14:47:29 RRSAgent has joined #lld 14:47:29 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/06-lld-irc 14:47:33 rrsagent, bookmark 14:47:33 See http://www.w3.org/2011/01/06-lld-irc#T14-47-33 14:47:44 zakim, this will be lld 14:47:44 ok, TomB; I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 13 minutes 14:47:52 Meeting: LLD XG 14:47:56 Chair: Antoine 14:49:13 Regrets: WilliamW, EdSu, MichaelP 14:49:36 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Jan/0005.html 14:50:06 Previous: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/12/16-lld-minutes.html 14:51:45 antoine has joined #lld 14:53:22 rrsagent, please draft minutes 14:53:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/06-lld-minutes.html antoine 14:53:29 kcoyle has joined #lld 14:54:33 rrsagent, bookmark 14:54:33 See http://www.w3.org/2011/01/06-lld-irc#T14-54-33 14:54:52 zakim, this will be lld 14:54:52 ok, antoine; I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes 14:55:02 Meeting: LLD XG 14:55:10 Chair: Antoine 14:55:36 antoine - already set up :-) 14:56:28 rrsagent, please make record public 14:56:30 rrsagent, please make record public 14:56:58 INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has now started 14:57:05 +[IPcaller] 14:57:33 zakim, IPcaller is me 14:57:33 +antoine; got it 14:57:41 +??P13 14:57:44 + +1.614.764.aaaa 14:58:07 zakim, aaaa is jeff_ 14:58:07 +jeff_; got it 14:58:15 zakim, ??P13 is TomB 14:58:15 +TomB; got it 14:58:24 GordonD has joined #lld 14:58:34 AnetteS has joined #lld 14:58:38 zakim, mute me 14:58:38 jeff_ should now be muted 14:59:03 markva has joined #lld 14:59:07 +emma 14:59:26 +[IPcaller] 14:59:33 zakim, IPcaller 14:59:33 I don't understand 'IPcaller', antoine 14:59:57 AlexanderH has joined #lld 15:00:02 +[IPcaller.a] 15:00:03 zakim, IPcaller is Uldis 15:00:03 +Uldis; got it 15:00:15 zakim, IPcaller.a is GordonD 15:00:15 +GordonD; got it 15:00:25 kosuke has joined #lld 15:00:30 +markva 15:00:41 +[IPcaller] 15:00:43 uldis has joined #lld 15:00:51 zakim, IPcaller isAlexanderH 15:00:51 I don't understand 'IPcaller isAlexanderH', antoine 15:00:52 zakim, mute me 15:00:52 markva should now be muted 15:00:59 zakim, IPcaller is AlexanderH 15:01:00 +AlexanderH; got it 15:01:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/06-lld-minutes.html TomB 15:01:15 jodi has joined #LLD 15:01:16 zakim, who is here? 15:01:16 On the phone I see antoine, TomB, jeff_ (muted), emma, Uldis, GordonD, markva (muted), AlexanderH 15:01:19 On IRC I see jodi, uldis, kosuke, AlexanderH, markva, AnetteS, GordonD, kcoyle, antoine, RRSAgent, Zakim, TomB, Asaf, emma, jeff_, danbri, digikim, edsu 15:01:22 +rsinger 15:01:32 fsasaki has joined #lld 15:01:46 rsinger has joined #lld 15:01:53 rayd has joined #lld 15:01:59 + +1.763.463.aabb 15:02:05 + +49.221.400.7.aacc 15:02:13 zakim, aabb is Jodi 15:02:14 zakim, aacc is AnetteS 15:02:28 zakim, please mute me 15:02:31 +Jodi; got it 15:02:32 Marcia has joined #lld 15:02:35 +AnetteS; got it 15:02:41 +??P26 15:02:47 AnetteS should now be muted 15:02:56 zakim, ??P26 is kcoyle 15:03:05 +??P41 15:03:07 Zakim, please mute me 15:03:13 zakim, ??P41 is fsasaki 15:03:14 +kcoyle; got it 15:03:31 GordonD should now be muted 15:03:33 jneubert has joined #lld 15:03:37 +fsasaki; got it 15:03:39 +marcia 15:03:49 +[LC] 15:03:55 zakim, LC is rayd 15:03:55 +rayd; got it 15:04:05 zakim, who is here? 15:04:05 On the phone I see antoine, TomB, jeff_ (muted), emma, Uldis, GordonD (muted), markva (muted), AlexanderH, rsinger, Jodi, AnetteS (muted), kcoyle, fsasaki (muted), marcia, rayd 15:04:09 On IRC I see jneubert, Marcia, rayd, rsinger, fsasaki, jodi, uldis, kosuke, AlexanderH, markva, AnetteS, GordonD, kcoyle, antoine, RRSAgent, Zakim, TomB, Asaf, emma, jeff_, danbri, 15:04:11 ... digikim, edsu 15:04:30 +Phil 15:04:44 Zakim, please mute me 15:04:44 marcia should now be muted 15:04:56 zakim, pick a victim 15:04:56 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose kcoyle 15:05:04 i scribed last time 15:05:32 uh, sure 15:05:39 but i'll, like last time, need help 15:06:14 kefo has joined #lld 15:06:19 +[LC] 15:06:24 zakim, LC is me 15:06:24 +kefo; got it 15:06:26 +??P51 15:06:37 Zakim, ??P51 is me 15:06:37 +Asaf; got it 15:06:43 zakim, mute me 15:06:43 kefo should now be muted 15:06:53 TOPIC: Admin 15:07:09 Accept minutes of previous meeting? 15:07:14 Accepted 15:07:29 RESOLVED: To accept http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/12/16-lld-minutes.html 15:07:34 thanks :) 15:07:39 was looking for that 15:08:06 TOPIC: DRAFT OUTLINE FOR FINAL REPORT 15:08:17 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/FinalReportOutline 15:08:35 zakim, unmute me 15:08:35 markva should no longer be muted 15:08:42 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Jan/0014.html 15:09:19 added to the wiki page 15:09:26 three subsections, one for each term 15:09:38 short explanations and examples for similar terms, confusions 15:09:52 :) 15:10:04 q+ about attributes vs properties 15:10:05 markva: can people look over and see if it's clear? 15:10:15 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/Library_terminology_informally_explained#Vocabularies.2C_Element_sets.2C_Datasets 15:10:16 zakim, ack emma 15:10:16 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:10:35 emma: q about definitions, attributes or elements 15:11:03 emma: why use attributes rather than property to describe the metadata? 15:11:14 markva: i thought we have agreed on term "element" 15:11:16 Mark: "A metadata element set defines classes of entities and attributes (elements) of entities." 15:11:28 markva: property too RDF-centric 15:11:39 emma: questioning the term "attribute" 15:11:44 i like attribute 15:11:53 markva: using it as synonym - if confusing it can be deleted 15:11:57 +1 "attributes" introduces new possibilities for confusion 15:12:02 emma: not relation oriented 15:12:21 emma: attributes are more like literals, then there are relationships - between two entities 15:12:51 markva: either delete word "attribute" or add attributes and relations 15:12:58 q+ to suggest that people may think of XML attributes 15:13:02 emma: add attributes or relations 15:13:09 zakim, ack TomB 15:13:09 TomB, you wanted to suggest that people may think of XML attributes 15:13:10 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:13:21 TomB: see some possibility of confusion with XML attributes, etc. 15:13:28 'attributes' are used in various library museum metadata sets/schemas 15:13:37 unfortunately, attribute is what is used in frbr 15:13:49 kcoyle, good point 15:13:58 antoine: is everyone happy with this proposal for markva? any objection? 15:13:59 no objection 15:14:00 +??P1 15:14:03 __SILENCE__ 15:14:05 can live with "attribute"... 15:14:17 Keep the quote marks around attribute, etc. to warn of ambiguity between different communities. 15:14:35 +1 to Gordon's suggestion 15:14:54 ACTION: Mark to add these definitions to the wiki page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/12/16-lld-minutes.html#action01] 15:14:55 --done 15:15:46 zakim, mute me 15:15:46 markva should now be muted 15:15:47 Karen's mail: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Dec/0086.html 15:15:59 "Karen's feedback http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Dec/0086.html" 15:16:18 kcoyle: took various things mentioned in the use cases and put them in a list 15:16:28 kcoyle: separated them out into proper categories 15:16:37 kcoyle: gave some interesting examples 15:16:56 kcoyle: VIAF - is that a dataset? or vocabulary? 15:17:00 q+ 15:17:20 emma: tab completion is WAY faster :) 15:17:33 q+ 15:17:49 zakim, unmute me 15:17:49 markva should no longer be muted 15:17:53 zakim, ack jeff_ 15:17:53 unmuting jeff_ 15:17:54 I see markva on the speaker queue 15:18:21 jeff_: i don't think VIAF is a vocabulary -- it's an ontology, but that's not it's purpose 15:18:40 ... thing that makes uncomfortable with "data set" is that there's no bulk download 15:18:58 ... geonames, dbpedia are available for download - they are datasets 15:19:01 to me, a data set is not necessarily available in bulk 15:19:08 +1 15:19:10 +1 jodi 15:19:12 q+ 15:19:16 +1 jodi 15:19:16 zakim, ack markva 15:19:16 I see TomB on the speaker queue 15:19:25 zakim, mute me 15:19:25 jeff_ should now be muted 15:19:33 markva: looking at VIAF example, and I think it's a vocabulary 15:19:50 ... documented in confusions part in aforementioned section 15:19:58 ... ARGUE WITH ME ON THE INTERNETS 15:20:29 ... viaf lists authorities - authorities intended to be used in metadata records as values of the elements in the records 15:20:41 ... also has it's own set of metadata elements to describe authorities 15:20:54 ... but primarily intended to be used in other datasets 15:21:05 I can believe VIAF is a value vocabulary in part 15:21:06 mark makes sense to me. i can see it either way, tho' 15:21:33 ... can see it either way, but would argue towards value vocabulary 15:21:44 antoine: things could be both 15:21:51 Authority files are value vocabularies. VIAF itself is a hub of them and provides more other things. If not consider it as an authority, it is a dataset. 15:22:06 kcoyle: it's really a function of how you use it 15:22:10 MikaelN also made this point at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2010Dec/0023.html 15:22:22 zakim, ack TomB 15:22:22 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:23:09 TomB: the important thing here is to distinguish functionality 15:23:12 q+ to discuss the definition of value vocab 15:23:28 zakim, ack emma 15:23:28 emma, you wanted to discuss the definition of value vocab 15:23:29 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:23:39 emma: back to the definition of value vocbulary, we need to be more explicity 15:23:43 s/y// 15:24:01 ... confusion around value term - literal? URI? 15:24:12 ... value could be a code, URI, literal, etc. 15:24:31 ... these value vocabularies are used in environments as a closed list 15:25:04 always controlled (value voc.) 15:25:05 ... always pick from the data set - 15:25:11 (btw, i agree with this) 15:25:56 ACTION: Add definition of value vocabulary 15:26:37 s/Add definition of value vocabulary/Mark and Emmanuelle to clean definition of value vocabulary and use of attribute 15:27:01 TOPIC: USE CASES AND CASE STUDIES 15:27:06 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/UseCases - all use cases are linked here 15:28:00 ACTION: Karen and Emma to curate archive cluster for end of December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action02] 15:28:06 emma: we are closed to finished 15:28:18 ... if you're happy with wording, we can delete top of page 15:28:25 ... just consider that we're done 15:28:37 kcoyle: minor editiing, maybe, but that's it 15:28:45 --continues 15:29:03 ACTION: Mark, Jodi, and Asaf to curate digital objects cluster for end of December [recorded in 15:29:03 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action04] 15:29:31 markva: 1/3 away from cluster page 15:29:37 -Phil 15:29:51 --continues 15:29:52 + +49.4.aadd 15:30:03 antoine: do you think you'll be finished soon? 15:30:14 markva: won't be here next week, so next 2 weeks? 15:30:16 I will be putting some more time into it in the coming two weeks 15:30:25 -Felix 15:30:36 wonders if the Cluster pages should be linked to http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/FinalReportOutline ? 15:30:48 +1 Tom 15:30:49 TomB: our thoughts lead this way 15:31:06 zakim, 49.4.aadd is me 15:31:06 sorry, jneubert, I do not recognize a party named '49.4.aadd' 15:31:06 we were thinking of proceeding with a view to filling the outline. 15:31:15 TomB: we could link cluster pages to final report outline 15:31:18 zakim, aadd is me 15:31:18 +jneubert; got it 15:31:23 zakim, mute me 15:31:23 markva should now be muted 15:31:48 ACTION: TomB to link cluster pages to http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/FinalReportOutline 15:32:01 ACTION: Gordon and Martin to curate bibliographic data cluster for end of December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action05] 15:32:04 -fsasaki 15:32:38 GordonD: still working on it - topic section still the main area to do. 1 or 2 weeks, max. 15:32:45 --CONTINUES 15:32:53 zakim, unmute me 15:32:53 jeff_ should no longer be muted 15:32:56 ACTION: Jeff and Alexander to curate authority data cluster for end of December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action06] 15:33:16 jeff_: still working on it - haven't talked about it, couple of weeks 15:33:29 -Jodi 15:33:35 jeff_: been using google docs to edit the content 15:33:51 zakim, mute me 15:33:51 jeff_ should now be muted 15:33:54 --continues 15:33:54 sorry, skype has been buggy for me recently 15:33:57 ACTION: Antoine and Michael to curate vocabulary alignment cluster for end of December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action07] 15:34:07 antoine: quite late on this one, Marcia has joined us 15:34:22 ... together can make progress, hope for 1 or 2 weeks 15:34:22 +Jodi 15:34:39 --continues 15:35:10 TOPIC: NEW CLUSTER(S)? 15:35:16 -> See "Use case notes page" and "use case clustering" threads 15:35:16 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Dec/0064.html 15:35:16 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Dec/0071.html 15:36:04 jodi: talked about having a cluster on collections or collection level description 15:36:29 ... final books in a collection, access description, library hours, etc. 15:36:50 ... nor sure if it's about collection building? 15:37:10 ... social cluster - uldis & jodi curating 15:37:14 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Cluster_Social_Uses 15:37:21 ... social and emergent information information 15:37:52 ... circulation data, lending materials to others 15:37:53 some ideas at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Jan/0006.html 15:37:59 ... kindle (nook) lending 15:38:16 (and the thread starting at that email) 15:38:20 ... lend ebooks to one another, how did they find each other? what are the circumstances? 15:38:44 ... why "emergent" is relevant: whole realm of machine & computational uses, like relevance ranking 15:39:26 ... it's not only ubiquitous, but needs more attention 15:39:56 ... use cases are mainly focused on what people are already doing 15:40:30 antoine: would you be happy with continuing discussion on mailing list? 15:40:32 jodi: yes 15:40:55 ACTION: Uldis and Jodi to create social uses cluster [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/12/16-lld-minutes.html#action03] 15:41:00 --continues 15:41:13 q+ to discuss cases of 'missing technology' 15:41:23 I will curate the collections cluster 15:41:32 Gordan++ 15:41:46 cheers for Gordon! 15:41:56 Co-curators welcome! 15:42:13 ACTION: GordonD to curate social and emergent uses cluster 15:42:16 is that right? 15:42:24 No, it's the collections cluster 15:42:25 rsinger-- 15:42:28 There's still one use case that doesn't have a cluster. Has someone adopted this? http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_NLL_Digitized_Map_Archive 15:42:38 monica has joined #lld 15:42:40 I think maybe it's archives/heterogeneous material but maybe there's another 15:42:42 ACTION: member:GordonD to curate collection cluster 15:43:23 I assume I will have that support! 15:43:41 for me, it's rather digital objects 15:44:05 perhaps it is relevant to both? 15:44:22 I'll look at it again. 15:44:27 is there an aspect of groups in it? then it belongs in DO 15:44:45 ok 15:44:48 ok 15:45:11 yes, I think it's in DO. 15:45:17 ACTION: Curators of archives and digital archives cluster to take http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_NLL_Digitized_Map_Archive 15:45:38 s/cluster/clusters/ 15:45:45 -jneubert 15:45:52 ACTION: Monica and JISC colleagues to introduce and discuss JISC work on next call [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/11/25-lld-minutes.html#action02] 15:45:56 s/digital archives/digital objects/ 15:46:19 antoine: would we like owen to participate in future call? 15:46:20 i had a comment/question on clusters/final document 15:46:29 ... or are we happy with explanation? 15:46:31 q? 15:46:36 I'd love to hear more on JISC 15:47:05 ...but no one else would? 15:47:13 +1 15:47:16 +1 15:47:34 fair enough 15:47:37 ok 15:47:37 I guess I can follow up offline, though. 15:47:42 + +44.194.346.aaee 15:47:50 I don't think it makes sense to use up call time just for me. 15:48:08 +jneubert 15:48:25 zakim, mute me 15:48:25 jneubert should now be muted 15:48:41 +1 for existing explanation 15:48:42 +1 15:48:42 happy enough 15:48:45 I'm happy with http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2010Nov/0119.html 15:48:55 +1 15:49:19 no 15:49:22 no, it's fine. 15:49:25 fine with me 15:49:45 --done 15:49:53 ACTION: Monica and JISC colleagues to introduce and discuss JISC work on next call [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/11/25-lld-minutes.html#action02] 15:49:55 --DONE 15:51:04 q+ 15:51:15 antoine: perhaps come back to it later rather than close it forever 15:51:53 zakim, ack TomB 15:51:53 I see kcoyle on the speaker queue 15:52:23 zakim, ack kcoyle 15:52:23 kcoyle, you wanted to discuss cases of 'missing technology' 15:52:25 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:52:40 TOPIC: TOPICS 15:52:41 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/TopicsDiscussed 15:52:58 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2010Dec/0101.html 15:53:40 this is a key question: what is stopping people 15:53:46 kcoyle: what are the missing technologies that preventing people from realizing their use cases 15:53:58 ... we haven't identified what is needed to move forward? 15:54:24 we should add a section in use case cluster curation template 15:54:35 Karen: 15:54:36 [[ 15:54:38 We don't seem to have identified in our use cases the problems that 15:54:39 do you mean 'types of' technologies? 15:54:39 people are facing; what is holding them back; what is missing from the 15:54:41 available technology that would make LLD implementable. It seems that 15:54:42 this would be an important section in the report since it is from 15:54:44 these barriers that projects could be incubated. 15:54:46 ]] 15:54:50 do you have an example of barrier? 15:55:03 q+ 15:55:05 kcoyle: what is missing to help you move forward with your use case? 15:55:39 antoine: topics are mostly technology topics, when we come back, we can say how they were handled in various use cases 15:56:00 kcoyle: there are probably examples of vocabs needed that don't exist yet 15:56:19 ... there isn't software that helps make relationships in a db environment 15:56:39 ... people making datasets available, but no library specific applications 15:56:48 ... gap analysis 15:57:01 ... we didn't ask people doing the use cases to do the gap analysis 15:57:07 start separate wiki page for that? 15:57:28 antoine: there was a section of the use case template for that - not many people used it 15:57:38 zakim, ack zakim 15:57:38 I see emma on the speaker queue 15:57:40 emma: there is a section for problems and limitations - not always relevant 15:57:44 zakim, ack emma 15:57:44 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:58:10 ... out of all the use cases, one of them might have a limitation that's general to many 15:58:31 I think this is a good idea: looking at all the problems + limitations out of what's already in the use cases 15:58:46 +1 Emma's suggestion to curate problems/limitations from use cases and list discussions 15:58:46 ... education/training, architecture 15:58:58 ... we do have some material in the use cases 15:59:16 kcoyle: since i'm the one bothered, i should go through and make a list 15:59:26 +1 ! 15:59:28 antoine: could you do it for your own cluster? 15:59:47 kcoyle: let me see if our cluster reveals problems 15:59:54 +1 16:00:32 ACTION: kcoyle to see if cluster reveals problems or limitations 16:01:11 ACTION: GordonD and Antoine to study use cases that relate to vocabulary merging use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action01] 16:01:41 +1 16:01:43 --DROPPED 16:02:02 ACTION: Alex, Jeff, Martin, MichaelP elaborate on general purpose IT architecture for dealing with linked data with caching feature [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action04] 16:02:05 zakim, unmute me 16:02:06 jeff_ should no longer be muted 16:02:36 I think at least a link to some sketch on this should make it into the report. 16:02:54