IRC log of CSS on 2011-01-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:48:36 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/05-CSS-irc
16:48:41 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
16:48:41 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
16:48:46 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:56:16 [glazou]
Zakim, code?
16:56:16 [Zakim]
the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), glazou
16:57:00 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:57:07 [Zakim]
+plinss
16:57:14 [Zakim]
+??P15
16:57:26 [glazou]
european bridge totally down for me
16:57:39 [kojiishi]
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16:58:07 [oyvind]
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16:59:06 [glazou]
ahhhh
16:59:09 [Zakim]
+David_Baron
17:00:38 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
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+[Microsoft.a]
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+glazou
17:01:13 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.aa]
17:01:14 [johnjan]
zakim, microsoft is johnjan
17:01:18 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft has me
17:01:19 [sylvaing]
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17:01:21 [Zakim]
+johnjan; got it
17:01:23 [Zakim]
sorry, arronei, I do not recognize a party named 'microsoft'
17:01:31 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft.aa has me
17:01:31 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
17:01:33 [dsinger]
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+[Apple]
17:02:07 [Zakim]
+fantasai
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+SteveZ
17:02:22 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
17:02:27 [dsinger]
./me depth-first numbering. or golomb codes :-)
17:02:46 [kojiishi]
zakim, ipcaller is me
17:02:46 [Zakim]
+kojiishi; got it
17:03:37 [cathy]
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+cathy
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17:06:06 [Zakim]
+bradk
17:06:39 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
17:06:56 [fantasai]
plinss: Anything to add to the agenda?
17:07:04 [johnjan]
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17:07:15 [fantasai]
Topic: Comments on WOFF
17:07:18 [johnjan]
zakim, microsoft is johnjan
17:07:18 [Zakim]
sorry, johnjan, I do not recognize a party named 'microsoft'
17:07:31 [fantasai]
SteveZilles says something quietly
17:07:36 [smfr]
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17:07:54 [dsinger]
zakim, [microsoft] has johnjan
17:07:57 [Zakim]
sorry, dsinger, I do not recognize a party named '[microsoft]'
17:08:04 [Zakim]
+smfr
17:08:08 [fantasai]
Something about feedback that didn't make it to the public list
17:08:23 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft.aa has johnjan
17:08:23 [Zakim]
+johnjan; got it
17:08:32 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Bert sent feedback about WOFF to the WG list, but it never made it to www-style
17:09:16 [szilles]
i sent comments on WOFF http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jan/0020.html
17:09:53 [fantasai]
plinss notes we are already late on comments for WOFF
17:10:07 [Zakim]
-bradk
17:10:12 [fantasai]
SteveZ: Most of my comments were editorial. The other seemed to be a conflict in their spec, possibly nontrivial to fix.
17:10:40 [fantasai]
SteveZ: They have a note about not following the XML ID syntax when putting an ID in the font, since elsewhere they say it must be well-formed XML in the metadata
17:10:41 [dsinger]
seems like it's either an XML ID or it needs a different name
17:10:59 [Zakim]
-cathy
17:11:27 [Zakim]
+cathy
17:11:45 [fantasai]
plinss: How do we want to proceed on this?
17:12:06 [fantasai]
SteveZ: Do wehave a URL for Bert's comments?
17:12:28 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Should ask Bert if he could either make his comments public, or if we can forward it.
17:12:39 [fantasai]
sylvaing: He's on both working groups
17:12:59 [fantasai]
plinss: Are these official comments from the WG? Do we need discussion on these?
17:13:06 [fantasai]
plinss: We have a history of unofficial comments...
17:13:23 [fantasai]
dbaron: A bunch of these comments seem like comments on WOFF, not on how it relates to the work of the CSSWG.
17:13:32 [Zakim]
+ +47.21.65.aaaa
17:13:35 [fantasai]
dbaron: It seems like official comments from the group ought to be things in the latter category.
17:13:40 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.766.aabb
17:13:41 [fantasai]
sylvaing: That's true.
17:13:46 [howcome]
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17:14:02 [bradk]
zakim, aabb is me
17:14:02 [Zakim]
+bradk; got it
17:14:05 [fantasai]
SteveZ: The only thing I'd say is that some of the comments are from experience developing specs that they might not have.
17:14:36 [fantasai]
SteveZ: Unfortunately ChrisL isn't here, to explain why some of those were done
17:15:35 [shan]
Zakim, list conferences
17:15:35 [Zakim]
I see WAI_PF()12:00PM, VB_VBWG(SCXML)12:00PM, Style_CSS FP()12:00PM, RWC_web-per(WPWG)12:00PM active
17:15:39 [Zakim]
also scheduled at this time are Team_(wf)17:00Z, XML_EXI()12:30PM, T&S_EGOV(UseWebTech)12:00PM, INC_SWXG()11:00AM
17:16:49 [fantasai]
Sylvaing: Well, the ID thing was because there are a number of existing WOFF fonts out there that were using malformed XML
17:16:57 [fantasai]
fantasai: ..
17:17:31 [fantasai]
SteveZ: Maybe they should change the note to say that although the ID must be well-formed XML, but that some currently-existing existing fonts might not adhere to this syntax.
17:18:25 [fantasai]
SteveZ: I would prefer to have my comments sent as formal comments by the WG, but I'm happy to send over unofficially.
17:18:40 [fantasai]
Sylvaing: This is good feedback. It has to be clear what to do
17:18:55 [fantasai]
plinss not hearing any objections
17:19:05 [fantasai]
plinss: We also have Bert's comments. Do we want to send those as formal comments?
17:19:23 [fantasai]
plinss: There was still some discussion on some of Bert's comments.
17:20:23 [fantasai]
fantasai: There are good comments, but I don't see a reason to send them as WG comments.
17:20:56 [fantasai]
fantasai: They're not CSS comments, just good comments.
17:21:25 [fantasai]
fantasai: LC requires addressing all comments, not just WG comments, so I don't see a reason to send them on behalf of the WG.
17:21:57 [fantasai]
howcome: ...
17:22:11 [fantasai]
dsinger: Do we need to send a message from the WG that we have no comments?
17:22:41 [fantasai]
howcome: We can do better than that. Say there were no CSS-specific comments, but there were other comments that will be submitted individually.
17:23:04 [fantasai]
sylvaing expresses concern that jdaggett hasn't sent any direct feedback.
17:23:24 [fantasai]
plinss: I don't think we can delay a week. I will send him an email asking if he has any feedback, and if not, send the WG message.
17:23:32 [fantasai]
plinss: Anything else on this topic?
17:23:43 [fantasai]
Topic: CSS2.1
17:24:02 [fantasai]
plinss: We still have a bunch of blocking tests and a bunch of invalid tests.
17:24:33 [fantasai]
arronei: With the 32-bit issue we talked about last time, I think I've addressed them all.
17:25:00 [fantasai]
arronei: I will send email about it. Would be great if people could review them.
17:25:16 [fantasai]
arronei: All I need is a review from anybody to look at them.
17:25:25 [fantasai]
dbaron: I can have a look when he sends out the URL.
17:25:32 [fantasai]
arronei: Ok, will do that in the next half-hour
17:26:42 [fantasai]
arronei: I've flagged the tests as 32bit and as may so you know they're optional
17:27:58 [fantasai]
plinss: My biggest concern at this point are the tests that have blocking failures
17:28:10 [fantasai]
plinss: We need to either modify the test or modify the spec
17:28:13 [plinss]
http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/blocking
17:29:03 [fantasai]
plinss: Do we want to discuss these one by one on a telecon? If not how do we move forward?
17:29:55 [fantasai]
fantasai: active-selector-002 was updated for RC5
17:30:13 [fantasai]
fantasai: I thought background-intrinsic was fixed. If it's still not passing, it's likely a test bug...
17:30:29 [Zakim]
-glazou
17:32:28 [fantasai]
arronei: I think discussing them on the conference call is difficult, especially some of the margin and page breaking ones
17:32:37 [fantasai]
arronei: It's unfortunate we don't have an F2F soon
17:32:39 [oyvind]
I think neither webkit nor opera follow the spec on background-intrinsic
17:32:51 [oyvind]
and the others don't support svg backgrounds
17:33:11 [fantasai]
arronei: ....
17:33:41 [fantasai]
smfr: How about each test author creates a wiki page for that specific test
17:34:02 [fantasai]
smfr: Right now we have no way to collaboratively dump information on why we think that test is failing
17:34:43 [fantasai]
arronei: I'm handling mine. In most cases the case just need to be updated.
17:34:48 [oyvind]
http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/issues or http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/invalid (which seems to duplicate the former)?
17:35:07 [fantasai]
smfr: You might know, but the vendors don't
17:35:43 [fantasai]
fantasai: It doesn't make sense to me to do that for the invalid tests, but for the blocking tests, that might be a good idea.
17:36:26 [fantasai]
plinss: Arron, were you talking about the blocking tests or the invalid tests?
17:36:38 [fantasai]
arronei: both.. I have some updates for the blocking tests
17:36:53 [fantasai]
dbaron: The previous wiki page that listed blocking tests had notes on some of those
17:37:25 [oyvind]
http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/results
17:37:55 [fantasai]
plinss: I don't want to lose the notes, but I didn't want to move them over since they're on a much older release
17:38:00 [fantasai]
http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1
17:38:23 [fantasai]
some discussion of all the different pages that are being created to track problems
17:38:33 [fantasai]
http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/issues
17:38:44 [fantasai]
I think the pages are just that one and the ones peter listed
17:39:02 [fantasai]
http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/results
17:39:07 [fantasai]
http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/invalid
17:39:12 [fantasai]
http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/blocking
17:39:34 [fantasai]
fantasai: Unless Peter created more pages, that should be all of them.
17:40:58 [fantasai]
arronei volunteers to consolidate everything into the invalid/blocking pages
17:41:35 [fantasai]
arronei: I'll create subpages for the blocking issue
17:42:08 [fantasai]
fantasai suggests grouping tests that have the same issue into the same wiki page
17:42:52 [fantasai]
plinss: We need to have other people take responsibility for analyzing the test failures, not just arron.
17:43:12 [fantasai]
arronei: I'll do enough to get us started
17:43:53 [smfr]
z-index-abspos-009 is a hixie test
17:44:02 [dbaron]
A bunch of them (e.g., abspos-*, float-wrap-*), we've already discussed in telecons and discussed next steps for implementors.
17:44:52 [fantasai]
plinss: I want to get a commitment from the owners to review these tests and describe their status by next week
17:45:00 [fantasai]
dbaron: The ones that are mine we already had a telecon discussion about
17:45:07 [fantasai]
plinss: Did we get to a resolution?
17:45:26 [fantasai]
dbaron: I think in both cases we came to a resolution of who was going to fix their implementations
17:45:31 [fantasai]
dbaron: But I couldn't find minutes
17:45:40 [fantasai]
dbaron: For the abspos one it was a small bug in Gecko and one in Opera
17:45:58 [fantasai]
dbaron: For the float-wrap ones we had passes from MS, and I said I would flip our behavior after FF4 and see what happens.
17:46:02 [dbaron]
I think it was Opera, but not sure
17:46:09 [dbaron]
(this is all from memory)
17:47:35 [fantasai]
dbaron: Actually float-wrap-top might be different from the ones I think... I'd need to go back and look
17:47:43 [fantasai]
plinss: active-selector-002 has been updated
17:47:53 [fantasai]
plinss: active-page-breaks?
17:47:55 [fantasai]
fantasai: rewritten
17:48:34 [fantasai]
dbaron: bidi-004 is tricky. There are a bunch of implementations that are close, but not very close.
17:48:40 [fantasai]
dbaron: The remaining bug for us is very hairy
17:49:05 [fantasai]
plinss: Can you write up the comments?
17:49:10 [fantasai]
dbaron: Prefer if fantasai did
17:49:23 [fantasai]
fantasai: I can do the ones I understand, and the ones I'm not sure of would like you to review and add comments.
17:49:27 [fantasai]
fantasai: Can't do floats-wrap though
17:49:30 [fantasai]
dbaron: I'll do those
17:50:05 [fantasai]
fantasai: Here's the assignments:
17:50:09 [fantasai]
fantasai: Arron does MS tests
17:50:16 [fantasai]
fantasai: dbaron does floats-wrap and abspos
17:50:25 [fantasai]
fantasai: Arron does margin-collapse
17:50:44 [fantasai]
fantasai: I do anything under my folder, HP's folder, Mozilla's folder (other than the above), and Hixie's folder
17:50:54 [fantasai]
fantasai: and approved/
17:51:05 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think that should cover all of the tests
17:51:19 [dbaron]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2010Nov/0124.html may be relevant data for the margin-* tests
17:51:40 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think the first step is for Arron to create a template for subpages and put a few up so that dbaron and I can copy
17:51:48 [fantasai]
arronei: Sure, I'll do that today
17:51:59 [fantasai]
plinss: We also have a bunch of tests that we're lacking data for
17:52:05 [fantasai]
plinss: Got a bunch of results from Apple this morning
17:52:19 [fantasai]
plinss: Still need data from the other browsers
17:52:26 [fantasai]
plinss: Big gap here is Prince, which may save us in some cases
17:52:51 [fantasai]
fantasai: Another implementation we can test is Antenna House. That may be especially useful for the page-breaking tests
17:53:46 [fantasai]
fantasai: Although we'd want to test against the updated tests, since a bunch have been fixed.
17:54:12 [fantasai]
fantasai: I'll see if I can set up a nightly build on the server
17:54:24 [fantasai]
fantasai: Now that we have a server with somewhat up-to-date software...
17:54:31 [fantasai]
plinss: I can help with that if you need any help
17:54:48 [fantasai]
plinss: Ok, let's get a nightly build set up and then we'll ping Antenna House
17:55:09 [fantasai]
plinss: any other topics?
17:55:33 [dbaron]
Topic: module template
17:55:45 [fantasai]
fantasai: I updated the module template and put it on dev.w3.org
17:55:49 [fantasai]
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-module/
17:56:15 [fantasai]
fantasai: You'll notice there's a lot more boilerplate text. This is partly because there was a lot of normative text in the Snapshot
17:56:23 [fantasai]
fantasai: Which if we don't have a normative Snapshot, needs to be moved someplace else.
17:57:02 [fantasai]
fantasai: This means that all of our existing modules need to be updated with the relative normative bits.
17:57:40 [fantasai]
fantasai: That would be, Selectors, Namespaces, Background and Borders, UI, MultiCol, Color, Media Queries, etc.
17:57:59 [Zakim]
-bradk
17:58:52 [fantasai]
fantasai: So I would suggest everyone review the template, since this has to go in all our specs...
17:59:28 [fantasai]
SteveZ: We haven't resolved the Snapshot issue.
17:59:53 [fantasai]
SteveZ: My concern is that by copying this stuff all over the place, it will get inconsistent.
18:00:06 [fantasai]
SteveZ: But I think we agreed to postpone the Snapshot
18:00:21 [fantasai]
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-module/#partial
18:00:31 [fantasai]
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-module/#experimental
18:00:38 [fantasai]
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-module/#placement
18:00:45 [fantasai]
These are the bits that were taken from the Snapshot
18:00:58 [Zakim]
-David_Baron
18:01:18 [fantasai]
plinss: So meanwhile, the editors should review these.
18:01:38 [fantasai]
plinss: That's it for today.
18:01:38 [Zakim]
- +47.21.65.aaaa
18:01:40 [Zakim]
-johnjan
18:01:41 [fantasai]
Meeting closed.
18:01:41 [Zakim]
-smfr
18:01:41 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.a]
18:01:42 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.aa]
18:01:42 [Zakim]
-SteveZ
18:01:44 [Zakim]
-kojiishi
18:01:45 [Zakim]
-plinss
18:01:46 [Zakim]
-cathy
18:01:53 [Zakim]
-[Apple]
18:02:00 [cathy]
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18:02:07 [Zakim]
-??P15
18:02:34 [Zakim]
-fantasai
18:02:35 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:02:36 [Zakim]
Attendees were plinss, David_Baron, glazou, johnjan, arronei, dsinger, fantasai, SteveZ, kojiishi, cathy, bradk, smfr, +47.21.65.aaaa, +1.650.766.aabb
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19:37:41 [arronei]
Simple template for the blocking testcases http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/blocking/margin-collapse
19:38:29 [arronei]
please review the template and apply it to your testcase failures on the blocking page
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