14:55:29 RRSAgent has joined #html-xml
14:55:29 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/04-html-xml-irc
14:55:31 Zakim has joined #html-xml
14:55:38 zakim, this will be html-xml
14:55:38 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, Norm
14:55:44 zakim, this will be xml-html
14:55:45 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, Norm
14:55:50 zakim, list conferences
14:55:52 I see T&S_XMLSEC()10:00AM, Team_(wf)14:04Z, WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)9:00AM, Team_(RevCadence)9:00AM active
14:55:54 also scheduled at this time are Team_(SPONSOR)10:00AM, MWI_BPWG()9:30AM, XML_(TAG TF)10:00AM, SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM, MM_MMI(ITesting)9:00AM, INC_SSN()9:00AM, VB_VBWG()10:00AM,
14:55:57 ... IA_Team()10:00AM, TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM
14:56:33 was it Tue or Wed?
14:56:42 Tuesday
14:56:45 k
14:56:47 In 4 minutes :-)
14:56:55 If I can figure out what conference Zakim thinks it is...
14:57:16 last time the agenda had a code
14:57:33 Zakim, this will be HXTF
14:57:33 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, anne
14:57:46 zakim, this will be xhtf
14:57:46 ok, Norm; I see XML_(TAG TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:58:05 Meeting: XML/HTML Task Force
14:58:05 Date: 4 January 2011
14:58:05 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2010/html-xml/2011/01/04-agenda
14:58:05 Meeting: 2
14:58:05 Chair: Norm
14:58:05 Scribe: Norm
14:58:08 ScribeNick: Norm
14:58:28 Meeting: HTML/XML Task Force
14:58:47 Zakim, passcode?
14:58:47 the conference code is 9483 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), anne
14:59:10 XML_(TAG TF)10:00AM has now started
14:59:17 +Norm
15:00:00 +??P3
15:00:04 Zakim, ??P3 is me
15:00:04 +anne; got it
15:02:19 +Yves
15:03:30 +??P31
15:03:51 zakim, ??p31 is Henri
15:03:51 +Henri; got it
15:04:02 +Noah_Mendelsohn
15:04:52 +Mike_Champion
15:04:52 noah has joined #html-xml
15:05:07 +MKay
15:05:43 zakim, who is here?
15:05:43 On the phone I see Norm, anne, Yves, Henri, Noah_Mendelsohn, Mike_Champion, MKay
15:05:45 On IRC I see noah, Zakim, RRSAgent, Norm, anne, hober, hsivonen, Yves
15:06:10 MikeK has joined #html-xml
15:08:23 Present: Norm, Anne, Henri, Noah, MChampion, MKay
15:08:49 Present: Norm, Anne, Henri, Noah, MChampion, MKay, Yves
15:09:18 Topic: Accept this agenda?
15:09:18 http://www.w3.org/2010/html-xml/2011/01/04-agenda
15:09:25 Accepted.
15:09:54 Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
15:09:54 -> http://www.w3.org/2010/html-xml/12/21-minutes.html
15:10:08 Accepted.
15:10:22 Topic: Next meeting: 11 January 2011
15:10:44 No regrets heard.
15:11:03 Topic: Welcome to new members
15:11:07 Welcome Anne and TV.
15:11:33 Topic: Use cases and articulating goals
15:11:44 MKay: There's been a bit of traffic over the holiday.
15:11:48 ...I've only skimmed it.
15:11:56 q+
15:12:11 ack hsivonen
15:12:45 Henri: One thing I'd like to highlight is my observation that HTML5 as been converging standards mode and quirks mode and HTML/XML data models.
15:13:26 ...One thing to keep in mind that trying to make progress by adding new modes may lead to divergence in other areas.
15:13:38 Norm: In what sense are new modes convergence?
15:14:11 Henri: Last time we talked about the possibility of a new mode that would make the parser more XML-like, I'd like to point to out that that would be divergent from the legacy code path.
15:14:40 ...Convergence in one place may cause divergence in another place. Trying to converge just with XML, ignoring legacy HTML, would be taking a step backwards.
15:14:48 Norm: I think that's a fair point.
15:15:26 q+ to suggest summarizing the thread
15:16:05 ...I do think the email became a bit argumentative and I was tempted to try to correct that but decided instead to let it play out.
15:16:09 ack nah
15:16:11 ack noah
15:16:11 noah, you wanted to suggest summarizing the thread
15:16:31 Noah: I had tuned for a bit, but came back to it a few days ago.
15:16:53 ...I think someone could pretty succinctly set down the points of the arguments.
15:17:19 ...Distributed extensiblity is good or bad, in or out of the spirit of a certain kind of markup
15:17:37 ...Or what matters is really the code or broader matters.
15:17:57 ...We should try to capture them, without taking sides. Then as the discussion moves forward there will be tradeoffs to make.
15:18:27 ...Some folks will remain in favor or oppposed to certain points regardless, but we could capture those points.
15:18:50 Norm: Yes, that sounds like a good idea.
15:18:57 Noah: I think that might also clear the email thread.
15:19:41 q+
15:20:03 Noah: I think opinions fall on a scale, the degree to which the user agent community represents a definitive or only a significant fraction of what we need to worry about.
15:20:31 ack hsivonen
15:21:11 Henri: I prefer to go over the use cases and start there rather than listing disagreements about things like distributed extensibility which isn't a use case in and of itself.
15:21:30 FWIW, I agree with Henri on focusing on use cases. I was just observing that a lot of the email thread was thrashing on pros and cons of distribtued extensibility, and I think we can net out the disagreement and move on. For now.
15:22:51 MChampion: I agree that focusing on the use cases is a good place to start. Identifying old arguments may be a good idea, but I like where [Norm] started. It may be more important to converge with one side or another, but that's not a filter on the list of use cases.
15:23:40 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-xml/2010Dec/0064.html
15:23:47 Topic: Use cases
15:24:09 Norm: Use case 1 was an XML toolchain to consume HTML5 content
15:25:44 Norm attempts to summarize the world.
15:25:56 q+
15:26:14 q+ to ask if this is the place to promote enlarging the polyglot subset?
15:26:30 Mchampion has joined #html-xml
15:26:33 ack hsivonen
15:27:05 Henri: In this case, if the application receives application/xml+html content, it should instantiate an XML parser and if it gets text/html, it should instantiate an HTML5 parser.
15:27:17 ...From that point on, HTML, MathML, and SVG elements will appear in their respective namespaces.
15:27:48 ...The HTML5 parser won't report elements in any other namespaces, but if you've written your code to handle arbitrary namespaces, then whatever the HTML5 parser gives you will be a subset of the stuff you're already ready to handle.
15:28:03 ...There's no need for the application to abstract anything about namespaces. The HTML5 parser already does that for you.
15:28:06 q?
15:28:10 ack noah
15:28:10 noah, you wanted to ask if this is the place to promote enlarging the polyglot subset?
15:28:29 q+
15:28:35 Noah: I'm not sure on the right point here, is this a point where we should ask about enlarging the polyglot subset?
15:29:59 ...I think Henri may have suggested that we're already heading in that direction.
15:30:01 ack hsivonen
15:30:25 Henri: Surely extending the polyglot subset isn't a use case. It might be a solution to a use case, but as long as we're considering use cases, that's not a use case.
15:30:42 Henri: I guess I was asking a terminology question in some sense.
15:32:00 Norm: I'll try to make that clearer.
15:32:14 s/that/WF XML vs. polyglot specifically/
15:32:22 s/Henri/Noah/
15:33:12 Anne: I think one interesting use case is the ability to generate XML w/o XML tools. You might do this by just generating strings, for example, the way that WordPress generates feeds.
15:33:47 ...Pretty much anyone who generates XML using string concatenation run into problems with, for example, certain characters, and then get a non-well-formed page.
15:34:03 ...I think that's one of the problems that people have with doing XML properly.
15:34:07 I agree that this is major problem for people who try to use XML
15:34:45 Norm: How does that bear on the intersection of HTML and XML?
15:35:16 Anne: I think this is pretty much what HTML was designed to support. About 95% of HTML wasn't valid in 2005, but the upside is that a lot more people can publish it.
15:35:30 Did Anne say 95% of html or xml?
15:35:36 HTML
15:35:40 tnx
15:36:15 Norm: So the use case is wanting to produce structured markup and if you're producing HTML it's easy but if you're producing XML it's hard.
15:37:06 SCRIBE NOTE: Add topiic for Anne's use case
15:37:39 Norm: Use case 2 was the other way around, I have HTML5 tools and I want to process XmL
15:37:44 s/XmL/XML/
15:38:08 q+
15:38:28 Norm summarizes his email.
15:38:31 ack hsivonen
15:38:58 Henri: Now that HTML5 has unified the data model between HTML and XML, the goal is to be able to use the XML toolchain except for the parser or the serializer.
15:39:13 ...What *is* the HTML5 "toolchain"?
15:39:34 ...Who's use case is this?
15:40:57 q+
15:41:46 Norm: I want to do things like put Docbook XML into an otherwise HTML stream, and use CSS and maybe Javascript to style it.
15:41:49 So you want to embed raw XML into HTML? Or does the HTML parser need to handle XML documents?
15:41:51 Norm: I imagine there will be HTML5 tools for doing things, like say offline rendering, and I might want to use them with XML even if they were designed to do HTML5.
15:42:05 Henri: I can't think of any system that doesn't, or wouldn't, naturally support XML too.
15:42:07 That use case seems significant to me.
15:42:12 q?
15:42:18 ack MikeK
15:42:32 Henri, isn't the question in part what the specifications say about the use case, as well as noting that current implementations tend to support it?
15:42:57 MKay: Thinking of things that typically form part of an authoring or publishing platform: like validation, transclusion, differencing of documents, and those are all things that one can do by processing the HTML into XML and using XML tools.
15:43:19 ...But that's always a slightly undesirable thing to do if you end up modifying content that human authors are going to touch again.
15:43:49 ...So how should those things be done? Should they be done all in an HTML world, or should we convert them to XML?
15:43:52 I think people sometimes use server-side tooling, like PHP, for transclusion scenarios.
15:43:53 noah, maybe, but specs can't make tools support stuff that the tool authors don't see demand for. Hence, HTML5 allows implementations of only text/html or only application/xhtml+xml
15:43:56 Anne: Why does this require an HTML5 toolchain?
15:44:03 q+
15:44:29 MKay: Yes, you can do it with XML, but the question is can you get back what you started with, or something that the original author recognizes?
15:44:30 ack
15:44:33 ack Norm
15:46:20 Norm: The HTML community is large and I can't imagine that there won't some day be HTML tools that I'll need or want to use with my XML content.
15:46:55 Henri: I think if the tool vendor makes the tool HTML only, then the tool vendor doesn't care about XML. So you want to make the tool work with XML even though the tool vendor doesn't care about you.
15:47:29 q+
15:47:31 ...So you're trying to do something to work around the vendor not caring.
15:48:23 Norm: Fair enough. But I imagine this *will be the case*.
15:48:26 ack noah
15:48:53 Noah: +1 to what Norm said. Having tools that are immensely valuable that don't have the APIs you need are extremely common.
15:49:14 ...This tool is 85% of exactly what I want but there's this big gap.
15:49:45 q+
15:50:23 -Henri
15:50:24 Norm: I think this is largely about making XML play nicer with HTML
15:50:50 +??P7
15:50:58 Zakim, ??P7 is hsivonen
15:50:58 +hsivonen; got it
15:51:35 Henri: It seems to me that having a simpler XML doesn't solve your problem if you already have the XML. You already have legacy content, so you already have the problem.
15:51:48 Noah: I think that depends on what the subset is.
15:52:01 ...If you ruled out an odd character set, for example, then that might still be useful.
15:52:09 ...Processing instructions are somewhere near the middle.
15:52:42 ...In some cases the subset might be more useful.
15:52:59 Norm: Yes, I think that's what I was getting at. Dropping namespaces and throwing out PIs might be a lot easier than converting to HTML.
15:53:02 q?
15:53:06 ack hsivonen
15:53:46 Anne: It would be nice if it was a little clearer that it was about embedding XML in HTML.
15:54:05 ...Parsing a real XML document with an HTML5 parser is probably never going to be possible.
15:55:22 Norm: This use case really wasn't about embedding to me.
15:55:40 Anne: They seem very closely related.
15:55:49 Anne, you are now restricting the use case with assumptions about solutions :-)
15:56:05 Norm: Fair enough. I was trying to tease apart the use cases to help the discussion.
15:56:18 hsivonen, heh, fair enough
15:56:42 Topic: Any other business?
15:56:56 Norm: Sounds like we're happy to talk about use cases, so perhaps we should be thinking about producing a use cases document.
15:57:11 General sounds of assent.
15:57:26 Adjourned.
15:57:29 -Mike_Champion
15:57:30 -Noah_Mendelsohn
15:57:30 rrsagent, set logs world visible
15:57:31 -Yves
15:57:32 -hsivonen
15:57:34 -MKay
15:57:35 -Norm
15:57:39 rrsagent, draft minutes
15:57:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/04-html-xml-minutes.html Norm
15:58:49 -anne
15:58:51 XML_(TAG TF)10:00AM has ended
15:58:53 Attendees were Norm, anne, Yves, Henri, Noah_Mendelsohn, Mike_Champion, MKay, hsivonen
16:08:01 MikeK has left #html-xml
17:55:11 Zakim has left #html-xml
18:25:26 rrsagent, bye
18:25:26 I see no action items