See also: IRC log
<scribe> Scribe: Doyle
<scribe> ScribeNick: doylesaylor
<shawn> Doyle: involved in wells fargo in access, interested in live AT - eg when walking around, have online connection to someone who can assit you. intereted in neurosxcience...
Shawn: Let's get started.
... We have had a lot of new documents since the WAI site design in 2005. We are wanting to do a quick tweak of the site design. To do this month. We worked on at the face to face in Lyon.
Shawn: Visual browsers on the left, has the upper levels on the page. What's under that content below that. Sub pages be able to click to get started. PWD using the web and working together with WAI are the most different ones.
Jennifer: What I noticed is I did not see reference to the before and after demo? On purpose?
Shawn: Not on purpose, not in this draft yet.
Jennifer: could you make a note about that?
Shawn: yes will do.
Jennifer: side note where I would expect to find probably would have been the presentations and tutorial part, and also related to evaluation. A bit of cross over. My two places where I thought i might be.
Shawn: the way this is structured
every document has to have a single home. Belongs here but
people looking somewhere else can benefit from see also.
... We have the BAD Before After demo. What we have from the card sort.
Sandi: what is a card sort?
Shawn: a technic for information architecture.
Sandi: we sometimes call that mapping. Or anagram.
Shawn: to be critical of this for now. If it passes through our critique, and comes out good we are good. We want everyone to be involved in the critic.
Sandi: are you talking in terms of content or navigation?
Shawn: the wording of the categories. The grouping and wording of the categories in the navigation. Someone coming to this how does the navigation work. What you are looking for what we have.
Ian: Looks like what we had in
the F2F. The top level navigation looks wrong to me for the
moment. Shorter name for PWD using the internet.
... I don't disabilties in the web. I like the word people use the web instead.
Sandi: I use the phrase people with all abilities. A world organized on what people can do. I refer to my impairments, I don't feel disabled.
<IanPouncey> Working Together with WAI -> Working with WAI? 'Together' seems uneccessary.
Shawn: we have had all sorts of discussions around that. Hold that idea and let's re-address that at some point. Something we re-did the rewording of everything. We decided to not use that. The strongest objection with getting rid of the word disabilties. Assuming we have gone through that we will carefully use that term. A good brainstorm for that.
Jennifer: Nothing jumps out at me.
Shawn: the biggest issue in the past the WAI web site has provided very little information directly to PWD mostly aimed at developers, designers, managers and policy makers. We have more information now, like Contacting organizations about inaccessibile web sites. How do we get people to the material. What words do we use? You would material you would be really interested in.
Jennifer: I was looking at big picture also. I'll shift my brain.
Sharron: nothing jumps out at me. I found after that comment, I'm intrigued by Web Browsing for all abilties.
Ian: small comment working together with WAI the word together is a bit unnecessary.
Shawn: WAI was often mixed with employment, how do we make it clear it is more? We need to improve the site for openness for participation. How can we do that?
Shawn: Other brainstorms. What else?
... something about community, building online communities. Join our community?
Shawn: Join WAI community. Do any work better than WAI.
Ian: not really. I understand what you are saying. Doesn't feel quite right yet. Working is the key word in that. Keep Working.
Sharron: what do you think Working Together still make sense to you Ian?
Ian: I would take out Together.
Unless we can think of something better perhaps.
... Liam and Andrew is very good at this.
Shawn: The question now. Thoughts?
Kate: not really leave Working in there, the title is a bit vague.
Shawn: here is a question. What do we do now? Do we say this is a lot better than what we have, and get it done. In November, or not there now and wait until next year. This month or not until next year.
Doyle: wait till next year.
<IanPouncey> I think it is an improvement, will be tough to get done in 2 weeks.
Doyle: I'm not ready to work on this.
Kate: Can't think of how to imporve it. But not dynamic enough to grab attention.
<shawn> sharron: it is an improvement. let's implelment it & get feedback and we can change it later. although wish that Liam was here to give his perspective.
<shawn> ... we have spent time on it & gotten thoughtful input
Jennifer: I'm inclined to say go for it. It would be nice if Liam could lend his expertise, but if not, I still think we ought to go for it. If we find some glaring thing, we can fix it.
Ian: We should implement and refine it next year. However two weeks is not a long time to do so.
<doylesaylor> Doyle: I agree with Ian.
Doyle: I agree with Ian
Sandi: I may be too new to comment. But people in your target audience may find this difficult. The language in the content may be a bit scary.
<doylesaylor> Sandi: I think target audience. People who know about accessibility. The logical aspect will find this difficult. With the actual introduction of content. More of marketing thing. If it is a bit scary if you are new to the industry.
<scribe> scribe: Doylesaylor
Shawn: there are two things, the page you get on the navigation. What about the navigation like the intro paragraph. How can we make the words of the navigation more welcoming and less jargony?
Sandi: I would think about that.
Shawn: getting new perspectives
is very important. Feel free to mention something briefly. Good
point we haven't thought of that, it is fine. The timing of
stuff. To put the agenda as far in advance as we can. We try to
do by Wednesday. The first scenario to look to see what is
involved. Everyone take a look after the call. Give us
additional thoughts, and I'll mark in there, and other ideas
send into the list. do we still try to go for it.
... In terms of the work I think I can pull off. I will update an outline, check the script will handle the navigation. I'd like to if we can. Let's look at the last page. Working together with WAi.
Shawn: I had two versions of
this. I wanted to get your feedback on this. Anyone not
... In the main version you click on. In the navigation area it lists the WAI groups in the top level of navigation. Feel overwhelming or nice to have there? Something different.
Ian: It's nice to see there. I don't know who people are less familiar would react.
Sharron: I also thought it good to see them there.
Shawn: what just the acronyms there and the page the words.
Ian: more scary there.
Shawn: Any other comments on that point? Gone. Anything else on the site navigation for now? First agenda topic.
Shawn: Before we talk about the details some background, we talked doing this. If you have to have this the navigation is not good enough. We may not have to do this. We would have on every page seeing the site map we have a link in the navigation. Encouraging and helping people. We talked about how our site map is really is useful. Most people think site maps are not useful. What do people think overall? Shouldn't do or do? High level reaction
Jennifer: my gut reaction I wish we didn't but I'm afraid we do. I think about people who come to the W3C are overwhelmed and run away. So much is technical. I sort of feel this might help but I don't like it.
Sharron: If we really wish we don't need it. It is not so much scared away by technical aspect, people don't know stuff is there, that WAI provides these resources. Something is a different kind of marketing approach. People don't know to look for those kinds of resources on the W3C site. Maybe it is not the navigation internally but get the message out to the world about this.
Shawn: that makes sense. We became aware in the F2F that people don't know what resources are available. Even people familiar with WAI don't always know what's there. Maybe what we really need to do there is finding your way around the web site. The point of what we need to get across. Communicating what people need to go find it.
Sharron: I think that is really the point. People are amazed when I say there is something to use. I always say this is from the W3C web site. I sent the notes to Glenda and she said wow and I have heard you say this, and it was really powerful. People haven't heard but when the first time they go and see all this other stuff.
Shawn: people who used it five years ago, three years ago, or recently we have a lot of new stuff since then.
<kate> kate: sorry i have to go to a meeting, speak to you next time...
Sharron: all of us who speak in big forums. Somehow you get when in front of a lot of people to point out to a lot of people which are rich and helpful. So many people don't know about it. Put in the front of our brains. Whatever we can part of education and outreach our responsibility here. Having those little cards?
Sharron: at South by Southwest we talked about having that.
Shawn: when we print in January. A flyer as well. WCAG at a glance and on the other side highlights on that.
Sharron: On almost any aspect of accessibility. Something that is helpful to guide people deeper. Marketing more effrectively.
Shawn: where do we need to be focusing on next? We have an opportunity to stand back and look. The basic materials we are doing. What can we do with this revision. We do update the nav. Also the rough sketch has a help finding to WAI web site. Something welcoming for people when they get there to encourage them to look for it?
Sharron: maybe something for this page a different title? Maybe something like discover new resources, if you know...?
Shawn: awhile ago we did Which WCAG 2 docs for you. If you want to get it, from the EO homepage there is a link to which WCAG docs are for you. A draft page and I am thinking of adding to the re-design.
<shawn> Need an introduction, For developers, For managers, For policy makers, For web users, For presenters
Shawn: is one possibility to have a little blurb down there. A new resources for audiences and they see themselves in there and click?
<shawn> ^^^ from http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/wcag/wcag-audiences#intro
Jennifer: I really like the idea because I think people are looking for themselves.
Doyle: who is speaking?
Sandi: All these things have issues. Even when you look at who these are. If you are a manager sending them on journey. You think you are guiding them and you aren't thinking about them. I would dread to come here. I don't know where I am. Not from accessible in a usability sense.
Shawn: we can't address the W3C
site, but what we can do with the WAI. What can we do in the
next two weeks?
... send an email.
<shawn> s/Shawn: send an email./ /\
Jennifer: reflecting on by audience becomes a nightmare for maintenance.
Sharron: I agree with that.
Sandi: when said at a such a level it is really a problem like a developer saying this is for blind.
Shawn: we are not going to direct by audience, but something like if you are this audience, you can find this here.
Jennifer: as most people are in a
... I am not thinking about tabs but instead highlights. Look for my info here.
Shawn: we have a huge list of things to do is who can do them. Sharron your brainstorm something look for new resources on?
Sharron: discover the new resources. Be the first on your block.
Shawn: It would be nice to do with navigation tweaks. Do we say we don't need designers and developers because they figure something for them here?
Sharron: I don't know.
<shawn> Discover new WAI resources to help managers, policy makers, people with disabilities, and more!
Ian: I would say that yes. Developers don't need so much aimed at them. Presenters and tutorials is pretty clear in the navigation. No need to repeat.
Jennifer: from a maintenance perspective, the word 'new' worries me. You have to always tending to it, and make sure that there is always new coming at the top and old stuff scrolling off the bottom. Has ramification potentially. I don't know what that translate to your world?
Shawn: doesn't list the highlights, and says there are new ones and they go look for them.
Sharron: do we have RSS to update someone?
Shawn: absolutely ways of announcing we have new documents which are there.
Jennifer: all the tweeter content gets there because RSS.
Shawn: We have 3000 followers to
the WAI tweeter. Gets re-Tweeted many many times. What are
other thoughts for doing something that?
... what would catch their eye to click on to say that there is more stuff for them. Something not so enticing?
Sandi: what is your tweeter handle? w3c_wai?
<shawn> Discover new WAI resources to help managers, policy makers, people with disabilities, and more!
Shawn: if we do something under the navigation to encourage new people. ! include all the things we have. 2 to have a welcoming and encouraging for someone brand new and overwhelmed.
Ian: home page itself. The highlights not very exciting. Scope to expose some the articles themselves? Are our highlights a list of last calls and reviews. Everything else mixed up. Weekly or monthly rotation of articles and keep a balance of developers, and designers and helpful to different groups.
Shawn: we talked about something to come back to about outreach. What is your perspective for how many people read the homepage?
Ian: I am the only one I know of. The people interested in last call are on mailing list or follow on Tweeter. They go through than through that page.
Jennifer: when I need to refer people to WAI related documents I do the work for them and rarely point them to the WAI home page. I want them to go as quickly as they can.
Sharron: other perspective. That is my feeling. I think there are not very many people have the WAI home page and check every moment.
Shawn: Ian yes we do have some other documents I would like to take the call for reviews but other people like them. My feeling is that a primary resource of information for people. How can we do better for outreach.
Ian: we don't know if people feel it is boring or what not.
Shawn: we did some more
interesting things when we rolled out five years ago.
... we did do originally a little bit more of that.
Jennifer: that takes time and resources to do that though.
Ian: at the F2F we discussed increasing the out put of this.
Shawn: good to think about these
things. We will talk in December and January. I would encourage
you to think about what things you would be interested in.
Looking forward to continued participation from you guys. And
other working group participants. Any other thoughts on what to
do with this? I'll draft something and email that. Let's do
something with the idea we can easily change it. Come up with
something that will work.
... anything else on this point? Gone
Shawn: on the bottom in a yellow
box under H2, feedback requests.
... it says (reads). We wanted to do forever get better at feedback. Internationalzation gets some feedback. All of this has feedback is welcome. We are thinking to do something more obvious or explicit to encourage people to send us. Is this good, and what should this say here?
Jennifer: so there are two links. One of is please tell us, and please share your feedback. Do we only need one? choose one of the two?
Shawn: I put down to get discussion started.
Jennifer: thanks that explains that.
Shawn: I am not sure where this would go. Internationalization has a form. All of this is up for discussion. What do you think? How do we present and what words do we use?
Ian: I am going to be a bit negative about the idea. But people don't invest themselves in it. For a UK feedback is in the hundreds, useful feedback is quite limited. It is how they use the site and not how they think the site.
Shawn: I some feedback is better than none? What is the negative of doing this. One thing to be aware that you get negative not positive? What is realistic and what you do with the information you get? What do you do with it.
Ian: the negative aspects to add to the page, not useful to people? To analyze it to respond to it. More annoyed take the time to give feedback.
Shawn: the second one we are fine on. A quick answer. Like thank you for your ideas we would get so few it would not be a maintenance burden.
Ian: that's fine because it is insignificant number of people using this.
Shawn: other thoughts like we care or interested getting communicated?
Kate: I don't understand the thinking behind this. If this is going to be the WAI site. My overarching concern, not considering usability. It could be improved by UI, and not just navigation. The page structure visually as well. I have more ideas to add, than comments. I am struggling the overall design, part of the problem is it is so text based. I think of ideas I feel the whole thing is the whole user experience. I don't know what you would do
Shawn: what we are trying to do right now is going to be in January. Some bandaids in two weeks. What can we do in two weeks.
Sandi: give something to Sandi Ian to mark up.
Shawn: let you know of work on User centered design. I don't think we need to do that.
Sandi: I don't mean to do that, but rather to say this is ugly and to improve. A visual design to drive people to this place. Even if it is the semantic structure. Seeing it being more dynamic would solve this.
Shawn: we have this on our list
and we just need resources. Realizing we know that. Resources?
What band aids can we do in the next week or two?
... we have a lot of resources in the coming months. Help find them for now.
Sandi: Tell me what CMS you used?
... other questions or comments?
Shawn: there is survey form for
entering your comments. Sandi you can send your comments to the
... please fill out the survey. Reminder to do with this document we plan to draft for publishing review. We need more review before it is done. We need more from this group. I am hoping to make any changes to agree with that. Talk with on Friday and next week. Any questions on that?
... Anything else?
Ian: what are we talking about at South by Southwest, the topics?
Shawn: I will talk about buy in.
Sharron: we are talking about rich internet content.
Shawn: you mention a mini face to face. Who is going to CSUN?
Sandi: I am wondering what we could do there?
Sharron: what kind of things?
Sandi: advocacy, we have a booth there. Bring materials spend time to the booth. Try to make the booth in the trade booths, make it a hub. A lot of space there, we have AT there, and glad to make some space. We have an accessibility context party, and South by Southwest is all about parties. Audio described musical performance at our party.
Shawn: good real estate?
Sharron: Hugh believes in what we do, usually they are really good to us. Usually a really nice space. Always at an end of row, they are very good to us.
Shawn: other ideas please send to
the mailing list.
... feel free to critique and acknowledge the work done of course.
... Make sure you look at web accessibility next week. Talk to you next week.
rsagent, draft minutes
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/although with that Liam /although wish that Liam / Succeeded: s/ There is an influential person who wants us to do by audience. I would love it Sandi if you would do a reply?/ / WARNING: Bad s/// command: s/Shawn: send an email./ /\ Succeeded: s/Sandi: I would love it./ / Succeeded: s/ Sandi: My opinion I'd phrase as./ / Succeeded: s/ reflecting on this / reflecting on by audience / Succeeded: s/WAI, W3C/w3c_wai/ Succeeded: s/ Shawn: we have script that generates the navigation. That is unreliable or flaky. When W3C did their re-design we hope to take some of the design aspects of their re-design./ / Found Scribe: Doyle Found ScribeNick: doylesaylor Found Scribe: sharron Inferring ScribeNick: Sharron Found Scribe: Doylesaylor Inferring ScribeNick: doylesaylor Scribes: Doyle, sharron, Doylesaylor ScribeNicks: doylesaylor, Sharron Default Present: doyle, Shawn, +44.127.377.aaaa, Kate, Sandi, Sharron, Jennifer, +44.207.330.aabb, Ian Present: Doyle Sandi Kate Sharron Jennifer Ian Regrets: Yeliz Andrew Liam Alan Got date from IRC log name: 19 Nov 2010 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/11/19-eo-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]