IRC log of lld on 2010-12-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:20:38 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #lld
14:20:38 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/12/02-lld-irc
14:20:48 [TomB]
rrsagent, bookmark
14:20:48 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2010/12/02-lld-irc#T14-20-48
14:21:00 [TomB]
zakim, this will be lld
14:21:00 [Zakim]
ok, TomB; I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 39 minutes
14:21:05 [TomB]
Meeting: LLD XG
14:21:09 [TomB]
Chair: Tom
14:21:22 [TomB]
rrsagent, please make record public
14:21:37 [TomB]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Dec/0006.html
14:21:43 [TomB]
Previous: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/11/25-lld-minutes.html
14:21:51 [TomB]
Regrets: Ed, Jodi, Emmanuelle, Joachim, Guenther
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14:49:57 [Asaf_]
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14:51:11 [ksclarke]
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14:51:55 [antoine]
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14:51:59 [michaelp]
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14:54:35 [Zakim]
INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has now started
14:54:42 [Zakim]
+??P4
14:54:48 [antoine]
zakim, ??P4 is me
14:54:48 [Zakim]
+antoine; got it
14:55:04 [antoine]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:55:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/02-lld-minutes.html antoine
14:55:51 [Zakim]
+jeff_
14:56:24 [kai]
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14:57:21 [antoine]
Regrets+ Marcia
14:57:41 [Zakim]
+??P6
14:57:56 [antoine]
zakim, ??P6 is kai
14:57:56 [Zakim]
+kai; got it
14:58:20 [Zakim]
+jeff_.a
14:58:34 [michaelp]
zakim, jeff_.a is really me
14:58:34 [Zakim]
+michaelp; got it
14:58:48 [Zakim]
+??P8
14:58:58 [antoine]
zakim, ??P8 is TomB
14:58:58 [Zakim]
+TomB; got it
14:59:09 [kefo]
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14:59:09 [antoine]
zakim, who is here?
14:59:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see antoine, jeff_, kai, michaelp, TomB
14:59:11 [Zakim]
On IRC I see kefo, kai, markva, michaelp, antoine, Asaf_, jeff_, RRSAgent, Zakim, TomB, danbri, ww, digikim
14:59:25 [Zakim]
+[LC]
14:59:32 [kefo]
zakim, LC is me
14:59:32 [Zakim]
+kefo; got it
14:59:33 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
14:59:45 [antoine]
zakim, IPcaller is Asaf
14:59:48 [Zakim]
sorry, antoine, I do not recognize a party named 'IPcaller'
14:59:57 [AlexanderH]
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14:59:58 [Marcia]
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15:00:10 [TomB]
Scribe: Kefo
15:00:15 [TomB]
scribenick: kefo
15:00:29 [michaelp]
zakim, mute me
15:00:31 [Zakim]
michaelp should now be muted
15:00:35 [pmurray]
pmurray has joined #lld
15:00:38 [kefo]
zakim, mute me
15:00:38 [Zakim]
kefo should now be muted
15:00:51 [jeff_]
zakim, mute me
15:00:51 [Zakim]
jeff_ should now be muted
15:02:12 [Zakim]
+pmurray
15:02:16 [markva]
zakim threw me out...
15:02:29 [pmurray]
zakim ack me
15:03:24 [Zakim]
+markva
15:04:39 [markva]
zakim, mute me
15:04:39 [Zakim]
markva should now be muted
15:05:47 [kefo]
topic: Admin
15:06:05 [ed_]
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15:06:05 [rayd]
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15:06:11 [kefo]
Resolved: Accept previous minutes
15:06:51 [kefo]
Topic: F2F in Cologne
15:07:01 [TomB]
s/Resolved/RESOLVED/
15:07:06 [Zakim]
+??P29
15:07:10 [kefo]
s/Topic/TOPIC
15:07:13 [edsu]
zakim, +??P29 is edsu
15:07:14 [Zakim]
sorry, edsu, I do not recognize a party named '+??P29'
15:07:24 [antoine]
zakim, ??P29 is edsu
15:07:24 [Zakim]
+edsu; got it
15:07:48 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:07:53 [Zakim]
+[LC]
15:07:53 [digikim]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is digikim
15:07:54 [Zakim]
+digikim; got it
15:08:02 [antoine]
zakim, LC is rayd
15:08:02 [Zakim]
+rayd; got it
15:08:25 [kefo]
Antoine: Small, informal mtg in Cologne
15:08:31 [antoine]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Dec/0005.html
15:09:11 [kefo]
... Talked about topics of incubator group
15:09:28 [kefo]
... and future outcomes of the group
15:10:03 [kefo]
... perhaps it would be best to distribute a written report
15:10:21 [aconstan]
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15:10:31 [kefo]
Tomb: let's discuss the issue of terminology
15:10:41 [kefo]
... but first attend to current agenda items
15:11:08 [kefo]
... maybe in next calls we establish shared terminology
15:11:45 [kefo]
antoine: met for 4 hours
15:12:07 [kefo]
tomb: should we continue with agenda and distribute notes by another method
15:12:52 [kefo]
TOPIC: JISC Open Bibliographic Data Guide
15:13:19 [kefo]
antoine: participants believe it best to conduct conversation via email
15:13:28 [kefo]
... and only later talk about specific items on calls
15:13:59 [kefo]
tomb: discuss in future calls
15:14:06 [kefo]
... keep placemarker for future calls
15:14:44 [kefo]
TOPIC: CITATION CLUSTER
15:15:33 [kai]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MhYl8Iz8raHA0M7jnHrzwiC_MmXnDM4aNG2ymVCz9rM/edit?hl=en&authkey=CKzY3YQH
15:16:08 [Zakim]
-edsu
15:16:08 [kefo]
kai: problems defining what was expected from cluster
15:16:22 [kefo]
... would like feedback from group
15:16:35 [Zakim]
+[LC]
15:16:39 [edsu]
Zakim, LC is edsu
15:16:39 [Zakim]
+edsu; got it
15:16:53 [kefo]
... began by defining a citation
15:17:24 [kefo]
... based on use cases, concluded needed a broader definition than just something bibliograrphic
15:18:09 [kefo]
... discussed scope of cluster
15:18:34 [kefo]
... citing, citations, citation format, link/cite difference, and backlinks in scope
15:18:45 [fsasaki]
fsasaki has joined #lld
15:19:06 [kefo]
... out of scope: defining new citation representations
15:19:34 [kefo]
... also identified citation granularity as relevant
15:19:38 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:20:08 [fsasaki]
present+ Felix
15:21:04 [kefo]
... level 1 is a basic string in the text of a publication
15:21:27 [kefo]
... level 2 is a structured citation
15:21:36 [kefo]
... level 3 actually linked citation
15:24:47 [kefo]
... identified a few additional use cases
15:25:17 [kefo]
... ability to register agreeement/disagreement with citation
15:25:40 [kefo]
... and jumping to cited resource are two examples
15:27:32 [markva]
this appears to overlap with Goals and Scenario (emma's suggestion)
15:28:01 [kefo]
... next step is to extract requirements from these added use cases.
15:29:22 [kefo]
... provided a section detailing existing technologies and vocabularies that may be helpful moving forward
15:30:36 [TomB]
q+
15:30:44 [kefo]
... also identified new questions that may need to be addressed
15:30:46 [TomB]
ack TomB
15:32:20 [kefo]
TomB: good start. I see a definition of citations in the scope of linked data. What is the function of a citation in linked data and how can that function be achieved (uris are one way)?
15:32:50 [kefo]
... What other ways might there be to identify citations in a linked data environment?
15:34:14 [kefo]
... I would expect citation cluster to frame the problem of what is a citation in a LD context and then look at use cases to determine the ways and methods that are employed to address problem.
15:34:57 [kefo]
kai: I'd like to take a step back and ask what we hope to achieve with the documents we're producing about the clusters
15:35:08 [markva]
+1
15:35:10 [kefo]
... We certainly need our own definition for citations in linked data
15:36:04 [kefo]
TomB: It is important to start with defining a citation in light of linked data adn then go on to explore how that is manifested in the use cases
15:36:19 [kefo]
... Why work in the Google Docs enviro versus XG wiki?
15:36:34 [edsu]
better for live editing ...
15:36:50 [kefo]
... Technical reason or a desire not to show work-in-progress
15:36:54 [jeff_]
better for simultaneous collaborative editing
15:37:05 [edsu]
q+
15:37:06 [kefo]
kai: We'll be moving to Wiki soon.
15:37:12 [TomB]
ack edsu
15:38:06 [markva]
q+
15:38:29 [kefo]
edsu: Thanks kai for thorough description of our work to-date. TomB, I hear your concerns. In my mind, LD is a technology and one that can be used to represent citations. But, w/o knowing what a citation is in the ansence of technology, we can't identify the needs for LD.
15:38:35 [TomB]
+1 to define citations generically before saying what they mean in the linked data context
15:38:59 [TomB]
ack markva
15:39:49 [kefo]
markva: Lots of interesting material. procedural question: If you merge into Wiki, will it break into different sections?
15:40:04 [edsu]
s/ansence/absence/
15:40:12 [kefo]
... What is the structure of the document we're all working toward based on the clusters.
15:40:15 [antoine]
I think the 'extracted use cases' are indeed Emma's 'scenarios'
15:40:56 [kefo]
TomB: Could be useful to have a scaffolding of subsections, with idea that for final report we cut out superfluous sub-headings
15:41:23 [edsu]
q+
15:41:31 [kefo]
markva: I don't know if I understand. We only have structure for use cases.
15:41:58 [kefo]
TomB: Let's not worry about establishing a formal template for the cluster reports right now.
15:42:14 [antoine]
q+
15:42:33 [markva]
ZAKIM< MUTE ME
15:42:36 [kefo]
... INclined to let groups develop a structure best-suited to their findings
15:43:13 [markva]
zakim, mute me
15:43:14 [kefo]
... Let's get it on paper and then determine areas of overlap and streamlined organization
15:43:16 [Zakim]
markva should now be muted
15:43:56 [TomB]
ack edsu
15:44:19 [kefo]
edsu: I want to echo Mark's points.
15:45:20 [kefo]
... If there is a specific goal for hte group, it would help the groups focus their work.
15:45:33 [antoine]
+1
15:45:39 [pmurray]
I agree with edsu; more structure would have been helpful for our conversation.
15:45:44 [TomB]
ack antoine
15:45:51 [kefo]
... Otherwise, the disparity in the resulting documents might require a great deal of massaging in the end.
15:45:59 [kefo]
antoine: I agree fully with Ed.
15:46:08 [edsu]
+1
15:46:12 [edsu]
:-)
15:47:42 [kai]
+1, but maybe we should have the presentation of a very different cluster first to see the differences and similarities.
15:47:42 [Zakim]
+??P11
15:47:46 [danbri]
zakim, ??P11 is danbri
15:47:46 [Zakim]
+danbri; got it
15:48:29 [kefo]
TomB: Believes groups need some latitude in creating their reports.
15:49:04 [kefo]
... But, perhaps, we could work to identify 3 or 4 headings that might be shared across all the groups.
15:49:41 [kefo]
... Is this a reasonable compromise. We don't lose time defining a template, but we do determine a few headings that apply across all the clusters.
15:49:44 [pmurray]
I agree, if it can be done at this point.
15:50:02 [kefo]
edsu: I think this would be useful, especially if we can identify the 3 or 4 headings quickly
15:50:22 [markva]
+1
15:50:27 [kefo]
... This would help to provide some guidance to the others.
15:50:38 [antoine]
+q
15:50:44 [kefo]
TomB: nearing the end. Anything else?
15:50:47 [TomB]
ack antoine
15:51:28 [kefo]
antoine: I have two headings: I like hte relevant technologies/vocabularies section.
15:51:31 [kefo]
what was teh other?
15:52:00 [kai]
Extracted Use Cases / Scenarios, however we name it
15:52:08 [kefo]
antoine: for a third, I like the background definitions. Such as, in the citation example, where what a citation is defined - the intoductory section
15:52:26 [kefo]
... the second was the extracted use cases / scenarios section
15:52:48 [kefo]
edsu: Kai, Peter, and I can rework the document to fit the proposed headings
15:53:31 [edsu]
i have 1) Background 2) Topic in the Context of Linked Data 3) Scenarios (Extracted Use Cases) 4) Relevant Technologies Vocabularies
15:53:56 [kefo]
ACTION: Citation cluster group to place Google Docs document into XG Wiki
15:54:02 [edsu]
markva: would be interested to hear if this fits how you've been thinking about it
15:54:23 [kefo]
TOPIC: PAUL WALK'S TOOL AND ANALYSIS
15:54:33 [kefo]
TomB: Must this remain on the agenda?
15:54:50 [kefo]
... I propose we remove it otherwise.
15:54:57 [Asaf_]
+1
15:54:58 [edsu]
+1
15:55:13 [kefo]
ACTION: Remove PAUL WALK'S TOOL AND ANALYSIS from Agenda
15:55:39 [kefo]
TOPIC: DRAFT OUTLINE FOR FINAL REPORT
15:56:53 [antoine]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Dec/0005.html
15:57:23 [kefo]
antoine: Two primary topics for the draft that we think we're missing, related to education and outreach
15:58:07 [kefo]
... firstly, wanted to emphasize opportunities of LD for libraries and other users. We need some scenarios demonstrating _why_ a library would want to do LD
15:58:21 [kefo]
... a type of benefits section at the front of report
15:58:41 [kefo]
... targeting library managers/administrators
15:59:41 [kefo]
... secondly, education. Guenther was interested in what the curricula for training or what the qualifications a library professional would need for LD
16:00:12 [kefo]
... Guenther is going to establish a Wiki page for this.
16:01:00 [Zakim]
-edsu
16:01:30 [pmurray]
That is huge, and important.
16:02:03 [kefo]
TomB: Propose we put an intro section into the report outline with and Education section
16:02:42 [kefo]
zakim, unmure mme
16:02:42 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'unmure mme', kefo
16:02:43 [Zakim]
-rayd
16:02:45 [kefo]
zakim, unmute me
16:02:46 [Zakim]
kefo should no longer be muted
16:02:53 [jeff_]
jeff_ has left #lld
16:02:54 [Zakim]
-danbri
16:02:56 [Zakim]
-pmurray
16:02:57 [Zakim]
-Felix
16:02:57 [markva]
bye
16:02:59 [Zakim]
-digikim
16:03:01 [Zakim]
-jeff_
16:03:03 [Zakim]
-michaelp
16:03:05 [Zakim]
-Asaf_
16:03:07 [Zakim]
-markva
16:03:12 [danbri]
yay, my first LLD call. all of 13 minutes!
16:03:15 [digikim]
thanks
16:03:18 [antoine]
zakim, please list attendees
16:03:18 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been antoine, jeff_, kai, michaelp, TomB, kefo, Asaf_, pmurray, markva, edsu, digikim, rayd, [IPcaller], Felix, danbri
16:03:35 [TomB]
ACTION: Antoine to add "LOD curriculum" into "recommendations" section of Outline, and benefits into an Introduction
16:03:36 [Zakim]
-kai
16:04:07 [antoine]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:04:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/02-lld-minutes.html antoine
16:04:50 [TomB]
[adjourned]
16:06:55 [Zakim]
-TomB
16:06:57 [Zakim]
-antoine
16:06:57 [Zakim]
INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has ended
16:06:59 [Zakim]
Attendees were antoine, jeff_, kai, michaelp, TomB, kefo, Asaf_, pmurray, markva, edsu, digikim, rayd, [IPcaller], Felix, danbri
16:07:09 [TomB]
zakim, bye
16:07:09 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #lld
16:07:13 [TomB]
rrsagent, bye
16:07:13 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/02-lld-actions.rdf :
16:07:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Citation cluster group to place Google Docs document into XG Wiki [1]
16:07:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/02-lld-irc#T15-53-56
16:07:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Remove PAUL WALK'S TOOL AND ANALYSIS from Agenda [2]
16:07:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/02-lld-irc#T15-55-13
16:07:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Antoine to add "LOD curriculum" into "recommendations" section of Outline, and benefits into an Introduction [3]
16:07:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/02-lld-irc#T16-03-35