17:43:24 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:43:24 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/12/16-ua-irc
17:43:26 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:43:26 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ua
17:43:28 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:43:28 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 17 minutes
17:43:29 <trackbot> Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:43:29 <trackbot> Date: 16 December 2010
17:56:06 <JAllan> Chair: JimAllan, KellyFord
17:56:25 <JAllan> Agenda+ Dec 23 and 30 meetings
17:56:32 <JAllan> Agenda+ Review proposals sent to list
17:56:51 <JAllan> Agenda+ Testing UAAG and requirements from a test environment
17:59:21 <JAllan> agenda + indicating a context menu http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2010Dec/0008.html (beginning of thread)
17:59:38 <jeanne-bbiab> jeanne-bbiab has joined #ua
18:00:19 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
18:00:26 <Zakim> +Jim_Allan
18:01:52 <kford> kford has joined #ua
18:02:18 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
18:02:30 <kford> zakim, microsoft is kford
18:02:30 <Zakim> +kford; got it
18:02:47 <kford> zakim, agenda?
18:02:47 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
18:02:49 <Zakim> 1. Dec 23 and 30 meetings [from JAllan]
18:02:50 <Zakim> 2. Review proposals sent to list [from JAllan]
18:02:52 <Zakim> 3. Testing UAAG and requirements from a test environment [from JAllan]
18:02:53 <Zakim> 4. indicating a context menu http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2010Dec/0008.html (beginning of thread) [from JAllan]
18:02:59 <Zakim> +Jeanne
18:03:29 <Jan> Jan has joined #ua
18:03:52 <Jan> zakim, code?
18:03:52 <Zakim> the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Jan
18:04:19 <Zakim> +??P19
18:04:28 <Jan> zakim, ??P19 is really Jan
18:04:28 <Zakim> +Jan; got it
18:04:41 <JAllan> regrets: GregL
18:04:53 <kford> zakim, agenda?
18:04:53 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
18:04:54 <Zakim> 1. Dec 23 and 30 meetings [from JAllan]
18:04:55 <Zakim> 2. Review proposals sent to list [from JAllan]
18:04:56 <Zakim> 3. Testing UAAG and requirements from a test environment [from JAllan]
18:04:58 <Zakim> 4. indicating a context menu http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2010Dec/0008.html (beginning of thread) [from JAllan]
18:05:02 <kford> Chair: Jim_Allan
18:05:12 <kford> rrsagent, make minutes
18:05:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/16-ua-minutes.html kford
18:06:46 <Zakim> + +1.617.325.aaaa
18:07:09 <kford> Scribe: kford
18:09:00 <KimPatch> KimPatch has joined #ua
18:09:00 <kford> zakim, agenda?
18:09:00 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
18:09:02 <Zakim> 1. Dec 23 and 30 meetings [from JAllan]
18:09:03 <Zakim> 2. Review proposals sent to list [from JAllan]
18:09:05 <Zakim> 3. Testing UAAG and requirements from a test environment [from JAllan]
18:09:06 <JAllan> zakim, aaaa is really KimPatch
18:09:07 <Zakim> 4. indicating a context menu http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2010Dec/0008.html (beginning of thread) [from JAllan]
18:09:10 <Zakim> +KimPatch; got it
18:10:55 <JAllan> topic: Testing requirements and Suites
18:11:31 <JAllan> WAI has resource to work on testing
18:11:55 <JAllan> ...what are the commonalities of requirements across WG
18:12:08 <JAllan> ...possible library of test items
18:12:21 <JAllan> ...UAAG may need more human testing
18:12:42 <JAllan> ...need common reporting structure
18:13:26 <JAllan> ...UAAG needs to develop requirements for validating guidelines
18:14:14 <JAllan> KF: push to test WAI-ARIA, can any of their test cases be used in other WG
18:15:15 <JAllan> ...User interaction part is hard to automate for UAAG testing
18:15:53 <JAllan> js: for UAAG to be finalized, we have to test that 2 browsers meet every requirement 
18:16:08 <JAllan> ... needs to be open
18:17:44 <JAllan> ...anything developed should be sharable 
18:18:37 <JAllan> KP: how to test with extensions
18:19:34 <JAllan> kf: list success criteria, and how browser x plus what extension meet the criteria
18:19:40 <Jan> q+
18:20:18 <JAllan> kp: should provide the link to the extension download
18:21:21 <JAllan> jr: are there candidate systems that do testing, that we can write a harness around
18:25:57 <JAllan> ja: talked about STEP from US Gov and WGBH, Usablenet Lift machine, powershots.org, powermapper.com cross browser testing
18:26:15 <JAllan> kf: tough part is the user interaction part
18:26:58 <JAllan> ... test all settings, and cascade of alternative content, etc.
18:27:11 <JAllan> ...standard test items would help
18:27:47 <JAllan> js: how practically are we going to manage to test all major browsers to find 2 that meet our guidelines
18:28:02 <JAllan> ...and track all of this 
18:28:22 <JAllan> ...This is what the W3 will build, the tracking tool
18:28:53 <JAllan> kp: need to be able to share settings. would be neat if it were a browser extension
18:31:07 <JAllan> js: need to manage what the tests are, who passed, and why
18:34:59 <JAllan> kp: how would the testing work
18:35:17 <JAllan> js: WCAG testing keyboard accessible
18:36:21 <JAllan> ...pull up test case, it says purpose of test, file to use, function that user must do, criteria for passing, then add results to reporting tool
18:37:36 <JAllan> UAAG 1.0 test suite http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/TS/html401/
18:39:42 <JAllan> kf: open source testing tracking system?
18:40:26 <JAllan> jr: yes, they exist. but don't meet our needs
18:40:50 <JAllan> scribe: jallan
18:44:57 <JAllan> regrets + simon, mark
18:46:17 <JAllan> zakim, take up agenda item 4
18:46:17 <Zakim> 'item\ 4' does not match any agenda item, JAllan
18:46:28 <JAllan> zakim, open item 4
18:46:28 <Zakim> agendum 4. "indicating a context menu http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2010Dec/0008.html (beginning of thread)" taken up [from JAllan]
18:49:07 <JAllan> kf: custom context menus are authoring issue. 
18:50:23 <JAllan> ja: how is existence of the custom menu presented to the user.
18:50:31 <JAllan> kf: this is an issue.
18:51:40 <JAllan> jr: general issue. elements have special function, how is user supposed to know about invisible behaviors.
18:52:35 <JAllan> ... anytime content is implemented in a way that semantics are available to the browser or a11y api, then all bets are off
18:53:40 <JAllan> ja: does this fall under the WCAG catch all - no mater what it has to work
18:55:26 <kford> JR: Used example of text alternative that is explained in following paragraph as that passes wcag.
18:55:34 <JAllan> jr: WCAG 1.1.1 all non-text content. image with caption after it, is OK. no requirement for programmatically determinable
18:56:55 <JAllan> kf: what does this do to our cascade of alternatives.
18:57:56 <JAllan> jr: that is why we couch our guidelines in 'if no semantics are available, then we can't do anything with it'
18:58:04 <Jan> text alternative
18:58:06 <Jan>     Text that is programmatically associated with non-text content or referred to from text that is programmatically associated with non-text content. Programmatically associated text is text whose location can be programmatically determined from the non-text content.
18:58:07 <Jan>     Example: An image of a chart is described in text in the paragraph after the chart. The short text alternative for the chart indicates that a description follows. 
19:00:18 <JAllan> kf: example, link with text and image (no alt in image)
19:00:54 <JAllan> ...the relationship is progammatically determinable because they are in the same anchor
19:01:40 <JAllan> ja: javascript blackhole should be brought up to CG
19:03:33 <JAllan> all: discussion of alt, WCAG 1.1.1, etc.
19:05:30 <JAllan> ja: where does lack of semantics go?
19:05:53 <kford> rrsagent, make minutes:
19:05:53 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes:', kford.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
19:06:05 <kford> rrsagent, make minutes
19:06:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/16-ua-minutes.html kford
19:06:17 <JAllan> jr: WCAG has conditions of conformance, ATAG has 'applicability notes' in the body of the document, they are normative
19:07:15 <JAllan> ... applicability note are listed at the top
19:09:07 <JAllan> jr: recommends UAWG read ATAG for applicability notes
19:09:23 <JAllan> kf: +1
19:10:15 <JAllan> js: use sparingly, easy for them to be separated from the other content, or other folks reuse the material
19:10:45 <Zakim> -kford
19:10:47 <Zakim> -KimPatch
19:12:27 <Zakim> -Jan
19:13:27 <JAllan> rrsagent, make minutes
19:13:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/16-ua-minutes.html JAllan
19:13:56 <JAllan> rrsagent, please part
19:13:56 <RRSAgent> I see no action items