IRC log of lld on 2010-11-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:40:26 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #lld
14:40:26 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-irc
14:40:41 [emma]
zakim, this will be LLD
14:40:41 [Zakim]
ok, emma; I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 20 minutes
14:42:14 [emma]
rrsagent, bookmark
14:42:14 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-irc#T14-42-14
14:42:35 [emma]
Meeting: LLD XG
14:42:51 [emma]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Nov/0122.html
14:43:09 [emma]
Chair: Emma
14:43:32 [emma]
Previous: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/11/18-lld-minutes.html
14:43:59 [emma]
Regrets: Ray, Tom, Ed
14:44:50 [emma]
Regrets+: Peter, Jeff, Kevin, Marcia, Anette, Andras, Lars, Martin
14:45:40 [markva]
markva has joined #lld
14:45:50 [emma]
rrsagent, please make record public
14:46:29 [aconstan]
aconstan has joined #lld
14:47:15 [aconstan]
aconstan has left #lld
14:50:06 [emma]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:50:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-minutes.html emma
14:50:14 [antoine]
antoine has joined #lld
14:54:07 [Zakim]
INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has now started
14:54:08 [AlexanderH]
AlexanderH has joined #lld
14:54:14 [Zakim]
+??P0
14:54:27 [antoine]
zakim, ??P0 is me
14:54:27 [Zakim]
+antoine; got it
14:55:15 [Zakim]
+emma
14:55:36 [GordonD]
GordonD has joined #lld
14:57:05 [fsasaki]
fsasaki has joined #lld
14:58:53 [Zakim]
+??P2
14:59:12 [antoine]
zakim, ??P2 is GordonD
14:59:12 [Zakim]
+GordonD; got it
14:59:21 [Zakim]
+[VrijeUni]
14:59:29 [ww]
ww has joined #lld
14:59:34 [antoine]
zakim, VrijeUni is markva
14:59:34 [Zakim]
+markva; got it
14:59:58 [Zakim]
+??P4
15:00:12 [antoine]
zakim, ??P4 is AlexanderH
15:00:12 [Zakim]
+AlexanderH; got it
15:00:28 [antoine]
zakim, who is here?
15:00:28 [Zakim]
On the phone I see antoine, emma, GordonD (muted), markva, AlexanderH
15:00:29 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ww, fsasaki, GordonD, AlexanderH, antoine, markva, RRSAgent, Zakim, emma, danbri, digikim, edsu
15:00:35 [Zakim]
+??P5
15:00:41 [monica]
monica has joined #lld
15:00:52 [kcoyle]
kcoyle has joined #lld
15:00:53 [Zakim]
+??P6
15:01:00 [ww]
Zakim: ??P6 is me
15:01:02 [markva]
zakim, mute markva
15:01:02 [Zakim]
markva should now be muted
15:01:13 [kai]
kai has joined #lld
15:01:13 [Zakim]
+Jodi
15:01:16 [ww]
Zakim: P6 is me
15:01:23 [jodi]
jodi has joined #LLD
15:01:25 [ww]
Zakim, ??P6 is me
15:01:25 [Zakim]
+ww; got it
15:02:03 [emma]
zakim, who's here ?
15:02:03 [Zakim]
+ +44.194.346.aaaa
15:02:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see antoine, emma, GordonD (muted), markva (muted), AlexanderH, felix (muted), ww, Jodi, +44.194.346.aaaa
15:02:07 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jodi, kai, kcoyle, monica, ww, fsasaki, GordonD, AlexanderH, antoine, markva, RRSAgent, Zakim, emma, danbri, digikim, edsu
15:02:15 [antoine]
zakim, aaaa is monica
15:02:15 [Zakim]
+monica; got it
15:02:47 [marcia]
marcia has joined #lld
15:02:53 [Zakim]
+??P10
15:03:04 [antoine]
zakim, ??P10 is kcoyle
15:03:04 [Zakim]
+kcoyle; got it
15:03:14 [emma]
Scribe: Monica
15:03:24 [emma]
scribenick: monica
15:04:31 [Zakim]
+marcia
15:04:41 [monica]
PROPOSED: To accept minutes of previous telecon: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/11/18-lld-minutes.html
15:04:53 [antoine]
Topic: Admin
15:05:17 [monica]
ACCEPTED
15:05:19 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:05:30 [antoine]
zakim, IPcaller is kai
15:05:30 [Zakim]
+kai; got it
15:06:04 [monica]
Topic PITTSBURGH MEETING - RESULTS
15:06:19 [emma]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/FinalReportOutline
15:06:24 [monica]
Emma: Outline of the report
15:06:51 [monica]
?? has asked for outline of report
15:07:13 [monica]
..this is very early draft in early stages everyone welcome to comment
15:07:14 [antoine]
s/??/some partcipants
15:07:17 [ww]
Zakim, mute me
15:07:17 [Zakim]
ww should now be muted
15:07:36 [Zakim]
+??P13
15:07:41 [digikim]
P13 is me
15:07:52 [ww]
Zakim, ??P13 is digikim
15:07:52 [Zakim]
+digikim; got it
15:07:53 [monica]
usecases and requirements extracted from UC will be in section of report
15:08:01 [digikim]
ww: thanks, never remember the syntax :)
15:08:18 [emma]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Nov/0120.html
15:08:24 [monica]
....we need to figure out what it will look like
15:08:27 [ww]
np. me neither. took me several tries when i logged in
15:08:59 [jodi]
zakim, who is making noise?
15:08:59 [monica]
\me too much keyboard noise
15:09:06 [markva]
I hear someone typing; cannot hear discussion well
15:09:11 [Zakim]
jodi, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: antoine (13%), emma (30%)
15:09:15 [antoine]
zakim, please mute me
15:09:15 [Zakim]
antoine should now be muted
15:09:17 [Zakim]
-GordonD
15:09:28 [monica]
.. next report section - available data
15:09:43 [Zakim]
+ +49.173.609.aabb
15:09:47 [markva]
q+
15:10:07 [antoine]
zakin, aabb is jneubert
15:10:31 [Zakim]
+??P2
15:11:04 [antoine]
zakim, ??P2 is GordonD
15:11:05 [Zakim]
I already had ??P2 as gordon, antoine
15:11:22 [emma]
ack markva
15:11:26 [antoine]
zakim, gordon is GordonD
15:11:26 [Zakim]
+GordonD; got it
15:11:27 [ww]
Zakim, gordon is GordonD
15:11:28 [Zakim]
+GordonD; got it
15:11:39 [monica]
markva q about terminology
15:11:55 [monica]
...'vocabulary' a loaded term
15:12:17 [monica]
...element sets proposed for things like FRBR
15:12:28 [monica]
...is htis the time to make the decision
15:12:36 [AlexanderH]
+1 value vocabularies
15:12:40 [antoine]
at least in the report what is aimed is "metadata element set"
15:12:49 [monica]
...limited number of people joined in the discussion
15:12:54 [antoine]
... in section "vocabularies"
15:13:00 [monica]
...what is the process for coming to a decision?
15:13:10 [marcia]
FRBR is a conceptual model
15:13:42 [monica]
...discussion seems to be spread across multiple thread
15:13:50 [jodi]
Re: AW: SemWeb terminology page is one of the other threads
15:14:00 [kcoyle]
there is also a frbr ontology that has been defined in a number of formats
15:14:09 [monica]
emma: placeholder in report for terminology
15:14:13 [kcoyle]
there is frbroo, frbrer, and frbr core
15:14:26 [marcia]
conceptual model and data model should be differently identified
15:14:36 [monica]
...sees discussion on irc invites contribs
15:15:14 [monica]
marcia: conceptual models are models, implementations are different
15:15:25 [monica]
...original FRBR is still conceptual model
15:15:30 [AlexanderH]
q+
15:15:35 [kcoyle]
they are -- they have been defined in rdf
15:15:41 [emma]
ack alex
15:15:43 [monica]
emma: once in RDF would they be vocabs?
15:16:07 [markva]
+1 Alexander
15:16:22 [monica]
??: discussion is more about separation between value vocabs and element sets
15:16:29 [antoine]
s/??/AlexanderH
15:16:37 [GordonD]
Vocabularies derived from conceptual models can be used in same way as those derived from data models - just expect conceptual models to be broader or less detailed
15:16:38 [kcoyle]
yes, that is the discussion
15:16:52 [antoine]
q+
15:16:58 [emma]
ack ant
15:17:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-minutes.html fsasaki
15:17:34 [Zakim]
-digikim
15:17:42 [monica]
antoine: points made that ?
15:17:47 [AlexanderH]
but there are properties that don't derive from models i.e. FOAF
15:18:00 [Zakim]
+??P13
15:18:04 [markva]
there is an implicit model in docs of FOAF
15:18:06 [digikim]
Zakim: P13 is digikim
15:18:07 [monica]
emma: agress with AlexanderH
15:18:17 [digikim]
Zakim, P13 is digikim
15:18:17 [Zakim]
sorry, digikim, I do not recognize a party named 'P13'
15:18:22 [markva]
I think model/implementation discussion not relevant here
15:18:30 [digikim]
Zakim, ??P13 is digikim
15:18:30 [Zakim]
+digikim; got it
15:18:40 [monica]
AlexanderH: make distinction that conceptual models are models and have been implemented
15:19:13 [monica]
emma: not make decision now but on mailing list
15:19:24 [monica]
emma: back to outline of report
15:19:31 [danbri]
there certainly was some thinking behind the FOAF design; it wasn't arbitrary, although it evolved bit by bit. But FOAF isn't an RDFification of some pre-existing, written down 'model'...
15:19:34 [antoine]
s/points made that/the report should only mention conceptual models through their implementation as metadata vocabularies
15:19:37 [monica]
emma: next section recommendations
15:20:09 [monica]
...tried to organise outcomes of F2F mtg into sections
15:20:32 [monica]
...again very early draft to give idea of how to organise report, non-definitive
15:20:43 [monica]
...everybody please look at report outline
15:20:52 [GordonD]
Why say "LLdata should be produced using the FR's as domain model."? There are other domain models, eg ISBD ...
15:20:54 [markva]
is an action?
15:21:08 [monica]
...we need feedback on early draft to move forward
15:21:44 [monica]
...any comments?
15:21:45 [antoine]
@GordonD: good point to make in your future remarks on the outline :-)
15:21:45 [markva]
sounds good
15:22:25 [monica]
emma: feedback welcome on list discuss further on future call
15:22:33 [monica]
TOPIC: USECASES
15:22:51 [monica]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/UseCases
15:23:05 [monica]
emma: invites comments from cluster owners
15:23:08 [markva]
q+
15:23:14 [emma]
ack markva
15:23:32 [monica]
markv: no further progress to report
15:23:45 [monica]
...emails suggested scenarios need to be extracted
15:24:10 [monica]
emma: idea is to suggest how it could look like in report
15:24:25 [monica]
...how to tranform use cases into something readable for report
15:24:28 [GordonD]
Gordon and Martin yet to start on their cluster - but expect to make good progress after we get started ;-)
15:24:32 [monica]
mark: no time to look at that yet
15:24:46 [antoine]
idea of abstract scenarios was also mentioned in previous calls here
15:24:55 [monica]
??: is this agreed what is the status?
15:25:03 [antoine]
s/??/markva
15:25:05 [monica]
emma: not decided mentioned on previous call
15:25:49 [monica]
...need feedback from clusters if it is a good idea
15:25:59 [GordonD]
+1 for abstraction
15:26:00 [monica]
markv: agrees it is a good idea to give more abstraction
15:26:00 [antoine]
+1 with abstracting
15:26:16 [monica]
s/markv/markva/
15:26:35 [monica]
emma: in archive cluster we have started to look at this and work in that direction
15:26:47 [markva]
zakim, mute me
15:26:47 [Zakim]
markva should now be muted
15:27:12 [antoine]
regrets+ Martin
15:27:26 [markva]
hard time hearing
15:27:50 [kcoyle]
we have new goals; we need to decide whether to add them to the goals page
15:28:01 [kcoyle]
or to create a new page, or a new section on that page
15:28:01 [markva]
great!!
15:28:05 [monica]
emma: we tried to make goals fit ones from mark's cluster, but they were quite different
15:28:12 [monica]
...we need to add new page
15:28:26 [emma]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Goals
15:28:55 [antoine]
+1 with that process!
15:28:59 [monica]
s/new page/new goals to teh page/
15:29:45 [monica]
... more description for goals needed
15:29:52 [monica]
...any otehr feedback?
15:30:02 [monica]
s/otehr/other/
15:30:14 [markva]
yep, hard to define goals clearly, generic and specific at same time
15:30:27 [monica]
TOPIC: USE CASE ACTIONS
15:30:37 [monica]
q+
15:30:55 [emma]
ack monica
15:30:57 [antoine]
scribe:antoine
15:31:06 [antoine]
scribenick:antoin
15:31:11 [antoine]
scribenick:antoine
15:31:30 [antoine]
monica: my colleagues at JISC couldn't make it for today
15:31:39 [antoine]
... but they're happy to discuss on the public list
15:31:46 [Zakim]
+??P15
15:32:39 [antoine]
monica: what is the interest of the group here?
15:32:53 [antoine]
... how JISC gathers information? Something else?
15:33:17 [antoine]
... this will help identify who would come and talk about the JISC work
15:33:18 [jodi]
for me the interest is how they gathered the use cases
15:33:27 [Asaf]
Asaf has joined #lld
15:33:34 [antoine]
emma: interest in on UCs they gathered on the web site
15:33:34 [jodi]
and whether they have any suggestions for comparing our use cases to theirs
15:33:54 [jodi]
(I'd like to make sure we don't have systematic bias in how we've come up with them, by doing them the same way.)
15:34:15 [antoine]
monica: ok, I'll see if someone (??) if he can answers questions
15:34:37 [monica]
owen stephens is our contact
15:34:38 [antoine]
... easier however if discussion start on list for better scoping
15:34:50 [antoine]
ACTION: Antoine to ask Monica to lead discussion about JISC use cases at http://obd.jisc.ac.uk/navigate [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/18-lld-minutes.html#action03]
15:34:52 [antoine]
--DONE
15:35:18 [antoine]
ACTION: Monica and JISC colleagues to introduce and discuss JISC work on next call
15:35:38 [emma]
scribe: Monica
15:35:44 [emma]
scribenick: monica
15:35:44 [antoine]
scribenick:monica
15:37:04 [monica]
TOPIC:wikipages
15:37:09 [emma]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Nov/0107.html
15:37:12 [antoine]
ACTION: William: to summarize options for using CKAN to the list, before next concall [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/11-lld-minutes.html#action01]
15:37:13 [antoine]
--DONE
15:37:14 [ww]
Zakim, unmute me
15:37:14 [Zakim]
ww should no longer be muted
15:37:15 [ww]
q+
15:37:22 [emma]
ack ww
15:37:33 [monica]
william: reiterate what is in email
15:37:50 [monica]
for people to curate group people need to login to CKAN
15:38:02 [monica]
...inform ww and kcoyle about their openID
15:38:15 [monica]
...could we all do this?
15:38:18 [jodi]
I'm interested, need to login, etc. :)
15:38:22 [antoine]
+1
15:38:26 [Asaf]
long-term, maybe. Right now, quite over-committed.
15:38:26 [monica]
emma: volunteers to curate CKAN
15:38:38 [monica]
...jodi, antoine
15:38:44 [GordonD]
+1
15:39:11 [monica]
ACTION: volunteers to send login information to william waite to curate CKAN
15:39:20 [ww]
Zakim, mute me
15:39:20 [Zakim]
ww should now be muted
15:39:23 [antoine]
q+
15:39:31 [ksclarke]
ksclarke has joined #lld
15:39:40 [emma]
ack ant
15:39:43 [monica]
TOPIC UPCOMING FACE-TO-FACE MEETING AT SWIB10 IN COLOGNE
15:40:06 [monica]
antoine: in ww's mail there was a proposed strategy
15:40:24 [monica]
relation between bibliographic and LOD group
15:40:30 [jodi]
+1
15:40:42 [ksclarke]
ksclarke has joined #lld
15:40:43 [monica]
emma: idea is to create an LLD group
15:41:30 [ww]
Zakim, unmute me
15:41:30 [Zakim]
ww should no longer be muted
15:41:31 [monica]
...was there feedback on the list?
15:41:52 [monica]
ww: there was a question about relationship between LOD and LODCloud
15:42:04 [monica]
...LODCloud has more requirements e.g. quality
15:42:12 [monica]
...quality checked manually
15:42:17 [antoine]
q+
15:42:21 [monica]
...that was extent of questions
15:42:39 [emma]
ack antoine
15:42:46 [monica]
anotoine: no objection to suggestion
15:43:03 [monica]
...propose to resolve to follow strategy as suggested by ww
15:43:35 [Zakim]
-??P15
15:43:47 [antoine]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Nov/0107.html
15:43:58 [monica]
RESOLVE: follow strategy of creating LLD group for CKAN http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Nov/0107.html
15:44:24 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:44:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-minutes.html antoine
15:44:35 [ww]
Zakim, mute me
15:44:35 [Zakim]
ww should now be muted
15:44:38 [emma]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Nov/0128.html
15:44:40 [Asaf]
Zakim, IPcaller is me
15:44:40 [Zakim]
+Asaf; got it
15:44:49 [monica]
TOPIC UPCOMING FACE-TO-FACE MEETING AT SWIB10 IN COLOGNE
15:44:53 [markva]
zakim, mute me
15:44:53 [Zakim]
markva was already muted, markva
15:44:56 [monica]
emma: agenda has been sent
15:45:09 [monica]
antoine: an informal meeting
15:45:21 [monica]
...entire group copied for information
15:45:48 [monica]
...have informal discussion, continue discussion from last weeks
15:46:13 [monica]
...first topic use case clusters
15:46:22 [monica]
second topic final report outline
15:46:49 [monica]
...would people be interested in remote participation?
15:47:07 [monica]
emma: is it possible to provide remote participation facility?
15:47:21 [markva]
background noise?
15:47:26 [markva]
ppl talking
15:47:26 [monica]
...who is interested is it worth doing?
15:47:43 [monica]
antoine: annette is not here
15:47:57 [emma]
zakim, who makes noise ?
15:47:57 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, emma.
15:48:03 [antoine]
zakim, who is making noise
15:48:03 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is making noise', antoine
15:48:05 [antoine]
zakim, who is making noise?
15:48:09 [emma]
zakim, who is noisy ?
15:48:19 [Zakim]
antoine, listening for 13 seconds I heard sound from the following: antoine (8%), Asaf (79%), joachim (79%)
15:48:25 [emma]
zakim, mute asaf
15:48:25 [Zakim]
Asaf should now be muted
15:48:31 [Zakim]
emma, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: antoine (32%), Asaf (44%), joachim (59%)
15:49:28 [monica]
antoine: is it worth to make the effort to find the phone
15:49:49 [monica]
emma: irc implies need to scribe which is more complicated than summarising the call
15:50:14 [monica]
??: there is a chance to have microphone on the phone will let us know
15:50:24 [antoine]
s/??/jneubert
15:50:33 [antoine]
q+
15:50:39 [monica]
emma: who else would liek to attend on irc or phone?
15:50:41 [emma]
ack ant
15:50:51 [monica]
...not alot of interest
15:51:08 [monica]
antoine: not the intention to force people to participate
15:51:24 [monica]
...but anyone wanting to join is welcome but keep it simple
15:51:43 [monica]
emma: any other business
15:51:56 [Asaf]
Has any of you been in touch with the Interedition group?
15:52:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-minutes.html antoine
15:52:24 [Asaf]
I just got back from an Interedition meeting in Pisa.
15:52:34 [Asaf]
They are not too aware of linked data.
15:52:43 [Asaf]
I tried to get them interested.
15:52:46 [Asaf]
(still a bit noisy here)
15:52:50 [Asaf]
(probably better to type_)
15:53:17 [Asaf]
So they're doing digital editions of manuscripts. I'll add something about it on the wiki, yes.
15:53:20 [Asaf]
yes.
15:53:32 [Zakim]
-AlexanderH
15:53:35 [Zakim]
-Jodi
15:53:36 [markva]
bye!
15:53:37 [digikim]
thanks
15:53:37 [Zakim]
-joachim
15:53:37 [jodi]
jodi has left #LLD
15:53:38 [Zakim]
-kai
15:53:40 [Zakim]
-GordonD
15:53:40 [Zakim]
-felix
15:53:41 [Zakim]
-ww
15:53:41 [Zakim]
-Asaf
15:53:42 [Zakim]
-digikim
15:53:44 [Zakim]
-kcoyle
15:53:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-minutes.html antoine
15:53:48 [emma]
adjourned
15:53:52 [antoine]
zakim, list attendees
15:53:52 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been antoine, emma, GordonD, markva, AlexanderH, felix, Jodi, ww, +44.194.346.aaaa, monica, kcoyle, marcia, kai, digikim, +49.173.609.aabb,
15:53:52 [markva]
zakim, unmute me
15:53:55 [Zakim]
... joachim, Asaf
15:53:55 [Zakim]
markva should no longer be muted
15:53:56 [Zakim]
-marcia
15:53:59 [ww]
thanks everyone
15:55:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-minutes.html antoine
15:55:43 [Zakim]
-markva
15:57:51 [Zakim]
-monica
15:58:03 [Zakim]
-emma
15:58:08 [antoine]
zakim, bye
15:58:08 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were antoine, emma, GordonD, markva, AlexanderH, felix, Jodi, ww, +44.194.346.aaaa, monica, kcoyle, marcia, kai, digikim, +49.173.609.aabb,
15:58:08 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #lld
15:58:11 [Zakim]
... joachim, Asaf
15:58:32 [antoine]
rrsagent, bye
15:58:32 [RRSAgent]
I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-actions.rdf :
15:58:32 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Antoine to ask Monica to lead discussion about JISC use cases at http://obd.jisc.ac.uk/navigate [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/18-lld-minutes.html#action03] [1]
15:58:32 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-irc#T15-34-50
15:58:32 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Monica and JISC colleagues to introduce and discuss JISC work on next call [2]
15:58:32 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-irc#T15-35-18
15:58:32 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: William: to summarize options for using CKAN to the list, before next concall [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/11-lld-minutes.html#action01] [3]
15:58:32 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-irc#T15-37-12
15:58:32 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: volunteers to send login information to william waite to curate CKAN [4]
15:58:32 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/25-lld-irc#T15-39-11