13:07:52 RRSAgent has joined #poiwg 13:07:52 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-irc 13:07:54 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:07:54 Zakim has joined #poiwg 13:07:56 Zakim, this will be UW_POI 13:07:56 "UW_POI" matches UW_POI(POIFF)8:30AM, and UW_POI(POIWG)9:00AM, trackbot 13:07:57 Meeting: Points of Interest Working Group Teleconference 13:07:57 Date: 15 December 2010 13:15:40 andy has joined #poiwg 13:15:52 good morning 13:29:24 alex__ has joined #poiwg 13:29:41 Ronald has joined #poiwg 13:30:29 * 13:31:23 danbri has joined #poiwg 13:32:28 -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Use_Cases Use Cases 13:33:11 Luca has joined #poiwg 13:35:11 -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core_Principles Core Principles 13:36:56 JonathanJ has joined #poiwg 13:37:50 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:37:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-minutes.html JonathanJ 13:41:22 Topic: Use Case Review 13:42:37 -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core_Scope Scope chart 13:42:43 Alex: is a search for rich content (entrance fee) part of POI or is it a web search 13:43:46 gary: rich content out of scope 13:44:20 gary: only add it as extensible, but don't make it part of the POI core. Principle 10 13:44:38 Alex: how is rich data facilitated 13:45:10 gary: extension mechanism. it is up to the content provider 13:45:56 gary: let's go over all use cases and see what's in scope and what is out 13:46:36 gary: getting really rich content is a specialised effort with high cost 13:47:23 alex__: all search use cases are out of scope 13:48:22 gary: historical pricing information is not part of the spec, but extension supports it 13:49:06 andy has joined #poiwg 13:50:00 matt: we should look at one or two use cases and describe how it would be done 13:50:32 alex__: thinks it is a useful exercise, but not for the F2F 13:50:57 andy: concerned on why to adopt the standard 13:51:14 gary: standard does not enforce the business model 13:51:30 karl: standard helps in aggregating data 13:52:23 alex__: in an AR browser like Layar will benifit from a standard 13:52:43 s/benifit/benefit/ 13:52:59 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:52:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-minutes.html matt 13:53:52 karl: categorization will be proprietary, but knowing what field contains the category helps in mapping 13:54:50 what is qdos? 13:54:50 gary: being the first to implement the W3C standard is good for your company 13:55:01 kudos 13:56:06 alex__: standardisation will help more people to create content 13:56:27 alex__: end value seems to lie in the extensibility, but we should not underestimate the power of the core 13:56:45 karl: separating of the location from the POI is useful 13:57:13 [[ I poked around looking for free/cheap YP databases, and I am distressed at how limited the data set is: ID, Categorie, SubCategorie, Name, Address, City, State, Postal Code, Phone, Fax.]] 13:57:40 gary: every current system embeds the location in the information, and it gave an editorial nightmare 13:57:48 s/gave/gives/ 13:58:19 gary: POIs are human artifacts and can change, but locations are static 13:59:19 gary: principles are good, but it will take effort to flesh out the primitives provided in the principles 13:59:43 gary: we have a skeleton of a draft recommendation, but we have a lot to flesh out to get the draft recommendation 14:00:12 -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Terminology Terminology 14:00:43 Gary has joined #poiwg 14:00:53 matt: lets review terminology page and check if it fits the things we discussed 14:01:30 gary: should be an action for post F2F to reflect the new reality we defined 14:01:53 andy: are we done with the use cases 14:01:53 ACTION: Gary to scrub wiki and terminology pages to reflect consensus notion of location and place terms 14:01:54 Created ACTION-23 - Scrub wiki and terminology pages to reflect consensus notion of location and place terms [on Gary Gale - due 2010-12-22]. 14:02:10 alex__: no, let's go over them all 14:02:41 alex__: location is broader than the current definition, it is any type of attribute to define the location 14:03:05 alex__: computer vision might be used to detect the an object and use that as the location 14:03:22 karl: is it a landmark that can be recognized? 14:03:47 alex__: yes, but we may not care about the location, but we know that the object is in front of the user 14:05:20 gary: instead of computer vision, can we call it proximity sensor, as that covers much more 14:05:38 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: A location may be a number of things, including: wgs84 coords, civic address, a vector with absolute or relative positioning, minimum bounding rectangle, unknown, a 3d model, or (?? computer vision stuff) 14:08:27 gary: is proximity something we should include? it does not specify the location 14:09:17 gary: if you just use proximity, you still don't know your location. all you know is that you are close 14:12:40 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: A Proximity Sensor is something that determines the location of something else relative to the sensor. 14:12:50 Gary: No, it doesn't tell you the location, just distance 14:13:04 alex__: That's maybe a technological limitation that you're carying. 14:13:08 Gary: I think it's out of scope. 14:15:43 matt: I think we are all comfortable with wgs84, even if it is getting updated next year, addresses, a pain in the neck, but understood, going down the list? 3d model? proximity sensor? How do we pick what those are and how we represent them? 14:17:09 matt: Can we say something like "proximity" rather than "proximity sensors"? e.g. standardize on "I am within X meters of Foo_POI and Y meters of Bar_POI and Z meters of Bang_POI" -- what those POIs are -- bluetooth sensors, whatever -- is irrelevant. 14:17:58 scribe: Matt 14:18:34 Gary: With RFID you're saying things like "this parcel is now in this warehouse" 14:18:44 Gary: I'm okay with relative location. 14:18:49 Ronald has joined #poiwg 14:19:11 alex__: I don't care, if you open that door. 14:20:16 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: A location may be a number of things, including: wgs84 coords, civic address, a vector with absolute or relative positioning, minimum bounding rectangle, unknown, 3d model, TBD relative location spec 14:20:28 matt: Is an MBR just two WGS84 coords? 14:20:56 Gary: In it's pure form it's a spatial box with minimal information. Always two opposite corners. Using a positioning coordinate system. 14:21:21 Gary: In this world it's typically two Cartesian points relative to WGS84. 14:21:44 kseiler: The footprint and MBR seem similar, MBR being a subset of footprint. 14:22:36 alex__: I was going to flesh out extents for this meeting. 14:23:05 cperey has joined #poiwg 14:23:10 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:23:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-minutes.html JonathanJ 14:23:27 alex__: Extent and location are related in that it's you can derive a location from MBR extent. 14:23:28 hello 14:23:32 Gary: sometimes it's all you have though. 14:23:45 alex__: The breakout may have real value though. 14:23:52 Gary: Extent I think is an attribute of location. 14:23:57 dialing into Zakim 14:24:25 zakim, dial matt-voip 14:24:25 sorry, matt, I don't know what conference this is 14:24:29 zakim, this is poiff 14:24:29 ok, matt; that matches UW_POI(POIFF)8:30AM 14:24:31 zakim, dial matt-voip 14:24:31 ok, matt; the call is being made 14:24:32 + +1.617.848.aaaa 14:25:02 zakim, dial matt-voip 14:25:02 ok, matt; the call is being made 14:25:03 - +1.617.848.aaaa 14:25:03 + +1.617.848.aaaa 14:25:04 +Matt 14:25:20 zakim, I am 617.848.aaaa 14:25:20 sorry, cperey, I do not see a party named '617.848.aaaa' 14:25:27 zakim, aaaa is cperey 14:25:27 +cperey; got it 14:25:36 zakim, who is speaking? 14:25:47 matt, listening for 11 seconds I could not identify any sounds 14:25:48 zakim, Matt is POIFF 14:25:49 +POIFF; got it 14:26:09 zakim, POIFF has Karl, Andy, Matt, Ronald, Luca, Jonathan, Gary, Alex 14:26:09 +Karl, Andy, Matt, Ronald, Luca, Jonathan, Gary, Alex; got it 14:26:12 zakim, who is speaking? 14:26:28 matt, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds 14:29:23 +q 14:29:38 yes! I hear you 14:29:51 I was listening! 14:30:21 cperey: I sent a message to the list saying it's sometimes absolute and sometimes relative. 14:30:24 ack next 14:31:16 location is a point in place. three dimensional world 14:31:30 can be absolute. can be relative and can be inferred 14:31:38 +1 on that last statement 14:31:46 alex__: Location is a point in space somewhere with an extent around 14:31:49 technologies which can be used to infer where you are from other data 14:31:52 Gary: They can be relative and infered. 14:32:06 used as a feedback cycle to verify the veracity of the data you have received 14:32:16 relative to some frame of reference 14:32:32 but you also have to have explicitly called out so that it is workable 14:32:58 if we start throwing around semantic terms such as relative, we will ignore it. Real world workable 14:33:35 gary says: sure, you could argue that location is a relative system, but include that it includes relative frames of reference to other points, potential, to oursevelves, to a device, or relatie to an adress 14:33:42 alex__: We need to codify that it can be relative to things via proximity, or relative like an address, or 100 meters from blue house. 14:34:05 as long as we agree that we have relative frames of reference... 14:34:24 alex__: While we're deep in location, let's talk about this notion of where is something. 14:34:44 alex__: The driveway to the McDonalds really matters, but some people would argue it's just part of going to McDonalds and it's just extra data. 14:34:48 Karl said (recapping) is this notion of where is something (discussion about driveway to McDonalds) is just a part of something ELSE, the "extra" data 14:35:16 alex__: How are we going to codify these things as they get more complex? 14:35:32 alex__: I say we associate them with further points of interest. 14:35:47 Alex feels we should go with basic principle that there is no short list...a POI is any place you would want to go 14:36:35 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: A location may be a number of things, including: wgs84 coords, civic address, a vector with absolute or relative positioning info, a minimum bounding rectangle, unknown, a 3d model w/wgs84 or TBD relative location spec, 14:37:04 Gary: Yesterday I tried to push name into location, but we decided location is where it is, everything else is in this other bag called place 14:37:10 s/Gary/Karl/ 14:37:29 Karl: Place is the bag for everything else: names, locations, ids, etc. 14:37:45 alex__: We think this method is maybe how increasing fidelity is dealt with. 14:38:11 alex__: It's a bit scary how much data there will be. 14:38:20 andy: Didn't we eliminate known or unknown? 14:38:27 s/known or// 14:38:52 karl: Maybe a business is forming, but has no location yet. Can it have a POI? 14:39:55 alex__: There's some semantics on pointers being null, whatever, but what's important here is if Alex's office is contained within the TSRB and it exists as a POI, is it okay that it's location is unspecified further. 14:40:38 alex__: Maybe it has no parent and has no location it has little value, but they exist. 14:41:16 andy: Example? 14:41:27 alex__: A welcome message. 14:41:58 this has a location, I simply don't know where it is at the moment 14:42:04 this was suggestion by Matt 14:42:13 still come back to the loosey goosey of the word POI 14:42:15 matt: I think there is value to having an "unknown" location rather than just no location. 14:42:38 place vs. stuff 14:43:04 karl: McDonalds a store vs McDonalds as a whole thing. One is a place the other isn't. 14:43:36 alex__: My car for instance, I can tell where it is until I'm in a tunnel. Then I could probably guess with low accuracy that I'm still on earth. Place seems a bit rigid. 14:44:27 alex__: A person, place, or thing -- there are extremes that make your hair stand up, but there are real things like OnStar trying to find my car, then there are places that might not have a known location. 14:45:10 Gary: I don't see why there isn't a way for people to create things from places that we've described here, but I think it's a minimal edge case. So minimal we should move on. No reason you can't do this, I would question why, and if you wanted to, you wouldn't call them places. 14:45:17 NO this is not all about places 14:45:40 that is a negative attitude 14:45:46 on the contrary 14:45:53 AR is very general topic 14:46:19 thank you, Alex 14:46:22 Gary: This is the POI working group, so we're about places. 14:46:33 matt: I see no reason why we shouldn't be working towards such a thing. 14:46:42 let's not hamstring to the point where people can't use it that way 14:46:46 we're not creating the theory of stuff 14:46:53 alex__: Let's not hamstring it so that it can't be done this way. 14:46:55 Gary: We're not creating ethereal stuff, we're agreeing on what a place is. 14:46:56 we're creating a workable definition of ... 14:47:16 Gary: We agreed on what a place is yesterday. 14:47:19 I didn't see that agreement 14:47:20 matt: I think unknown location is still key. 14:47:28 was it sent out to the list? 14:47:41 Gary: We have to have temporal and unknown locations sure. 14:48:06 Gary: We have to say the location is unspecified/unknown. 14:48:48 alex__: I want to make sure the door isn't slammed in the face of these esoteric use cases. 14:49:10 andy: I would prefer we didn't say they're esoteric, I think there's far more use cases for stuff than places. 14:49:19 Gary: But this isn't the stuff WG. 14:49:34 Gary: We're not here building a data model of everything in the world and their relationships. 14:50:02 andy: I think the movie poster is a POI and it has an unspecified location. 14:50:16 Gary: I'm saying it is too, but it has to explicitly have an unspecified location. If you make it optional -- 14:50:18 andy: I think that's fine. 14:50:28 alex__: The movie poster is in front of you, it is a location. 14:50:33 andy: It's just not important. 14:50:45 alex__: It is. Someone could walk in front of it and the information goes away. 14:51:07 +q 14:51:11 alex__: If you take out where it is, just recognize that there is a movie poster, then go to a website, that's not a POI. 14:51:33 alex__: POI is about where it exists in the world. 14:51:50 andy: The location advertising use case. 14:51:52 ack next 14:52:30 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:52:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-minutes.html JonathanJ 14:52:36 cperey: Wanted to suggest that if important things to go to the list please. 14:53:23 thanks matt :-) 14:53:24 andy: In location based advertising, pushed info or whatever, those have locations? 14:53:35 alex__: They do matter where you are. 14:53:44 this is exciting and I understand 100% 14:53:47 alex__: Those are about POIs definitely. 14:53:53 I would rather you SCRIBE 14:53:59 karl: What's the point? To drive you to the store front. 14:54:02 than pay attention to me 14:54:03 s/front./front?/ 14:54:17 gary: Geofence advertising is based on position, proximity and your movable point and radius. 14:54:55 gary: a geo-fence is not a place, it's a boundary trigger. 14:55:25 gary: What we're doing here with place intersects with boundary, and geo-fencing and boundaries intersect on the other side, but doesn't imply that geo advertising is part of place. 14:56:53 Gary: You may utilize a place based repository to figure out where the geo boundary occurs, e.g. these POIs for Arbys are here, and the geo-fence is therefore around them. 14:57:25 Gary: We said Chicago is a place, but it's an abstraction. I don't think you are going to stop people from creating abstract places with this spec. 14:57:54 Gary: But it doesn't mean it's part of geo based advertising. You can setup a fence without knowing the place: just the vector that describes it. 14:59:23 alex__: Is it unreasonable to have a Theater District described by this spec to then fire off a coupon? 14:59:39 Gary: Yes, but place is not fundamental to the concept of location based advertising. Place is just one tool to define a geofence. 15:00:20 alex__: If people use this spec for this, do we need some other construct to achieve that or can they use/abuse POI to do that? 15:00:33 Gary: You can create Karl's geofence. 15:01:15 Gary: Going back to small granular POIs: we can create a place for this table in this room, and you can say I'm going to derive a geofence from that place. That will fire whenever I'm within a foot of this table. I know it's a place, I know it's extent, I've got a vector that describes it's shape. 15:01:58 Gary: Within a meter, it sets off a coupon or whatever. But as an advertiser, I can make a vector trace somehow [walks around table], I don't need the table to create it, the table is just a stepping stone. 15:02:16 Gary: One is a tool to create the other. 15:03:11 Gary: The point is you can have a geofence without a place. 15:03:55 Gary: Most geotargetted advertising looks at say, newspaper press zones and those zones have these zips, and then aggregate those together and make the vector and then target those. 15:04:54 haha!! funny 15:05:02 what has happened? 15:05:28 Hi Matt 15:05:36 can you take me off speaker so I can speak with you? 15:14:59 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:14:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-minutes.html JonathanJ 15:19:33 [[Walking through Informational Use Cases]] 15:19:44 -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Use_Cases#Informational 15:19:48 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:19:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-minutes.html matt 15:20:27 -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Use_Cases#Augmented_Reality AR Use Cases 15:20:48 alex__: People mention XMPP, but I don't see anything that changes to our data format based on transport. 15:20:51 Ronald: Agreed. 15:21:11 -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Use_Cases#B2B B2B use cases 15:21:35 alex__: Sounds like this is a use case for richer names? 15:21:47 Gary: Sounds like a specialization/expansion of the name primitive. 15:23:01 Andy: Text strings much have language code. 15:23:22 matt: xml:lang? 15:23:29 Gary: No, the ISO code. 15:24:05 -> http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/bcp/bcp47.txt Language codes from IETF 15:24:24 Gary: I would say any text field is UTF-8 and the text is an aggregate structure of text and language code. 15:25:42 karl: I think we're fleshing out what the name primitive is. 15:25:50 karl: I think we should also consider a label. 15:26:02 I like label, but express that as a "trigger" 15:26:04 +q 15:26:27 karl: Common name, etc, different names for the same thing. 15:26:53 alex__: I was assuming from the get go that name would subsume that. That we don't need another field for that sort of thing. 15:26:59 karl: Name consists of a UTF string plus a language code and a label. 15:27:20 Gary: Normalized form of the address could be used to populate the name primitive. 15:27:36 is this an IETF classification code topic? 15:28:51 Ronald has joined #poiwg 15:29:01 I want to wait until I have the floor :-/ 15:29:11 Gary:180 Lunvaden Straße and 180 Lunvaden Strasse and 180 Lunvaden Str are all the same thing. 15:29:44 karl: We need the name, the language code, and then there are all sorts of vanity addresses that exist. 15:30:04 ack next 15:30:54 Gary: There are all sorts of valid names, maybe we need a textual primitive, a unicode text string together with the language code that is then used. 15:31:06 It's Invalidenstraße by the way :-) 15:34:08 andy has joined #poiwg 15:35:26 alex__: If a POI establishes that there is something at a location, or somewhere, it has an extent, I might bump into it or say something to it or whatever. So, what defines the interactivity between me and it. A div on a website that's clicked for instance is a trigger. So what's the trigger mechanism between my behavior and POIs? 15:35:42 alex__: I think that Christine was saying that there be some linkage between the name/label and triggers. 15:35:45 Yes, I was asking if there 15:35:47 is a connection 15:36:03 we need to consider the I18N(Internationalization) of POI. Ref: http://www.w3.org/International/ 15:36:16 but a little bit no! 15:36:22 Gary: Isn't that an application level thing? 15:36:28 alex__: It's on the borderline of being out of scope. 15:36:41 if you define a label/extensions, then you have to be able to use the extensions 15:36:58 alex__: There's extensions and extensibility for things down the line for AR, but it's not obvious to me that it needs to be built in. 15:37:08 Gary: That seems like a business specific specialization. 15:37:53 Gary: Does this trigger metadata be part of the place itself? It's one way you'd facilitate discovery of the data based on this, but it is but one of a multitude of business specific specializations. It could almost be a use case. 15:38:44 alex__: On one hand it sounds like geofencing. There's information within a POI that would facilitate that, but there is also other information that may help. There's a tacit implication that the discovery will come from things like a geospatial search. The notion of a trigger could get more rich down the line. 15:39:03 alex__: Imagine a future where a proximity searched doesn't matter, but what I can see is the search. 15:39:07 karl: That's not even the future. 15:39:15 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:39:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-minutes.html matt 15:39:40 alex__: We should consider whether what we're putting forward can handle that. Right now I'm inclined to say it can. 15:40:02 Matt I need to change phones. I'll hang up and dial back in 15:40:03 alex__: If only information a POI has is lat/lng coordinates, you can't do that type of search, but with richer info you can do different types of searches. 15:44:16 -cperey 15:45:36 OK matt 15:45:39 are you ready? 15:45:55 BTW, I stayed on line and heard the discussion between Alex and Gary 15:46:34 +cperey 15:46:36 -cperey 15:46:36 +cperey 15:46:52 point to someone else for what? 15:46:57 andy has joined #poiwg 15:47:01 address representation 15:47:12 that sounds important for me to have heard 15:47:35 will those standards bodies be at the International AR Standards meeting in Feb? 15:47:47 IETF 15:47:56 they have 50 fields 15:48:21 complicated, GeoLocation WG decided on 12 fields 15:51:47 If I ask for POI and I get back a string, I get the POI from the string, I have to hand it off to a service to do anything with it 15:51:57 if , at that data exchange level, have we created enough? 15:52:11 we (NOkia) have to GeoCode official address and relative addresses 15:53:45 you are telling me rightnow, if I have a normalized text string, there's enough information in that. 15:53:59 there's some service which I can start talking to to get more detailed informatoin (Alex) 15:54:10 is that Karl? 15:54:12 or who? 15:54:18 yes 15:54:22 karl 15:54:31 Alex: when you say preferred service you mean, what exactly? 15:54:58 Alex: this is a big issue. I have some data. Now I want more, what do I do? 15:55:10 Alex: I got a POI, great, but I really want more...What happens? 15:55:24 Karl: we had it at too high a level. You want URIs for ??? 15:55:32 chop chop (can't hear) 15:55:44 who is scribing? 15:56:11 thanks matt 15:56:13 karl: I'm trying to get in the spec a URI primitive so that someone can attach a service to a piece of data. 15:56:25 alex__: Other bodies must have tackled this issue. 15:56:45 cperey agrees with alex_ 15:57:02 Gary: Isn't this the same problem as going to the post office and you end up shoe-horning another countries address format into the form? I appreciate the sentiment, but isn't it meaningless except to other implementors who implement it the same way. 15:57:21 karl: I was thinking every primitive could have a URI attached to it. 15:57:46 karl: All of the primitives have an URI, and then when looking at an address you could use the URI to render that address. 15:57:53 karl: (render, geocode, whatever) 15:57:54 +1 15:58:13 karl: You give this URI the address and I'll give you a fully extricated location. 15:58:29 alex__: I give you a link for say a car, and you could use a URI to find where the car is? 15:58:52 karl: It's like the category primitive. You could get more info about it when using the URI. 15:59:40 alex__: My hesitancy is similar to my hesitancy to adding timestamps. It's a potential explosion of the data model. I agree whole heartedly with the notion, but I hope we can find a more succinct way than tacking on all over the place. 15:59:55 karl: I have the same comment on ID. What is it? 15:59:58 I"m signing off 16:00:01 bye 16:00:04 In Korea, we are developing a spec for one of idea that like the Physical Object Identifier 16:00:05 -cperey 16:00:11 zakim, drop me 16:00:11 sorry, matt, I do not see a party named 'matt' 16:00:15 zakim, drop POIFF 16:00:15 POIFF is being disconnected 16:00:16 UW_POI(POIFF)8:30AM has ended 16:00:17 Attendees were +1.617.848.aaaa, cperey, Karl, Andy, Matt, Ronald, Luca, Jonathan, Gary, Alex 16:00:39 zakim, aaaa was cperey 16:00:39 I don't understand 'aaaa was cperey', matt 16:00:45 zakim, aaaa is cperey 16:00:45 sorry, matt, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa' 16:01:19 andy: Would each bit have a uri? 16:01:21 karl: Yes. 16:01:24 matt: Sounds like RDF. 16:01:26 karl: Yes. 16:01:37 alex__: We're a bit under-represented for experts in some of this stuff. 16:02:44 matt: Lots of participants that will help us. We can also get it out for review... 16:02:50 our idea of Physical Object Identifier, like URN - http://bit.ly/i7DTK4 16:02:52 alex__: Tidy this up now? 16:14:59 ok 16:19:15 Chair: Andy 16:19:40 Present: Karl, Andy, Matt, Ronald, Luca, Jonathan, Gary, Alex, Christine 16:19:44 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:19:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-minutes.html matt 16:20:28 i/Scope chart/Scribe: Ronald/ 16:20:35 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:20:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-minutes.html matt 16:28:41 Topic: Document Drafting 16:28:52 andy: The principles are the starting point for now. 16:29:02 alex__: Summarize what we've talked about in the principles. 16:30:04 matt: There's no fixed format beyond the header, Status of the Document section, ToC and references. I'm happy to work on it in a wiki and then I'll turn it into a spec looking doc. 16:30:36 karl: In the full doc, will we have the principles, the use cases, etc? 16:30:47 s/etc/data model, etc/ 16:30:55 andy: Those things, maybe use cases are in there. 16:31:32 alex__: What's the name? 16:31:49 matt: POI Core Recommendation 16:31:56 alex__: And do these have the use cases in them typically? 16:32:14 matt: Some times in the doc, sometimes separate Note, sometimes just a web page that's referenced. 16:32:23 karl: We can have them, put them in an appendix, whatever. 16:32:37 alex__: We can have examples that demonstrate a typical use case that we'd have. 16:32:47 alex__: i.e. a typical POI with a wgs84 location, name, etc. 16:33:58 Gary: How do we document the data model with examples unless we chose some normalized XML schema that we knock together. 16:34:16 alex__: We're not going to XML out an example today. 16:35:41 alex__: We agree there's an example section. 16:36:17 andy has joined #poiwg 16:36:53 minutes will be replaced by live wiki updates 16:43:19 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:43:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-minutes.html JonathanJ 17:19:47 andy has joined #poiwg 18:04:21 Zakim has left #poiwg 18:23:29 [[Discussion about what serialization we'll have, whether we should rely on XML, IDL, etc, or refer to those in normative appendicies as serializations]] 18:27:41 \me pong 18:28:13 s/\me pong// 18:33:49 Demo Link: http://x3dom.org/x3dom/example/flar/x3dom_flar.html 18:33:49 draft of AR Landscape : http://bit.ly/hgjzU7 18:33:49 Today's presentation file: http://www.w3c.or.kr/~hollobit/presentation/20101215-W3C-hollobit-r1.pdf 18:53:54 Topic: AR landscape 18:54:11 [[Jonathan presents demo and slides]] 18:54:24 matt: I think we'd like people to volunteer to help. 18:54:40 Ronald: I can fill in some information about the European offerings. 18:54:43 alex__: I can contribute too. 18:55:12 alex__: The AR Tagging struck me as specific. 18:55:28 alex__: You could imagine AR balloons, or new construction, or a tweet over your head. 18:55:36 s/AR Tag/Air Tag/ 18:55:47 alex__: Maybe something a bit more generic than Air Tagging, like "user generated content" 18:55:54 alex__: Addressing user interaction -- UI is a big issue. 18:56:26 alex__: Some capabilities discovery needed -- processing power to run FLAR type stuff. 18:56:54 alex__: I would point you at a paper we submitted to ISMAR that wasn't accepted. I can send that to you. 18:57:17 alex__: I think it is valuable for someone to survey the existing technologies. 18:57:27 alex__: Not a big list: feature tracking, marker tracking, GPS tracking. 18:57:38 Ronald: What does it support on those levels? 18:58:06 alex__: That's useful, but to me the interesting part is how people author this? How do they describe what they want to do? Is it interoperable? 18:58:47 alex__: We need AR to become something like the Web, where I can put up content and people will be able to consume it. 18:58:56 Ronald: I think the survey should focus on those aspects. 18:59:13 Ronald: I'm not sure how FLAR or marker based AR fits in. Are you going to put them all into one class? 18:59:31 Ronald: Or are you really targeting the platforms, the browsers, those with lots of content? 19:00:03 alex__: When I saw the demo at the AR Standards workshop it was on a handheld. The X3D stuff seems oriented towards making this work on mobile devices. 19:00:25 alex__: A lot of the conversation with Khronos involved low level device protocols. 19:00:43 alex__: Nokia had a camera spec, etc. 19:01:00 alex__: There is this whole stack from low level to high. 19:01:12 Ronald: Important for us to look at these initiatives. 19:01:23 Ronald: There's lots of platforms that would benefit from such a standard. 19:01:49 alex__: When we're looking at AR here, are we talking mobile or desktop? 19:01:54 JonathanJ: No, AR on the Web 19:04:19 alex__: Standardization will be coming from the mobile direction, rather than HMDs, desktops, etc. 19:04:26 Ronald: Agreed, and we'd definitely help support this. 19:05:37 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:05:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-minutes.html matt 19:06:00 Ronald has joined #poiwg 19:06:27 Topic: Next Steps 19:06:35 Luca has joined #poiwg 19:06:52 andy: Next teleconference is 5 January. 19:06:54 andy: Next face to face location? 19:06:58 andy: Western Europe? 19:07:38 Gary: I could look at hosting in Berlin. 19:07:57 matt: Just want to establish that next TPAC is November in North America, do we want to do some rotation? 19:08:15 andy: Maybe first week of April? 19:08:55 ACTION: Andy to propose next F2F April in Berlin 19:08:56 Created ACTION-24 - Propose next F2F April in Berlin [on Andrew Braun - due 2010-12-22]. 19:11:00 matt: Sounds like we'll meet at TPAC. 19:11:14 gary: I think if we meet again in March we'll be pretty much there and ready to close in November. 19:11:19 s/gary/Karl/ 19:11:57 Gary: One in Berlin in March/April, another in November in N. America, and maybe survey the mailing list for one in between with the summer vacation caveat. 19:12:58 Gary: Maybe get people to detail their commitments, so we can narrow down dates, e.g. Nokia World, Web 2.0, etc. 19:13:23 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:13:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-minutes.html matt 19:14:49 Andy: Meeting Adjourned! 19:14:54 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:14:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-minutes.html matt