IRC log of html-a11y on 2011-01-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:04:38 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
20:04:38 [RRSAgent]
logging to
20:04:40 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
20:04:40 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #html-a11y
20:04:42 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
20:04:42 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)3:00PM scheduled to start 4 minutes ago
20:04:43 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
20:04:43 [trackbot]
Date: 10 January 2011
20:05:06 [oedipus]
zakim, i am Gregory_Rosmaita
20:05:06 [Zakim]
sorry, oedipus, I do not see a party named 'Gregory_Rosmaita'
20:05:25 [oedipus]
zakim, who is on the phone?
20:05:25 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(A11Y)3:00PM has not yet started, oedipus
20:05:26 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfe, oedipus, MikeSmith, jongunderson, MichaelC, sideshow, trackbot
20:05:52 [richardschwerdtfe]
Meeting: HTML Canvas Accessibility subteam meeting
20:06:03 [oedipus]
zakim, this is WAI_PFWG(A11Y)
20:06:03 [Zakim]
ok, oedipus; that matches WAI_PFWG(A11Y)3:00PM
20:06:11 [oedipus]
zakim, who is on the phone
20:06:11 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the phone', oedipus
20:06:13 [oedipus]
zakim, who is on the phone?
20:06:13 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.802.362.aaaa, Rich, +1.802.362.aabb, +1.949.637.aacc, Gregory_Rosmaita
20:06:36 [oedipus]
regrets: Frank_Oliver
20:07:03 [richardschwerdtfe]
can you call in Gregory?
20:07:09 [oedipus]
i'm on the phone
20:07:19 [oedipus]
zakim, who is here?
20:07:19 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.802.362.aaaa, Rich, +1.802.362.aabb, +1.949.637.aacc, Gregory_Rosmaita
20:07:21 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfe, oedipus, MikeSmith, jongunderson, MichaelC, sideshow, trackbot
20:07:57 [oedipus]
zakim, aacc is Chuck_Pritchard
20:07:57 [Zakim]
+Chuck_Pritchard; got it
20:08:08 [oedipus]
scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
20:08:11 [oedipus]
scribenick: oedipus
20:08:24 [oedipus]
TOPIC: State of Canvas A11y
20:08:28 [oedipus]
Tim Lalor: senior engineer, AISquared (make ZoomText)
20:09:08 [oedipus]
Shawn Warren from AI Squared
20:09:27 [oedipus]
zakim, aaaa is Tim_Lalor
20:09:27 [Zakim]
+Tim_Lalor; got it
20:09:40 [oedipus]
zakim, aabb is Shawn_Warren
20:09:40 [Zakim]
+Shawn_Warren; got it
20:09:45 [oedipus]
zakim, who is here?
20:09:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Tim_Lalor, Rich, Shawn_Warren, Chuck_Pritchard, Gregory_Rosmaita
20:09:47 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfe, oedipus, MikeSmith, jongunderson, MichaelC, sideshow, trackbot
20:09:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
20:10:23 [oedipus]
20:10:26 [oedipus]
20:10:29 [oedipus]
20:10:30 [swarren]
swarren has joined #html-a11y
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Downchuck has joined #html-a11y
20:10:51 [Zakim]
20:10:57 [swarren]
20:11:12 [oedipus]
20:11:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
20:12:01 [oedipus]
CP: magnification brings unique challanges -- doing zoom doesn't garuntee magnification
20:12:07 [oedipus]
RS: what canvas is in HTML5
20:12:40 [oedipus]
RS: canvas isn't a lot different from windows -- drawing to canvas in windows environment -- big issue for a11y -- how to convey info to an accessibility API on any given platform
20:12:46 [oedipus]
RS: got fairly long way along
20:13:04 [oedipus]
RS: created inside of CANVAS (uses javascript to draw items on canvas)
20:13:54 [oedipus]
RS: inside of CANVAS to make accessible, created sub-tree in UA so that can create HTML elements representative of objects drawn to canvas can be mapped to a11y API -- could alos markup with ARIA -- all would populate a11y API
20:14:25 [oedipus]
RS: magnification problems: DOM MVC via javascript, what is in sub-tree isn't drawn on canvas -- positions of elements don't map to what one actually sees on canvas
20:14:34 [oedipus]
RS: no a11y API where js can do stuff like that
20:14:44 [oedipus]
RS: what info is absolutely essential for screen magnification?
20:15:24 [oedipus]
RS: proposal - FocusRing would be trackable from a11y APIs
20:15:39 [oedipus]
RS: caret positioning proposal -- is this enough for magnification?
20:16:11 [oedipus]
RS: clipping of text and exposition of clipped text -- issue for magnification if no positioning info -- other strategies?
20:16:27 [oedipus]
RS: move focus position to content -- moves focus position on screen?
20:16:46 [oedipus]
RS: trying to walk fine line: what is necessary for author to do and AT to have
20:16:59 [oedipus]
TL: looks like CANVAS is opaque to us right now
20:17:35 [oedipus]
TL: few pieces: focus events are key -- need to know where to track the view -- if can capture focus event, will help us understand where viewport of magnifier should focus on -- FocusRing
20:17:53 [oedipus]
TL: caret tracking also fundamental for screen mag -- maintain in view and wrap in locator
20:18:08 [oedipus]
RS: have to get WG sign-off on FocusRing proposal -- waiting for MS feedback
20:18:33 [oedipus]
RS: changes to spec that refer to that -- example of 2 checkboxes (don't have FocusRing drawing in API)
20:18:41 [oedipus]
20:18:56 [oedipus]
TL: used ARIA-selection of "no-width" for caret
20:19:11 [oedipus]
RS: for caret istelf, yes -- proposal is caret selection would know if RTE
20:19:30 [oedipus]
RS: added API to 2D Canvas context
20:19:45 [oedipus]
RS: use actual textfield or checkbox in subtree -- process as usual, provide positioning info
20:20:05 [oedipus]
TL: scrolling into view as content consumed and presented to user, need to highlight words
20:20:47 [oedipus]
TL: imagine canvas a single sentence clipped by bounding rectange; need to drive presentation of canvas (scroll to left) -- 2 parts: position info; being able to drive viewport of canvas itself
20:21:04 [oedipus]
RS: charles is our resident canvas expert
20:21:14 [oedipus]
RS: can't markup position of text in sub-tree
20:21:22 [oedipus]
CP: can't do with textarea -- no API for this
20:21:41 [oedipus]
SW: have ScroolTo -- API not there -- nothing to model on to write in standards
20:22:06 [oedipus]
SW: done RTE with scroll bars; know where cursor is; TEXTAREA element is quite basic; contenteditable also very basic
20:22:35 [oedipus]
RS: question: if have ability to move caret position thorugh a11y APIs, would that be picked up by app for positioning
20:22:55 [oedipus]
SW: will work if trying to navigate between text; but if want to scroll down 20 pixels, how does one do that?
20:23:25 [oedipus]
SW: single-line text editing with input box laid over picture -- if type a lot, shifts to left -- HTML forms a "bit" deficient in this area
20:23:32 [oedipus]
TL: static content and dynamic content
20:23:56 [oedipus]
TL: is there way to scroll data content so can use highlight as march across section; scroll when reach right edge
20:24:29 [oedipus]
SW: setting caret position good enough for most of that -- can be recalculated before scroll -- automatic word-wrapping a BIG problem
20:25:01 [oedipus]
SW: looking at windows API -- magnifier is a sub-window that accesses same content at diff zoom level and may have diff selection objects
20:25:29 [oedipus]
SW: another issue: when zoom in using UA zoom, CANVAS doesn't know how to handle content -- ensure not blurry -- pixel offset needs to be tackled
20:26:00 [oedipus]
TL: selection and caret location: 1 distinct case is diff controls and selection events for multiple characters and words selected
20:26:15 [oedipus]
TL: raised as events? caret move with selection? or mouse selection across text
20:26:22 [oedipus]
CP: have OnSelectStart
20:26:30 [oedipus]
CP: related to input method edititors
20:26:58 [oedipus]
CP: onSelectStart only selection event -- more would be helpful
20:27:34 [oedipus]
CP: some push-back on input method editinig -- should it be up to OS, browser vendor? when UA vendor hasn't implemented, what to do?
20:27:52 [oedipus]
CP: this is a good use case -- can't get anywhere without additions to APIs
20:27:55 [oedipus]
CP: will help counter push-back
20:28:01 [oedipus]
CP: bare essentials necessary
20:28:16 [oedipus]
CP: need scroll events and selection events that work in TEXTAREA
20:28:56 [oedipus]
TL: help us in dynamic area - -when user typing to know what selected -- could span more than is visible -- helps to know what user is actually selecting so can keep scrolling view and can tell user what is happening
20:29:33 [oedipus]
TL: watch text and background colors
20:29:49 [oedipus]
TL: when API available, use it; when not available, have heuristics
20:29:58 [oedipus]
CP: list of API holes?
20:30:11 [oedipus]
CP: or incomplete implementation of API
20:31:00 [oedipus]
RS: AT immunity -- have to be cognizant of propritary methods
20:31:11 [oedipus]
TL: use open standards -- focus on APIs not heuristics
20:31:42 [oedipus]
CP: heuristics too hairy for me -- you guys know the standards -- if anything you can share for input method would be appreciated
20:31:56 [oedipus]
TL: using MSAA standard Windows events and UIA
20:32:04 [oedipus]
TL: evaluating UIA's integrity
20:32:18 [oedipus]
GJR: IAccessible2?
20:32:29 [oedipus]
TL: playing with it--in roadmap -- other higher priorities
20:32:43 [oedipus]
RS: can you post what window events and APIs you are using?
20:32:53 [oedipus]
TL: window events is a kind of alchemy
20:33:00 [oedipus]
TL: other APIs pretty self-explanatory
20:33:17 [oedipus]
RS: use MSAA standard windows events for showing/hiding?
20:33:41 [oedipus]
TL: selection: MSAA provides data on current selection, comparison to cached version,
20:33:50 [oedipus]
RS: IA2 does selcetion changing
20:34:04 [oedipus]
RS: selection change events at high level -- how tell if something scrolled off screen?
20:34:27 [oedipus]
TL: those are used in some scenarios, but use API to compute visability
20:34:52 [oedipus]
TL: couple of levels of visability: visible on page; rendered but clipped; not rendered anywhere (on or off screen)
20:35:07 [oedipus]
TL: where heuristics come into play -- if user scrolls, then render
20:35:17 [oedipus]
CP: requestAnimationFrame similar
20:35:34 [oedipus]
CP: what would the API be if one were available?
20:35:49 [oedipus]
CP: API that reduces need for heuristics?
20:36:02 [oedipus]
CP: UA devs need to know what needs to be there
20:36:27 [oedipus]
RS: take content and select it -- aria-selected -- could mark area -- receive notification events under the covers
20:36:31 [oedipus]
RS: positioning info
20:36:44 [oedipus]
CP: what positioning info is needed?
20:37:24 [oedipus]
TL: CANVAS completely contains text, would like to highlight each word inside of canvas in a sequence -- speak word and highlight even if not editable -- positioning critical to displaying highlight
20:37:32 [oedipus]
CP: can you get away with next word?
20:37:52 [oedipus]
TL: if way to enumerate can wrap rectangle around it
20:37:59 [oedipus]
CP: as long as going word-to-word is feasible
20:38:18 [oedipus]
CP: problem with older verions of IE -- but enumerating works
20:38:33 [oedipus]
RS: suggesting notification from AT to enumerate words?
20:38:56 [oedipus]
CP: getNextElement or getNextChild --- from current position go to next word
20:39:07 [oedipus]
RS: how AT call into UA to get info?
20:39:27 [oedipus]
RS: can provide functionality via javascript -- need to get to next word and speak it and highlight it
20:39:40 [oedipus]
CP: when highlighting interacting with DOM or IME
20:39:47 [davidb]
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20:39:57 [oedipus]
TL: when highlighting may leave UA rendering alone before write anything to screen
20:40:13 [oedipus]
RS: canvas author draws pre-rasterized text
20:40:20 [oedipus]
CP: optimized to be pre-rastorized
20:40:28 [oedipus]
RS: how to highlight once happens?
20:41:00 [oedipus]
CP: going to need to determine if caret moves
20:41:50 [oedipus]
TL: know where next word is or next sentence -- in our own way, can do highlighting as goes to screen -- flatten image, so canvas not effective -- can't use canvas to do stuff inside canvas -- have own tech to highlight regardless
20:42:21 [oedipus]
TL: hesistant to move cursor around -- prefer to not move cursor
20:42:29 [oedipus]
CP: FF allows multiple selection ranges
20:42:46 [oedipus]
CP: 2 people may have 2 diff cursors moving -- virtual or secondary cursor use case?
20:43:05 [oedipus]
CP: like concept of bringing that in -- here is virtual cursor, what is next word?
20:43:26 [oedipus]
CP: need L,W,H for same purpose?
20:43:50 [oedipus]
RS: each a11y API on windows has notion of bounding recatangles -- can compute rectangle and then highlight it
20:44:10 [oedipus]
RS: can't expect author to write in position info for all text -- need to have second virtual cursor?
20:44:50 [oedipus]
CP: for best case, need virtual window to do scroll and adjust to new pixel ratio -- make sense if virtual window had cursor, scrolling and own DPI ratio
20:44:55 [oedipus]
RS: how to do for spec?
20:45:09 [Downchuck]
20:45:17 [oedipus]
CP: got to go all the way to AbstractView
20:45:28 [oedipus]
CP: none of this has to do strictly with canvas, right?
20:45:43 [oedipus]
CP: using AbstractView with CANVAS, but isn't "of canvas"
20:45:51 [oedipus]
RS: 1-to-1 mapping in a11y APIs
20:46:17 [oedipus]
RS: 1-to-1 mapping tying into layout engine -- canvas is seperate
20:46:35 [oedipus]
RS: view of canvas is separate from DOM -- not wired together -- can forsee problem with SVG as well
20:47:03 [oedipus]
RS: when deal with MS Office, most AT vendors access office through proprietary DOM --- does AISquared do that?
20:47:14 [Downchuck]
20:47:20 [oedipus]
TL: use Word Object Model to get content -- have to use others to get application support
20:47:30 [oedipus]
TL: toolbars, etc. reflected in MSAA
20:48:18 [oedipus]
TL: if object model too slow, then might do own analysis -- a lot of techs to get same info -- can talk to object model, subscribe to MSSAA event or graphics stack
20:48:27 [oedipus]
TL: use "content model" to get content of document
20:48:36 [oedipus]
RS: how map through layers?
20:48:52 [oedipus]
RS: if select text, how map positioning info -- look at cached drawing calls or OSM?
20:49:00 [Downchuck]
20:49:08 [oedipus]
TL: in Excel had to do translations and calculations based on mapping mode
20:49:33 [oedipus]
TL: convert between object model and pixels -- may have to go through hoops to get to screen
20:49:51 [oedipus]
RS: similar situation with CANVAS -- providing a DOM
20:50:05 [oedipus]
RS: does Office object model provide positioning? device context?
20:50:42 [oedipus]
TL: have had challenges with PDF document -- depending on how query, may get "page relevant" -- each DOM needs a bit of massaging
20:50:54 [oedipus]
RS: what do we need to do in canvas -- how to get info to AT dev
20:51:46 [oedipus]
TL: if there is a virtual canvas, real-life canvas may only be a portion of that -- don't want author to provide positioning -- coordinates on virtual canvas and calculate to render in viewport
20:51:52 [oedipus]
RS: is that consistent mapping?
20:52:02 [oedipus]
CP: larger bitmap area or virtual coordinate system?
20:52:09 [oedipus]
TL: can think of it both ways --
20:52:16 [oedipus]
CP: optimal not to have bitmap
20:52:34 [oedipus]
CP: AbstactView for canvas seems a good fit
20:53:00 [oedipus]
TL: coordinate is x,y in virtual canvas (may be outside of bitmap)
20:53:11 [oedipus]
RS: with canvas sub-tree how to give abstract coordinates?
20:53:36 [oedipus]
TL: top left of any canvas is 0,0; after that, best model is SVG coordination -- what need in CANVAS
20:53:51 [oedipus]
TL: use virtual for topmost level
20:54:03 [oedipus]
RS: dev pushback?
20:54:39 [oedipus]
TL: AbstactView for canvas may be politically tricky but needed; already in SVG, but can't zoom into SVG with magnifier
20:54:56 [oedipus]
TL: seems that this is right solution
20:55:45 [oedipus]
s/TL: coordinate is x,y in virtual canvas (may be outside of bitmap)/CP: coordinate is x,y in virtual canvas (may be outside of bitmap)/
20:56:03 [Downchuck]
20:56:04 [oedipus]
s/TL: top left of any canvas is 0,0; after that, best model is SVG coordination -- what need in CANVAS/CP: top left of any canvas is 0,0; after that, best model is SVG coordination -- what need in CANVAS/
20:56:10 [Downchuck]
somewhat interesting link on word selection
20:56:28 [oedipus]
s/TL: AbstactView for canvas may be politically tricky but needed; already in SVG, but can't zoom into SVG with magnifier/CP: AbstactView for canvas may be politically tricky but needed; already in SVG, but can't zoom into SVG with magnifier/
20:56:56 [oedipus]
RS: would like to get AISquared feedback at meetings - email is ok, but being on call is very helpful
20:57:05 [Downchuck]
20:57:11 [Downchuck]
i just used that one for quick access
20:57:41 [oedipus]
RS: CP please float AbstactView by WG?
20:58:02 [oedipus]
CP: may be best to float before SVG WG before going to HTML WG
20:58:16 [oedipus]
RS: alternate proposals for caret and FocusRing proposals
20:58:21 [oedipus]
RS: FrankO says "drop"
20:58:39 [oedipus]
RS: IME stuff happening at google --people will use canvas for this (editing)
20:58:55 [oedipus]
CP: guy working on IME not dropping it
20:59:16 [oedipus]
RS: concern: don't want to have HTML5 go out and say "we'll fix in next point release"
20:59:32 [oedipus]
CP: good to get methods for canvas in there -- IME in canvas drives people nuts
20:59:52 [oedipus]
CP: APIs for canvas are simple -- bit of tweaking and feedback should work
21:00:11 [oedipus]
CP: treading warily in WHAT WG space
21:00:22 [oedipus]
RS: FocusRing a no-brainer
21:00:46 [oedipus]
TL: can't mange input="text" -- scrolls itself
21:00:52 [oedipus]
RS: thanks to TL and SW for attending
21:01:25 [oedipus]
21:01:25 [Zakim]
21:01:27 [Zakim]
21:01:33 [Zakim]
21:01:34 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(A11Y)3:00PM has ended
21:01:35 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.802.362.aaaa, Rich, +1.802.362.aabb, +1.949.637.aacc, Gregory_Rosmaita, Chuck_Pritchard, Tim_Lalor, Shawn_Warren
21:01:43 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-a11y
21:02:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
21:02:26 [oedipus]
chair: Rich
21:02:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
21:03:01 [oedipus]
present- +1.802.362.aaaa, +1.802.362.aabb, +1.949.637.aacc
21:03:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
21:03:57 [oedipus]
i/TL: used ARIA-selection of "no-width" for caret/TOPIC: What is needed for Screen Magnification Support for CANVAS?/
21:03:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
21:04:51 [oedipus]
meeting: CANVAS Subteam of HTML A11y TF
21:04:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
21:05:26 [oedipus]
meeting+ CANVAS Subteam of HTML A11y TF
21:05:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
21:11:52 [oedipus]
rrsagent, please part
21:11:52 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items