16:57:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #CSS
16:57:46 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/12/01-CSS-irc
16:57:53 <plinss_> zakim, this will be style
16:57:53 <Zakim> ok, plinss_; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
16:58:01 <plinss_> rrsagent, make logs public
16:58:26 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:58:33 <Zakim> +plinss_
17:00:02 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:00:51 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
17:00:57 <Zakim> +Tal
17:00:59 <bradk> bradk has joined #css
17:01:01 <Zakim> +??P3
17:01:19 <Zakim> +David_Baron
17:01:37 <kojiishi> zakim, ??p3 is me
17:01:39 <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
17:01:44 <Zakim> +bradk
17:01:53 <sylvaing> sylvaing has joined #css
17:02:05 <JohnJan> JohnJan has joined #css
17:02:12 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
17:02:21 <JohnJan> zakim, microsoft is johnjan
17:02:21 <Zakim> +johnjan; got it
17:02:44 <Zakim> +smfr
17:03:12 <Zakim> +fantasai
17:03:41 <Zakim> +Bert
17:04:56 <Zakim> +ChrisL
17:04:58 <danielweck> danielweck has joined #css
17:06:15 <JohnJan> zakim, johnjan has arronei
17:06:15 <Zakim> +arronei; got it
17:06:19 <Bert> Scribe: Bert
17:06:27 <Bert> ScribeNick: Bert
17:06:33 <Bert> Topic: Agenda
17:06:42 <Bert> PL: Anything to add?
17:06:52 <Bert> Topic: CSS 2.1 LC
17:07:26 <Bert> PL: We are past deadline for LC for CSS 2.1. But are there changes still expected?
17:07:27 <Zakim> +??P30
17:07:37 <Zakim> +TabAtkins
17:07:39 <Bert> CL: I think we can publish. No major changes.
17:07:51 <ChrisL> We are better to publish now and dealwith any changes as lc comments
17:08:27 <Bert> RESOLVED: publish CSS 2.1 as last call
17:08:43 <Zakim> +SteveZ
17:08:56 <Bert> PL: Are all edits in the text?
17:08:59 <Bert> BB: yes.
17:09:28 <Bert> i/RESOLVED/AE: ditto./
17:09:48 <Bert> Topic: Tests
17:10:04 <Bert> Tab: How do we note the failures?
17:10:22 <Bert> DB: I didn't comment on some tests, because I think the tets is correct.
17:10:29 <fantasai> s/tets/test/
17:10:40 <Bert> PL: Other implementers?
17:10:49 <Bert> CL: I did some of the Prince tests.
17:10:57 <dbaron> That said, I think it's a lot easier to prove a test incorrect than to prove a test correct.
17:11:05 <Bert> ... But some problems with building the suite.
17:11:15 <Bert> ... Worked with some old tests.
17:11:21 <Bert> ... So need to check against new ones.
17:11:29 <dbaron> (and the "some tests" I mentioned are those that are tests for features Gecko implements)
17:12:03 <plinss_> http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027.zip
17:12:04 <Bert> PL: RC3 is in harness. SVN head version largely the same.
17:12:17 <Bert> JJ: Yes, same as 1027
17:13:13 <Bert> PL: What is in RC3 is largely not changed.
17:13:28 <Bert> ... What shows up on blocking page is not yet marked in database.
17:13:37 <Bert> ... What is on wikie *has* been marked.
17:13:57 <Bert> JJ: Do we have updated timeline?
17:14:05 <Ms2ger> s/wikie/wiki/
17:14:35 <Bert> EE: Waiting for some replies from Arron. And a number of comments on MS tests not yet addressed. 
17:15:18 <Bert> AE: Probably just lost in the hundreds of pages... I'm going throught hundreds of e-mails, but so far I have zero edits to make.
17:15:41 <Bert> ... Will reply to you as soon as I checked all e-mail. They are not all tagged corectly.
17:15:49 <Bert> ... Will try this week.
17:15:59 <Bert> EE: Any that you didn't change?
17:16:14 <Bert> AE: I've changed all, as far as I know.
17:16:36 <Bert> PL: Everything that is marked as invalid in harness has been chnaged imn RC4?
17:16:47 <Bert> EE: Do you have a link?
17:16:57 <Bert> s/imn/in/
17:17:12 <plinss_> http://test.csswg.org/harness/results?s=CSS21_%HTML_RC3&t=0&f[]=1&f[]=2&f[]=4&f[]=16
17:17:53 <Zakim> +howcome
17:18:04 <Bert> JJ: We can move forward without waiting for Arron's mail, I hope?
17:18:11 <Bert> EE: Let me verify.
17:18:28 <Bert> JJ: Just wanting to streamline the process.
17:18:34 <howcome> howcome has joined #css
17:19:39 <Bert> EE: OK, don't need to wait for Arron.
17:19:58 <Bert> ... I'll go through my e-mails.
17:20:17 <Bert> JJ: Yes, Arron can do this, but just no need to block RC4.
17:21:12 <Bert> PL: Only run changed tests, no need to run all tests of RC4. Harness can show that.
17:21:51 <Bert> PL: So we're left with the tests we're blocked on...
17:22:04 <TabAtkins> http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/font-family-rule-011.htm
17:22:06 <plinss_> http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/font-family-rule-011.htm
17:22:12 <Bert> TA: Question on one test [see URL]
17:22:28 <Bert> ... Unquoted "default" keyword.
17:22:39 <Bert> ... Is that a keyword in CSS 2?
17:22:45 <oyvind> it's reserved
17:22:47 <Bert> DB: I think it is reserved.
17:23:01 <Bert> ... In the para "If quoting is omitted..."
17:23:21 <ChrisL> reserved for future expansion
17:23:29 <Bert> TA: OK, that's is confusing. We were looking at the syntax.
17:23:53 <Bert> ... It will mean either 'initial' or 'inherit', won't it?
17:23:56 <dbaron> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/fonts.html#font-family-prop says:
17:24:01 <dbaron> The keywords 'initial' and 'default' are reserved for future use and must also be quoted when used as font names. UAs must not consider these keywords as matching the '<family-name>' type. 
17:24:04 <Bert> DB: That is the idea, but not sure we'll actually do it.
17:24:34 <Bert> TA: I think I have all the fonts, but I stil don't get all columns numbered.
17:24:49 <Bert> CL: That is wrong, then.
17:25:04 <Bert> TA: But should we test whether the font works, or whether it bolds?
17:25:33 <Bert> AE: Mail John with the issue.
17:25:44 <Bert> DB: I get all numbers on Chrome.
17:26:00 <Bert> TA: I get some only, this is on Windows.
17:26:34 <Bert> PL: font-family-rule-11 passes in IE and Chrome.
17:26:48 <Bert> ... According to your report.
17:26:54 <Bert> TA: Let me check...
17:27:11 <Bert> ... No, it doesn't. I must have hit the wrong button.
17:27:16 <dbaron> s/DB: I get all numbers on Chrome/DB: I get all numbers in Chrome on Linux/
17:27:36 <Bert> PL: Then I will update the DB accordingly.
17:28:43 <Bert> HL: I talked to Prince. Maybe they can help with run-in, but I have no results yet.
17:28:58 <Bert> PL: We have one pass on most of those.
17:29:22 <Bert> JJ: IE passes about ten of them.
17:29:33 <Bert> TA: I have one more issue:
17:29:33 <TabAtkins> http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/run-in-breaking-002.htm
17:29:56 <Bert> ... We have the wrong borders. Is that significant?
17:30:40 <Bert> DB: The test asserts line breaking and borders must be correct.
17:31:12 <Bert> SF: Webkit fails, it seems.
17:31:21 <Bert> BK: Looks right in my webkit...
17:31:49 <Bert> TA: Is there a similar tests without run-in?
17:32:03 <Bert> DB: I'm not sure the border assertion is actually correct.
17:32:26 <Bert> ... It is a ltr run-in and a rtl block. I'll have to check that.
17:32:48 <bradk> I take it back. The missing borders are on the opposite sides of what the text says
17:33:16 <Bert> JJ: Chrome breaking looks correct.
17:33:28 <Bert> TA: Not sure. Should it be on the other side?
17:33:51 <Bert> BK: Maybe the spec is wrong then.
17:34:41 <Bert> TA: We still not pass background intrinsic, but I'll need to study that more carefully first.
17:35:17 <Bert> BK: Contradiction? Test says there should be no border there.
17:35:44 <Bert> DB: I don't think the test is ambiguous. But it may be incorrect.
17:36:19 <Bert> TA: But it says there *should*  be baroder between "header" and "Start".
17:36:24 <Bert> DB: Ah yes.
17:36:35 <Bert> s/baroder/border/
17:37:21 <Bert> PL: Are we agreeing on the spec?
17:37:39 <Bert> DB: I think Chrome is correct. The test assertion needs to be corrected.
17:38:05 <Bert> JJ: IE has a catastrophic break, but if we ignore that, it matches chrome.
17:38:25 <Bert> PL: Does somebody ping Boris about the test?
17:38:33 <Bert> DB: Yes, I will.
17:39:04 <Bert> PL: Any other tests we can review?
17:39:24 <Bert> DB: Says the test dates from before our decision on inheritance.
17:39:44 <Bert> TA: But inheritance is always the document tree. Anything else would be insane.
17:40:01 <Bert> EE; There are sometimes anonymous boxes, that don't exist in the doc tree.
17:40:08 <Bert> s/EE;/EE:/
17:40:28 <Bert> DB: Boris agrees the text about vertical borers in the test is backwards.
17:40:38 <Bert> s/borers/borders/
17:41:03 <dbaron> bz says he can fix the test in svn
17:41:15 <Bert> PL: Can we look at the margin collapse tests?
17:41:55 <dbaron> http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/bidi-breaking-002.htm
17:42:11 <Bert> EE: We had resolved that line separator behavior is undefined.
17:42:38 <Bert> EE: One test fails, but it is a "may."
17:43:13 <Bert> DB: A bunch of tests without passes. Not sure we can discuss them.
17:43:19 <dbaron> http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/abspos-non-replaced-width-margin-000.htm
17:43:22 <dbaron> http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/abspos-replaced-width-margin-000.htm
17:43:55 <Bert> DB: [see URLs]. These are almost exhaustive tests for all combinations. Ref tests.
17:44:20 <Bert> ... We can probably split them and get more passes. But that probably still not leads to 2 passes for all of them.
17:45:01 <Bert> PL: I see reports that IE7 passes, but also that it fails...
17:45:06 <gsnedders> zakim, who's on the phone?
17:45:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss_, johnjan, Tal, kojiishi, David_Baron, bradk, smfr, fantasai, Bert, ChrisL, ??P30, TabAtkins, SteveZ, howcome
17:45:08 <Zakim> johnjan has arronei
17:45:11 <smfr> TabAtkins: not <link rel="alternate" href="http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/layout/reftests/abspos-non-replaced-width-offset-margin.html"> ?
17:45:15 <Bert> TA: Where is the reference? I don't see it linked.
17:45:26 <TabAtkins> smfr: Well, that file doesn't exist at all.
17:45:46 <gsnedders> zakim, what's the code?
17:45:46 <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), gsnedders
17:45:51 <plinss_> http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/reftest.list
17:45:54 <dbaron> http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/abspos-non-replaced-width-margin-000-ref.htm
17:45:55 <Bert> DB: Add -ref to the URl to find the reference.
17:45:58 <dbaron> http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/abspos-replaced-width-margin-000-ref.htm
17:46:29 <Bert> PL: Working on improvement to harness. But see the manifest [URL above].
17:46:42 <Bert> ... Some tests have multiple refs.
17:46:51 <Bert> TA: That doesn't make sense.
17:47:08 <Bert> PL: There are multiple ways to make the same result.
17:47:35 <Bert> DB: Reftests test equivalence between features. There may be more than two equivalent features.
17:47:47 <Bert> PL: Manifest has several lines for same test.
17:48:16 <Bert> DB: But indeed not marked in metadata in the test. Could be reworked, but haven't done it.
17:48:47 <Bert> PL: I'm planning to add links in the wrapper in the harness.
17:49:10 <Bert> ... We'll also have *negative* refs in RC4, what should *not* match.
17:49:33 <Bert> SF: useful to have sometihing in manifest that says there are mutliple refs.
17:49:38 <Bert> EE: Like what?
17:49:46 <Bert> SF: Some keyword I can look for.
17:50:03 <Bert> EE: The manifest has a fixed format. Can put it in the metadata.
17:50:10 <Bert> SF: That would probably be OK.
17:50:38 <Bert> DB: The test we were talking about, I'd like to ask implementers to look at their bugs.
17:50:50 <Bert> SF: It's a complex test. Splitting it out would indeed help.
17:51:22 <Bert> DB: Relatively straightforward to edit test and reference. They are aligned line by line.
17:52:01 <Bert> SF: I'll try to get Hyatt to look at this.
17:52:37 <Bert> JJ: A propos of IE7: IE7 fails.
17:53:50 <Bert> DB: We might soon have two additional tests on the zero-passes list, because one fix I made caused two other tests to now fail.
17:54:10 <Bert> EE: Update to spec in 2007 had not been incorporated in the tests.
17:54:32 <Bert> PL: That will then give us one pass. Still need a second one...
17:55:00 <Bert> TA: I'm willing to try...
17:55:24 <Bert> EE: Hyatt wasn't sure about making the change. Somebody should talk to him.
17:55:46 <fantasai> He didn't want to change margin collapsing code without adequate test coverage
17:56:02 <fantasai> which we didn't have when I talked about it with him last
17:56:09 <Bert> DB: Table background tests: it looks like Opera is very close.
17:56:17 <dbaron> http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/table-backgrounds-bs-row-001.htm
17:56:21 <Bert> ... Some spacing in horizontal direction only.
17:56:24 <dbaron> http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/table-backgrounds-bs-rowgroup-001.htm
17:56:33 <Bert> ... While webkit doesn't pass at all.
17:56:40 <Bert> ... Can Opera fix that?
17:56:45 <dbaron> http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/table-backgrounds-bs-row-001-ref.htm
17:56:45 <Bert> ... I haven't looked at IE.
17:56:48 <dbaron> http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/table-backgrounds-bs-rowgroup-001-ref.htm
17:57:18 <Zakim> -bradk
17:57:32 <smfr> sorry, have to run to another mtg
17:57:36 <Bert> HL: You think it is the same issue in both?
17:57:36 <Zakim> -smfr
17:57:39 <smfr> smfr has left #css
17:57:44 <Bert> DB: That is what it looks like, yes.
17:58:00 <Bert> HL: I will take a look at that.
17:58:18 <Zakim> -kojiishi
17:58:38 <Zakim> +??P3
17:59:14 <Zakim> -David_Baron
17:59:16 <Zakim> -SteveZ
17:59:16 <Zakim> -johnjan
17:59:17 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
17:59:19 <Zakim> -ChrisL
17:59:20 <Zakim> -howcome
17:59:25 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:59:27 <Bert> PL: I will work on harness and reftest. It looks like the web spider attack on it is under control.
17:59:28 <Zakim> -??P3
17:59:29 <Zakim> -plinss_
17:59:42 <Zakim> -Bert
18:00:30 <Bert> zakim, list attendees
18:00:30 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been plinss_, Tal, David_Baron, kojiishi, bradk, smfr, fantasai, Bert, ChrisL, arronei, TabAtkins, SteveZ, howcome
18:00:45 <Bert> rrsagent, make minutes
18:00:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/01-CSS-minutes.html Bert
18:01:03 <Bert> rrsagent, make logs public
18:01:51 <Bert> Chair: Peter Linss
18:02:04 <Bert> Meeting: CSS WG telcon
18:02:41 <Bert> rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/01-CSS-minutes.html Bert
18:02:59 <Zakim> -??P30
18:04:29 <Zakim> -Tal
18:04:31 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:04:32 <Zakim> Attendees were plinss_, Tal, David_Baron, kojiishi, bradk, smfr, fantasai, Bert, ChrisL, arronei, TabAtkins, SteveZ, howcome
18:15:13 <anne> anne has joined #css
18:41:38 <miketaylr> miketaylr has joined #css
18:54:57 <danielweck> danielweck has left #css
19:08:31 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
19:13:01 <szilles> szilles has joined #css
20:01:24 <Zakim> Zakim has left #CSS
20:45:52 <dydz> dydz has joined #css
21:38:01 <karl> Bert: do you know if there are archives on the Web of the winter mailing list? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/1996AprJun/0001
21:51:24 <howcome> howcome has left #css
22:20:25 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
22:20:40 <smfr> fantasai: i'm confused by http://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/fantasai/submitted/css2.1/backgrounds/background-intrinsic-004.htm
22:20:51 <smfr> (which fails in webkit)
22:59:20 <homata> homata has joined #CSS
23:14:21 <myakura> myakura has joined #css