18:58:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webevents
18:58:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/12/08-webevents-irc
18:58:51 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
18:59:03 <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
18:59:03 <ArtB> Scribe: Art
18:59:03 <ArtB> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2010OctDec/0009.html
18:59:03 <ArtB> Chair: Art
18:59:03 <ArtB> Meeting: Web Events Voice Conference
18:59:25 <ArtB> Present: Art_Barstow, Josh_Soref, Sangwhan_Moon
18:59:31 <ArtB> Regrets: Anders_Höckersten
18:59:52 <Zakim> + +1.781.266.aabb - is perhaps cathy
18:59:57 <Zakim> + +1.206.697.aacc
19:00:04 <cchan4> aabb is cathy
19:00:06 <Dzung_Tran> Dzung_Tran has joined #webevents
19:00:07 <ArtB> Present+ Cathy_Chan
19:00:11 <Dzung_Tran> Present+ Dzung_Tran
19:00:23 <timeless> Zakim: aabb is cathy
19:00:26 <Zakim> +??P7
19:00:37 <smaug_> Zakim, ??P7 is Olli_Pettay
19:00:37 <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
19:00:45 <ArtB> Present+ Olli_Pettay
19:01:04 <Zakim> + +1.503.712.aadd
19:01:21 <ArtB> Present+ Dzung_Tran
19:01:22 <timeless> Zakim, aadd is Dzung_Tran 
19:01:22 <Zakim> +Dzung_Tran; got it
19:02:42 <ArtB> Present+ Matt_Brubeck
19:02:50 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
19:02:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/08-webevents-minutes.html ArtB
19:03:29 <Zakim> +Shepazu
19:03:39 <ArtB> Present+ Doug_Schepers
19:03:44 <ArtB> Topic: Review and Tweak the Agenda
19:03:58 <ArtB> AB: I sent a draft agenda to the list on December 2 ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2010OctDec/0009.html ). Any change requests?
19:04:17 <ArtB> AB: I realize the time is not convenient for some time zones and we can discuss that during the Any Other Business (AOB) agenda item.
19:04:41 <ArtB> Topic: Introductions
19:04:46 <ArtB> AB: we can take a few minutes for introductions. At a minimum, please say "hi" so we can start to recognize peoples' voices; would also be good to know if you are a newcomer/newbie to W3C (or not).
19:05:39 <ArtB> DS: I work for W3C
19:05:49 <ArtB> ... I expect to be an Editor
19:05:56 <ArtB> ... I helped create this WG
19:06:08 <ArtB> JS: I work for Nokia on Mozilla
19:06:17 <ArtB> ... been in WebApps for a while
19:06:33 <sangwhan> zakim, unmute me
19:06:33 <Zakim> sangwhan should no longer be muted
19:06:42 <ArtB> SM: I work for Opera
19:06:46 <ArtB> ... mostly on TV
19:06:50 <ArtB> ... but some mobile
19:07:01 <ArtB> ... and DOM kinetics stuff
19:07:02 <timeless> s/some/previously on/
19:07:14 <ArtB> ... He's work out of Korea
19:07:22 <sangwhan> zakim, mute me
19:07:22 <Zakim> sangwhan should now be muted
19:07:29 <ArtB> OP: I work for Mozilla
19:07:47 <ArtB> ... I also participate in WebApps, HTML and speech
19:08:02 <ArtB> CC: I work for Nokia
19:08:06 <ArtB> ... I'm new in W3C
19:08:22 <ArtB> DT: I go by "Tran"
19:08:30 <ArtB> ... been in W3C for a couple of years
19:08:37 <ArtB> ... HTML and DAP
19:08:40 <ArtB> ... work in mobile space
19:08:46 <ArtB> ... browser
19:09:09 <timeless> s/browser/browser for Intel/
19:09:14 <ArtB> MB: I work for Mozilla on mobile FF
19:09:29 <ArtB> ... fennec is the name of the project
19:09:38 <ArtB> Topic: Work Mode
19:09:46 <ArtB> AB: want to spend just a couple of minutes re the WG's Work Mode which is documented in  ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/wiki/WorkMode ). 
19:09:55 <ArtB> AB: this WG's Work Mode is based on the way the WebApps WG does its technical work which is mostly via e-mail. This is very different from a lot of W3C WGs and other Standards Organizations.
19:10:17 <ArtB> AB: one of my "pet peeves" is meetings for the sake of meetings so we will only have any meetings when there is a relatively clear need to do so.
19:10:33 <timeless> s/any//
19:10:37 <ArtB> AB: the one point I want to emphasize is that Editors have significant freedom when writing a spec so if a spec is important to you, you should follow the latest Editor's Draft.
19:11:45 <ArtB> DS: we use commit first and then review
19:11:50 <ArtB> ... Editors write the spec
19:11:59 <ArtB> ... then expect people to read it from CVS
19:12:21 <ArtB> ... but we will only formally publish a spec after the group has had a chance to review it
19:12:46 <ArtB> ... If you find a problem with an Editor's Draft (ED), you will always have time to raise issues
19:13:01 <ArtB> ... I edit D3E spec
19:13:12 <ArtB> ... but am not an expert when it comes to touch interface events
19:13:27 <ArtB> ... as such, I am hoping to get inputs and content from other WG members
19:13:41 <ArtB> ... I definitely want to hear about other approaches
19:13:54 <timeless> q+
19:13:59 <ArtB> AB: any questions?
19:14:05 <timeless> ack me
19:14:08 <ArtB> JS: are we going to use CVS or HG?
19:14:21 <ArtB> DS: we will probably use Mercurial
19:14:22 <timeless> s/HG/Hg/
19:14:50 <ArtB> ... I haven't used Mercurial
19:15:01 <ArtB> ... but if that's what people want, then that's what I'll do
19:15:16 <ArtB> JS: I can help as can others from Mozilla
19:16:12 <ArtB> AB: we use an explicit Call for Consensus e-mail to gather input on consensus for some issue or question
19:16:21 <ArtB> ... e.g "CfC to publish a document"
19:16:58 <ArtB> DS: to help move things quickly, I propose over the next month or so that I put together a draft or two
19:17:07 <ArtB> ... one for touch interface
19:17:15 <ArtB> ... and the other for higher-level stuff
19:17:28 <ArtB> ... I propose I start on those docs as soon as possible
19:17:29 <sangwhan> q+
19:17:36 <ArtB> ... Does that seem reasonable?
19:17:48 <ArtB> DT: what do you mean by "high level"
19:17:56 <ArtB> DS: things like "undo" or "zoom"
19:18:06 <ArtB> ... but not touch-start
19:18:14 <ArtB> ... or "pinch" which is a gesture
19:18:23 <sangwhan> zakim, unmute me
19:18:23 <Zakim> sangwhan should no longer be muted
19:18:24 <ArtB> DT: where do UCs come into play?
19:18:53 <timeless> ack sangwhan 
19:19:07 <ArtB> SM: Tran asked the same question I was going to ask
19:19:20 <ArtB> ... is the plan to merge these two specs?
19:19:33 <ArtB> DS: I think keeping them separate makes sense
19:19:55 <ArtB> ... the higher intentional events need to work with different modalities
19:20:20 <ArtB> ... but the split or not is a bit premature and I want to listen to other's input
19:20:30 <ArtB> ... but think it will help during bootstapping
19:20:41 <ArtB> Topic: Charter
19:20:42 <timeless> s/bootstapping/bootstrapping/
19:20:57 <ArtB> AB: before we move to UCs, Reqs, Landscape, ... want to take a quick look at what the charter states as in scope ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/charter/#scope ) and what is explicitly Out of Scope ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/charter/#out-of-scope )
19:21:13 <ArtB> AB: Doug wrote the charter so I'd like him to briefly talk about scope
19:22:28 <ArtB> DS: the out of scope constraint is because of concerns about Intellectual Property
19:22:52 <ArtB> ... The charter describes 4 layers
19:23:06 <ArtB> ... physical, gestural, representational and intentional
19:23:28 <ArtB> ... Physical: about a user doing something directly
19:23:57 <ArtB> ... Gestural: physical action e.g. two fingers that move together; these events are not in scope
19:24:24 <ArtB> ... gestures like pinch are common on various devices
19:25:17 <ArtB> ... Representational: the highest level of abstraction in the event model; e.g. zooming in, panning
19:25:32 <ArtB> ... Intentional: defines what the user "intended" to do
19:25:52 <ArtB> ... e.g. "the user intended to zoom in/out"
19:26:02 <ArtB> ... In scope: Physical + Representational
19:26:20 <ArtB> ... for example, can zoom in thru different physical actions
19:26:43 <ArtB> ... in some devices, physical events can be different than other devices
19:26:52 <ArtB> ... We need to define these two separately
19:27:34 <ArtB> DS: I think it is OK if we talk about gestures
19:27:45 <timeless> proscriptive :)
19:27:55 <ArtB> ... but we can't define then in a prescriptive or normative way
19:28:32 <ArtB> DS: the W3C Patent Policy defines the framework for normative text
19:28:55 <ArtB> ... If we talk about gestures, we must do so in a non-normative way
19:29:14 <ArtB> ... For example, gestures can be included in a non-normative Landscape document
19:29:47 <smaug_> smaug_ has joined #webevents
19:29:56 <ArtB> ... A normative definition of gestures is explicitly out of scope
19:30:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/08-webevents-minutes.html timeless
19:30:28 <ArtB> AB: any comments on this?
19:30:41 <ArtB> DT: so the specs will deal with which levels?
19:30:59 <ArtB> DS: one for Physical and one spec for Representational
19:31:20 <smaug_> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/Group/Drafts/1.1/intent-based-events.html
19:31:36 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/wiki/Landscape
19:32:27 <ArtB> DS: look at the Intent Based Events spec
19:32:32 <ArtB> ... it was done in 2003
19:32:47 <ArtB> ... I anticipate us defining something like these events
19:33:10 <ArtB> ... for example, undo, drag
19:33:21 <ArtB> ... some of these could be modal depending on the context or mode
19:33:49 <ArtB> DT: is Apple on this call
19:34:04 <ArtB> AB: the WG participants are: http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=45559&public=1
19:34:39 <ArtB> DS: it's possible that as we proceed, we may be able to get other Members
19:34:49 <ArtB> ... to join as they see where we are headed
19:35:23 <ArtB> Topic: Use Cases and requirements
19:35:32 <ArtB> AB: Cathy sent some use cases and requirements to the list on November 18 ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2010OctDec/0005.html )
19:35:36 <timeless> s/requirements/Requirements/
19:36:07 <ArtB> AB: any comments on Cathy's input?
19:36:42 <ArtB> AB: please send comments as well as other UCs and Reqs inputs to the list. For the purposes of gathering this type of non-normative data, I don't think our charter constrains our scope.
19:37:00 <timeless> q+
19:37:56 <ArtB> JS: re Cathy's input, it mentions "tactile" and I don't think that is in scope
19:37:59 <Zakim> -Matt_Brubeck
19:38:04 <ArtB> DS: the charter is silent on that
19:38:08 <sangwhan> q+
19:38:12 <ArtB> ... I think we can talk about it
19:38:14 <timeless> ack me
19:38:34 <cchan4> That's correct.
19:38:40 <cchan4> It's not supposed to be there.
19:38:46 <cchan4> I'll remove it and repost.
19:38:48 <ArtB> AB: we should consider that part of Cathy's input as void
19:38:55 <ArtB> ... it wasn't meant to be included
19:38:57 <sangwhan> q-
19:39:15 <ArtB> DS: so you want to exclude it?
19:39:31 <ArtB> AB: yes we want to exclude it because we are pursuing that in the CSS WG
19:40:50 <ArtB> DS: If the CSS WG is going to define a haptics module, we should make sure we talk to them
19:40:55 <Zakim> +Matt_Brubeck
19:40:57 <ArtB> AB: I agree with that
19:41:03 <cchan4> cchan4 has joined #webevents
19:41:38 <timeless> [ DS is asking for a liason ]
19:42:02 <ArtB> AB: anything else on UCs and Reqs for today?
19:42:15 <ArtB> DS: I want to encourage people to submit more UCs and reqs
19:42:25 <ArtB> ... the more data we have and the earlier on, the better
19:42:47 <ArtB> Topic: Landscape
19:42:55 <ArtB> AB: Doug created a Landscape wiki ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/wiki/Landscape ) that includes links to relevant resources.
19:43:16 <ArtB> DS: I would like to start on one doc right away
19:43:36 <ArtB> ... want to talk about two things:
19:43:52 <ArtB> ... 1) does anyone object to me starting on the first doc?
19:44:00 <ArtB> ... 2) does anyone object to two docs?
19:44:01 <timeless> I do not object to two documents; and I support two documents being developed concurrently now
19:44:24 <Dzung_Tran_> Dzung_Tran_ has joined #webevents
19:44:28 <ArtB> DS: first, does anyone object me starting to edit right away?
19:44:28 <sangwhan> I support parallel editing of the two
19:44:51 <ArtB> AB: I hear no objections
19:44:52 <smaug_> I agree, two documents sounds good
19:45:04 <ArtB> DS: also want to know if anyone wants to help?
19:45:05 <timeless> help how? :)
19:45:15 <ArtB> OP: you mean, does anyone have the time :-)
19:45:27 <timeless> eek
19:45:33 <ArtB> DS: looking for a co-editor
19:45:44 <timeless> i'll gladly review, and if you don't mind using a piratepad or googledocs for interim bits, i can do some live edits with you
19:46:01 <ArtB> RESOLUTION: the group supports Doug starting an Editor's Draft of the spec right away
19:46:18 <sangwhan> I would be willing to co-edit
19:46:49 <ArtB> DS: the 2nd question, are there any objections to starting with 2 specs (and possibly merging in the future)?
19:47:17 <ArtB> AB: No objections made
19:47:43 <ArtB> RESOLUTION: the group agrees Doug can start with two specs now
19:47:59 <ArtB> AB: who is willing to help with the editing
19:48:13 <sangwhan> I will need to internally check with our other contacts who are not present here at the moment
19:48:58 <ArtB> DS: this isn't a one-time shot; in the future editorial help can be added too
19:50:07 <ArtB> AB: it's good to see Doug is ready to go!
19:50:14 <ArtB> DS: want to get us started right away
19:50:19 <ArtB> AB: that's excellent
19:50:43 <ArtB> Topic: Any other Business
19:51:27 <ArtB> AB: how about a voice conf?
19:51:44 <ArtB> DS: I like them because they help with organizing the work
19:52:11 <ArtB> ... I don't see an immediate need for one that we need to schedule now
19:53:43 <ArtB> AB: people should contribute to the wiki docs like the Landscape 
19:53:57 <ArtB> DS: agree; want this to be a group effort
19:54:07 <Zakim> -cathy
19:54:19 <ArtB> ... if there are other docs, I'd like to get them
19:54:32 <ArtB> AB: yes, I have some resources I'll add to the Landscape doc
19:54:49 <Zakim> + +1.781.266.aaee - is perhaps cathy
19:54:58 <ArtB> DS: we must have broad support to make this work
19:55:13 <ArtB> JS: want to talk about time slot
19:55:22 <ArtB> DS: this can be challenging
19:56:00 <ArtB> AB: this can be real difficult
19:56:06 <ArtB> ... think we need a poll
19:56:52 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow work with Doug on a voice conference time of day that works for most people
19:56:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1 - Work with Doug on a voice conference time of day that works for most people [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-12-15].
19:57:07 <ArtB> JS: is this a bad time for anyone?
19:57:11 <ArtB> ... it is good for me
19:57:22 <ArtB> SM: it starts at 04:00 in Korea
19:57:26 <timeless> s/4/5/
19:57:29 <ArtB> OP: this is a good time for me too
19:57:54 <ArtB> DS: Sangwhan, would earlier to better for you?
19:58:02 <ArtB> ... like 3 hours earlier?
19:58:04 <timeless> yes
19:58:28 <ArtB> SM: 2 hours would be better and 3 hours even better
19:58:42 <ArtB> AB: and 2-3 hours earlier for the FI guys?
19:58:44 <ArtB> JS: ok
19:58:47 <ArtB> OP: ok
19:59:02 <ArtB> AB: 2-3 hours would be preferred for me
19:59:25 <ArtB> DS: so if 3 hours earlier, then 11:00 Boston
19:59:31 <timeless> that makes it 8am cali
19:59:35 <timeless> or seattle
19:59:36 <ArtB> ... FI would be 18:00
19:59:43 <ArtB> ... Seattle would 08:00
19:59:52 <ArtB> ... Korea would be 01:00
20:00:12 <timeless> so, i guess my s/// earlier was wrong, sorry
20:00:24 <ArtB> AB: ok, so next call would be 3 hours earlier
20:00:34 <cchan4> Not for me
20:00:36 <ArtB> DS: and the Day of Week?
20:00:51 <cchan4> Wednesday doesn't work for me for 11am Boston
20:00:59 <ArtB> AB: is this day a problem for anyone?
20:01:16 <ArtB> AB: understood Cathy
20:01:17 <cchan4> Any other day is fine
20:01:48 <timeless> fridays don't work for me in the winter
20:01:59 <ArtB> JS: the agenda should include all of the timezones 
20:02:05 <ArtB> DS: what about Tuesday?
20:02:27 <ArtB> AB: anyone objections to Tuesday?
20:02:41 <ArtB> AB: No objections raised
20:03:13 <ArtB> RESOLUTION: voice conferences on Tuesdays 11:00 Boston is acceptable
20:03:44 <ArtB> DS: how about Jan 11 for next conf?
20:03:50 <ArtB> AB: any objections?
20:03:53 <ArtB> AB: None heard
20:04:04 <ArtB> AB: next call is Jan 11 @ 11:00 Boston time
20:04:17 <ArtB> AB: Meeting Adjourned
20:04:21 <Zakim> -cathy
20:04:23 <Zakim> -Dzung_Tran
20:04:24 <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
20:04:24 <Zakim> -Josh_Soref
20:04:25 <Zakim> -Art_Barstow
20:04:26 <Zakim> -sangwhan
20:04:29 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:04:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/08-webevents-minutes.html ArtB
20:04:32 <Zakim> -Matt_Brubeck
20:04:34 <Zakim> -Shepazu
20:04:34 <Zakim> RWC_(WEBEVENTS)2:00PM has ended
20:04:36 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.781.993.aaaa, Art_Barstow, Josh_Soref, sangwhan, +1.781.266.aabb, +1.206.697.aacc, Olli_Pettay, +1.503.712.aadd, Dzung_Tran, Matt_Brubeck, Shepazu,
20:04:39 <Zakim> ... +1.781.266.aaee
20:11:41 <mbrubeck> mbrubeck has joined #webevents
20:12:32 <mbrubeck> thanks
20:12:47 <mbrubeck> Oh good, there is an IRC log too
20:13:32 <mbrubeck> shepazu: I might be able to co-edit too.  If you already have enough editors then I can be an emergency backup editor.
20:13:50 <mbrubeck> I've never participated in a W3C WG before, so I'm not sure exactly what I'd be getting into
20:17:24 <mbrubeck> (though I have lurked on some of the public lists for years, so I'm a complete newcomer)
20:45:29 <ArtB> zakim, bye
20:45:29 <Zakim> Zakim has left #webevents
20:45:32 <ArtB> rrsagent, bye
20:45:32 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/08-webevents-actions.rdf :
20:45:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow work with Doug on a voice conference time of day that works for most people [1]
20:45:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/08-webevents-irc#T19-56-52