed by brettproffitt 20:44:48 but he just basically got laid off so hes going to need time 20:45:02 sounds ok 20:45:07 i heard ben werd offered to help as well 20:45:12 cash is in 20:45:36 maybe he would like to live in a squat in Am*dam for a while :) 20:45:52 doubt he would 20:45:53 hahaha 20:46:36 i been working without pay on this for quite a while now 20:46:58 we're quite enthusiastic about 1.8, but waiting for it to stabilize to merge our fork, which i think could take at most a few days 20:47:26 it wont take long to get most up and running 20:47:35 but you should work on moving your forked code to modules 20:47:46 yes that's the plan 20:48:02 very nice, i would love to help 20:48:14 combine the implementations 20:48:20 but we need to figure out where to add hooks, and how to include some futnctionlity into core. 20:48:50 just stabilize 1.8 and then if we can discuss a few fast issues it will be a breeze 20:48:50 well 1.9 elgg is supposed to be federated so once 1.8 is out im sure more core devs would help 20:48:58 With the code changing everyday without too much visibility, it's a bit like Sysyphus 20:49:20 indeed, the only people doing amazing things are having to do it with forks 20:49:51 there is currently only like 3 people working on core dev anymore 20:49:55 and SVN doesn't help: fast-forwarding alwayl fails :] 20:49:55 and noone is being paid to do it 20:50:10 small forks, but we havent commited a lot of work to getting them upstream 20:50:17 yeah i based off svn about 5 months ago and the core still hasnt caught up to me 20:50:23 well, we're not paid for that either 20:50:42 elgg - the only non paid group working on this level shit 20:50:44 hahaha 20:51:03 faith in the good code > $ 20:52:09 well guys i would love to keep chatting on this but i have to run. i will try to stay on irc #elgg more this week and I emailed brett about getting all of us together in a chatroom again 20:52:18 ok, cool 20:52:29 i should be back fulltime in another week when i go home 20:52:54 have a good one and keep up the great work ! 20:52:58 peace 20:53:22 MacTed has joined #federated 20:53:23 yeah 22:00:12 bman has joined #federated 22:20:04 bman has joined #federated