14:54:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
14:54:08 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/05-i18n-irc
14:54:14 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #i18n
14:54:21 <aphillip> zakim, this will be I18N
14:54:21 <Zakim> "I18N" matches I18N_WG(MLW)10:00AM, and I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM, aphillip
14:54:34 <aphillip> zakim, this will be I18N_CoreWG
14:54:34 <Zakim> ok, aphillip; I see I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
14:54:43 <aphillip> Meeting: Internationalization Core Teleconference
14:54:48 <aphillip> Chair: Addison Phillips
14:54:52 <aphillip> Scribe: Addison Phillips
14:54:57 <aphillip> ScribeNick: aphillip
14:55:20 <aphillip> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2011Jan/0000.html
14:55:31 <aphillip> RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
14:55:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/05-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
14:55:48 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has now started
14:55:55 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
14:56:00 <Gwyneth> Gwyneth has joined #i18n
14:56:07 <aphillip> RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
14:56:13 <aphillip> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:56:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/05-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
14:57:02 <aphillip> zakim, [Microsoft] is Gwyneth
14:57:02 <Zakim> +Gwyneth; got it
14:59:28 <Zakim> +aphillip
14:59:42 <Zakim> +freedom
15:00:05 <matial> matial has joined #i18n
15:01:34 <Zakim> +matial
15:02:04 <aharon> aharon has joined #i18n
15:04:13 <Zakim> + +972.7.474.6aaaa
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15:04:30 <aharon> zakim, mute me
15:04:30 <Zakim> aharon should now be muted
15:04:35 <aphillip> Topic: Minutes and Agenda review
15:04:49 <aphillip> Topic: Action Items
15:05:37 <aphillip> 	Check on HTML5 language tag validator and send any comments
15:05:40 <aphillip> need to send
15:06:19 <aphillip> 	Write to i18n public groups and ask for opinion on whether <br> should be a paragraph separator or whitespace to be used to determin consensus
15:06:32 <aharon> zakim,unmute me
15:06:32 <Zakim> aharon should no longer be muted
15:06:49 <aphillip> write to public-i18n-bidi@
15:06:54 <aphillip> have feedback
15:07:13 <aphillip> trackbot, close ACTION-10
15:07:13 <trackbot> ACTION-10 Write to i18n public groups and ask for opinion on whether <br> should be a paragraph separator or whitespace to be used to determin consensus closed
15:07:34 <aphillip> reopened bug and made comment
15:09:20 <aphillip> Topic: Info Share
15:09:26 <aharon> zakim, mute me
15:09:26 <Zakim> aharon should now be muted
15:09:54 <aphillip> Topic: Bidi status
15:09:56 <aharon> zakim, unmute me
15:09:56 <Zakim> aharon should no longer be muted
15:10:20 <aphillip> discussing bug 10828
15:10:33 <aphillip> whethere <br> should be a paragraph separator
15:10:53 <David> David has joined #i18n
15:11:12 <aphillip> aharon: when reopened bug didn't say what we wanted; hoping hixie will ask what we want done or have an opinion
15:11:20 <aphillip> ... in response on public-i18n-bidi
15:11:29 <aphillip> ... got replies from Martin and Asmus
15:11:42 <aphillip> ... bring it to the editor's attention was the basic reply
15:11:52 <Zakim> +David
15:14:01 <aphillip> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2010Dec/0023.html
15:14:55 <aphillip> aharon: intention of email was...
15:15:12 <aphillip> ... all of the bugs are in a reasonable status to me
15:15:33 <aphillip> ... have reached end of line for each of these
15:16:05 <aphillip> ... aim in dividing into groups was to ensure that WG opinion could be applied in cases where consensus is in question
15:16:57 <aphillip> aharon: my groupings were "100% satisfied", "rejected but solid reasoning" (okay to close, but discuss), and "middle ground" (accepted with significant change)
15:17:09 <aphillip> ... don't expect to open many of these
15:17:38 <aphillip> David: on "middle ground" ones, the solution proposed doesn't quite match the "ideal solution"?
15:17:53 <aphillip> aharon: might be less than ideal, but at least significant difference
15:18:06 <Zakim> -matial
15:19:03 <aphillip> David: if they go ahead, will there be compatibility problems with doing things correct way?
15:20:55 <Zakim> +matial
15:21:48 <aphillip> Bug 10807<http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10807>
15:22:04 <aphillip> Proposes new ubi=on|off|”” attribute, mapping to unicode-bidi:isolate for ubi=on|””.
15:22:45 <aphillip> aharon: CSS3 has new bidi attribute "isolate", we proposed exposing in HTML as ubi
15:22:57 <aphillip> ... instead they created element <bdi>
15:23:01 <aphillip> ... like the name change
15:23:14 <aphillip> ... but it's harder to use as an element than as an attribute
15:23:50 <aphillip> aharon: but they think it represents an fundamental entity (an "isolated" somehting or other)
15:24:07 <aphillip> ... but I think it is less easy to use
15:25:15 <aphillip> aharon: they also changed the default stylesheet
15:25:29 <aphillip> ... so that the <outlook> element also has "bidi:isolate"
15:25:39 <aphillip> ... a little uncomfortable about that
15:25:51 <aphillip> ... should we ask to get rid of that
15:25:58 <aphillip> s/of that/of that?/
15:26:21 <aphillip> ... <output> inconsistent?
15:26:41 <aphillip> ... once it has that property, more difficult to override
15:26:57 <aphillip> ... and usually used for numbers, which don't generally need this
15:28:09 <aphillip> addison: should be separate comment/bug? maybe save for last call?
15:28:28 <aphillip> chair: any objection to leaving 10807 alone?
15:28:42 <aphillip> Bug 10808<http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10808>
15:28:58 <aphillip> Proposes new “auto” value for the dir attribute, and a new attribute, autodirmethod=first-strong|any-rtl|plaintext. Elements with dir=auto to be isolated by default (via separately-proposed ubi attribute, see 2.1 above).
15:29:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/05-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:29:26 <aphillip> aharon: 'auto' used to guess at direction
15:29:30 <aphillip> ... this was accepted
15:29:37 <aphillip> ... also proposed another attribute, autodirmethod
15:29:50 <aphillip> ... which would specify the algorithm for deciding the direction of auto
15:30:21 <aphillip> ... autodirmethod not accepted
15:30:59 <aphillip> aharon: also makes things simpler
15:31:23 <aphillip> ... end user can more easily control outcome by putting LRM or RLM or rephrasing etc.
15:33:25 <aphillip> chair: any changes?
15:33:48 <aphillip> matial: think this is a good decision
15:33:52 <aphillip> ... keep things simple
15:34:00 <aphillip> ... don't have proven better algorithms
15:34:44 <aphillip> Bug 10809<http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10809>
15:34:54 <aphillip> Proposes new submitdir attribute (boolean) for input and textarea elements, which would add a control to the submission whose name is that of the element suffixed with “_dir”, and whose value is the element’s computed direction at the time of submission.
15:35:16 <aphillip> Aharon: proposed submitdir which would add a field to submission, which would have either ltr or rtl as the value
15:35:37 <aphillip> ... and additional field would be the element's name plus "_dir"
15:36:03 <aphillip> ... long discussion; current resolution is new attribute 'dirname'
15:36:38 <aphillip> ... some people assumed 'submitdir' would change the "directory" to which to submit do
15:36:46 <aphillip> s/submit do/submit to/
15:37:28 <aphillip> aharon: also, they didn't want a boolean attribute and wanted the field name controlled
15:37:57 <aphillip> aharon: not that happy with 'dirname' because it is kind of unclear
15:38:28 <aphillip> ... and probably don't want 'dir' itself, since dir now has three values (including auto)
15:38:35 <aphillip> ... but value can't be auto
15:39:58 <aphillip> chair: satisfied enough?
15:40:21 <aphillip> aharon: yes, okay enough
15:44:07 <aphillip> Bug 10816<http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10816>
15:44:22 <aphillip> Proposes requiring user agents to implement the Unicode spec re Default Ignorable Code Points (Unicode Standard version 5.2, Chapter 5<http://unicode.org/versions/Unicode5.2.0/ch05.pdf>, section 5.21), even if the underlying platform does not handle them properly. In particular, this must be the case for the directional formatting characters in script dialog text, page titles, and tooltips. The HTML author can then use such characters to indicate the directio
15:44:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/05-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:44:55 <aphillip> aharon: if an app doesn't know how to deal with LRM/RLO, etc. etc.
15:45:01 <aphillip> ... it should just ignore them
15:45:15 <aphillip> ... as opposed to trying to draw them (e.g. as tofu boxes)
15:45:27 <aphillip> ... this is not followed by some well-known platforms
15:48:37 <aphillip> aharon: proposal was to add to html that user-agents implement DICP part of Unicode to the extent that they don't rely on platform to implement correctly
15:50:29 <aphillip> ... hixie's response was "it's already in Unicode, so why repeat it..."
15:51:46 <aphillip> ... but control characters no longer so important (since we have dir attributes) and platforms getting better anyway, okay with forgetting about it
15:52:15 <aphillip> matial: hixie rejected because has nothing to do with HTML protocol, just a recommendation for user-agents
15:53:05 <aphillip> aharon: possible to add, since there is some place for native controls, etc., so could include a note there
15:53:55 <aphillip> chair: any objections?
15:57:09 <aphillip> Topic: AOB?
15:57:34 <Zakim> -Gwyneth
15:57:37 <Zakim> -aphillip
15:57:39 <Zakim> -matial
15:57:41 <Zakim> -freedom
15:57:41 <Zakim> -aharon
15:57:43 <aphillip> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:57:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/05-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:57:45 <Zakim> -David
15:57:47 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has ended
15:57:48 <Zakim> Attendees were Gwyneth, aphillip, freedom, matial, +972.7.474.6aaaa, aharon, David
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15:59:15 <aharon> aharon has left #i18n
15:59:29 <freedom> freedom has left #i18n
16:00:17 <aphillip> zakim, bye
16:00:17 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18n
16:00:23 <aphillip> RRSAgent, bye
16:00:23 <RRSAgent> I see no action items