15:57:32 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
15:57:32 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/12/09-html-a11y-irc
15:57:34 RRSAgent, make logs world
15:57:36 Zakim, this will be 2119
15:57:37 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:57:37 Date: 09 December 2010
15:57:40 Zakim has joined #html-a11y
15:57:56 chair: Mike_Smith
15:58:11 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Dec/0119.html
15:58:57 zakim, who is here?
15:58:57 sorry, oedipus, I don't know what conference this is
15:58:58 On IRC I see RRSAgent, Stevef, rschwerdtfeger, JF, paulc, MikeSmith, Judy, MichaelC, oedipus, trackbot, sideshow
15:59:04 zakim, this is 2119
15:59:05 ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM
15:59:17 zakim, who's on the phone?
15:59:17 On the phone I see [IPcaller], Gregory_Rosmaita, richardschwerdtfe
15:59:31 +John_Foliot
15:59:45 zakim, [IPCaller] is Steven_Faulkner
15:59:46 +Steven_Faulkner; got it
15:59:55 +Michael_Cooper
16:00:33 jongund has joined #html-a11y
16:01:09 eric has joined #html-a11y
16:01:10 +??P19
16:01:20 zakim, ??P19 is jongund
16:01:20 +jongund; got it
16:01:42 +[Microsoft]
16:01:52 zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
16:01:52 +paulc; got it
16:01:54 +Eric_Carlson
16:02:01 paulc is on mute
16:02:17 regrets: Everett_Zufelt,Laura_Carlson,Joshue_O'Connor,Silvia_Pfieffer
16:02:47 Agenda request from paulc in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Dec/0122.html
16:03:07 Zakim, call Mike-good
16:03:08 I am sorry, MikeSmith; I do not know a number for Mike-good
16:03:12 Zakim, call Mike-goog
16:03:12 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:03:14 +Mike
16:03:30 +Léonie_Watson
16:04:16 i have a message from everett -- he's been ill and due to health issues unable everett will not be able to fulfill his commitment and is not available at the time being
16:04:29 Leonie_Watson has joined #html-a11y
16:06:15 +[Microsoft.a]
16:06:58 cyns has joined #html-a11y
16:07:04 s/i have a message from everett -- he's been ill and due to health issues unable everett will not be able to fulfill his commitment and is not available at the time being/i have a message from everett -- he's been ill and due to health issues everett will not be able to fulfill his commitment and is not available at the time being/
16:08:35 scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
16:08:39 scribenick: oedipus
16:08:46 -[Microsoft.a]
16:09:02 TOPIC: Agenda Review
16:09:15 MS: what is at top of agenda is issue about the HTMLWG issue 122
16:09:26 PC: have you asked for changes to agenda?
16:09:30 MS: anything to add?
16:09:34 +[Microsoft.a]
16:09:39 Marco_Ranon has joined #html-a11y
16:09:56 PC: sent an email request in last half hour http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Dec/0122.html
16:10:02 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9452
16:10:18 MS: additional tracks issue
16:10:53 PC: last pre-last call bug to be processed by 8 december 2010 -- email discussion on TF list --chairs recommend mark as NEEDSINFO and put tracker request on it to escalate it -- TF already working on change proposal for this bug
16:10:58 MS: fairly big deal
16:11:07 +Marco_Ranon
16:11:17 MS: comment from MJS on this bug that was intriguing
16:11:47 PC: just want to discuss what chairs are planning to do to tell the TF what we are planning to do and give notice -- if pushback, would like to hear it
16:12:53 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9452#c7
16:13:17 JF: certainly 1 thing that media sub-group is aware of -- open issue; didn't have full call -- devs missing; we need to focus on track -- spent a lot of time looking at timestamp format -- escalate to issue to track better would be ok by me -- may change speed/energy expended on this -- next on priority list -- being tracked at procedural level
16:13:28 zakim, mute me
16:13:28 Marco_Ranon should now be muted
16:13:34 JF: does that answer your qauestion, PC?
16:14:17 PC: 2 outcomes: 1) NEEDSINFO without tracker request - would have until late january to escalate; since already working on change proposal, and since that bug is assigned not to editor but to TF, best thing to do is to escalate to isssue
16:14:41 PC: willing to join a media call to discuss timelines, schedules and deadlines
16:14:44 JF: sounds fair
16:14:57 kliehm has joined #html-a11y
16:15:07 JF: will put at top of agenda for last media subgroup call before holidays
16:15:19 JF: if chairs want to make issue and put into issue tracker, then they should
16:15:22 PC: thanks, JF
16:16:07 going back on mute
16:16:20 TOPIC: HTML WG Issues TF Needs to Explore
16:16:25 MS: issue 122
16:16:30 issue-122?
16:16:30 ISSUE-122 does not exist
16:16:59 MS: requesting a brief summary of issue 122 Lady of Shalott
16:17:06 MS: complicated situation -- 2 diff change proposals put forward from working group one from GJR one from Laura
16:17:23 2 change proposals - 1 from Gregory and the other from Laura
16:17:26 what to do?
16:17:46 Greg: my change proposal came from direct instruction from the Task Force
16:18:00 reflects what was agreed upon at the F2F at TPAC
16:18:10 also ram by the group 2=3 weekes ago
16:18:41 many feel that Greg has consensus behind what he presented
16:18:51 Actually I believe Laura's proposal is older.
16:18:51 action-94?
16:18:51 ACTION-94 does not exist
16:19:16 seems Laura's proposal is older than Greg's
16:19:30 this is one of the reasons why it was discussed at TPAC
16:19:41 Laura is not on the call nor was at TPAC
16:19:55 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/purely_decorative_images#Details
16:19:57 MS: we need to follow up with Laura to see what her thoughts are
16:20:04 addresses: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/122
16:20:11 seems that the 2 change proposals are contradictory
16:20:15 q+
16:20:18 fulfillment of ACTION 195 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/195
16:20:23 want to have 1 that the TF can endorse
16:20:39 4.8.1.1.7 A purely decorative image that doesn't add any information
16:20:40 If an image is decorative but isn't especially page-specific -- for example, an image that forms part of a site-wide design scheme -- the image should be specified in the site's or document's CSS, not in the markup of the document.
16:20:42 Exceptions to this rule, in cases where CSS cannot be used to display an entirely decorative image, are covered by the HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives. [HTML ALT TECHS] Authors are also encouraged to consult the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0 for more detailed information and acceptable techniques. [WCAG 2.0]
16:20:43 q?
16:20:53 ack Stevef
16:21:34 Greg's action item was to specifically re-write 4.8.1.1.7
16:21:59 SF: The genesis of this was based upon a bug around alt text
16:22:11 which then became a larger issue
16:23:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/09-html-a11y-minutes.html kliehm
16:23:19 q+ to say that my impression is that laura wants more push-off from spec to SteveF's alt tech document, i support, but not generic W3C citations, but direct citations of chapter and verse of alt techs document
16:23:47 q?
16:24:47 ack me
16:24:47 oedipus, you wanted to say that my impression is that laura wants more push-off from spec to SteveF's alt tech document, i support, but not generic W3C citations, but direct
16:24:50 ... citations of chapter and verse of alt techs document
16:25:34 q+
16:28:12 provide text alternatives for images feedback from Everett Zufelt http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11027
16:28:15 ack stevef
16:28:16 q?
16:28:34 martin_kliehm has joined #html-a11y
16:28:41 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11027
16:29:10 zakim, microsoft has me
16:29:10 +cyns; got it
16:29:19 +kliehm
16:30:12 q+
16:30:16 SF: disconnect between lady of shallot related to poem and lady of shallot to provide atmosphere - everett said that if IMG used, must have @alt - conformance restrictions in spec correct? don't think have conformance
16:30:24 q?
16:30:30 q?
16:30:35 ack JF
16:30:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/09-html-a11y-minutes.html kliehm
16:31:56 JF: part of problem can be explained by leonie -- remember a blog post she wrote about this -- some blind users find @alt "extra chatter" and others want nothing -- factors involved: sighted person who lost sight who has rich visual library in head versus user blind since birth without visual touchpoints/reference --- conceptual ideas that can't be visualized -- problem: trying to find a...
16:31:57 ...one-size-fits all solution
16:32:09 q+
16:32:19 SF: should it be non-conforming to provide @alt in that case?
16:32:25 JF: "non-conforming"?
16:32:53 SF: yes -- non-conforming to provide @alt for "decorative" lady of shallott example
16:33:22 q+ to say that @alt should be conforming but not required in that circumstance
16:33:33 JF: personal opinion -- should not be non-conforming -- don't want to be judgemental thing -- WCAG issue, not HTML5 issue
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16:33:42 q?
16:33:52 SF: agree - that's why i think should be non-conforming
16:33:53 q?
16:34:08 +1 to JF
16:35:09 LW: agree -- restricting it way is in spec at moment is too hard-line an approach -- cannot differentiate between decorative and content images for individual authors, but blind users should be able to skip image descriptions like sighted users skip visual objects
16:35:45 CS: should be up to author to decide - if author wants to be conforming with decorative image, should use alt="" -- legitimate design decision
16:36:15 q+ to ask what happens if alt="Boston city skyline" and role="presentation"
16:36:21 ack leon
16:36:29 SF: we seem to be in fairly broad agreement
16:36:31 ack cyns
16:36:31 cyns, you wanted to say that @alt should be conforming but not required in that circumstance
16:36:40 ack me
16:36:40 oedipus, you wanted to ask what happens if alt="Boston city skyline" and role="presentation"
16:38:02 CS: ARIA imp guide says image not in a11y API at all, but alt string in DOM -- if AT should use or offer user-configurability
16:38:51 JF: all in general agreement that everett's point in original bug, logical conclusion is to advance it forward -- status of bug right now is RESOLVED LATER
16:39:23 SF: don't agree with everything everett says -- criticism of example in alt techs document --
16:39:48 -[Microsoft.a]
16:39:57 SF: author's decision -- atmospheric image adding visual niceity to text around it, but is possiblity of doing both -- remember this is alt techs bug, not spec bug
16:40:12 +[Microsoft.a]
16:40:15 SF: 2 points of view that need to be resolved are what is in alt techs doc and what is in the spec
16:40:20 zakim, microsoft has me
16:40:20 cyns was already listed in [Microsoft], cyns
16:40:31 zakim, microsoft.a is me
16:40:31 +cyns; got it
16:41:01 JF: majority of people on call think softer stance the better position -- hardline stance in HTML5 is too hardline and has potential for harm (undefined @alt) -- HTML5 spec wrong, alt techs are right -- is that decision need to make?
16:41:56 SF: when chairs opened up this bug/issue to all of the documents, wasn't clear to me or others -- hixie defending strict conformance as editorial issue, which it is NOT -- issue has not been framed well -- needs to be better articulated for all concerned
16:42:41 SF: chairs need to do what they need to do to disambiguate -- alt techs document and spec -- need convergence or one replacing the other, but have to make that decision before we can reach consensus -- don't know process, need help/word from chairs
16:42:53 q?
16:43:17 JF: does TF have to go back to chairs to request formal changes to spec?
16:43:49 SF: chairs have to deal with bloat of issue somehow -- reason for so many bugs and change proposals -- need to get more clarity all around -- need to know process for resolving it
16:44:21 LW: go back to HTML WG chairs -- identified something that needs to be addressed, here is a plan, and how do we proceede
16:44:24 SF: yes
16:44:52 SF: raised this issue of clarity on last call i attended -- PCotton said would get chairs to reply but no reply from chairs
16:45:01 PC: on mute -- doing research
16:45:47 JF: how much is this related to issue 31? still out there -- on agenda for this call -- author conformance reqs for @alt on images
16:45:54 SF: specific instance of more general issues
16:46:04 s/more general issues/more general issue/
16:46:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/09-html-a11y-minutes.html kliehm
16:46:28 JF: Alt Techs document is included in HTML5 suite of documents -- status of Alt Techs will go from ED to WD
16:46:40 JF: published as WD three times (with next pub)
16:47:02 JF: change proposal for issue 31 is adopt SteveF's document as replacement for what is in HTML5
16:47:16 s/JF: published as WD/SF: published as WD/
16:47:36 The Chairs provided our view in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Oct/0393.html
16:47:53 JF: if Alt Techs document in direction we discussed today and your doc addresses this we should put forward that as change proposal for issue 31 would that solve this bug as well
16:47:56 This is when we proposed that any change proposal for ISSUE-122 should speak to ALL the WGs documents.
16:48:14 My email to Laura this week was simply asking her to follow that direction.
16:48:19 q+
16:48:50 SF: yes, it would; hit on something important -- alt techs spec contains normative guidance that contradicts normative guidance in HTML5 spec -- needs to be resolved -- is a conformance req document, not an informative document -- normative document on how @alt attribute should be used and how to provide a good one
16:48:53 q?
16:48:58 ack paul
16:48:59 The Chairs objective is to ensure that any changes to the family of HTML5 specs make the specs consistent.
16:49:38 PC: put in link to email from MJS http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Oct/0393.html -- said any proposal must make documents consistent -- concern over contradictory info in 2 diff documents
16:50:01 PC: problem with laura's change proposal originally -- updated to include what documents and what can should be changed
16:50:37 PC: objective of chairs is to ensure that change in one document alligned with other documents so no contrary advice given
16:50:42 ack paulc
16:51:05 JF: the issue is more than lady shallott but larger concern conveyed by chairs
16:51:43 PC: without a doubt -- pushback from editors when accepted change proposals which in view of editor have been incomplete in context of making change in one place and leaving contradictory material in same or other related document
16:52:17 PC: chairs want to bring deficiencies forward -- 2 documents that cover same material should be made consistent, whether WG endorses changes is separate matter
16:52:30 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Oct/0404.html Re: ISSUE-122 (shalott-example) - Expanded scope and Call for Counter-Proposals
16:52:59 SF: referred to above emessage -- need for clarification -- "chairs violating own process"
16:53:22 s/"chairs violating own process"/hixie claimed "chairs violating own process"
16:53:57 PC: speaking on my own as a chair, one man's issue is another man's waste of time -- chairs let threads die on wg list because that should be for technical discussion, not debate
16:54:49 PC: sent out call for proposal and got reply that "this is a waste of time" -- chairs not going to get into position of being subjective about tracker requests and escalations because think can be done by WG by refusing ChangeProposals and refusing to endorse change proposals when surveyed
16:55:11 PC: here today to nail down things before 10 december deadline
16:55:45 PC: change proposal for 122 lady of shallot needs specificity
16:55:59 -jongund
16:56:08 GJR: my action item issue-22 lady of shallot change proposal: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/purely_decorative_images (reflects consensus at TPAC 2010 HTML WG F2F) covers this
16:56:21 -[Microsoft]
16:56:32 paulc leaving to get ready for WG Weekly meeting
16:56:37 JF: anyone have anything to discuss before we adjourn?
16:56:40 -Eric_Carlson
16:56:45 -richardschwerdtfe
16:56:46 -kliehm
16:56:47 -Léonie_Watson
16:56:48 [no response]
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16:56:51 -Steven_Faulkner
16:56:52 -John_Foliot
16:56:53 -Marco_Ranon
16:56:55 -Gregory_Rosmaita
16:57:02 -Michael_Cooper
16:57:04 [ADJOURNED]
16:57:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/09-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:58:02 -cyns
16:58:05 zakim, please part
16:58:05 leaving. As of this point the attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, richardschwerdtfe, John_Foliot, Steven_Faulkner, Michael_Cooper, jongund, paulc, Eric_Carlson, Mike, Léonie_Watson,
16:58:05 Zakim has left #html-a11y
16:58:08 ... [Microsoft], Marco_Ranon, cyns, kliehm
16:58:13 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/09-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:58:19 regrets+ Janina_Sajka
16:58:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/09-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:58:39 regrets+ Kenny_Johar
16:58:42 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/09-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:59:07 present- paulc
16:59:14 present+ Paul_Cotton
16:59:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/09-html-a11y-minutes.html kliehm
16:59:49 i/Greg's action item/scribenick: JF/
16:59:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/09-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:00:18 present- jongund
17:00:25 present+ Jon_Gunderson
17:00:36 i/2 change proposals - 1 from Gregory and the other from Laur/scribenick: JF/
17:00:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/09-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:00:45 present- richardschwerdtfe
17:00:53 present+ Richard_Schwerdtfeger
17:00:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/09-html-a11y-minutes.html kliehm
17:01:35 prsent+ Martin_Kliehm
17:01:41 present+ Martin_Kliehm
17:02:01 present- Mike
17:02:05 i/SF: disconnect between lady of shallot related to poem/scribenick: oedipus/
17:02:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/09-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:02:10 present+ Mike_Smith
17:02:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/09-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:03:23 present+ Cynthia_Shelly Marco_Ranon
17:03:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/09-html-a11y-minutes.html kliehm
17:15:09 regrets+ Denis_Boudreau
17:15:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/09-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:16:03 Laura has joined #html-a11y
17:17:18