IRC log of htmla on 2010-12-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

22:10:21 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #htmla
22:10:21 [RRSAgent]
logging to
22:10:34 [plh]
zakim, room for 10?
22:10:35 [Zakim]
ok, plh; conference Team_(htmla)22:10Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 60 minutes until 2310Z
22:10:45 [janina]
zakim, call janina
22:10:45 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
22:10:46 [Zakim]
Team_(htmla)22:10Z has now started
22:10:47 [Zakim]
22:10:49 [gfreed]
gfreed has joined #htmla
22:10:54 [kenny_j]
kenny_j has joined #htmla
22:10:59 [plh]
zakim, passcode?
22:10:59 [Zakim]
the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), plh
22:11:12 [Sean]
Sean has joined #htmla
22:11:23 [Zakim]
22:11:28 [plh]
zakim, passcode?
22:11:28 [Zakim]
the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), plh
22:11:57 [Zakim]
22:12:42 [janina]
zakim, +ip is Kenny_Johar
22:12:42 [Zakim]
sorry, janina, I do not recognize a party named '+ip'
22:13:04 [janina]
zakim, +[IP is Kenny_Johar
22:13:04 [Zakim]
sorry, janina, I do not recognize a party named '+[IP'
22:13:20 [janina]
Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
22:13:21 [janina]
Chair: Janina_Sajka
22:13:21 [janina]
agenda: this
22:13:21 [janina]
agenda+ Identify Scribe
22:13:21 [janina]
agenda+ Actions Review
22:13:21 [janina]
agenda+ Candidate Formats Report
22:13:23 [janina]
agenda+ Strategy for Synchronizing binary alternative media
22:13:25 [janina]
agenda+ Other Business?
22:13:27 [janina]
agenda+ Meeting Scheduling Through January 5
22:13:28 [Zakim]
22:13:29 [janina]
agenda+ be done
22:13:31 [janina]
22:13:49 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
22:13:49 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Janina, Geoff_Freed, [IPcaller], Sean_Hayes
22:13:50 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Sean, kenny_j, gfreed, RRSAgent, janina, Zakim, plh
22:13:52 [silvia]
silvia has joined #htmla
22:14:09 [plh]
zakim, passcode?
22:14:09 [Zakim]
the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), plh
22:14:14 [janina]
zakim, [IPcaller] is Kenny_Johar
22:14:14 [Zakim]
+Kenny_Johar; got it
22:14:49 [janina]
Hi, Silvia, yes, please join #htmla
22:15:43 [Zakim]
22:16:51 [Zakim]
+ +28012aaaa
22:16:58 [silvia]
zakim, aaaa is me
22:16:58 [Zakim]
+silvia; got it
22:19:13 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:19:13 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
22:20:29 [silvia]
scribe: silvia
22:20:33 [silvia]
topic: Actions Review
22:21:17 [silvia]
22:21:32 [silvia]
zakim, action-68
22:21:32 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'action-68', silvia
22:21:54 [silvia]
close action-68
22:22:18 [silvia]
gah, we are missing trackbot
22:23:05 [silvia]
22:23:09 [silvia]
22:23:18 [silvia]
Topic: Fallbacks
22:23:38 [silvia]
sorry, I'm wrong
22:23:51 [silvia]
topic: Candidate Formats Report
22:24:07 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:24:07 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
22:24:34 [trackbot]
trackbot has joined #htmla
22:24:34 [trackbot]
Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
22:24:34 [trackbot]
If you want to associate this channel with an existing Tracker, please say 'trackbot, associate this channel with #channel' (where #channel is the name of default channel for the group)
22:24:47 [janina]
zakim, make minutes
22:24:48 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'make minutes', janina
22:24:53 [silvia]
trackbot, init
22:25:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate plh
22:25:49 [plh]
trackbot, associate this channel with #html-a11y
22:25:49 [trackbot]
Associating this channel with #html-a11y...
22:25:56 [plh]
22:25:56 [trackbot]
ACTION-88 -- Sean Hayes to review Media Fragment URI 1.0 -- due 2010-11-24 -- OPEN
22:25:56 [trackbot]
22:26:13 [silvia]
topic: Candidate Formats Report
22:26:21 [janina]
agenda+ Candidate Formats Report
22:26:21 [janina]
agenda+ Strategy for Synchronizing binary alternative media
22:26:21 [janina]
agenda+ Other Business?
22:26:21 [janina]
agenda+ Meeting Scheduling Through January 5
22:26:21 [janina]
agenda+ be done
22:26:55 [Sean]
22:27:21 [plh]
22:27:28 [plh]
22:28:02 [silvia]
22:28:13 [kenny_j]
22:30:52 [silvia]
after reviewing the long list of requirements last week on in became apparent that we need a short summary that we can use as a basis for recommendation
22:31:03 [silvia]
John has started preparing this in the above document
22:31:22 [silvia]
this may become the basis for the potential chartering of a new working group
22:31:36 [silvia]
it should lead to a work plan for the new working group
22:32:27 [silvia]
(this was Janina)
22:32:33 [silvia]
geoff: is there a timeline?
22:33:00 [silvia]
janina: it would be good if we can conclude it this week - it is a lot of desire to move quickly
22:33:03 [silvia]
geoff: I can help
22:36:07 [silvia]
silvia: I am working on several inputs from diverse parties towards missing features around captions etc
22:36:15 [silvia]
silvia: I wonder what the urgency is
22:37:35 [silvia]
plh: seems to be a lack of coordination between the a11y WG and the HTML WG
22:38:08 [silvia]
plh: the HTML WG has an action item to investigate WebSRT further
22:38:29 [silvia]
plh: I don't want to have work on multiple formats for the same problem solution
22:38:53 [silvia]
janina: what we're not ready to say in this group is that we are perfectly comfortable with WebSRT to the exclusion of TTML
22:39:40 [silvia]
geoff: I agree - but given the statement of the browser vendors to support WebSRT, the question is whether we should spend time on TTML
22:40:04 [silvia]
janina: I am not clear whether all browser vendors object to TTML
22:40:46 [silvia]
… it sounds to me like MS may use WebSRT
22:41:07 [silvia]
sean: they will not oppose a common solution, but that doesn't mean they will oppose TTML
22:41:21 [silvia]
janina: I think I also heard there will be support from Adobe for TTML
22:41:49 [silvia]
… and others may announce this support, too
22:42:04 [Sean]
what I said is that IE want a common solution, and will do webSRT if that its ot
22:42:18 [Sean]
that does not imply opposition to TTML
22:42:43 [Sean]
s/its ot/is it/
22:43:10 [Sean]
k. well just being clear
22:43:43 [silvia]
silvia: if the browser have decided to support WebSRT, does it make sense for W3C to focus just on that
22:43:57 [silvia]
janina: well, we know that it doesn't yet provide for all needs
22:44:05 [Sean]
when it is a W3C soec
22:44:07 [Sean]
22:44:17 [silvia]
geoff: when it's in w3c, we can get it into shape
22:44:45 [Sean]
besides we dont have to wait for browser mftrs to do TTML
22:44:52 [silvia]
janina: I am uncomfortabel until I see solutions
22:45:07 [Sean]
22:45:37 [silvia]
22:46:08 [gfreed]
nice demo.
22:47:32 [silvia]
silvia: it's not quite true there are no implementations for websrt
22:48:00 [silvia]
… there are implementations like the one above
22:48:14 [Sean]
yayquery demo not working in IE9
22:48:32 [silvia]
22:49:56 [silvia]
janina: are we ready to make a recommendation for something that hasn't proven to work for all our requirements?
22:50:14 [silvia]
silvia: I have added examples in the gap analysis for how to do it now or how to fix it
22:50:30 [silvia]
… if we get control of websrt, we can make it support all needs
22:50:44 [silvia]
janina: what is the feeling in the group?
22:51:06 [silvia]
sean: if TTML is not allowed to win, then what's the point?
22:51:26 [kenny_j]
22:51:40 [silvia]
geoff: I agree - making a recommendation by us doesn't seem to make much sense
22:51:56 [silvia]
plh: we need input from this group soon before decisions are being made in the html wg
22:52:22 [silvia]
janina: so what recommendation are we going to make?
22:53:03 [silvia]
geoff: it just doesn't seem like TTML is going to go anywhere here, so we should probably move with websrt or rather an improved version of it
22:53:41 [silvia]
kenny: do we have a clear indication from browser vendors that they will not support TTML?
22:53:48 [silvia]
janina: we heard it from a couple
22:54:05 [silvia]
kenny: can we do a quick check with the browser vendors?
22:54:30 [gfreed]
geoff makes this recommendation reluctantly.
22:54:37 [silvia]
silvia: I think the indications we got from the vendors was very clear
22:55:13 [silvia]
Mozilla, Safari, Opera in particular
22:55:44 [silvia]
kenny_j: we should ask for official responses
22:56:04 [silvia]
… we don't have formal statements about what they are prepared to implement
22:56:30 [silvia]
janina: also if they are ready to provide the engineering resources to fix the gaps
22:57:16 [kenny_j]
22:58:36 [silvia]
plh: another way of doing this is to point out the gaps and that websrt needs to support these for us to make a recommendation
22:59:10 [silvia]
janina: identifying the gaps is important
22:59:21 [kenny_j]
I need to drop off the call now. Janina, I will call you in half an hour.
23:00:41 [silvia]
silvia: we don't make the decision, so we can extend John's page and say that givne these things are fixed, we are happy to accept either format
23:00:56 [silvia]
plh: or we can propose to create a WG that will sort out those issues
23:01:17 [kenny_j]
If we have a clear statement from the browser vendors that they will support web srt going forward + the additional features we introduce, then web srt is the logical choice.
23:01:30 [silvia]
geoff: I feel we are going to end up with a non-xml version of TTML
23:01:36 [kenny_j]
bye all.
23:01:41 [Zakim]
23:02:11 [silvia]
geoff: it will add a lot of time to the process
23:02:21 [silvia]
.. in the meantime the caption world will move forward
23:03:08 [silvia]
sean: TTML is already done
23:03:11 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
23:03:11 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
23:04:27 [silvia]
geoff: a single format would be preferrable
23:05:02 [silvia]
plh: it is not clear to me if the html wg wants to point to one single format
23:05:02 [Zakim]
23:06:27 [silvia]
… only if we want a single format do we have to push the HTML WG towards that
23:06:40 [silvia]
sean: the track format is the most important thing - the rest can be left open
23:06:44 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
23:06:44 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
23:07:48 [janina]
23:08:01 [silvia]
silvia: I think we need a common baseline format supported by all browsers
23:08:27 [Judy]
Judy has joined #htmla
23:08:31 [Judy]
zakim, code?
23:08:31 [Zakim]
the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), Judy
23:08:55 [silvia]
sean: we can decouple the decision on what is the baseline format and what we standardize
23:09:03 [Zakim]
23:09:11 [silvia]
… we don't want to hold up the HTML5 spec by insisting on a baseline format
23:12:31 [Judy]
zakim, who's here?
23:12:31 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Janina, Geoff_Freed, Sean_Hayes, Plh, silvia, Eric_Carlson, Judy
23:12:33 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Judy, trackbot, silvia, Sean, gfreed, RRSAgent, janina, Zakim, plh
23:14:35 [silvia]
plh: we need some recommendation to the HTML WG
23:14:47 [silvia]
… my fear is that the two groups are out of sync
23:15:44 [silvia]
janina: do we agree that a high level summary/gap analysis document would be good to return to the HTML WG
23:15:53 [silvia]
silvia: I'd be happy with that
23:16:18 [silvia]
geoff: if a WebSRT group is chartered, we will want to make sure that the requirements are met
23:17:19 [silvia]
janina: a new requirement just evolved in the mailing list on how to synchronize chunks binary and text
23:18:19 [silvia]
… if text and audio chunks are being synchronized at very different locations in the code, I am concerned whether this is smart
23:18:31 [silvia]
eric: I don't understand
23:21:21 [Judy]
silvia here it is
23:21:32 [JF]
JF has joined #htmla
23:21:48 [Judy]
rrsagent, make minutes
23:21:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Judy
23:22:01 [silvia]
eric: David Singer sent a concern about what we really want to support in browsers
23:23:29 [JF]
is there a different number for calling in? I go to a11y# and am told i am the first to join
23:23:46 [silvia]
geoff: no browser is supporting TTS natively
23:24:18 [silvia]
silvia: the screen reader would support this through the browser's accessibility API, which is already in place
23:24:26 [silvia]
geoff: is it going to be in sync
23:27:18 [silvia]
silvia: it's at a different level - the need to synchronize audio from resources and from TTS is not in the markup level
23:27:59 [Judy]
23:28:31 [silvia]
janina: what about synchronizing sign language and main video synchronization
23:28:46 [silvia]
eric: when the sign language takes longer than the speech, there needs to be some additional information
23:29:23 [silvia]
janina: I am also concerned that everything needs to pause at the same time
23:30:16 [janina]
23:30:34 [silvia]
silvia: I think that's possible when implemented and controlled by the browser
23:30:59 [silvia]
judy: will we share the summary with the HTML WG?
23:31:11 [silvia]
janina: I think we should do that today
23:31:17 [silvia]
judy: are there edits missing?
23:31:38 [silvia]
judy: also the request from kenny to ask for positions by browser vendors
23:31:50 [silvia]
… there are foregone conclusions
23:32:19 [silvia]
judy: what will we be saying to the broader html wg and wrt to a Websrt charter?
23:32:37 [silvia]
… there is an urgent timeline
23:32:47 [silvia]
janina: I don't think we have a conclusion on any of these
23:33:48 [silvia]
judy: let's come to an agreement
23:33:59 [silvia]
1. John's summary
23:34:11 [silvia]
judy: do people feel this can be shared with the HTML WG tomorrow?
23:34:36 [silvia]
Sean: no
23:34:51 [silvia]
… my comments are on the mailing list
23:35:21 [silvia]
silvia: I'd like to add a bit more on the websrt side
23:35:27 [silvia]
judy: can we get this done by tomorrow?
23:36:39 [silvia]
plh: we can report to the html wg and give feedback that we are going to provide a document
23:36:59 [silvia]
judy: janina can provide an interim statement
23:37:23 [silvia]
judy: how will we get it finalized?
23:37:49 [silvia]
janina: if Sean and Silvia simply added their input to the wiki page, that would be ok by me
23:38:09 [silvia]
… I'd rather have the edits directly than lost in emails
23:38:46 [silvia]
judy: can we have the edits by Friday?
23:38:58 [silvia]
sean: yes
23:39:00 [silvia]
silvia: yes
23:39:26 [silvia]
geoff: do you want all the comments on the wiki?
23:39:45 [silvia]
janina: keep it terse and at the summary level - no details
23:40:03 [silvia]
… link to the details
23:41:01 [silvia]
2. Kenny's suggestion for vendor positions
23:41:17 [silvia]
judy: is there concensus from the group that this should happen?
23:41:28 [silvia]
… and how we could go about it?
23:42:20 [silvia]
janina: not sure there is concensus - I wonder how difficult it will be to get people on record
23:42:29 [silvia]
plh: let's ask eric :)
23:42:57 [silvia]
eric: committing the company's resources is way above my pay grade ;-)
23:43:54 [silvia]
eric: I am happy to ask the question to others in the company
23:43:58 [silvia]
silvia: what is the question?
23:44:31 [silvia]
how strongly do the browser vendors feel about a xml based solution?
23:46:01 [silvia]
judy: maybe it's a very sensitive question to answer
23:46:52 [silvia]
eric: if we are going to ask a question, it should not be about xml vs non-xml, but more directly whether a vendor plans implementing support for WebSRT or TTML or both
23:47:02 [silvia]
… whether there is a preference
23:47:07 [silvia]
judy: also whether there is an aversion
23:47:42 [silvia]
geoff: also needs to be about the extensions for websrt
23:48:34 [silvia]
silvia: maybe make a questionnaire with multiple questions
23:48:43 [silvia]
… TTML vs WebSRT
23:48:52 [silvia]
… whether generally XML
23:49:08 [silvia]
… whether support for WebSRT extensions
23:49:30 [silvia]
judy: might be something to raise tomorrow at html wg meeting
23:50:12 [silvia]
janina: might be difficult to summarize tomorrow
23:51:48 [silvia]
judy: we should mention that if websrt is the format, we need extensions
23:52:09 [silvia]
janina: the wider exploration had merit
23:52:34 [silvia]
… taking it all into a separate wg makes a lot of sense
23:53:47 [silvia]
judy: should the new wg be websrt specific or have a wider focus?
23:55:23 [Judy]
s/should the new wg be/was there a consensus with regard to whether the new wg should be/
23:55:44 [silvia]
silvia: my opinion is the new wg should specifically look at websrt - there's already a wg for ttml
23:56:19 [silvia]
… the decision which format to use is not one that would be done in the wg
23:57:01 [silvia]
judy: there are other needs that go beyond the mere format that need to be resolved
23:57:10 [Zakim]
23:57:30 [silvia]
silvia: the more we pack in the longer it will take
23:57:40 [gfreed]
i have to hang up-- apologies.
23:57:52 [gfreed]
will look for the notes and add my comments.
23:58:49 [silvia]
janina: we are clear on the first question - the second one is still unclear
23:59:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate plh
23:59:28 [plh]
zakim, list participants
23:59:28 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Janina, Geoff_Freed, Sean_Hayes, Kenny_Johar, Plh, +28012aaaa, silvia, Eric_Carlson, Judy
23:59:31 [plh]
23:59:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate plh
23:59:57 [Zakim]