14:40:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lld
14:40:26 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-irc
14:40:41 <emma> zakim, this will be LLD
14:40:41 <Zakim> ok, emma; I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 20 minutes
14:42:14 <emma> rrsagent, bookmark
14:42:14 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-irc#T14-42-14
14:42:35 <emma> Meeting: LLD XG
14:42:51 <emma> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Nov/0122.html
14:43:09 <emma> Chair: Emma
14:43:32 <emma> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/11/18-lld-minutes.html
14:43:59 <emma> Regrets: Ray, Tom, Ed
14:44:50 <emma> Regrets+: Peter, Jeff, Kevin, Marcia, Anette, Andras, Lars, Martin
14:45:40 <markva> markva has joined #lld
14:45:50 <emma> rrsagent, please make record public
14:46:29 <aconstan> aconstan has joined #lld
14:47:15 <aconstan> aconstan has left #lld
14:50:06 <emma> rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:50:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-minutes.html emma
14:50:14 <antoine> antoine has joined #lld
14:54:07 <Zakim> INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has now started
14:54:08 <AlexanderH> AlexanderH has joined #lld
14:54:14 <Zakim> +??P0
14:54:27 <antoine> zakim, ??P0 is me
14:54:27 <Zakim> +antoine; got it
14:55:15 <Zakim> +emma
14:55:36 <GordonD> GordonD has joined #lld
14:57:05 <fsasaki> fsasaki has joined #lld
14:58:53 <Zakim> +??P2
14:59:12 <antoine> zakim, ??P2 is GordonD
14:59:12 <Zakim> +GordonD; got it
14:59:21 <Zakim> +[VrijeUni]
14:59:29 <ww> ww has joined #lld
14:59:34 <antoine> zakim, VrijeUni is markva
14:59:34 <Zakim> +markva; got it
14:59:58 <Zakim> +??P4
15:00:12 <antoine> zakim, ??P4 is AlexanderH
15:00:12 <Zakim> +AlexanderH; got it
15:00:28 <antoine> zakim, who is here?
15:00:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see antoine, emma, GordonD (muted), markva, AlexanderH
15:00:29 <Zakim> On IRC I see ww, fsasaki, GordonD, AlexanderH, antoine, markva, RRSAgent, Zakim, emma, danbri, digikim, edsu
15:00:35 <Zakim> +??P5
15:00:41 <monica> monica has joined #lld
15:00:52 <kcoyle> kcoyle has joined #lld
15:00:53 <Zakim> +??P6
15:01:00 <ww> Zakim: ??P6 is me
15:01:02 <markva> zakim, mute markva
15:01:02 <Zakim> markva should now be muted
15:01:13 <kai> kai has joined #lld
15:01:13 <Zakim> +Jodi
15:01:16 <ww> Zakim: P6 is me
15:01:23 <jodi> jodi has joined #LLD
15:01:25 <ww> Zakim, ??P6 is me
15:01:25 <Zakim> +ww; got it
15:02:03 <emma> zakim, who's here ?
15:02:03 <Zakim> + +44.194.346.aaaa
15:02:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see antoine, emma, GordonD (muted), markva (muted), AlexanderH, felix (muted), ww, Jodi, +44.194.346.aaaa
15:02:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see jodi, kai, kcoyle, monica, ww, fsasaki, GordonD, AlexanderH, antoine, markva, RRSAgent, Zakim, emma, danbri, digikim, edsu
15:02:15 <antoine> zakim, aaaa is monica
15:02:15 <Zakim> +monica; got it
15:02:47 <marcia> marcia has joined #lld
15:02:53 <Zakim> +??P10
15:03:04 <antoine> zakim, ??P10 is kcoyle
15:03:04 <Zakim> +kcoyle; got it
15:03:14 <emma> Scribe: Monica
15:03:24 <emma> scribenick: monica
15:04:31 <Zakim> +marcia
15:04:41 <monica> PROPOSED: To accept minutes of previous telecon:     http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/11/18-lld-minutes.html
15:04:53 <antoine> Topic: Admin
15:05:17 <monica> ACCEPTED
15:05:19 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:05:30 <antoine> zakim, IPcaller is kai
15:05:30 <Zakim> +kai; got it
15:06:04 <monica> Topic PITTSBURGH MEETING - RESULTS
15:06:19 <emma> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/FinalReportOutline
15:06:24 <monica> Emma: Outline of the report
15:06:51 <monica> ?? has asked for outline of report
15:07:13 <monica> ..this is very early draft in early stages everyone welcome to comment
15:07:14 <antoine> s/??/some partcipants
15:07:17 <ww> Zakim, mute me
15:07:17 <Zakim> ww should now be muted
15:07:36 <Zakim> +??P13
15:07:41 <digikim> P13 is me
15:07:52 <ww> Zakim, ??P13 is digikim
15:07:52 <Zakim> +digikim; got it
15:07:53 <monica> usecases and requirements extracted from UC will be in section of report
15:08:01 <digikim> ww: thanks, never remember the syntax :)
15:08:18 <emma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Nov/0120.html
15:08:24 <monica> ....we need to figure out what it will look like
15:08:27 <ww> np. me neither. took me several tries when i logged in
15:08:59 <jodi> zakim, who is making noise?
15:08:59 <monica> \me too much keyboard noise
15:09:06 <markva> I hear someone typing; cannot hear discussion well
15:09:11 <Zakim> jodi, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: antoine (13%), emma (30%)
15:09:15 <antoine> zakim, please mute me
15:09:15 <Zakim> antoine should now be muted
15:09:17 <Zakim> -GordonD
15:09:28 <monica> .. next report section - available data
15:09:43 <Zakim> + +49.173.609.aabb
15:09:47 <markva> q+
15:10:07 <antoine> zakin, aabb is jneubert
15:10:31 <Zakim> +??P2
15:11:04 <antoine> zakim, ??P2 is GordonD
15:11:05 <Zakim> I already had ??P2 as gordon, antoine
15:11:22 <emma> ack markva
15:11:26 <antoine> zakim, gordon is GordonD
15:11:26 <Zakim> +GordonD; got it
15:11:27 <ww> Zakim, gordon is GordonD
15:11:28 <Zakim> +GordonD; got it
15:11:39 <monica> markva q about terminology
15:11:55 <monica> ...'vocabulary' a loaded term
15:12:17 <monica> ...element sets proposed for things like FRBR
15:12:28 <monica> ...is htis the time to make the decision
15:12:36 <AlexanderH> +1 value vocabularies
15:12:40 <antoine> at least in the report what is aimed is "metadata element set"
15:12:49 <monica> ...limited number of people joined in the discussion
15:12:54 <antoine> ... in section "vocabularies"
15:13:00 <monica> ...what is the process for coming to a decision?
15:13:10 <marcia> FRBR is a conceptual model
15:13:42 <monica> ...discussion seems to be spread across multiple thread
15:13:50 <jodi>  	Re: AW: SemWeb terminology page is one of the other threads
15:14:00 <kcoyle> there is also a frbr ontology that has been defined in a number of formats
15:14:09 <monica> emma: placeholder in report for terminology
15:14:13 <kcoyle> there is frbroo, frbrer, and frbr core
15:14:26 <marcia> conceptual model and data model should be differently identified
15:14:36 <monica> ...sees discussion on irc invites contribs
15:15:14 <monica> marcia: conceptual models are models, implementations are different
15:15:25 <monica> ...original FRBR is still conceptual model
15:15:30 <AlexanderH> q+
15:15:35 <kcoyle> they are -- they have been defined in rdf
15:15:41 <emma> ack alex
15:15:43 <monica> emma: once in RDF would they be vocabs?
15:16:07 <markva> +1 Alexander
15:16:22 <monica> ??: discussion is more about separation between value vocabs and element sets
15:16:29 <antoine> s/??/AlexanderH
15:16:37 <GordonD> Vocabularies derived from conceptual models can be used in same way as those derived from data models - just expect conceptual models to be broader or less detailed
15:16:38 <kcoyle> yes, that is the discussion
15:16:52 <antoine> q+
15:16:58 <emma> ack ant
15:17:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-minutes.html fsasaki
15:17:34 <Zakim> -digikim
15:17:42 <monica> antoine: points made that ?
15:17:47 <AlexanderH> but there are properties that don't derive from models i.e. FOAF
15:18:00 <Zakim> +??P13
15:18:04 <markva> there is an implicit model in docs of FOAF
15:18:06 <digikim> Zakim: P13 is digikim
15:18:07 <monica> emma: agress with AlexanderH
15:18:17 <digikim> Zakim, P13 is digikim
15:18:17 <Zakim> sorry, digikim, I do not recognize a party named 'P13'
15:18:22 <markva> I think model/implementation discussion not relevant here
15:18:30 <digikim> Zakim, ??P13 is digikim
15:18:30 <Zakim> +digikim; got it
15:18:40 <monica> AlexanderH: make distinction that conceptual models are models and have been implemented
15:19:13 <monica> emma: not make decision now but on mailing list
15:19:24 <monica> emma: back to outline of report
15:19:31 <danbri> there certainly was some thinking behind the FOAF design; it wasn't arbitrary, although it evolved bit by bit. But FOAF isn't an RDFification of some pre-existing, written down 'model'...
15:19:34 <antoine> s/points made that/the report should only mention conceptual models through their implementation as metadata vocabularies
15:19:37 <monica> emma: next section recommendations
15:20:09 <monica> ...tried to organise outcomes of F2F mtg into sections
15:20:32 <monica> ...again very early draft to give idea of how to organise report, non-definitive
15:20:43 <monica> ...everybody please look at report outline
15:20:52 <GordonD> Why say "LLdata should be produced using the FR's as domain model."? There are other domain models, eg ISBD ...
15:20:54 <markva> is an action?
15:21:08 <monica> ...we need feedback on early draft to move forward
15:21:44 <monica> ...any comments?
15:21:45 <antoine> @GordonD: good point to make in your future remarks on the outline :-)
15:21:45 <markva> sounds good
15:22:25 <monica> emma: feedback welcome on list discuss further on future call
15:22:33 <monica> TOPIC: USECASES
15:22:51 <monica> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/UseCases
15:23:05 <monica> emma: invites comments from cluster owners
15:23:08 <markva> q+
15:23:14 <emma> ack markva
15:23:32 <monica> markv: no further progress to report
15:23:45 <monica> ...emails suggested scenarios need to be extracted
15:24:10 <monica> emma: idea is to suggest how it could look like in report
15:24:25 <monica> ...how to tranform use cases into something readable for report
15:24:28 <GordonD> Gordon and Martin yet to start on their cluster - but expect to make good progress after we get started ;-)
15:24:32 <monica> mark: no time to look at that yet
15:24:46 <antoine> idea of abstract scenarios was also mentioned in previous calls here
15:24:55 <monica> ??: is this agreed what is the status?
15:25:03 <antoine> s/??/markva
15:25:05 <monica> emma: not decided mentioned on previous call
15:25:49 <monica> ...need feedback from clusters if it is a good idea
15:25:59 <GordonD> +1 for abstraction
15:26:00 <monica> markv: agrees it is a good idea to give more abstraction
15:26:00 <antoine> +1 with abstracting
15:26:16 <monica> s/markv/markva/
15:26:35 <monica> emma: in archive cluster we have started to look at this and work in that direction
15:26:47 <markva> zakim, mute me
15:26:47 <Zakim> markva should now be muted
15:27:12 <antoine> regrets+ Martin
15:27:26 <markva> hard time hearing
15:27:50 <kcoyle> we have new goals; we need to decide whether to add them to the goals page
15:28:01 <kcoyle> or to create a new page, or a new section on that page
15:28:01 <markva> great!!
15:28:05 <monica> emma: we tried to make goals fit ones from mark's cluster, but they were quite different
15:28:12 <monica> ...we need to add new page
15:28:26 <emma> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Goals
15:28:55 <antoine> +1 with that process!
15:28:59 <monica> s/new page/new goals to teh page/
15:29:45 <monica> ... more description for goals needed
15:29:52 <monica> ...any otehr feedback?
15:30:02 <monica> s/otehr/other/
15:30:14 <markva> yep, hard to define goals clearly, generic and specific at same time
15:30:27 <monica> TOPIC: USE CASE ACTIONS
15:30:37 <monica> q+
15:30:55 <emma> ack monica
15:30:57 <antoine> scribe:antoine
15:31:06 <antoine> scribenick:antoin
15:31:11 <antoine> scribenick:antoine
15:31:30 <antoine> monica: my colleagues at JISC couldn't make it for today
15:31:39 <antoine> ... but they're happy to discuss on the public list
15:31:46 <Zakim> +??P15
15:32:39 <antoine> monica: what is the interest of the group here?
15:32:53 <antoine> ... how JISC gathers information? Something else?
15:33:17 <antoine> ... this will help identify who would come and talk about the JISC work
15:33:18 <jodi> for me the interest is how they gathered the use cases
15:33:27 <Asaf> Asaf has joined #lld
15:33:34 <antoine> emma: interest in on UCs they gathered on the web site
15:33:34 <jodi> and whether they have any suggestions for comparing our use cases to theirs
15:33:54 <jodi> (I'd like to make sure we don't have systematic bias in how we've come up with them, by doing them the same way.)
15:34:15 <antoine> monica: ok, I'll see if someone (??) if he can answers questions
15:34:37 <monica> owen stephens is our contact 
15:34:38 <antoine> ... easier however if discussion start on list for better scoping
15:34:50 <antoine> ACTION: Antoine to ask Monica to lead discussion about JISC use cases at http://obd.jisc.ac.uk/navigate [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/18-lld-minutes.html#action03]
15:34:52 <antoine> --DONE
15:35:18 <antoine> ACTION: Monica and JISC colleagues to introduce and discuss JISC work on next call
15:35:38 <emma> scribe: Monica
15:35:44 <emma> scribenick: monica
15:35:44 <antoine> scribenick:monica
15:37:04 <monica> TOPIC:wikipages
15:37:09 <emma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Nov/0107.html
15:37:12 <antoine> ACTION: William: to summarize options for using CKAN to the list, before next concall [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/11-lld-minutes.html#action01]
15:37:13 <antoine> --DONE
15:37:14 <ww> Zakim, unmute me
15:37:14 <Zakim> ww should no longer be muted
15:37:15 <ww> q+
15:37:22 <emma> ack ww
15:37:33 <monica> william: reiterate what is in email
15:37:50 <monica> for people to curate group people need to login to CKAN
15:38:02 <monica> ...inform ww and kcoyle about their openID
15:38:15 <monica> ...could we all do this?
15:38:18 <jodi> I'm interested, need to login, etc. :)
15:38:22 <antoine> +1
15:38:26 <Asaf> long-term, maybe.  Right now, quite over-committed.
15:38:26 <monica> emma: volunteers to curate CKAN 
15:38:38 <monica> ...jodi, antoine
15:38:44 <GordonD> +1
15:39:11 <monica> ACTION: volunteers to send login information to william waite to curate CKAN
15:39:20 <ww> Zakim, mute me
15:39:20 <Zakim> ww should now be muted
15:39:23 <antoine> q+
15:39:31 <ksclarke> ksclarke has joined #lld
15:39:40 <emma> ack ant
15:39:43 <monica> TOPIC UPCOMING FACE-TO-FACE MEETING AT SWIB10 IN COLOGNE
15:40:06 <monica> antoine: in ww's mail there was a proposed strategy
15:40:24 <monica> relation between bibliographic and LOD group
15:40:30 <jodi> +1
15:40:42 <ksclarke> ksclarke has joined #lld
15:40:43 <monica> emma: idea is to create an LLD group
15:41:30 <ww> Zakim, unmute me
15:41:30 <Zakim> ww should no longer be muted
15:41:31 <monica> ...was there feedback on the list?
15:41:52 <monica> ww: there was a question about relationship between LOD and LODCloud
15:42:04 <monica> ...LODCloud has more requirements e.g. quality
15:42:12 <monica> ...quality checked manually
15:42:17 <antoine> q+
15:42:21 <monica> ...that was extent of questions
15:42:39 <emma> ack antoine
15:42:46 <monica> anotoine: no objection to suggestion
15:43:03 <monica> ...propose to resolve to follow strategy as suggested by ww
15:43:35 <Zakim> -??P15
15:43:47 <antoine> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Nov/0107.html
15:43:58 <monica> RESOLVE: follow strategy of creating LLD group for CKAN http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Nov/0107.html
15:44:24 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:44:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-minutes.html antoine
15:44:35 <ww> Zakim, mute me
15:44:35 <Zakim> ww should now be muted
15:44:38 <emma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Nov/0128.html
15:44:40 <Asaf> Zakim, IPcaller is me
15:44:40 <Zakim> +Asaf; got it
15:44:49 <monica> TOPIC UPCOMING FACE-TO-FACE MEETING AT SWIB10 IN COLOGNE
15:44:53 <markva> zakim, mute me
15:44:53 <Zakim> markva was already muted, markva
15:44:56 <monica> emma: agenda has been sent
15:45:09 <monica> antoine: an informal meeting
15:45:21 <monica> ...entire group copied for information
15:45:48 <monica> ...have informal discussion, continue discussion from last weeks
15:46:13 <monica> ...first topic use case clusters
15:46:22 <monica> second topic final report outline
15:46:49 <monica> ...would people be interested in remote participation?
15:47:07 <monica> emma: is it possible to provide remote participation facility?
15:47:21 <markva> background noise?
15:47:26 <markva> ppl talking
15:47:26 <monica> ...who is interested is it worth doing?
15:47:43 <monica> antoine: annette is not here
15:47:57 <emma> zakim, who makes noise ?
15:47:57 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, emma.
15:48:03 <antoine> zakim, who is making noise
15:48:03 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is making noise', antoine
15:48:05 <antoine> zakim, who is making noise?
15:48:09 <emma> zakim, who is noisy ?
15:48:19 <Zakim> antoine, listening for 13 seconds I heard sound from the following: antoine (8%), Asaf (79%), joachim (79%)
15:48:25 <emma> zakim, mute asaf
15:48:25 <Zakim> Asaf should now be muted
15:48:31 <Zakim> emma, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: antoine (32%), Asaf (44%), joachim (59%)
15:49:28 <monica> antoine: is it worth to make the effort to find the phone
15:49:49 <monica> emma: irc implies need to scribe which is more complicated than summarising the call
15:50:14 <monica> ??: there is a chance to have microphone on the phone will let us know
15:50:24 <antoine> s/??/jneubert
15:50:33 <antoine> q+
15:50:39 <monica> emma: who else would liek to attend on irc or phone?
15:50:41 <emma> ack ant
15:50:51 <monica> ...not alot of interest
15:51:08 <monica> antoine: not the intention to force people to participate
15:51:24 <monica> ...but anyone wanting to join is welcome but keep it simple
15:51:43 <monica> emma: any other business
15:51:56 <Asaf> Has any of you been in touch with the Interedition group?
15:52:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-minutes.html antoine
15:52:24 <Asaf> I just got back from an Interedition meeting in Pisa.
15:52:34 <Asaf> They are not too aware of linked data.
15:52:43 <Asaf> I tried to get them interested.
15:52:46 <Asaf> (still a bit noisy here)
15:52:50 <Asaf> (probably better to type_)
15:53:17 <Asaf> So they're doing digital editions of manuscripts.  I'll add something about it on the wiki, yes.
15:53:20 <Asaf> yes.
15:53:32 <Zakim> -AlexanderH
15:53:35 <Zakim> -Jodi
15:53:36 <markva> bye!
15:53:37 <digikim> thanks
15:53:37 <Zakim> -joachim
15:53:37 <jodi> jodi has left #LLD
15:53:38 <Zakim> -kai
15:53:40 <Zakim> -GordonD
15:53:40 <Zakim> -felix
15:53:41 <Zakim> -ww
15:53:41 <Zakim> -Asaf
15:53:42 <Zakim> -digikim
15:53:44 <Zakim> -kcoyle
15:53:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-minutes.html antoine
15:53:48 <emma> adjourned
15:53:52 <antoine> zakim, list attendees
15:53:52 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been antoine, emma, GordonD, markva, AlexanderH, felix, Jodi, ww, +44.194.346.aaaa, monica, kcoyle, marcia, kai, digikim, +49.173.609.aabb,
15:53:52 <markva> zakim, unmute me
15:53:55 <Zakim> ... joachim, Asaf
15:53:55 <Zakim> markva should no longer be muted
15:53:56 <Zakim> -marcia
15:53:59 <ww> thanks everyone
15:55:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-minutes.html antoine
15:55:43 <Zakim> -markva
15:57:51 <Zakim> -monica
15:58:03 <Zakim> -emma
15:58:08 <antoine> zakim, bye
15:58:08 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were antoine, emma, GordonD, markva, AlexanderH, felix, Jodi, ww, +44.194.346.aaaa, monica, kcoyle, marcia, kai, digikim, +49.173.609.aabb,
15:58:08 <Zakim> Zakim has left #lld
15:58:11 <Zakim> ... joachim, Asaf
15:58:32 <antoine> rrsagent, bye
15:58:32 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-actions.rdf :
15:58:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Antoine to ask Monica to lead discussion about JISC use cases at http://obd.jisc.ac.uk/navigate [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/18-lld-minutes.html#action03] [1]
15:58:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-irc#T15-34-50
15:58:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Monica and JISC colleagues to introduce and discuss JISC work on next call [2]
15:58:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-irc#T15-35-18
15:58:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: William: to summarize options for using CKAN to the list, before next concall [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/11-lld-minutes.html#action01] [3]
15:58:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-irc#T15-37-12
15:58:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: volunteers to send login information to william waite to curate CKAN [4]
15:58:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-irc#T15-39-11