LLD XG -- 06 Jan 2011

<TomB> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/12/16-lld-minutes.html

<antoine> Meeting: LLD XG

<antoine> Chair: Antoine

<TomB> antoine - already set up :-)

<kcoyle> i scribed last time

uh, sure

but i'll, like last time, need help

Admin

Accept minutes of previous meeting?

Accepted

<antoine> RESOLVED: To accept http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/12/16-lld-minutes.html

thanks: )

was looking for that

DRAFT OUTLINE FOR FINAL REPORT

http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/FinalReportOutline

added to the wiki page

three subsections, one for each term

short explanations and examples for similar terms, confusions

markva: can people look over and see if it's clear?

<markva> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/Library_terminology_informally_explained#Vocabularies.2C_Element_sets.2C_Datasets

emma: q about definitions, attributes or elements
... why use attributes rather than property to describe the metadata?

markva: i thought we have agreed on term "element"

<TomB> Mark: "A metadata element set defines classes of entities and attributes (elements) of entities."

markva: property too RDF-centric

emma: questioning the term "attribute"

<kcoyle> i like attribute

markva: using it as synonym - if confusing it can be deleted

<TomB> +1 "attributes" introduces new possibilities for confusion

emma: not relation oriented
... attributes are more like literals, then there are relationships - between two entities

markva: either delete word "attribute" or add attributes and relations

emma: add attributes or relations

<Zakim> TomB, you wanted to suggest that people may think of XML attributes

TomB: see some possibility of confusion with XML attributes, etc.

<Marcia> 'attributes' are used in various library museum metadata sets/schemas

<kcoyle> unfortunately, attribute is what is used in frbr

<TomB> kcoyle, good point

antoine: is everyone happy with this proposal for markva? any objection?

<kcoyle> no objection

__SILENCE__

<TomB> can live with "attribute"...

<GordonD> Keep the quote marks around attribute, etc. to warn of ambiguity between different communities.

<TomB> +1 to Gordon's suggestion

<scribe> ACTION: Mark to add these definitions to the wiki page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/12/16-lld-minutes.html#action01] [DONE]

<antoine> Karen's mail: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Dec/0086.html

"Karen's feedback http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Dec/0086.html"

kcoyle: took various things mentioned in the use cases and put them in a list
... separated them out into proper categories
... gave some interesting examples
... VIAF - is that a dataset? or vocabulary?

emma: tab completion is WAY faster :)

jeff_: i don't think VIAF is a vocabulary -- it's an ontology, but that's not it's purpose
... thing that makes uncomfortable with "data set" is that there's no bulk download
... geonames, dbpedia are available for download - they are datasets

<jodi> to me, a data set is not necessarily available in bulk

<antoine> +1

<emma> +1 jodi

<Asaf> +1 jodi

markva: looking at VIAF example, and I think it's a vocabulary
... documented in confusions part in aforementioned section
... ARGUE WITH ME ON THE INTERNETS
... viaf lists authorities - authorities intended to be used in metadata records as values of the elements in the records
... also has it's own set of metadata elements to describe authorities
... but primarily intended to be used in other datasets

<jeff_> I can believe VIAF is a value vocabulary in part

<kcoyle> mark makes sense to me. i can see it either way, tho'

markva: can see it either way, but would argue towards value vocabulary

antoine: things could be both

<Marcia> Authority files are value vocabularies. VIAF itself is a hub of them and provides more other things. If not consider it as an authority, it is a dataset.

kcoyle: it's really a function of how you use it

<TomB> MikaelN also made this point at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2010Dec/0023.html

TomB: the important thing here is to distinguish functionality

<Zakim> emma, you wanted to discuss the definition of value vocab

emma: back to the definition of value vocbulary, we need to be more explicit
... confusion around value term - literal? URI?
... value could be a code, URI, literal, etc.
... these value vocabularies are used in environments as a closed list

<Marcia> always controlled (value voc.)

emma: always pick from the data set -

(btw, i agree with this)

<scribe> ACTION: Mark and Emmanuelle to clean definition of value vocabulary and use of attribute [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/06-lld-minutes.html#action02]

USE CASES AND CASE STUDIES

http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/UseCases - all use cases are linked here

<scribe> ACTION: Karen and Emma to curate archive cluster for end of December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action02]

emma: we are closed to finished
... if you're happy with wording, we can delete top of page
... just consider that we're done

kcoyle: minor editiing, maybe, but that's it

<scribe> --continues

<scribe> ACTION: Mark, Jodi, and Asaf to curate digital objects cluster for end of December [recorded in [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/06-lld-minutes.html#action04]

http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action04]

markva: 1/3 away from cluster page

<scribe> --continues

antoine: do you think you'll be finished soon?

markva: won't be here next week, so next 2 weeks?

<Asaf> I will be putting some more time into it in the coming two weeks

<TomB> wonders if the Cluster pages should be linked to http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/FinalReportOutline ?

<emma> +1 Tom

<Asaf> TomB: our thoughts lead this way

<Asaf> we were thinking of proceeding with a view to filling the outline.

TomB: we could link cluster pages to final report outline

<scribe> ACTION: TomB to link cluster pages to http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/FinalReportOutline [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/06-lld-minutes.html#action05]

<scribe> ACTION: Gordon and Martin to curate bibliographic data cluster for end of December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action05]

GordonD: still working on it - topic section still the main area to do. 1 or 2 weeks, max.

<scribe> --CONTINUES

<scribe> ACTION: Jeff and Alexander to curate authority data cluster for end of December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action06]

jeff_: still working on it - haven't talked about it, couple of weeks
... been using google docs to edit the content

<scribe> --continues

<jodi> sorry, skype has been buggy for me recently

<scribe> ACTION: Antoine and Michael to curate vocabulary alignment cluster for end of December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action07]

antoine: quite late on this one, Marcia has joined us
... together can make progress, hope for 1 or 2 weeks

<scribe> --continues

NEW CLUSTER(S)?

-> See "Use case notes page" and "use case clustering" threads

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Dec/0064.html

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Dec/0071.html

jodi: talked about having a cluster on collections or collection level description
... final books in a collection, access description, library hours, etc.
... nor sure if it's about collection building?
... social cluster - uldis & jodi curating

<uldis> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Cluster_Social_Uses

jodi: social and emergent information information
... circulation data, lending materials to others

<uldis> some ideas at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Jan/0006.html

jodi: kindle (nook) lending

<uldis> (and the thread starting at that email)

jodi: lend ebooks to one another, how did they find each other? what are the circumstances?
... why "emergent" is relevant: whole realm of machine & computational uses, like relevance ranking
... it's not only ubiquitous, but needs more attention
... use cases are mainly focused on what people are already doing

antoine: would you be happy with continuing discussion on mailing list?

jodi: yes

<scribe> ACTION: Uldis and Jodi to create social uses cluster [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/12/16-lld-minutes.html#action03] [CONTINUES]

<GordonD> I will curate the collections cluster

<jodi> Gordan++

<Asaf> cheers for Gordon!

<GordonD> Co-curators welcome!

<scribe> ACTION: GordonD to curate social and emergent uses cluster [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/06-lld-minutes.html#action10]

is that right?

<GordonD> No, it's the collections cluster

rsinger--

<jodi> There's still one use case that doesn't have a cluster. Has someone adopted this? http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_NLL_Digitized_Map_Archive

<jodi> I think maybe it's archives/heterogeneous material but maybe there's another

<scribe> ACTION: member:GordonD to curate collection cluster [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/06-lld-minutes.html#action11]

<GordonD> I assume I will have that support!

<emma> for me, it's rather digital objects

<uldis> perhaps it is relevant to both?

<emma> I'll look at it again.

<markva> is there an aspect of groups in it? then it belongs in DO

<kcoyle> ok

<markva> ok

<Asaf> yes, I think it's in DO.

<scribe> ACTION: Curators of archives and digital objects clusters to take http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_NLL_Digitized_Map_Archive [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/06-lld-minutes.html#action12]

<scribe> ACTION: Monica and JISC colleagues to introduce and discuss JISC work on next call [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/11/25-lld-minutes.html#action02]

antoine: would we like owen to participate in future call?

<kcoyle> i had a comment/question on clusters/final document

antoine: or are we happy with explanation?

<Asaf> I'd love to hear more on JISC

<Asaf> ...but no one else would?

<TomB> +1

fair enough

<TomB> ok

<Asaf> I guess I can follow up offline, though.

<Asaf> I don't think it makes sense to use up call time just for me.

<GordonD> +1 for existing explanation

<antoine> +1

<kcoyle> happy enough

<emma> I'm happy with http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2010Nov/0119.html

<AnetteS> +1

<Asaf> no, it's fine.

<TomB> fine with me

<scribe> --done

<antoine> ACTION: Monica and JISC colleagues to introduce and discuss JISC work on next call [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/11/25-lld-minutes.html#action02] [DONE]

antoine: perhaps come back to it later rather than close it forever

<Zakim> kcoyle, you wanted to discuss cases of 'missing technology'

TOPICS

http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/TopicsDiscussed

<kcoyle> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2010Dec/0101.html

<jodi> this is a key question: what is stopping people

kcoyle: what are the missing technologies that preventing people from realizing their use cases
... we haven't identified what is needed to move forward?

<emma> we should add a section in use case cluster curation template

<TomB> Karen:

<TomB> [[

<TomB> We don't seem to have identified in our use cases the problems that

<Marcia> do you mean 'types of' technologies?

<TomB> people are facing; what is holding them back; what is missing from the

<TomB> available technology that would make LLD implementable. It seems that

<TomB> this would be an important section in the report since it is from

<TomB> these barriers that projects could be incubated.

<TomB> ]]

<markva> do you have an example of barrier?

kcoyle: what is missing to help you move forward with your use case?

antoine: topics are mostly technology topics, when we come back, we can say how they were handled in various use cases

kcoyle: there are probably examples of vocabs needed that don't exist yet
... there isn't software that helps make relationships in a db environment
... people making datasets available, but no library specific applications
... gap analysis
... we didn't ask people doing the use cases to do the gap analysis

<markva> start separate wiki page for that?

antoine: there was a section of the use case template for that - not many people used it

emma: there is a section for problems and limitations - not always relevant
... out of all the use cases, one of them might have a limitation that's general to many

<jodi> I think this is a good idea: looking at all the problems + limitations out of what's already in the use cases

<GordonD> +1 Emma's suggestion to curate problems/limitations from use cases and list discussions

emma: education/training, architecture
... we do have some material in the use cases

kcoyle: since i'm the one bothered, i should go through and make a list

<markva> +1 !

antoine: could you do it for your own cluster?

kcoyle: let me see if our cluster reveals problems

<GordonD> +1

<scribe> ACTION: kcoyle to see if cluster reveals problems or limitations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/06-lld-minutes.html#action15]

<scribe> ACTION: GordonD and Antoine to study use cases that relate to vocabulary merging use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action01]

<GordonD> +1

<scribe> --DROPPED

<scribe> ACTION: Alex, Jeff, Martin, MichaelP elaborate on general purpose IT architecture for dealing with linked data with caching feature [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action04]

<Asaf> I think at least a link to some sketch on this should make it into the report.

<scribe> --CONTINUES

<scribe> ACTION: Jeff to write one or two paragraphs on VIAF design discussions [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/18-lld-minutes.html#action06] [CONTINUES]

antoine: any other business?

__SILENCE__

<Asaf> Cheers.

<Marcia> bye

<AnetteS> bye!

<Marcia> thanks, Ray

<emma> rrsaegnt, please draft minutes

- DRAFT -

LLD XG

06 Jan 2011

Attendees

Contents

Admin

DRAFT OUTLINE FOR FINAL REPORT

USE CASES AND CASE STUDIES

NEW CLUSTER(S)?

TOPICS

Summary of Action Items

Scribe.perl diagnostic output