19:54:49 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y 19:54:49 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/29-html-a11y-irc 19:54:51 RRSAgent, make logs world 19:54:51 Zakim has joined #html-a11y 19:54:53 Zakim, this will be 2119 19:54:53 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)3:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes 19:54:54 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 19:54:54 Date: 29 November 2010 19:55:07 JAWS should recognize the checkbox 19:55:27 RRSAgent, make logs public 19:55:40 it does -- it reports the checkbox's label, the form control and form control state 19:55:55 meeting: W3C Canvas Accessibility subteam 19:56:12 you should not need a form around it for that to work 19:56:26 If it does need this they have a bug 19:56:35 no, not a FORM element, but a role="form" for the checkboxes 19:56:42 WAI_PFWG(A11Y)3:00PM has now started 19:56:49 +Gregory_Rosmaita 19:56:52 that makes no sense 19:57:09 scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita 19:57:12 scribenick: oedipus 19:57:21 +Rich 20:01:50 +Charles_Pritchard 20:03:09 Downchuck has joined #html-a11y 20:03:24 TOPIC: Demo 20:03:42 CP: can fake some things - hitting certain checkbox would cause to do a select range -- more of a unit test 20:03:50 GJR: yes, add things incrementally 20:04:03 CP: test of API without having to know where to paint things 20:04:17 CP: ways we can start from ground and test it out 20:04:36 RS: need UA vendors to make change or create java applet to move caret 20:04:56 CP: like i did for focusable, can do for demo purposes --- need to compare cross-browsers 20:05:31 CP: for IE9, can make demo that doesn't need to have rich text editing ability but demo it will work -- draw caret in x y position -- just draw caret at appropriate blink rate and place 20:05:44 CP: hooking up to mouse right now not issue for testing purposes 20:07:05 TOPIC 1: Review Charles' change to in HTML 5 20:07:20 CP: filed sub-tree with WebKit -- will try and push with Chrome 20:07:35 RS: defect logged against FF, but probably won't make for FF4 20:07:47 GJR: DBolter told me FF4 API frozen 20:07:53 HTML Canvas Element: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2010OctDec/att-0050/HTML_Canvas_Element.html 20:08:46 CP: stuck in sentence -- none of elements in shadow DOM should be initializaed on OnPageLoad -- if IFRAME has src won't be loaded at window load -- need review by FO 20:08:54 RS: that would go under which defect? 20:09:01 CP: knowing which elements are to be supported 20:09:18 CP: don't be initialized if don't need be rather than list of elements 20:09:32 plus 1 to CP don't be initialized 20:10:57 TOPIC 2: Review of Charles updated draft change proposal to Canvas 2D API 20:11:01 HTML Canvas 2D Context: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2010OctDec/att-0050/HTML_Canvas_2D_Context.html 20:11:16 CP: primary change had caret xy position based on text directionality 20:11:32 RS: don't have problem with coordinate -- if selecting text and going to right, it is last position 20:11:52 CP: understand --don't know if needs to be defined -- anyone programming will notice cursor placement problems 20:12:18 RS: want to ensure that on a Mac, don't have caret tracking while doing selection -- had when selecting text going in certain direction, so is last thing selected 20:12:21 CP: gotcha 20:12:30 RS: if going to the left, last on left, if going to right... 20:12:37 CP: when text selected, not caret 20:12:39 RS: right 20:12:50 CP: that is where caret is drawn so needs to be accessible 20:13:03 CP: kinda covered by note saying last drawn position must be tracked 20:13:37 CP: understand what RS intended now -- thought was related to single char 20:13:43 RS: last char that got selected 20:13:46 CP: exactly 20:13:53 RS: take another pass at it? 20:14:03 RS: trying to get legal to look at code 20:14:15 CP: will take another tweak -- if have any other feedback let me know 20:14:20 TOPIC 3: Mozilla's refusal to supply the API needed in http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11328 20:14:31 RS: pixel coordinates x and y pixel API 20:14:41 CP: didn't want accessible to untrusted environment 20:14:47 CP: when installed as extention 20:14:51 RS: how do you mean? 20:15:07 CP: trusted extention -- plug-in -- put under security issue, though not 20:15:13 davidb has joined #html-a11y 20:15:25 CP: trusted script usually because of security or very proprietary 20:16:04 CP: not available to normal web scripting environment -- didn't want people to tinker with zoom -- not tinkering, but being aware things are bigger -- diddn't want because said programmers wouldn't use correctly 20:16:07 RS: in IE 20:16:20 CP: don't care -- not going to move on it without mozilla support 20:16:30 RS: if author wants to change view of canvas, what is problem? 20:17:49 CP: someone will misinterpret screen metrics to implement own zoom effects -- use CSS zoom rather than onClick zoom -- based on idea, not going to give web devs one more thing to do wrong -- countered that good documentation would counter that; is a11y issue that affects people now, and have a proposal, but dead end -- is trying to use CSS media queries, but don't know if can get single... 20:17:50 ...value from media queries 20:17:54 RS: email? 20:17:59 CP: on what wg list 20:18:05 RS: will talk with david bolter 20:18:27 CP: will send out summaries to try and get more than 1 person's attention on it 20:19:07 davidb, can you help push moziilla on bug 11328? 20:19:35 RS: if documented in HTML5 spec, that would be right answer 20:19:47 TOPIC 4: Implementation of Canvas 2D API context changes for non Rich Text Editing scenarios 20:19:55 RS: i'm working to get approval on that 20:20:04 RS: need FrankO for HTML elements that are allowable 20:20:11 RS: CP does your change address that? 20:20:12 oedipus, what bug database? 20:20:34 davidb, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11328 20:20:51 CP: better approach is to keep src from initializing, not to have list of elements 20:21:00 TOPIC 6: Steps to assess what HTML elements are allowable in the shadow DOM 20:21:13 RS: need to get cross-UA support 20:21:19 TOPIC 8: What are the next steps to address Rich Text Editing in HTML 5? 20:21:28 RS: trying to get ok from attorneys to work on this 20:21:54 RS: have to write API addition for grammar and spell checking to get ranges 20:22:31 CP: brought that up in WHAT WG -- got response from most UA vendors -- trying to push to get something out of them, but no spell checking a11y from DOM on basis of privacy concerns 20:22:36 RS: that is fallacious 20:23:40 CP: contenteditable -- addressed on own grounds -- trying to find middle ground -- not going to allow full API in untrusted scope -- if added password to list of suggested spellings, that password might be exposed via brute force, so any addition to dictionary is private 20:24:07 CP: raised "getSpellingRange" -- replied that going to expose user's language and their OS -- replied already have that exposed 20:24:14 RS: can get ranges for selectoin 20:24:42 CP: worried if have system dictionary and says something is misspelled, can tell what lang dictionary user is using -- exposing what natural language user preferes 20:24:49 RS: just asking for where spelling is 20:25:01 CP: for example color versus colour 20:25:50 CP: can we at least get range? 20:25:58 CP: even with range, they said security issue 20:26:19 CP: CSS proposal for highlighting -- without ranges, can only highlight -- can't make bigger because don't know range 20:26:58 CP: why not open to discussion so don't have separate APIs or use system prompt and make that a function, but so far, been met with negativity -- trying to make problem as small as possible 20:27:34 RS: need to make proposal for it, submit it, and say "this is what we need for someone with low vision to operate a canvas RTE for spelling and grammar errors" and let them say "can't be done" if that is their opinioin 20:29:48 CP: contenteditable is the key 20:30:02 CP: spelling a defect in contenteditable, not in each UA 20:30:32 GJR notes still needs to route mouse cursor to speech cursor to get right-click dictionary entries in FF 20:33:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 20:35:08 RS: where is this defined? 20:35:20 CP: MSDN has APIs 20:35:28 RS: HTML5 APIs for getSelection 20:35:34 CP: think is under ranges 20:36:06 CP: API for text field selections 20:36:12 CP: single textarea API 20:36:15 RS: link? 20:36:19 http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/association-of-controls-and-forms.html#textFieldSelection 20:36:40 http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Traversal-Range/ranges.html 20:37:16 http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/association-of-controls-and-forms.html#textFieldSelection 20:37:31 RS: need to add for grammar 20:37:40 RS: use ranges for grammar 20:37:44 CP: makes sense 20:37:54 RS: getSpellingRanges and getGrammarRanges 20:38:06 TOPIC: To Do 20:38:15 RS: will write change proposal for that section 20:39:03 http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/webappapis.html#webappapis 20:39:25 http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/editing.html#contenteditable 20:39:30 CP: leave off to UA and DOM 20:39:35 RS: need one for selection, as well 20:39:49 CP: "UA should offer way to move images..." 20:40:02 CP: about non-editable elements inside hosts -- drag'n'drop images 20:40:30 CP: trying to keep contenteditable entirely within UA -- will send summary of proposals to RS to work with 20:40:40 RS: in contenteditable says up to UA to get selection? 20:40:43 CP: basically 20:40:47 RS: should or must? 20:40:57 CP: not uppercase must, but prose must 20:41:19 RS: we can just add text to do selection and query for ranges of grammatical and spelling errors 20:41:48 CP: using GetRanges or getSelection -- easier to do on a given element -- either would work -- from HTML5 viewpoint, that is all UA side and not exposed to scripting environment 20:41:58 RS: should be allowed ability to get selection? 20:42:27 CP: could make a selection, don't talk about getting a selection -- can make selection with KeyDown events -- completely undefined save for drag and drop 20:42:53 CP: input method editor with spelling, grammar, etc. entirely up to UA and should not be scripted seems to be the spec's leaning 20:42:58 RS: work on change for that 20:44:11 RS: could provide annotation/non-visible attribute (grammarerror tag) for elements that say this is beginning of grammatical range 20:44:20 CP: a tag is technically semantic... 20:44:39 CP: what about spelling or grammar tag so is marked up is reasonable to have in HTML5 spec 20:45:05 RS: that way, author of page can mark spelling or grammatical error -- write own grammar or spelling checker for canvas 20:45:16 CP: applications -- canvas is a method 20:45:41 CP: would allow author to convey spelling mistake in text and would look/render same as other spelling mistakes 20:46:29 RS: like to run this by frankO -- don't expose what is inside contenteditable section, then allow author to annotate in markup beginning of a grammatical error section, go through DOM to mark -- could then style it and do all sorts of stuff 20:46:33 CP: absolutely 20:46:41 davidb, thank you 20:47:04 RS: propose a few new tags until more malleable on contentditable 20:49:22 [adjourn] 20:49:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 20:49:57 RS: will ask FO what route to travel: work on contenteditable or introduce spelling and grammar tags 20:50:09 CP: could do in ARIA -- aria-spellingerror 20:50:17 RS: put on list for ARIA.next 20:50:39 CP: spelling tag a good idea -- it is just a tag -- whatever styling one is using, use on this span 20:52:42 -Charles_Pritchard 20:52:46 -Gregory_Rosmaita 20:52:47 WAI_PFWG(A11Y)3:00PM has ended 20:52:49 Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, Rich, Charles_Pritchard 20:52:55 Zakim has left #html-a11y 20:53:58 chair: Rich 20:54:29 present+ Gregory_Rosmaita,Rich,Charles_Pritchard 20:54:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 20:55:34 s/TOPIC 3: Mozilla's refusal/TOPIC: Mozilla's refusal/ 20:55:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 20:56:23 s/TOPIC 4: Implementation of Canvas 2D API context changes for non Rich Text Editing scenarios/TOPIC: Implementation of Canvas 2D API context changes for non Rich Text Editing scenarios/ 20:56:44 s/TOPIC 6: Steps to assess what HTML elements are allowable in the shadow DOM/TOPIC: Steps to assess what HTML elements are allowable in the shadow DOM/ 20:57:00 s/TOPIC 8: What are the next steps to address Rich Text Editing in HTML 5?/TOPIC: What are the next steps to address Rich Text Editing in HTML 5?/ 20:57:25 s/[adjourn]// 20:57:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 20:58:10 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2010OctDec/0050.html 20:58:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 20:59:45 meeting: HTML Accessibility TF Canvas Sub-Team 20:59:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 21:00:22 s/JAWS should recognize the checkbox// 21:00:31 s/it does -- it reports the checkbox's label, the form control and form control state// 21:00:40 s/you should not need a form around it for that to work// 21:00:51 s/If it does need this they have a bug// 21:01:00 s/no, not a FORM element, but a role="form" for the checkboxes// 21:01:08 s/that makes no sense// 21:01:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 21:02:02 s/TOPIC 1: Review Charles' change to in HTML 5/TOPIC: Review Charles' change to in HTML 5/ 21:02:25 s/TOPIC 2: Review of Charles updated draft change proposal to Canvas 2D API/TOPIC: Review of Charles updated draft change proposal to Canvas 2D API/ 21:02:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 21:50:55 silvia has joined #html-a11y 22:12:38 MichaelC_ has joined #html-a11y