14:45:46 RRSAgent has joined #lld 14:45:46 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/12/16-lld-irc 14:45:53 zakim, this will be lld 14:45:53 ok, emma; I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes 14:45:55 kcoyle has joined #lld 14:46:25 rrsagent, bookmark 14:46:25 See http://www.w3.org/2010/12/16-lld-irc#T14-46-25 14:46:43 Meeting: LLD XG 14:46:53 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Dec/0054.html 14:47:08 Chair: Emmanuelle 14:47:34 Previous: 2010-12-09 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/12/09-lld-minutes.html 14:48:28 Regrets: Gordon, Alex C, Jeff, Felix, Kim, Alex H, Monica, Joachim, Kai, Marcia, Martin 14:48:31 TomB has joined #lld 14:48:39 rrsagent, please make record public 14:55:05 INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has now started 14:55:14 rrsagent, please draft minutes 14:55:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/16-lld-minutes.html emma 14:55:14 + +33.1.53.79.aaaa 14:55:18 uldis has joined #lld 14:55:21 zakim, aaaa is me 14:55:21 +emma; got it 14:57:06 +[LC] 14:57:07 kefo has joined #lld 14:57:22 antoine has joined #lld 14:57:24 zakim, LC is me 14:57:24 +kefo; got it 14:57:26 zakim, LC is kefo 14:57:26 sorry, emma, I do not recognize a party named 'LC' 14:57:46 hi emma, i'm Uldis Bojars 14:57:51 zakim, mute me dude 14:57:51 I don't understand 'mute me dude', kefo 14:57:56 zakim, mute me 14:57:56 kefo should now be muted 14:58:01 +??P6 14:58:08 zakim, ??P6 is me 14:58:08 +antoine; got it 14:58:17 we talked on email that i should introduce me at the start of the telco -- but i have difficulty connecting to the telco phone line 14:58:20 zakim, who is here? 14:58:20 On the phone I see emma, kefo (muted), antoine 14:58:22 On IRC I see antoine, kefo, uldis, TomB, kcoyle, RRSAgent, Zakim, emma, danbri, edsu, digikim 14:58:32 rrsagent, please draft minutes 14:58:32 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/16-lld-minutes.html antoine 14:58:33 zakim, what time is it 14:58:33 I don't understand 'what time is it', kefo 14:59:03 rsinger has joined #lld 14:59:07 +??P8 14:59:16 Just curious what zakim knows and what he/she doesn't 14:59:23 zakim, ??P8 is kcoyle 14:59:23 +kcoyle; got it 14:59:30 LarsG has joined #lld 14:59:41 + +1.330.289.aabb 14:59:57 zakim, aabb is marcia 14:59:57 +marcia; got it 15:00:10 michaelp has joined #lld 15:00:11 +??P12 15:00:16 Marcia has joined #Lld 15:00:23 markva has joined #lld 15:00:24 zakim, ??p12 is TomB 15:00:24 +TomB; got it 15:00:25 zakim, ??P12 is TomB 15:00:25 I already had ??P12 as TomB, antoine 15:00:52 Zakim, mute me 15:00:52 marcia should now be muted 15:01:23 pmurray has joined #lld 15:01:28 + +49.613.692.aacc 15:01:29 + +1.423.463.aadd 15:01:46 zakim aacc is me 15:01:48 + +1.856.528.aaee 15:01:51 +[VrijeUni] 15:01:53 zakim, aadd is rsinger 15:01:53 +rsinger; got it 15:01:56 jodi has joined #LLD 15:02:00 zakim, aacc is me 15:02:00 +LarsG; got it 15:02:15 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:02:15 On the phone I see emma, kefo (muted), antoine, kcoyle, marcia (muted), TomB, LarsG, rsinger, [VrijeUni], +1.856.528.aaee 15:02:18 Zakim, VrijeUni is markva 15:02:20 +markva; got it 15:02:24 + +1.404.892.aaff 15:02:24 zakim, aaee is jodi 15:02:26 +jodi; got it 15:02:27 zakim, mute me 15:02:27 markva should now be muted 15:02:49 zakim, aaff is pmurray 15:02:49 +pmurray; got it 15:03:18 Scribe: Karen 15:03:28 scribenick: kcoyle 15:03:29 antoine: i promised to introduce myself to the group, but have difficulty connecting to the telco bridge. sorry that i won't be able to participate in voice, at least for the beginning of the call 15:03:54 +[IPcaller] 15:04:10 zakim, IPcaller is michaelp 15:04:10 +michaelp; got it 15:05:05 Marcia has joined #Lld 15:05:06 Topic: Administration 15:05:15 ksclarke has joined #lld 15:05:28 RESOLVED: Minutes accepted 15:05:58 No telecons for the next two weeks 15:06:09 Next call will be January 6, 2011 15:06:38 rayd has joined #lld 15:07:00 Topic: final report 15:07:05 +[LC] 15:07:06 zakim, LC is edsu 15:07:07 +edsu; got it 15:07:15 +[LC] 15:07:22 There is the lingering terminology issue that needs to be resolved 15:07:26 zakim, LC is rayd 15:07:26 +rayd; got it 15:07:59 -antoine 15:08:02 -marcia 15:08:06 proposed in cologne: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Dec/0005.html 15:08:48 zakim, unmute me 15:08:48 markva should no longer be muted 15:08:49 +??P10 15:08:55 PROPOSED : to adopt the terminology proposed in Cologne for the future draft repor 15:08:59 zakim, ??P10 is me 15:08:59 +antoine; got it 15:09:25 markva: data set refers to a third type of thing, such as sets of bib records 15:09:43 ... values int hose records would be value vocabularies 15:09:44 +1 to support http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2010Dec/0095.html, noting Antoine's reply at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2010Dec/0097.html 15:10:31 emma: antoine suggested 'reference data set' 15:11:16 Marcia has joined #Lld 15:11:22 antoine: some things like name authority are not thought of in the library world as vocabularies, but data sets 15:11:32 -michaelp 15:11:39 q+ 15:11:57 ack markva 15:12:03 +[IPcaller] 15:13:07 markva: antoine is talking about exceptions to markva's typology, but these exceptions do not make a difference 15:13:22 antoine: it's a question of scope 15:13:55 markva: 1- bib records, 2 - values used in those records from vocabularies, 3- properties and classes 15:14:15 ... 1 - data set, 2 value vocabularies 3 metadata set (?) 15:14:34 it's always about the exceptions though ;( 15:14:35 q+ to reinforce that these are being classified based on use - not an air-tight typology, as per Mikael http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2010Dec/0023.html 15:14:45 ack tom 15:14:45 TomB, you wanted to reinforce that these are being classified based on use - not an air-tight typology, as per Mikael 15:14:47 ... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2010Dec/0023.html 15:15:33 tomB: we want to come up with 3 intuitively recognizable concepts without expecting that things will fall neatly into a single category 15:15:34 Couldn't a dataset be seen as a combination/selection of entities from value and element vocabularies? 15:15:45 q+ forgot MARC relators 15:15:46 ... things could be used in different ways 15:16:18 zakim, mute me 15:16:18 markva should now be muted 15:16:33 q+ to support flexibility with MARC relators 15:16:59 ack antoine 15:16:59 antoine, you wanted to support flexibility with MARC relators 15:17:03 ... support distinction between data set and value vocabulary, even though some sets of URIs can be used in more than one way 15:17:27 antoine: there could be flexibility between group 1 and 2, such as marc relators 15:18:27 ... possible confusion in use of the term "value" -- some people have strong association with skosxl label 15:18:32 q+ 15:18:38 ack tom 15:19:12 tomB: we should not try to be more precise than: value vocab is a set of terms that are/may be used as values 15:19:23 ksclarke has left #lld 15:19:38 ... includes skos concepts and dcmi types 15:20:17 not sure if it's totally relevant, but danbri announced the Linked Datasets with the voiD Vocabulary w3c note which could provide some foundation for talking about "dataset": http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/semantic-web/2010Dec/0161.html 15:20:19 +1 for Mark's proposal 15:20:25 q+ 15:20:32 ack tom 15:20:39 discussing marks' summary: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2010Nov/0121.html 15:21:24 tomB: we agree that data models are not a special category, e.g. FRBR 15:21:46 q+ on possible dataset confusion? 15:21:59 ack antoine 15:21:59 antoine, you wanted to comment on possible dataset confusion? 15:22:54 antoine: ref. edsu link above, use of dataset is dangerous 15:23:03 q+ to ask whether element sets are also datasets? 15:23:17 emma: datasets are about instances of descriptions 15:23:34 is wondering whether both element sets and value vocabularies could be seen as datasets 15:23:34 hard to hear, typing in background 15:23:34 rsinger_ has joined #lld 15:23:59 ack tom 15:23:59 TomB, you wanted to ask whether element sets are also datasets? 15:24:05 emma: we are defining terms for our report, not other contexts 15:24:47 tomB: what is NOT a dataset? we could have element sets and value vocabularies and they are both datasets 15:25:08 ... dataset could be everything that isn't in the other 2 categories; dataset is the more general term 15:26:14 q+ 15:26:20 edsu: note talks about vocabularies; as per antoine, dataset is any triples, so it's very open 15:26:53 tomb: element set is data set, ed? 15:27:19 ack markva 15:28:03 markva: dataset is ambiguous; we should keep our audience in mind: librarians -- we want to communicate with them 15:28:37 zakim, mute me 15:28:37 markva should now be muted 15:28:39 'bibliographic dataset' is more restrictive, because librarians might see that as excluding archival data, say 15:28:56 emma: value vocabs, metadata data sets... these are data sets 15:29:22 emma: 3 defs: value vocabs, metadata sets, data set 15:30:06 zakim, unmute me 15:30:06 markva should no longer be muted 15:30:15 ACTION: Mark to add these definitions to the wiki page 15:30:17 edsu, this typology seems consistent with your point at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2010Nov/0101.html, where "element sets" = "RDF vocabulary" 15:30:23 zakim, mute me 15:30:23 markva should now be muted 15:30:38 RESOLVED: to use these three terms as defined in our report 15:30:42 q+ to suggest we discuss the definitions on a future call 15:30:49 ack tom 15:30:49 TomB, you wanted to suggest we discuss the definitions on a future call 15:31:10 q+ 15:31:15 tomB: put these defintions on future call 15:31:20 ack mark 15:31:20 zakim, unmute me 15:31:22 markva was not muted, markva 15:31:25 ack mark 15:31:34 q+ which terms? 15:31:37 i'm available 15:31:41 q+ to suggest that Mark post the definitions to the list, not just wiki page 15:31:48 great! 15:31:51 ack term 15:32:38 value vocabulary, metadata element set, dataset 15:32:41 RESOLVED: the three terms are: value vocabulary; metadata element set, and data set 15:32:42 zakim, mute me 15:32:42 markva should now be muted 15:32:53 ack tom 15:32:53 TomB, you wanted to suggest that Mark post the definitions to the list, not just wiki page 15:33:06 OK! 15:33:09 tombB: asks mark to also post the definitions to the list 15:33:26 topic: use cases 15:33:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/16-lld-minutes.html TomB 15:34:14 use case work is due by the end of December 15:34:43 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Cluster_BibData 15:35:02 Reporting on cluster work... created page and posted to mailing list 15:35:11 that was bib data cluster 15:35:37 No one here to report on authority data 15:36:11 Yes, we think so. 15:36:12 vocabulary alignment: will report in January 15:36:50 archive data: nothing new; probably will not finish by end of december 15:37:00 lol (on mute) 15:37:10 "it's always good to try" :-) 15:38:12 citation cluster: kai has been thinking about vcoabulary; essentially done 15:38:29 Agreed. I think the citation group is done for the moment. 15:38:58 not clear which action? 15:39:04 ACTION: Kai and Ed to curate citations cluster for end of December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action03] 15:39:10 --DONE 15:39:22 kai's diagram example: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Cluster_Citations#Illustrative_Example 15:40:01 unmute me 15:40:02 digital objects cluster: nothing to report 15:40:21 +??P22 15:40:31 zakim, mute me 15:40:31 markva was already muted, markva 15:40:31 Zakim, ??P22 is me 15:40:32 +uldis; got it 15:40:42 all cluster tasks continue 15:41:22 emma: there are now templates for the use case cluster pages to follow 15:41:58 TomB: no, not yet 15:42:10 Welcoming Uldis! 15:42:12 welcome, Uldis! 15:42:14 jar has joined #lld 15:42:25 q+ to ask about unclustered use cases + pending social uses 15:42:38 Working with national library of Latvia 15:43:35 Uldis's introduction: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Dec/0047.html 15:43:43 What cluster for Uldis? Any that are still ongoing. 15:43:44 ack jodi 15:43:44 jodi, you wanted to ask about unclustered use cases + pending social uses 15:44:04 jodi: there are several use cases that are not in clusters 15:44:40 zakim, who is noisy? 15:44:42 ... there are uses that not yet have use cases; should we have a miscellaneous cluster? 15:44:50 antoine, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: antoine (5%), TomB (58%), jodi (79%) 15:45:30 ... or add them to an existing cluster? 15:46:14 ... there are things we wanted to take into account, such as more social activities around bibliographic data, social uses of bib data 15:46:18 ... should we add these? 15:46:30 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/UseCaseNotes#Things_that_should_be_covered_by_use_cases ? 15:48:21 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Nov/0077.html 15:48:29 yes, antoine, that's what I'm referring to 15:48:57 the list email is what's http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/index.php?title=UseCaseNotes&oldid=2128 15:49:11 Zakim, mute me 15:49:11 rsinger should now be muted 15:49:14 q+ to ask about social web 15:49:18 emma: if there are missing use cases that were not covered in the f2f meeting, we need volunteers to contribute these use cases, but it needs to be done soon 15:49:22 ack antoine 15:49:22 antoine, you wanted to ask about social web 15:49:26 so, more specifically: Link Social Bibliography to a Bibliographic Network, Find stuff in several collections 15:49:34 and Find e-books see http://efoundations.typepad.com/efoundations/2010/07/finding-ebooks.html 15:49:51 so those are the 3 use cases I see in "social uses" 15:50:08 antoine: asking if Uldis was involved in social web incubator, and could take this on? 15:50:28 we also have 3 use cases that aren't clustered, here: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Cases#Not_yet_clustered: 15:50:46 of those, "using circulation data" could possibly go into "social uses" 15:51:28 problem is that we don't have use cases for these... use cases need to be written 15:51:29 what do the shepherds of those UCs think where they should go? Jodi, Gordon, William 15:51:49 uldis: would like to team up with someone to do this 15:51:59 Uldis, I'm happy to help with them 15:52:25 ACTION: Uldis and Jodi to create social uses cluster 15:53:06 emma: put a call on the list to ask others to contribute to these use cases 15:53:15 In terms of the not yet clustered, does 'digitized map archive' belong in heterogeneous data? 15:53:39 emma: unclustered cases... let's try to put them into existing clusters 15:54:27 circulation data is about what gets used. hard to know where to put it... 15:54:29 UC can also belong to several clusters; dont see problem with that 15:54:42 and library address data is different again 15:54:54 antoine: indeed. i own the 'digitized map archive' use case. though i am not certain which of existing clusters it fits best 15:54:54 topic: topics -- things other than use cases 15:55:17 -emma 15:55:24 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_SEO 15:55:32 ? 15:55:33 ACTION: Emma and Antoine to create use case DATA.SEARCH-OPTIMIZATION 15:55:36 -- DONE 15:55:38 sorry I've been kicked out !! 15:55:41 Did we loose our chair? 15:55:46 yes, we did lose you 15:55:53 s/loose/lose/ 15:55:53 shall we end? are we close enough? 15:55:58 captain overboard! 15:56:19 ah, a la' francais! 15:56:19 antoine, might you step in? 15:56:37 yes 15:56:40 yes 15:56:50 antoine is taking over to wrap up... 15:57:06 +emma 15:57:21 completed use case is unclustered 15:57:26 all other actions continue 15:58:09 emma: reminds us to update events page 15:58:33 this is our way of recording the outreach of the group 15:58:44 Call ends 15:58:56 see you next year! :) 15:59:00 bye 15:59:02 -pmurray 15:59:10 -rsinger 15:59:10 bye, happy new year to everyone! 15:59:15 happy holidays to everyone! :) 15:59:15 -kefo 15:59:16 jodi has left #LLD 15:59:19 -jodi 15:59:24 rrsagent, please draft minutes 15:59:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/16-lld-minutes.html antoine 15:59:24 -markva 15:59:26 -rayd 15:59:28 See you next year 15:59:34 michaelp has left #lld 15:59:36 -uldis 15:59:37 -LarsG 15:59:37 ack TomB 15:59:46 -michaelp 15:59:49 Bonne année :-D 15:59:58 zakim, please list attendees 15:59:59 -edsu 16:00:00 jar has left #lld 16:00:06 rrsagent, please draft minutes 16:00:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/16-lld-minutes.html emma 16:00:12 As of this point the attendees have been +33.1.53.79.aaaa, emma, kefo, antoine, kcoyle, +1.330.289.aabb, marcia, TomB, +49.613.692.aacc, +1.423.463.aadd, +1.856.528.aaee, rsinger, 16:00:19 ... LarsG, markva, +1.404.892.aaff, jodi, pmurray, michaelp, edsu, rayd, uldis 16:00:31 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/RunningAgenda 16:00:48 rrsagent, please draft minutes 16:00:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/16-lld-minutes.html antoine 16:02:37 uldis has left #lld 16:05:14 -kcoyle 16:05:53 -TomB 16:05:55 -antoine 16:05:55 -emma 16:05:56 INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has ended 16:05:58 Attendees were +33.1.53.79.aaaa, emma, kefo, antoine, kcoyle, +1.330.289.aabb, marcia, TomB, +49.613.692.aacc, +1.423.463.aadd, +1.856.528.aaee, rsinger, LarsG, markva, 16:06:00 zakim, bye 16:06:00 Zakim has left #lld 16:06:00 ... +1.404.892.aaff, jodi, pmurray, michaelp, edsu, rayd, uldis 16:06:13 rrsagent, bye 16:06:13 I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/16-lld-actions.rdf : 16:06:13 ACTION: Mark to add these definitions to the wiki page [1] 16:06:13 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/16-lld-irc#T15-30-15 16:06:13 ACTION: Kai and Ed to curate citations cluster for end of December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action03] [2] 16:06:13 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/16-lld-irc#T15-39-04 16:06:13 ACTION: Uldis and Jodi to create social uses cluster [3] 16:06:13 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/16-lld-irc#T15-52-25 16:06:13 ACTION: Emma and Antoine to create use case DATA.SEARCH-OPTIMIZATION [4] 16:06:13 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/16-lld-irc#T15-55-33