15:01:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #hcg
15:01:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/19-hcg-irc
15:01:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
15:01:13 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #hcg
15:01:15 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML_CG
15:01:15 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see HTML_CG()10:00AM already started
15:01:16 <trackbot> Meeting: Hypertext Coordination Group Teleconference
15:01:16 <trackbot> Date: 19 November 2010
15:01:56 <Zakim> +Bert
15:01:59 <Bert> Bert has joined #hcg
15:02:20 <Zakim> +ChrisL
15:03:16 <plh-home> plh-home has joined #hcg
15:03:24 <Zakim> +Plh
15:04:02 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #hcg
15:04:07 <plh-home> zakim, drop plh
15:04:07 <Zakim> Plh is being disconnected
15:04:08 <Zakim> -Plh
15:04:15 <Zakim> +Plh
15:04:26 <kaz> kaz has joined #hcg
15:04:59 <ChrisL> Regrets: Daniel Glazman, Robin Berjon, Cameron McCormack, Erik Dahlström, Art Barstow, Charles
15:04:59 <ChrisL> McCathieNevile, Frederick Hirsch,  Lofton Henderson
15:05:05 <Zakim> +??P10
15:05:26 <kaz> zakim,  ??P10 is Kaz
15:05:26 <Zakim> +Kaz; got it
15:05:39 <ChrisL> zakim, who is here?
15:05:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see Debbie_Dahl, Bert, ChrisL, Plh, Kaz
15:05:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see kaz, shepazu, plh-home, Bert, Zakim, RRSAgent, ChrisL, ddahl, plinss, ed, trackbot
15:06:12 <ChrisL> zakim, mute plh
15:06:12 <Zakim> Plh should now be muted
15:06:18 <Zakim> +Shepazu
15:06:18 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
15:06:32 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
15:06:39 <ChrisL> volunteer for scribe?
15:07:26 <plh-home> scribe: plh
15:07:50 <plh-home> Topic: Action items
15:08:09 <ChrisL> ACTION-58?
15:08:09 <trackbot> ACTION-58 -- Philippe Le Hégaret to follow up on bugzilla accessibility issues -- due 2010-10-29 -- OPEN
15:08:09 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/CoordGroup/track/actions/58
15:08:20 <plh-home> zakim, plh is me
15:08:20 <Zakim> +plh-home; got it
15:08:47 <ChrisL> plh: systeam updated to latest bugzilla, may have helped.
15:08:56 <ChrisL> close ACTION-58
15:08:57 <trackbot> ACTION-58 Follow up on bugzilla accessibility issues closed
15:09:27 <plh-home> Topic: Status report
15:09:51 <plh-home> chris: would be good if people were sending status report
15:10:04 <plh-home> ... maybe Debiie and I can put back the list of status report
15:10:12 <plh-home> ... it is possible for staff contacts to send them
15:10:18 <plh-home> ... nit just chairs
15:10:53 <plh-home> Debbie: don't think there is anything we can do to make it easier
15:11:06 <plh-home> ... it's a matter of a few sentence on what's going on
15:11:29 <plh-home> agenda+ TC 39
15:11:41 <plh-home> Chris: it's quite useful to have them all in one place
15:11:51 <plh-home> ... it's useful if there are upcoming last call
15:12:19 <plh-home> Doug: having some sort of structure might help. resolutions, working drafts, etc.
15:12:50 <plh-home> agenda+ TR draft warnings
15:13:32 <plh-home> Chris: yes, maybe Debbie and I can work on a template
15:13:49 <plh-home> ACTION: Chris to develop a template for WG status report
15:13:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-61 - Develop a template for WG status report [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-11-26].
15:14:05 <plh-home> Debbie: key thing is how it affects other groups
15:14:43 <plh-home> zakim, move to next agendum
15:14:43 <Zakim> agendum 1. "TC 39" taken up [from plh-home]
15:14:43 <shepazu> agenda+ Web Events and Touch Interface
15:14:55 <ChrisL> scribenick: chrisl
15:15:14 <ChrisL> plh remotely attended tc39 in california
15:15:32 <ChrisL> ... topics included working better with w3c, liason list will be sent
15:15:51 <ChrisL> ... cameron was there and other webapps wg folks, talked about webidl
15:16:11 <ChrisL> .. to better understand it. expect iason request soon - webapps, dap, etc
15:16:21 <ChrisL> s/iason/liaison
15:16:27 <ChrisL> ds: webevents?
15:16:33 <ChrisL> plh (long list)
15:17:21 <kaz> s/liason/liaison/
15:18:31 <ChrisL> ds: we don't do org to org liaison, mostly group to group
15:18:46 <ChrisL> plh; we do, sometimes, but don't favour it
15:18:52 <ChrisL> ds: say we don't do it
15:18:56 <kaz> s/plh;/plh:/
15:18:59 <ChrisL> plh: its not true though
15:19:44 <ChrisL> plh: once we have a request we will direct them to the right groups
15:20:03 <ChrisL> ds: we already have a mailing list specifically for webapps webidl work
15:20:21 <ChrisL> plh: they do not necessarily understand everything we do in this space
15:20:39 <ChrisL> ... like multiple additions to the window object
15:21:05 <ChrisL> ds: don't think a formal liaison will help here
15:21:16 <ChrisL> plh: only caught the end of the discussion
15:21:35 <ChrisL> ... we could give them a full list of specs containing apis
15:21:44 <ChrisL> ds: sounds like makework
15:21:53 <ChrisL> plh: /TR has that already
15:22:26 <plh-home> agenda?
15:22:32 <plh-home> Topic: LC
15:22:38 <plh-home> Chris: WOFF is ongoing
15:22:44 <plh-home> ... any other?
15:22:45 <shepazu> agenda+ Web-on-TV
15:23:01 <plh-home> zakin, close agendum 1
15:23:10 <plh-home> zakim, close agendum 1
15:23:10 <Zakim> agendum 1, TC 39, closed
15:23:11 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:23:13 <Zakim> 2. TR draft warnings [from plh-home]
15:23:22 <plh-home> zakim, move to next agendum
15:23:23 <Zakim> agendum 2. "TR draft warnings" taken up [from plh-home]
15:24:10 <ChrisL> plh: html wg started it, now spread to others; warning that editors draft is more up to date 
15:25:27 <ChrisL> plh: so they wanted to redirect people to editors drafts where feedback is incorporated rapidly
15:26:10 <ChrisL> plh: so its fne to warn people but remind WGs to update /TR version at least every three months
15:26:21 <ChrisL> ... some drafts not updated for a year or more
15:26:35 <ChrisL> ... heartbeat requirement
15:27:11 <ChrisL> ... was not enoughfor html wg, more frequent than 3 months was needed
15:27:24 <shepazu> q+
15:27:30 <kaz> s/enoughfor/enough for/
15:27:44 <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html
15:27:50 <ChrisL> chris: how to add this while still meeting pubrules?
15:28:17 <ChrisL> plh: various ways to do it, people still miss the link sometimes
15:28:22 <Bert> q+ to ask that WG's refrain from making public editor's drafts. It is hard enough already to explain to people what the various statuses on /TR mean...
15:28:25 <shepazu> [I've added an Editor's Draft and Public Comments link to the top of DOM3 Events]
15:28:59 <ChrisL> plh: some groups have popups. any of these is fine, no specific format is recommended at the moment
15:29:11 <ChrisL> ... more and more groups have public editors versions
15:29:20 <ChrisL> ack shepazu
15:29:53 <ChrisL> ds: its fine to experiment but there is a lot to be said for consistency across specs. should have a standardised way to do it
15:30:12 <ChrisL> ... otherwise its harder for casual consumers of secs to figure it out
15:30:33 <ChrisL> ... dom3 events has editors draft link at the top, also added a public comments link
15:30:47 <ChrisL> ... because people cat figure out how to comment on a spec
15:31:02 <ChrisL> s/cat/can't/
15:31:15 <ChrisL> ... people don't read the sotd
15:32:01 <ChrisL> chris: people ignore sotd?
15:32:29 <ChrisL> ds: this is a good way to present it
15:33:26 <ChrisL> ChrisL: looks lie a clear way, we could standardize on that
15:33:28 <plh-home> Doug: check out how I did for DOM3 events to advertize the archive for public comments
15:33:29 <ChrisL> ack bert
15:33:29 <Zakim> Bert, you wanted to ask that WG's refrain from making public editor's drafts. It is hard enough already to explain to people what the various statuses on /TR mean...
15:34:00 <ChrisL> bert: agree on consistency, public comment link is good, but now its different from other wgs
15:34:08 <ChrisL> ... need rules for this
15:34:16 <plh-home> Bert: agree with consistency otherwise it will be impossible to follow between working groups
15:34:24 <plh-home> ... the /TR process is the right one
15:34:33 <ChrisL> ... we should keep to w3c process
15:34:55 <plh-home> Doug: it's appropriate to experiment with several ways. don't see a problem with that, as long as we get to the best way
15:35:11 <plh-home> bert: the format was set more than 10 years ago
15:35:28 <plh-home> doug: don't think we should simply follow history
15:35:56 <plh-home> chris: 10 years ago, everything single group worked in members space and it was easy to update /TR
15:36:15 <plh-home> ... things have changed now. we have public groups, with public editor's drafts
15:36:29 <Bert> (For example, Doug's draft doesn't have "latest version" but "latest stable version", which means some of my scripts fail. :-( )
15:36:37 <plh-home> ... and responses to comments can point to editor's draft
15:37:27 <plh-home> Bert: we have a dozen state for /TR drafts nowadays. it's impossible to explain all of that to people?
15:37:57 <plh-home> Doug: so, how do we explain to people that the draft they're looking at is out of date?
15:38:29 <plh-home> [stop minuting]
15:40:41 <plh-home> Chris: linking to editor's drafts should be done in a consistent manner. don't forget to update your /TR, ie don't let them rot.
15:41:33 <plh-home> ... let's pick one way to link to editor's draft and follow up
15:41:48 <plh-home> ... as well as the comment link
15:42:02 <plh-home> ... next step? seems we should take that to chairs
15:42:43 <ChrisL> zakim, agenda?
15:42:43 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
15:42:45 <plh-home> ACTION: Doug to follow up to chairs on links to comments and editor's drafts
15:42:45 <Zakim> 2. TR draft warnings [from plh-home]
15:42:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-62 - Follow up to chairs on links to comments and editor's drafts [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-11-26].
15:42:46 <Zakim> 3. Web Events and Touch Interface [from shepazu]
15:42:48 <Zakim> 4. Web-on-TV [from shepazu]
15:43:06 <plh-home> zakim, move to next agendum
15:43:06 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Web Events and Touch Interface" taken up [from shepazu]
15:43:14 <plh-home> Doug: we launched the Working Group
15:43:45 <plh-home> ... we're going to work on touch interfaces
15:43:54 <plh-home> ... physical actions
15:44:04 <plh-home> ... and high level events
15:44:10 <plh-home> ... such as undo
15:44:57 <plh-home> ... there are several ways to do undo (shake, menu edit, etc.)
15:45:24 <plh-home> ... similar to DOMActivate but more likely to be implemented.
15:45:38 <plh-home> Chris: sounds like a useful direction, similar to textevent
15:45:46 <plh-home> zakim, move to next agendum
15:45:46 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Web-on-TV" taken up [from shepazu]
15:46:06 <plh-home> Doug: head a lot at TPAC and in Japan.
15:46:11 <plh-home> s/head/heard/
15:46:21 <plh-home> ... had discussion with various companies
15:46:31 <plh-home> ... remote controls is one case
15:46:48 <plh-home> ... we have this all new situation. browser/tv agents
15:46:55 <plh-home> ... kaz is the contact for this
15:47:42 <plh-home> chris: good to see activity in this area, but let's not create an other vertical silo.
15:47:54 <plh-home> ... ie let's avoid the subsetting effect
15:48:03 <kaz> q+
15:48:06 <plh-home> ... what sort of steps are being taken again that?
15:48:17 <kaz> q?
15:48:29 <plh-home> Doug: received an email from comcast expressing that same sentiment
15:48:46 <ChrisL> ack kaz
15:49:17 <plh-home> kaz: the conclusion has been to create an IG
15:50:18 <plh-home> ... we're not planning to create a new silo or new spec, but concentrate on use cases from broadcasters instead
15:51:00 <kaz> -> http://www.w3.org/2010/09/web-on-tv/summary.html workshop summary
15:51:28 <plh-home> debbie: lots of different type of organizations are interested in this domain
15:51:35 <kaz> -> http://www.w3.org/2010/09/web-on-tv/minutes.html#attendees workshop attendees
15:51:43 <plh-home> ... browser vendors, hardware makers, broadcasters, etc.
15:51:57 <ChrisL> zakim, agenda?
15:51:58 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
15:52:00 <Zakim> 4. Web-on-TV [from shepazu]
15:52:05 <kaz> s/... browser/debbie: browser/
15:52:32 <plh-home> Topic: Next meeting
15:52:39 <plh-home> Debbie: Dec 31 will be canceled
15:52:48 <plh-home> ... next one is Dec 3
15:53:04 <plh-home> Chris: Dec 17 will be fine as well.
15:53:36 <plh-home> Next meeting is Dec 3
15:53:57 <plh-home> [adjourned]
15:54:02 <plh-home> zakim, list participants
15:54:02 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Debbie_Dahl, Bert, ChrisL, Kaz, Shepazu, Doug_Schepers, plh-home
15:54:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/19-hcg-minutes.html plh-home
15:54:05 <Zakim> -ChrisL
15:54:06 <Zakim> -plh-home
15:54:07 <Zakim> -Shepazu
15:54:09 <Zakim> -Debbie_Dahl
15:54:10 <ddahl> ddahl has left #hcg
15:54:16 <Zakim> -Kaz
15:54:27 <Zakim> -Bert
15:54:28 <Zakim> HTML_CG()10:00AM has ended
15:54:30 <Zakim> Attendees were Debbie_Dahl, Bert, ChrisL, Kaz, Shepazu, Doug_Schepers, plh-home
15:59:22 <kaz> i/Chris: WOFF is ongoing/scribenick: plh-home/
15:59:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/19-hcg-minutes.html plh-home
15:59:51 <plh-home> Chair: Chris
16:00:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/19-hcg-minutes.html plh-home
16:00:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/19-hcg-minutes.html plh-home
16:01:09 <plh-home> I'm working on them
16:01:38 <plh-home> scribenick: plh-home
16:01:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/19-hcg-minutes.html plh-home
16:15:50 <Bert> Bert has left #hcg