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19:59:41 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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19:59:43 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
19:59:43 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
19:59:44 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
19:59:44 <trackbot> Date: 09 December 2010
20:01:49 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2010OctDec/0209.html
20:01:52 <tbah> tbah has joined #svg
20:01:52 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:00PM has now started
20:01:59 <Zakim> +??P0
20:02:01 <heycam> Zakim, ??P0 is me
20:02:01 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
20:02:04 <adrianba> adrianba has joined #svg
20:02:28 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
20:02:45 <adrianba> zakim, [Microsoft] has adrianba, pdengler
20:02:45 <Zakim> +adrianba, pdengler; got it
20:02:53 <Zakim> +??P2
20:03:04 <ed> Zakim, ??P2 is me
20:03:04 <Zakim> +ed; got it
20:03:11 <Zakim> + +39.537.7.aaaa
20:04:18 <Zakim> +Shepazu
20:05:40 <adrianba> ScribeNick: adrianba
20:05:46 <adrianba> Scribe: Adrian Bateman
20:05:54 <adrianba> Chair: Erik Dahlstrom
20:06:02 <adrianba> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2010OctDec/0209.html
20:06:18 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #svg
20:06:33 <adrianba> ed: agenda is short, agreed on the last telcon to focus on 1.1
20:06:40 <adrianba> ...need to see what progress we've made
20:06:50 <adrianba> TOPIC: SVS 1.1F2 progress
20:06:52 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Full_11#Remaining_work_for_SVG1.1F2
20:07:14 <adrianba> ed: if we could go through the list from top to bottom
20:07:22 <Zakim> +ChrisL
20:07:36 <ed> ISSUE-2339?
20:07:36 <trackbot> ISSUE-2339 -- Last Call Comment: definition of azimuth, elevation for feDistantLight -- open
20:07:36 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2339
20:07:36 <adrianba> ISSUE-2339?
20:07:37 <trackbot> ISSUE-2339 -- Last Call Comment: definition of azimuth, elevation for feDistantLight -- open
20:07:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2339
20:07:58 <adrianba> heycam: anthony said he'd get to this later today
20:08:09 <adrianba> ed: think this is one that i think i wrote tests for but not sure
20:08:22 <adrianba> ...might be one we can put in and not have a test ready for initial testing phase
20:08:35 <adrianba> ...okay, so progress on that one
20:08:39 <adrianba> ISSUE-2334?
20:08:39 <trackbot> ISSUE-2334 -- Last Call Comment: filter primitive subregion and feGaussianBlur, feTile and infinite filter input images -- raised
20:08:39 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2334
20:09:08 <adrianba> ed: this one i've been working on a bit today, i commited some changes for the second half to clarify
20:09:34 <adrianba> ...the first part is not yet addressed but we have an agreement on how it will be resolved and i started with some tests to see what implementations are doing at the moment
20:09:36 <pdengler> pdengler has joined #svg
20:09:41 <adrianba> ...this is one i think we will need tests for
20:09:53 <adrianba> ...i don't want to put something in the spec before i have something ready in tests
20:10:14 <adrianba> heycam: so you'll be able to do this tomorrow?
20:10:20 <adrianba> ed: yes, that's my plan
20:10:24 <adrianba> ISSUE-2335?
20:10:24 <trackbot> ISSUE-2335 -- Last Call Comment: Clarify feConvolveMatrix bias property -- raised
20:10:24 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2335
20:10:52 <adrianba> ed: i had an action and so did anthony - my action is closed because i think anthony's to put in the wording, he has been following up on this to get agreement
20:11:00 <adrianba> ...i saw a new test was added on this
20:11:16 <adrianba> ACTION: ed to review the test for ISSUE-2335
20:11:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2919 - Review the test for ISSUE-2335 [on Erik Dahlström - due 2010-12-16].
20:11:42 <adrianba> ed: not sure if this is the one anthony said he commited changes to the spec
20:12:00 <adrianba> ...yeah, think this is one of them
20:12:22 <adrianba> ISSUE-2338?
20:12:22 <trackbot> ISSUE-2338 -- Last Call Comment: type of feFunc* -- raised
20:12:22 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2338
20:12:39 <adrianba> tav: it's done
20:12:56 <adrianba> ed: marked that one as being done in tracker
20:13:09 <adrianba> heycam: does it have all the comments for disposition of comments?
20:13:17 <adrianba> ed: yes, when we do the extraction of tracker it will be okay
20:13:39 <adrianba> ...but we need to go through the remaining issues and ensure they have the notes but we can leave that for now
20:13:49 <adrianba> heycam: does this need to be done in time for the publication?
20:14:09 <adrianba> chrisl: that needs to be done before the transition request?
20:14:21 <adrianba> heycam: does the transition involve a phone call?
20:14:26 <adrianba> chrisl: yes
20:14:46 <adrianba> heycam: we haven't planned for that and if the pub deadline is wednesday we need to that before
20:15:04 <adrianba> chrisl: we need to show we've exited LC and CR - could be one meeting to do both
20:15:25 <adrianba> shepazu: that'll be team contact and maybe the chairs and the director and domain lead
20:15:50 <adrianba> ...probably plh, ralph and either chris and/or doug
20:16:00 <adrianba> ...probably won't be able to schedule at this stage
20:16:25 <adrianba> chrisl: we need to go to the chairs and there needs to be notice for people to object if they feel comments not dealt with
20:16:32 <adrianba> heycam: that's unfortunate
20:16:44 <adrianba> shepazu: we won't be able to publish but we can do all the other steps
20:16:48 <adrianba> heycam: okay
20:16:57 <adrianba> shepazu: so we'll publish in early january
20:17:52 <ChrisL> 31 January, in answer to the question
20:17:54 <adrianba> ed: think we should aim for both disposition of comments and implementation report before christmas then
20:17:56 <ChrisL> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2010OctDec/0003.html
20:18:07 <adrianba> heycam: think that's feasible because working hard we would have met the wednesday deadline
20:18:19 <adrianba> ed: aiming for something earlier helps to get done
20:18:35 <adrianba> heycam: if we have an extra couple of weeks then we might consider fixing other things in the tests
20:18:53 <adrianba> chrisl: would much rather see people running this sooner so we have a feel for where we are
20:19:04 <adrianba> ...we don't know how many tests we have where no one passes yet
20:19:27 <adrianba> ISSUE-2343?
20:19:27 <trackbot> ISSUE-2343 -- Last Call Comment: 15.12 Filter primitive ‘feComposite’ formula -- raised
20:19:27 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2343
20:19:27 <ChrisL> we can easily run spot rechecks as needed for tests where we find bugs
20:19:49 <adrianba> ed: this one was done - not sure if the issue itself was updated
20:20:21 <adrianba> ...yeah, we still need approval of response
20:20:40 <adrianba> heycam: is there a minimum amount of time we need to give commenters to respond?
20:20:59 <ChrisL> well, a reasonable time. some days typically
20:21:03 <adrianba> ed: i don't think the remaining issues are that hard to resolve
20:21:32 <adrianba> ed: not sure if new tests are needed - we can work this out in the coming days
20:21:55 <adrianba> ...we'll ask anthony if there are new tests needed, seems mostly clarifications
20:21:59 <adrianba> ISSUE-2346?
20:21:59 <trackbot> ISSUE-2346 -- Last Call Comment: previous discussion about filterRes -- raised
20:21:59 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2346
20:22:02 <adrianba> ed: i've closed this
20:22:05 <adrianba> ISSUE-2351?
20:22:05 <trackbot> ISSUE-2351 -- Last Call Comment: Clarify that units are required on <length>s in style attribute; fix examples in text. -- closed
20:22:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2351
20:22:18 <adrianba> ed: i didn't close the issue - not 100% if done
20:22:22 <adrianba> tav: yes, it was done
20:22:26 <adrianba> ed: okay, i'll close then
20:24:17 <adrianba> ed: we should keep issues open so we can more easily extract them
20:24:34 <adrianba> ISSUE-2364?
20:24:34 <trackbot> ISSUE-2364 -- Last Call Comment: SVG 1.1 may be ambiguous about the root element acting as a proximal event target -- raised
20:24:34 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2364
20:25:04 <adrianba> shepazu: i'm working on this one - apparently svg doesn't use the term hit-testing so looking at a definition for that
20:25:17 <adrianba> ...not done yet but i expect to have submitted it to cvs today and be ready for review
20:25:26 <adrianba> heycam: who's comment was it?
20:25:39 <adrianba> shepazu: there were several - not sure if it was a last call issue - don't think it was
20:26:00 <adrianba> ...came about because of discussion after last call about whether the svg root should intercept pointer events
20:26:09 <adrianba> ...two different contexts, inline or embedded by reference
20:26:10 <ChrisL> Cam, see http://www.w3.org/2010/09/SVG1.1SE-LastCall/ for the modified disco.xsl and some sparse documentation in getxml.html
20:26:20 <adrianba> heycam: so what were the decisions?
20:27:21 <adrianba> shepazu: the interaction section mixes a bunch of things including action processing order and we decided that we were going to clarify the section on ui events
20:27:38 <adrianba> heycam: not sure if we have tests for this
20:28:01 <adrianba> shepazu: we probably don't but not sure if the changes i am making will result in tests, probably but i haven't looked to see if there are tests yet
20:28:09 <adrianba> ...i need to make sure there are tests that do check this
20:28:21 <adrianba> heycam: there are 3 tests that may be testing something around here
20:28:46 <adrianba> ISSUE-2368?
20:28:46 <trackbot> ISSUE-2368 -- Problems with grammars for numbers -- raised
20:28:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2368
20:30:33 <heycam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2010OctDec/0191.html
20:30:42 <adrianba> heycam: i couldn't see who was the original commentor - the issue was that the grammar for the points production for polygon and polyline; if you don't use a . in the number you are required to use an exponent
20:31:06 <adrianba> ...think it's because floating point and integers are separate and if you only look at the fp production then you might think integers are missed out
20:31:15 <adrianba> ...but if you take them both together then it's fine
20:31:24 <adrianba> ...waiting for feedback
20:31:28 <adrianba> ISSUE-2384?
20:31:28 <trackbot> ISSUE-2384 -- Order of rx / ry computation for rounded rects -- raised
20:31:28 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2384
20:31:50 <adrianba> pdengler: i think the clarification makes sense - it's ambiguous without it
20:32:00 <adrianba> ...we should update the tests but we don't know if we'll be able to fix it on our side
20:32:22 <adrianba> heycam: do you agree with the proposed fix but don't have time to fix?
20:32:25 <adrianba> pdengler: yes
20:32:34 <adrianba> heycam: will you be able to fix in the future?
20:32:41 <adrianba> pdengler: we'd want to get to it, yes
20:32:46 <adrianba> heycam: think it's an edge case
20:32:59 <adrianba> ed: yeah, it won't be noticeable to most people and it's possible to work around
20:33:04 <adrianba> pdengler: true
20:33:28 <adrianba> ACTION: heycam to add the wording and fix the test for ISSUE-2384
20:33:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2920 - Add the wording and fix the test for ISSUE-2384 [on Cameron McCormack - due 2010-12-16].
20:33:46 <adrianba> ISSUE-2391?
20:33:46 <trackbot> ISSUE-2391 -- Last Call Comment: better changes appendix -- raised
20:33:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2391
20:34:23 <adrianba> chrisl: going through all the logs to find all the changes since last publication is taking time
20:34:43 <adrianba> heycam: is this something you're part way through?
20:35:03 <adrianba> chrisl: not started yet, don't know if anyone has updated the appendix and should be able to start again
20:35:16 <adrianba> pdengler: when we last looked it hadn't been updated
20:35:32 <adrianba> chrisl: have to go through the CVS change log and read the diff and summarise the change
20:35:52 <adrianba> ...yes, you can pick the starting point
20:36:28 <adrianba> ...we got a comment saying the changes appendix needs to be better, for the patent policy we need the list of changes from the last time we published
20:36:40 <adrianba> ...because any new features added after LC doesn't get covered
20:36:53 <adrianba> ...so we need to show no new features were added and just clarifications
20:37:18 <adrianba> ...that part is fine but the 'better' appendix is more work
20:37:40 <adrianba> ...the current version is less detailed than what was asked for in the comment
20:38:06 <adrianba> ...to turn it into a reference for someone that knows the orginal edition and want to just know what has changed
20:38:15 <adrianba> ...we pushed it back to the commenter
20:38:23 <adrianba> ...but they haven't got to it
20:38:31 <adrianba> ed: i dealt with the other two remaining issues
20:38:44 <adrianba> ...is there anything else we need to do with the spec that isn't listed here?
20:39:14 <adrianba> heycam: i remember noticing at one stage that the style for the dom method summaries was looking good in some browsers but not in others
20:39:31 <adrianba> ...i want to make sure it looks alright in most browsers - just a one off quick check at the end when we're ready
20:39:47 <adrianba> ed: just trying to make sure we don't have any surprises, that's all
20:39:53 <adrianba> TOPIC: Test Suite
20:40:02 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Full_11#Testsuite_issues
20:40:20 <adrianba> ed: tried to keep track of issues on this wiki page
20:40:23 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/harness/htmlObjectMiniApproved
20:40:42 <adrianba> ...one thing to note is that i have only kept this one updated and only contains the tests we have accepted
20:40:54 <adrianba> the other harnesses include draft tests including some not reviewed
20:41:02 <adrianba> s/the other/...the other/
20:41:12 <adrianba> ...this is the official one for the implementation reports
20:41:24 <adrianba> heycam: does this mean we won't have new accepted tests?
20:41:44 <adrianba> ed: i think we have to be open to accept some new ones or possibly dropping tests back to draft
20:41:57 <adrianba> ...don't think it's possible to say until we've done the testing and see where we are
20:42:12 <adrianba> ...it may show issues we've missed - i think this harness and the tests are in good shape
20:42:25 <adrianba> ...and it's useful to run the tests and learn about any issues left to fix
20:42:37 <adrianba> heycam: i think there are only a couple that need changes
20:42:55 <adrianba> ...99% of the tests are fine regardless of any ambiguities in the pass criteria
20:43:03 <ChrisL> Updated the disposition of comments - http://www.w3.org/2010/09/SVG1.1SE-LastCall/dump.html
20:43:12 <adrianba> ...so i agree we can do the run through and if there are substantial changes to the tests we can run those individually
20:43:40 <adrianba> chrisl: there was a discussion of bidi include testing arabic - was testing two things
20:43:55 <adrianba> ...so i made it like the 1.2 test that was simpler
20:43:56 <heycam> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/imagePatches/text-intro-06-t.png
20:44:29 <adrianba> heycam: because i wasn't sure if the test required a particular font i couldn't tell if it was a font problem
20:44:50 <adrianba> chrisl: the reference images should be good references with the right font
20:46:08 <adrianba> ed: regarding bidi and text anchor we made clarifications in 1.2 and we need to bring this back so the specs are compatible
20:46:09 <tbah> tbah has joined #svg
20:47:07 <adrianba> chrisl: 1.1 1st edition had some well meaning but incorrect text 
20:47:18 <adrianba> ed: chrisl, will you do the back porting?
20:47:28 <adrianba> chrisl: i could look at this, do you know where it is?
20:47:46 <adrianba> ed: i sent mail to the list with the change list - it's multiple changes but should be able to figure it out
20:48:05 <adrianba> ACTION: chrisl to bring the 1.2 changes for bidi and text anchor back to the 1.1 spec
20:48:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2921 - Bring the 1.2 changes for bidi and text anchor back to the 1.1 spec [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-12-16].
20:48:47 <adrianba> heycam: as part of this will you look at the tests?
20:49:20 <adrianba> chrisl: i started this by simplifying the tests, made some new tests that used a WOFF font (unapproved)
20:49:34 <adrianba> ...it's there so eventually we can have better tests without having to download and install fonts
20:49:52 <adrianba> chrisl: -06, -11, and -12
20:50:14 <adrianba> ... -06 was the only approved one, the others won't be in the implementation report - just so we remember
20:50:20 <adrianba> heycam: does -06 require woff?
20:50:40 <adrianba> chrisl: no, it still uses platform font, just simplifies by only looking for mandatory ligature
20:51:48 <adrianba> pdengler: on textintro-01, i got lost looking at the test on the site
20:52:13 <adrianba> ...is it that the reference images haven't been regenerated?
20:52:24 <adrianba> chrisl: this is -06 we're talking about
20:52:45 <adrianba> ...i've checked in a ref image sitting in the image patches directory but someone is going to have to run the build scripts for the harness
20:52:59 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/harness/htmlObjectMiniApproved/text-intro-01-t.html
20:53:52 <adrianba> heycam: comparing -01 and -04, not sure why there is combining in one and not the other
20:54:49 <adrianba> ACTION: chrisl to fix the text-intro-04 test with feedback that has been around a little while
20:54:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2922 - Fix the text-intro-04 test with feedback that has been around a little while [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-12-16].
20:54:55 <ChrisL> ARJ> In the Yiddish example, U+05D0 HEBREW LETTER ALEF is followed by U+05B8
20:54:55 <ChrisL> ARJ> HEBREW POINT QAMATS. The qamats is a non-spacing mark and should be  
20:54:55 <ChrisL> ARJ> positioned below the alef, yet in the reference image, it is positioned on
20:54:55 <ChrisL> ARJ> the left side.
20:56:00 <adrianba> heycam: it takes a long time to run through the tests - it's hard to see sometimes if there is a pass
20:56:23 <adrianba> chrisl: yes, sometimes you have to reload several times, which might have been a mistake
20:56:34 <ChrisL> the ones with multiple animations would be better split into separate tests, if you have to hit reload anyway
20:56:52 <adrianba> <general discussion about lessons learned and test first methodology>
20:57:44 <adrianba> ed: in order to run the test suite, do we need to generate the xml files?
20:58:17 <adrianba> ed: anthony generated the reporting files, maybe i can rerun the scripts
20:58:32 <adrianba> ...the problem is last time it included some draft status tests and i'm not sure if they have been updated
20:58:46 <adrianba> ...i can look tomorrow - probably not that hard to regenerate the status file
20:59:08 <adrianba> ...makes sense to see which revision we test so we know if we have to go back
20:59:27 <adrianba> heycam: do we have a general rule if the revision number doesn't matter that's okay
20:59:35 <adrianba> ed: yes, the revision numbers are not part of the tests
21:00:49 <adrianba> ACTION: ed to regenerate the test status file and make sure it only contains accepted tests
21:00:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2923 - Regenerate the test status file and make sure it only contains accepted tests [on Erik Dahlström - due 2010-12-16].
21:00:58 <adrianba> ed: i will send mail to the list once the status file is done
21:02:00 <adrianba> heycam: with animate-element-77, i was asking about whitespace causing things to be in the wrong, firefox is wrong but the test isn't trying to test whitespace
21:02:19 <adrianba> ed: if we can leave the test as is for now that is better, i would like to have more tests in future for whitespace
21:02:23 <adrianba> heycam: okay
21:02:40 <adrianba> ...the other ones i added are just tweaking the pass criteria to make it clearer
21:03:11 <adrianba> ed: when i went through the suite i saw about 20 tests that still had red in - better than we were
21:04:12 <adrianba> ed: think it's fine to start running through the suite, if there are any issues left we may need to make some more changes
21:05:14 <ChrisL> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/svg/text-dom-01-f.svg
21:05:38 <adrianba> chrisl: seems to be using Arial - not sure if the script is expecting the metrics of Arial
21:05:54 <adrianba> ed: tried to avoid using Arial where possible but there are some cases where it is needed
21:05:59 <adrianba> ...this is a draft test
21:06:17 <adrianba> chrisl: i could respond and say it was a draft, but it was raised as a comment
21:06:26 <adrianba> ...okay, it's a draft, i'll leave that one
21:06:50 <adrianba> heycam: just want to ask about the woff conversion again
21:07:15 <adrianba> chrisl: i've done some more and checked them in, still some to do, some of the tests i changed the font because it was easier than converting the svg font
21:07:26 <adrianba> ...still have three left to do, the rest are done now
21:07:40 <adrianba> heycam: only a few tests that rely on fonts that haven't been converted
21:08:06 <adrianba> ...so patrick, when you run through if there are only a few it should be okay to go back to those
21:08:09 <adrianba> pdengler: yes
21:08:27 <adrianba> pdengler: we're still on track for giving results next week
21:09:11 <adrianba> chrisl: what implementation are you running - is it public or internal?
21:09:30 <adrianba> pdengler: it will be internal so we need to figure out how to get it to you
21:09:57 <adrianba> chrisl: need to get a version to me under member/team confidentiality for spot checking
21:10:24 <adrianba> pdengler: yes, we'll need to do this - just may take time
21:10:55 <adrianba> ...for clarify, my test team monitors the working group mailing list so as soon as it is sent out that it is ready to go we'll start
21:11:21 <adrianba> heycam: so you'll run all the tests, create the implementation report, and then coordinate with chris?
21:11:39 <adrianba> pdengler: we'll run it as soon as we can and after that we'll get a build to chris
21:12:25 <adrianba> heycam: today after i've done the little issues, i'll mail out and say the tests are ready to run
21:12:43 <adrianba> pdengler: suspect we'll hit some problems and a few will need to be re-run anyway
21:13:00 <adrianba> ed: only thing missing is the xml file which is on me to figure out, will get it tomorrow morning
21:13:08 <adrianba> heycam: don't need it to start testing
21:13:14 <adrianba> ed: no, but good to get it done for later
21:13:22 <adrianba> heycam: sounds good
21:13:37 <adrianba> shepazu: another issue from whatwg that i'd like to briefly discuss
21:14:08 <shepazu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2010OctDec/0192.html
21:14:22 <adrianba> TOPIC: SVG elements in HTML <head>
21:15:06 <adrianba> shepazu: basically someone was doing svg and when tried to validate it then when put svg in body he could reference with use elements in other parts of html
21:15:31 <adrianba> ...but if he put the svg inside the html it used up space and in the head it wouldn't validate
21:15:39 <adrianba> pdengler: why did it take up space?
21:15:48 <adrianba> heycam: because it's default CSS
21:16:05 <adrianba> chrisl: display:none should support this?
21:16:16 <adrianba> shepazu: could also say width height zero
21:16:24 <adrianba> chrisl: that might affect the viewport
21:16:53 <adrianba> shepazu: this is maybe stuff for the integration spec - i think we're going to have people that expect to be able to put things in the head that doesn't display unless you use it elsewhere
21:17:11 <adrianba> chrisl: we should push this back to the html wg and say it always has display:none when it goes in the head
21:17:24 <adrianba> ed: don't want to do subsetting
21:17:39 <adrianba> shepazu: no, we don't want to subset, any svg element should be allowed in the head
21:17:49 <adrianba> ...should just be svg allowed in the head as chris said
21:18:37 <adrianba> pdengler: feels like we're creating work here
21:19:03 <adrianba> shepazu: no, i think this should fall out of the model - there is a quirk of the html spec that doesn't allow svg in the head
21:19:20 <adrianba> heycam: it's consistent with that you can't have things like paragraph in the head
21:19:30 <adrianba> chrisl: but html doesn't have the same reference model
21:20:03 <adrianba> pdengler: i think we should figure out a better model before we go an push on this - we should think about the bigger picture before making requests
21:20:25 <adrianba> shepazu: i disagree, i think you should be able to put it anywhere in the doc and use it anywhere
21:20:31 <adrianba> ed: and it works but just doesn't validate
21:20:41 <adrianba> shepazu: think it's not an architectural argument
21:20:54 <adrianba> pdengler: i think it goes to the fact there are concepts in svg that may make sense in html
21:21:12 <adrianba> shepazu: i think it's orthogonal to that - we can have a conversation about broader issues
21:21:34 <adrianba> ...maybe html will eventually have a use element for re-use but that is orthogonal for whether svg is allowed in the head
21:22:02 <adrianba> pdengler: if you introduce this into html then wouldn't you have to make bigger changes to html and what can go in the head?
21:22:12 <adrianba> shepazu: i'd like to e-mail the html working group
21:22:31 <adrianba> ed: sounds like we don't have consensus yet but we could start the conversation
21:23:15 <adrianba> <discussion about whether html might have a use-like thing>
21:23:34 <adrianba> chrisl: html might add something but we already have one in svg
21:23:41 <adrianba> ...so we should deal with the svg issue now
21:23:56 <adrianba> shepazu: i think this will be a common pattern - lots of people think this way
21:24:09 <adrianba> ed: just because something doesn't validate doesn't mean it isn't used
21:24:22 <adrianba> shepazu: i don't think the validation failure makes sense
21:24:44 <adrianba> ...if in the future people decide to add something like this in html and the consequences in the head then that's a bigger issue
21:25:05 <adrianba> heycam: i hear patrick saying that we should be taking the wider issues into account so we don't make it harder in future
21:25:24 <adrianba> shepazu: i understand but i think they're orthogonal
21:25:31 <adrianba> heycam: so that's the disagreement
21:25:43 <adrianba> pdengler: how about we test the waters and see what they think?
21:26:11 <adrianba> shepazu: i'm fine with approaching the html wg and saying we see two ways to solve this, here's one and some people prefer the other
21:26:36 <adrianba> ...the larger issue i'm concerned with is that every decision that we second guess, every little thing that we think have we thought this through then it costs us
21:26:47 <adrianba> ...if this is going to cost an entire telcon then it's not worth it
21:27:08 <adrianba> ...i am concerned with how long it takes to get to consensus on small details
21:29:59 <adrianba> shepazu: 1) are there going to be knock on effects for html in the future (if html introduces a reference mechanism like use)
21:30:07 <adrianba> ... 2) are there perf issues with this
21:30:16 <adrianba> ed: the html wg could come back saying we think this has bad effects
21:30:25 <adrianba> ...there needs to be a discussion on this
21:30:43 <adrianba> shepazu: we can ask the html wg if these two things will be a problem
21:31:29 <adrianba> ed: do we need a decision here today - can we assign the action to start the discussion
21:32:10 <adrianba> ACTION: shepazu to send mail to HTML WG raising the issue of using SVG in the HTML head
21:32:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2924 - Send mail to HTML WG raising the issue of using SVG in the HTML head [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-12-16].
21:32:42 <adrianba> ed: let's try to get the final things fixed in the test suite tomorrow and run the tests next week
21:32:43 <Zakim> -ChrisL
21:32:44 <Zakim> -ed
21:32:44 <Zakim> -heycam
21:32:46 <Zakim> - +39.537.7.aaaa
21:32:47 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
21:32:53 <Zakim> -Shepazu
21:32:54 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:00PM has ended
21:32:56 <Zakim> Attendees were heycam, adrianba, pdengler, ed, +39.537.7.aaaa, Shepazu, ChrisL
21:33:02 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
21:33:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/09-svg-minutes.html adrianba
21:33:22 <adrianba> rrsagent, make logs public
21:34:00 <ed> who's mailing out the minutes today? adrianba?
21:35:36 <adrianba> s/SVS 1.1/SVG 1.1/
21:35:40 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
21:35:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/09-svg-minutes.html adrianba
21:38:31 <adrianba> i'll send the minutes soon
21:41:32 <ed> thanks
22:37:29 <Zakim> Zakim has left #svg
23:00:11 <heycam> ed or anthony_work: which script is used to generate the htmlObjectMiniApproved harness?
23:00:29 <heycam> it doesn't seem to be test/script/generate_harness.pl?
23:10:36 <homata> homata has joined #svg
23:30:43 <anthony_work> heycamI think it is generate_harness.pl
23:31:25 <anthony_work> heycam, the script should generate all permutations of the harness
23:31:41 <anthony_work> I'll be at work soon, so if you need a hand with anything drop me a line
23:32:52 <heycam> ok sure. i just ran the script, and it didn't modify anything in harness/htmlObjectMiniApproved/.