IRC log of html-a11y on 2011-01-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:59:09 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
15:59:09 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/06-html-a11y-irc
15:59:11 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:59:11 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #html-a11y
15:59:13 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
15:59:13 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
15:59:14 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:59:14 [trackbot]
Date: 06 January 2011
15:59:26 [MikeSmith]
chair: Mike
15:59:56 [janina]
janina has joined #html-a11y
16:00:07 [oedipus]
oedipus has joined #html-a11y
16:00:21 [janina]
zakim, call janina
16:00:21 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
16:00:58 [oedipus]
zakim, who is here?
16:01:00 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has not yet started, oedipus
16:01:04 [Zakim]
On IRC I see oedipus, janina, Zakim, RRSAgent, eric, JF, Judy, MichaelC, davidb, MikeSmith, JAllan, sideshow, trackbot
16:01:17 [Leonie_Watson]
Leonie_Watson has joined #html-a11y
16:01:47 [MikeSmith]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jan/0038.html
16:01:51 [MichaelC]
zakim, this is 2119
16:01:51 [Zakim]
ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM
16:02:54 [MikeSmith]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
16:04:14 [Zakim]
+Léonie_Watson
16:04:42 [janina]
zakim, who's on the phone?
16:04:42 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Foliot, Eric_Carlson, Gregory_Rosmaita, Mike, Janina, Léonie_Watson
16:05:02 [MikeSmith]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jan/0027.html
16:05:18 [Zakim]
+Michael_Cooper
16:05:41 [oedipus]
regrets+ Kenny_Johar,Denis_Boudreau,Silvia_Pfieffer,Laura_Carlson,Joshue_O'Connor
16:05:46 [MikeSmith]
-> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/q1-2011_ftf/results f2f survey current results
16:07:11 [Zakim]
-Mike
16:08:22 [Zakim]
+Mike
16:08:23 [Leonie_Watson]
scribe: Leonie_Watson
16:08:40 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, drop Mike
16:08:40 [Zakim]
Mike is being disconnected
16:08:41 [Zakim]
-Mike
16:08:54 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, drop Mike
16:08:54 [Zakim]
sorry, MikeSmith, I do not see a party named 'Mike'
16:08:59 [Zakim]
+Mike
16:09:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/06-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:09:34 [Zakim]
+Cynthia_Shelly
16:09:51 [Leonie_Watson]
Zakim, next item
16:09:51 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
16:10:02 [Marco_Ranon]
Marco_Ranon has joined #html-a11y
16:10:09 [MikeSmith]
Topic: f2f planning
16:10:35 [richardschwerdtfe]
richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
16:10:52 [MikeSmith]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/q1-2011_ftf/results
16:11:24 [MikeSmith]
q?
16:11:37 [oedipus]
GJR will not be at CSUN but will attend virtually
16:12:02 [Zakim]
+Rich
16:13:39 [Zakim]
+??P20
16:13:56 [Marco_Ranon]
zackim, ??P20 is me
16:14:08 [Marco_Ranon]
zackim, +??P20 is me
16:14:09 [MikeSmith]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/q1-2011_ftf/
16:14:17 [oedipus]
zakim, ??P20 is Marco_Ranon
16:14:17 [Zakim]
+Marco_Ranon; got it
16:14:30 [Marco_Ranon]
zakim, mute me
16:14:31 [Zakim]
Marco_Ranon should now be muted
16:15:12 [MikeSmith]
Topic: Next week's meeting
16:16:14 [oedipus]
next week we will convene at 1500h UTC, one hour earlier than usual
16:16:51 [oedipus]
s/next week/next week on 2011-01-13/
16:17:24 [MikeSmith]
Topic: Subteam reports
16:17:26 [oedipus]
JF: please try and get agenda out early so can plan around meeting
16:17:52 [MikeSmith]
-> http://www.w3.org/2011/01/05-html-a11y-minutes.html Media subteam minutes
16:19:14 [Zakim]
-Mike
16:19:16 [oedipus]
JF: reviewed bugs marked media -- good progress -- some can close, some are more specifically addressed later in cycle (old bugs reformulated as new bugs with more specifity) -- didn't clear entire list, but did about 70 to 80 percent processed
16:19:39 [MikeSmith_]
MikeSmith_ has joined #html-a11y
16:20:09 [Zakim]
+Mike
16:20:17 [oedipus]
JS: identifying gaps in reqs media subgroup generated -- a bit more tweaking to document as people return from holiday break
16:21:06 [oedipus]
MS: number of deadlines coming up -- is media subgroup on track or need to request more time on any of these issues?
16:21:21 [oedipus]
JF: pretty much on track -- going to be tight -- can give better answer next week
16:22:00 [oedipus]
JS: think pretty much on track -- somethings being deferred -- forming a group to define WebSRT, working with new W3C audio group -- mixed bag as to how addressing issues, but are processing issues
16:22:03 [oedipus]
JF:
16:22:10 [oedipus]
JF: 2 or 3 outstanding issues
16:22:27 [oedipus]
JF: 1. multimedia support in content (sign-language, multi-language tracks)
16:22:34 [oedipus]
JF: 2. @poster "discussion"
16:23:06 [oedipus]
JF: most everything else taken as far as can -- timestamp issue deferral -- identified gaps, but not our place to fill gaps
16:23:47 [oedipus]
MS: for prioritizing, biggest issue that need to work on immediately is "track" concept
16:24:27 [oedipus]
MS: don't know current state of things with implementors, but think leaning towards trying to get multimedia support in sooner, rather than later, so need to push on this -- means significant changes to spec that need to be added before CR
16:24:41 [oedipus]
MS: has some potential to block progress to LC
16:24:47 [oedipus]
JF: high on list of priorities
16:24:54 [oedipus]
JF: not everyone on call yesterday
16:25:11 [oedipus]
JF: will be turning time and attention to issues i identified
16:25:24 [oedipus]
MS: good -- other sub team reports -- canvas?
16:26:23 [oedipus]
RS: over break, had a lot of RTE issues (spelling and grammar checking in canvas editor) -- lot of pushback from WHATWG people saying don't want to expose that info from javascript API because of security reasons
16:26:48 [oedipus]
RS: ARIA 1.0 has markup to indicate "invalid" -- never thought about applying them to whole ranges of text in doc; can do also for selection
16:27:27 [oedipus]
RS: instead of worrying about what allow and don't allow, need to tweak ARIA 1.1 to expose info in markup -- better fit for clooud computing -- user shouldn't be limited in RTE experience by limitations of HTML5
16:27:43 [oedipus]
RS: waiting to hear back from FrankO (MS) review of caret and focusRing
16:27:59 [MikeSmith]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Dec/thread.html canvas subteam minutes from 2010-12-20
16:28:14 [oedipus]
RS: FrankO hasn't been able to make meetings for over a month, and i can't get in touch with him -- what can be allowed inside canvas subtree
16:28:41 [MikeSmith]
-> http://www.w3.org/2010/12/20-html-a11y-minutes.html canvas subteam minutes from 2010-12-20
16:28:47 [oedipus]
RS: sticky point -- spoke with AISquared (screen mag) -- discussion on public-canvas-api@w3.org
16:28:58 [oedipus]
RS: AISquared makes ZoomText
16:29:05 [oedipus]
MS: getting them on board very important
16:29:15 [oedipus]
RS: working on that -- made a lot of progress despite lack of people
16:29:35 [oedipus]
http://lists.w3.org/archives/public/public-canvas-api
16:29:51 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Canvas
16:29:55 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Canvas_Minutes
16:30:17 [oedipus]
RS: did we discuss modifications to aria implementation section with ARIA going to CR?
16:30:21 [oedipus]
MC: not in this context
16:30:42 [oedipus]
MC: ARIA going to CR -- addressing concerns about processing -- need to be addressed in HTML, not ARIA, but still in flux
16:30:48 [MikeSmith]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2010OctDec/thread.html canvas-api discussions from 2010-12
16:31:06 [oedipus]
RS: Cyns and i need to work on text for spec
16:31:14 [oedipus]
MS: any heads up for HTML WG chairs?
16:31:34 [oedipus]
RS: not at moment -- wait until have discussion on friday
16:31:47 [oedipus]
MC: correct
16:32:17 [oedipus]
MS: bug triage update?
16:33:01 [oedipus]
MC: summary: holidays affected subteam as other groups; been trying to stay on-top-of new bugs and bugs that keep coming to attentino as potentially needing TF attention -- alot bassed on LauraC's work
16:33:26 [oedipus]
MC: trying to keep stuff off TF plate -- agree with issue, but not entire TF needs to address; recommend bug filer follow up on their own
16:33:43 [oedipus]
MC: marked bugs as TF priorities if related to work already being conducted in TF
16:33:57 [oedipus]
MC: add keywords and assign to leader of subteams
16:34:14 [JF]
+q
16:34:26 [oedipus]
MC: not much on "NEEDSINFO" -- assigning out to filer -- aware of february deadline on bug filing that affects subteam
16:34:34 [oedipus]
q?
16:34:35 [Marco_Ranon]
zakim, unmute me
16:34:35 [Zakim]
Marco_Ranon should no longer be muted
16:35:12 [Marco_Ranon]
zakim, mute me
16:35:12 [Zakim]
Marco_Ranon should now be muted
16:35:13 [oedipus]
MR: next meeting is tuesday, should have full compliment of people back
16:35:29 [MikeSmith]
zakim, ack j
16:35:29 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
16:35:37 [oedipus]
JF: observed on media call yesterday that alot of bugs marked "NEEDSINFO" which is inaccurate -- if "NEEDSINFO" not resolved...
16:35:58 [oedipus]
MC: that is artifact of how bugzilla system works -- "NEEDSINFO" in resolved state with qualifier
16:36:24 [oedipus]
MC: if marked as "VERIFIED" or "CLOSED" still technically open -- moved off editor's plate back to WG
16:36:51 [oedipus]
MC: when hixie bounces back bug, should assign to original filer -- parhaps not getting reassigned
16:37:10 [oedipus]
MC: triage ST has reassigned a lot of "CLOSED" and "VERIFIED"
16:37:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/06-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:37:39 [oedipus]
q+
16:37:54 [oedipus]
MS: updated W3C bugzilla per request -- still long way to go
16:37:56 [oedipus]
q?
16:38:00 [oedipus]
ack me
16:39:55 [oedipus]
HTML5 Bug 10525 - Please try to improve Bugzilla's accessibility/usability problems before Last Call http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10525
16:40:22 [oedipus]
GJR: please add issues with bugzilla to bug 10525 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10525 master bug for bugzilla related bugs
16:40:41 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Longdesc/Verbose Descriptor
16:40:50 [MikeSmith]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/30
16:41:07 [oedipus]
MS: chairs chose not to include in spec as obsolete or deprecated (obsolete but conforming")
16:41:32 [oedipus]
MS: when chairs made decision on behalf of WG on this, decision went ahead with formal objection from Leif
16:41:49 [oedipus]
MS: don't have any particular time-pressure to follow up with new info
16:42:15 [oedipus]
MS: have until doc goes to director for some decision for doc transition; there is time to have further discussion on this
16:42:20 [oedipus]
q+
16:42:25 [MikeSmith]
q?
16:43:11 [oedipus]
JS: PFWG examined this yesterday -- spent time on wiki page GJR and LC put together -- info great start -- compelling use cases and requirements -- need additional implementation details
16:43:12 [JF]
+q
16:43:36 [oedipus]
GJR: i filed a bug with just the requirements
16:44:05 [oedipus]
JS: Laura tracking usage; JF has done a lot of work on implementation and correspondence with devs
16:44:26 [MikeSmith]
http://www.pearson.com/
16:44:33 [oedipus]
JS: is being used by content creators in useful way
16:44:42 [oedipus]
JS: table for support in UA and AU
16:44:56 [oedipus]
GJR: has action item from PFWG to add implementation on longdesc
16:45:21 [oedipus]
JS: plugin for mozilla for longdesc; need to know about IE and Webkit; Opera supports but device-dependently
16:45:44 [oedipus]
JS: need to document IE, FF, Webkit and support in ATs in second column
16:45:53 [oedipus]
q?
16:45:59 [oedipus]
ack oe
16:45:59 [JF]
Opera supports the exposure of longdesc content in the right-click context menu today
16:47:15 [oedipus]
JS: cyns trying to find out for IE -- need someone to follow up on Webkit
16:47:28 [oedipus]
MS: EricC or JamesC can help
16:47:31 [oedipus]
EC: i can help
16:47:50 [oedipus]
EC: JamesC would know off top of his head
16:48:17 [oedipus]
JS: will send email to James Craig asking for details on webkit -- if no reply, ping EricC and he will track down info
16:48:18 [oedipus]
q?
16:48:21 [oedipus]
ack JF
16:48:55 [JF]
+q
16:48:57 [oedipus]
MS: have a bit of time due to process to address this -- shouldn't rush -- should be well-formed and terse when submmitted
16:49:47 [oedipus]
GJR: i filed a bug on the requirements alone http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10853
16:50:30 [oedipus]
JF: no response from chairs as to where they perceive shortcomings -- given many implementation details, but get no traction in HTML WG -- how define "rapid growth"? being supported by CMS (Drupal 7) Wordpress, etc
16:51:06 [oedipus]
JF: specifically gave response -- taking it at face value and asking for clarification which has not been forthcoming
16:51:27 [oedipus]
JS: one argument was "no one is using this" or "used in small way, mostly incorrectly"
16:51:49 [oedipus]
GJR: this was something specifically added to HTML4 for accessibility
16:52:04 [oedipus]
JF: google stats used against us, but that misses the point
16:53:20 [oedipus]
JS: probably never going to be high -- quantatitive measure never the intent nor is it appropriate measure of success; there is an identifiable need, support from content providers, UAs, etc. -- that is what needs to be considered, not overall market penetration --
16:54:01 [oedipus]
GJR filed a bug on the requirements alone http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10853
16:54:24 [oedipus]
JS: verbose descriptor is a need that has not been filled by HTML5
16:55:19 [JF]
Revisiting this Issue
16:55:21 [JF]
This issue can be reopened if new information come up. Examples of possible relevant new information include:
16:55:22 [JF]
* use cases that specifically require longdesc,
16:55:24 [JF]
* evidence that correct usage is growing rapidly and that that growth is expected to continue, or
16:55:25 [JF]
* widespread interoperable implementation.
16:55:26 [oedipus]
JS: supporting existing components: isn't important to build new mechanism in HTML5 context because need to support existing deployements out there no matter what -- removing entirely is wrong approach
16:55:48 [oedipus]
JS: people need to know what to use TODAY, as well as what is coming down the pike
16:55:50 [oedipus]
qa/
16:55:52 [oedipus]
q?
16:56:00 [JF]
ack JF
16:56:17 [oedipus]
MS: burden of proof -- not productive use of time to point out flaws in specific decision making
16:57:17 [oedipus]
MS: not helpful to point out to chairs that there are oversights they have been asked to reconsider; comes down to don't have veto power over HTML WG chairs decisions on behalf of chairs; task of charis is to adjudicate decisions; how they do that is up to them, completely
16:57:46 [oedipus]
MS: shouldn't second guess chairs' decision -- we've been over details except for coming up with better arguments
16:57:48 [oedipus]
q+
16:58:13 [oedipus]
MS: chairs did not feel that info provided by TF and PF met thjeir quality standards
16:58:19 [oedipus]
q?
16:58:28 [JF]
+q
16:59:23 [oedipus]
MS: point out to chairs that missed something and let them decide afresh
16:59:36 [oedipus]
GJR: what to do when info goes into black hole
17:00:11 [JF]
+1 to GJR
17:00:31 [oedipus]
GJR: fear that being foced into multiple formal objections which will not help our cause
17:00:46 [oedipus]
MS: don't have ability to compell chairs to give more feedback on any issuye
17:01:13 [oedipus]
MS: chairs in position to adjudicate -- combative approach not productive
17:01:23 [oedipus]
JS: formal objection is not a remedy that is readily at hand
17:02:14 [oedipus]
JS: if need to file Formal Objection, addressed when director reviews for CR -- have to use what remedies exist -- if not getting adeqate response, need to document that because is part of basis of formal obgjection, but FO today, just going to cause more heat than light
17:02:25 [oedipus]
JS: will Formally Object should it be necessary
17:02:53 [oedipus]
JS: deadline is 6 monts off; have to use mechanisms avaiable today and document previous and new requests
17:03:56 [oedipus]
MC: 2 classes of issues: 1) dealt with but not to TF satisfaction; 2) issues coming down pike (can request clarification for this to make better proposals for future
17:04:11 [oedipus]
JF: need clarification
17:04:17 [oedipus]
MS: no! no! no! not productive
17:04:31 [oedipus]
JF: clarification from chairs?
17:04:41 [oedipus]
MS: can request, but can't force them to respond
17:05:11 [oedipus]
JF: i have asked for clarification and have not received it -- can TF ask for clarification on these points from chairs -- give3n 3 criteria
17:05:23 [oedipus]
JS: agendum for next meeting -- overtime already
17:05:36 [Zakim]
-Rich
17:05:41 [oedipus]
JS: JF please send email about this topic to public-html-a11y
17:05:48 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Overdue Open Actinos
17:05:52 [MikeSmith]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/overdue
17:06:08 [oedipus]
MS: some overdue for a while, please take look at list of actions and complete those assigned to them
17:06:22 [oedipus]
MS: at least put comments into tracker if have new info
17:06:34 [oedipus]
MS: start off with actions next week during 2 hour call
17:07:15 [oedipus]
LW: @title -- SteveF put together change proposal while i have action to write one -- talked with Steve about it, pretty comprehensive
17:07:27 [oedipus]
MS: post to public-html-a11y for review
17:08:10 [Zakim]
-John_Foliot
17:08:12 [MikeSmith]
q?
17:08:19 [JF]
ack JF
17:08:23 [Zakim]
-Léonie_Watson
17:08:23 [oedipus]
[ADJOURNED]
17:08:27 [Zakim]
-Eric_Carlson
17:08:36 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
17:08:37 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, drop Mike
17:08:37 [Zakim]
Mike is being disconnected
17:08:38 [Zakim]
-Mike
17:08:40 [Zakim]
-Janina
17:08:43 [janina]
janina has left #html-a11y
17:08:48 [Zakim]
-Gregory_Rosmaita
17:08:50 [Zakim]
-Marco_Ranon
17:08:51 [Zakim]
-Cynthia_Shelly
17:08:53 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended
17:08:54 [Zakim]
Attendees were John_Foliot, Eric_Carlson, Gregory_Rosmaita, Mike, Janina, Léonie_Watson, Michael_Cooper, Cynthia_Shelly, Rich, Marco_Ranon
17:09:03 [Laura]
Laura has joined #html-a11y
17:09:41 [oedipus]
i/[ADJOURNED]/MS: REMINDER--next week meeting starts an hour earlier (1500h) and lasts for 2 hours
17:09:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/06-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:10:26 [oedipus]
zakim, please part
17:10:26 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-a11y
17:10:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/06-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:19:05 [oedipus]
present+ Mike_Smith,Janina_Sajka,Eric_Carlson,Rich,Michael_Cooper,Leonie_Watson,Cynthia_Shelly,John_Foliot,Marco_Ranon
17:19:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/06-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:21:03 [oedipus]
s/zackim, ??P20 is me//
17:21:07 [oedipus]
s/zackim, +??P20 is me//
17:21:11 [oedipus]
i/next week on 2011-01-13 we will convene/scribenick: oedipus/
17:21:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/06-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
18:21:39 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items