<scribe> scribe: Sharron

<shawn> 61# to mute --- 60# to unmute

<kate> mute me

Shawn: Update status of new documents. Have another change to look at documents and slide sets. Have done videos with face and voice but have now decided that we could do slides with voice over more easily.
... Have people had a chance to look at these? What do you want to spend time on?

Sharron: Read a couple of agenda items, good progress, not much to discuss

Ian: About the same. Looked at ISO pages, most of them.

Jennifer: Looked through first two, would like to talk about dropping of ISO, not looked at slide sets.
... I am seeing little typos, am waiting for you Shawn to tell me to bring down the grammar hammer

Kate: Things are looking good.

Shawn: OK, then the first item is to look at the new navigation. First link goes to new nav. Now that you see it, how does it feel? Still comfortable?

Jennifer: Looks fine to me

Shawn: I talked to Liam who is mostly happy, thinks "Working together..." is too long and remember we discussed that. For all these sub pages, let's get feedback today, make the changes and submit any typo or gammar things you notice.

Jennifer: Substantively the pages look good to me

Shawn: So let's consider this our last call...
... Getting Started, we have an intro and then discussion of basics.
... open issue of whether to have a feedback mechanism.
... so ifnoring that, anything on the page "Getting Started..." anything?
... next is "Web Accessibility and Inclusive Design...." especially first paragraph?

All: no comments

Shawn: OK would like discussion of "Working Together..." but concern was may be reference to employment

Jennifer: WAI and you

Shawn: You and WAI

Jennifer: yes, even better

Shawn: Newer members of the group...what would make you feel invited ?

Ian: Would look for something like participation, participating...

Kate: Yes, I like that

Sharron: what about contributing

Ian: Might seem like solicitation to write specs and such, may be scary

Shawn: or might think money
... what about participting with WAI,...in WAI...invited

Ian: How to participate

Shawn: Would like to do a comparitive test to see what the repsonse is

Sharron: like the simplicity of You and WAI and they say people respond when they see you

Shawn: Analytics are huge because of the numbers, and strict we don't track policy

Sharron You can participate in WAI

Jennifer: But then there is the issue of length of title

<shawn> You and WAI

<shawn> You can participate in WAI

<shawn> Participting in WAI

Shawn: What are yur preferences?

Kate: Participating

Jennifer: Participating

Sharron: You and WAI

Ian: Participating

Shawn: I'll get input from staff and others, appreciate your input.
... already have that page and have wanted to tweak that because it can be overwhelming and not real freindly
... quite long and it might be nice to have a shoter landing page and then move people along to the more detailed pages
... anything else on the "Working Together..."page?
... we could periodically do a Home Page news but not sure that many people look at that.

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/redesign/2011/train2010

Shawn: Presentations and Tutorials..please look at that page
... The issue is that we don't really have much in the way of actual tutorials but may have related resources. Ian, please read first paragraph.

Ian: reads
... BAD must be expanded onscreen.

Jennifer: agreed
... don't find it particularly misleading.

Sharron: Do we plan to have more tutorials

Shawn: Yes, application notes. New redesign of W3C does have a tutorials page.
... lists tutorials even developed elsewhere

Jennifer: Does ATAG and UUAG have tutorials?

Shawn: No

<shawn> W3C http://www.w3.org/2002/03/tutorials.html

<shawn> We need to fix the list under http://www.w3.org/2002/03/tutorials.html#webdesign_accessibility ! :/

Shawn: How is everyone feeling about the use of the term tutorials? first paragraph?

Sharron: tutorial seems fine

Shawn: There is an explicit self-study option to some of them
... anything else on navigation and navigation pages?
... Monday I will have surgery and Shadi will take over EO and why we have pushed for completion in December. Not sure when I am back to work.

Web Accessibility and Usability Working Together

<shawn> change marked version: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/access-use/accessibility-n-usability.html

Shawn: Looking at the change marked version. One of the issues was taking out the ISO reference. We looked at two things. Asked specific people for input and got comments in WAI EO editor's list and implemented some changes based on those comments.
... some comments, we felt like we needed more input. Wanted wider perspective as we got closer to feeling like the docuemtn is ready.
... very challenging document because there are many competing points of view.

Jennifer: Looking at the change log is ...wow!

Shawn: At one point, a draft had defintions, one from ISO. The nuances in defintitions are subject to debate and we decided not useful to enter that debate.
... for this draft we thought about removing it, and wondered what is the benefit.
... so Jennifer what was your feedback?

Jennifer: Thinking of a compromise position...I would like to make sure that this document has credibility to usability people. Including the ISO makes it look like we have done our research. At one point we had a linked list of references.
... maybe include that even if we must include the note that hey, you ahve to pay for this.
... usability people may expect it.

Shawn: Good point. And Suzanne was wondering if we should make it a full academic research project.
... we removed the resource list at the bottom and removed it.

<kate> sorry the internet cafe im in is closing (heavy snow in england is causing a few problems this week..!) i will have to go...

Jennifer: Yes once you present a list you ahve to defend your choices.
... is Just Ask linked to?
... feels like a can of worms may not be worth opening.
... I don't know the usability field well enough to know if it does in fact lend credibility, but seemed like an expectation.

Shadi: And other than credibility, for accessibility people who are programmers, I may not know much about usability, it may boil down to what resources are next and how are they eferenced.

Shawn: Yes, thanks for that reminder.
... OK to take it ourt for this draft, but leave as editor's note to consider

Ian: I would like to see the point about being a resource for the usability-focused developer.
... it would be useful for me

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/redesign/ucd

Jennifer: I guess I wish we could get active participation rather than jsut comments from usability people.

Sharron: agreed!

Shawn: I could ask around. Usability was my old stomping ground

Jennifer: I would like it to be realy visible that the usability community is really behind this.

Shawn: great point to think about
... we can write for their online magazine, etc. Their upcoming conference is themed Design for Social Change
... anything else on this?
... We've read through it with our developer hat, usability hat, now let's try on the policy hat...particularly look at the intro
... any comments with that hat?

Ian: I have a question ... what do we expect policy makers to get from this paper? what would they use it for?

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/changelogs/cl-accessibility-n-usability.html Anyone developing guidelines, policies, resources, etc that overlap with existing accessibility guidelines, policies, resources, etc -- e.g., for older users, einclusion, etc. - encourage them to coordinate with existing accessibility work, including WAI and WAI guidelines. AND Policy people; procurement, purchasing, commissioning people - standards are essential; however, need to ensure they are

Shawn: We want them to require accessibility standards AND be aware that it is more than just checking a box.
... any other perspectives? OK we will probably do a bit more work and you will probably get an email to consent to putting it out as a draft.
... anything else on this?
... Since no one had a chance to look at the slide sets yet, please try to make the time to look at them in the next week or two and send comments.
... then we can adjourn. Next week Shadi will lead. have a great weekend

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Found Scribe: Sharron
Inferring ScribeNick: Sharron

WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!
Possibly Present: All Ian IanPouncey Jennifer P3 Shadi Sharron aaaa eo joined kate shawn
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        <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary
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Got date from IRC log name: 03 Dec 2010
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/12/03-eo-minutes.html
People with action items: