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15:55:06 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/18-html-a11y-irc
15:55:08 RRSAgent, make logs world
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15:55:10 Zakim, this will be 2119
15:55:11 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:55:11 Date: 18 November 2010
15:55:11 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
15:57:58 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has now started
15:58:06 +??P2
15:59:26 +Michael_Cooper
15:59:47 zakim, ??P2 is Everett_Zufelt
15:59:49 +Everett_Zufelt; got it
15:59:49 paulc has joined #html-a11y
16:00:05 chair: Mike_Smith, Janina_Sajka
16:00:44 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0213.html
16:00:49 regrets+ Marco_Ranon
16:01:04 +Cynthia_Shelly
16:01:14 +[Microsoft]
16:01:26 zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
16:01:27 +paulc; got it
16:01:43 +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:01:58 Cynthia is easier to recognize.
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16:02:21 paulc is on mute
16:03:00 NW weather: http://wsdot.wa.gov/traffic/passes/snoqualmie/
16:03:27 zakim, call janina
16:03:27 ok, janina; the call is being made
16:03:28 +Janina
16:03:39 kliehm has joined #html-a11y
16:03:39 + +44.117.929.aaaa
16:03:54 zakim, aaaa is Léonie_Watson
16:03:54 +Léonie_Watson; got it
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16:04:25 +??P7
16:04:33 agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
16:04:35 agenda+ Issue-134 TabList-Role
16:04:36 agenda+ Issue-133 Modal-Attribute
16:04:38 agenda+ Other issue review
16:04:39 agenda+ Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mappings; Media; Bug Triage
16:04:41 agenda+ next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe
16:04:42 zakim, ??P7 is Jon_Gunderson
16:04:42 +Jon_Gunderson; got it
16:05:59 JS: Action update, MC can you help
16:06:16 MC: Action 22 on me, organize testing joint task force
16:06:35 MC: I tried to do this at the TP, I recommend to postpone by 6 months
16:06:38 action-22 due 31 May 2011
16:06:38 ACTION-22 Organize joint discussion of testing task force and html a11y task force due date now 31 May 2011
16:06:43 MC: Due 31 May 2011
16:06:50 MC: Action 72 on GR
16:07:10 MC: Update the definition of image element, GR is not here
16:07:25 MC: Do you status?
16:07:35 JS: That is still open too
16:07:48 MC: Action 85 on Everit on change proposal
16:08:24 JS: I am hoping that you are ok it, using the TITLE is not a good source as ALT text, we need to document it in the spec
16:08:50 JS: It maybe the spec says that, if not we need a change proposal, can you do that
16:09:06 +kliehm
16:09:36 Everit: I would agree generally, many authors may use TITLE when they do not use ALT text, is there disagreement?
16:10:05 RS: We discussed this on the ARIA call, but ALT text is considered fall back content, so ALT is rendered when images are turned off
16:10:23 RS: TITLE would not be used unless there is no ALT
16:10:44 JS: We don't want to discuss the issue now
16:10:58 RS: Should I post the ARIA accessible name algorithm?
16:11:00 JS: yes
16:11:01 Accessible Name calclulation: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#namecalculation
16:11:11 MC: So we will come back to that
16:11:24 MC: Action 86 change a change proposal for issue 133
16:11:31 Everit: What is 133?
16:11:34 issue-133?
16:11:34 ISSUE-133 does not exist
16:11:40 MC: Modal segement of the DOM
16:11:52 MC: Issue 134 command elements
16:12:10 Everit: I am happy to do those 2, can someone point me to an example of a change proposal
16:12:30 -> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals Change Proposals
16:12:33 MC: on the HTML wiki there is instuctions for writing a change proposal
16:12:54 Note the due date for 133 is Dec 10: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Nov/0162.html
16:12:57 MC: There is a list of change proposals, there is varying quality
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16:13:11 JS: I am not sure what I would suggest either
16:13:12 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/133
16:13:29 PC: December 10th is the deadline, should discuss by 3 December
16:13:41 JS: Hopefully we will talk about in a few minutes
16:14:02 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/134
16:14:03 PC: !33 is significantly more important that 134
16:14:07 See http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html for status of all issues
16:14:14 s/!33/133/
16:14:25 JS: Thanks PC
16:14:44 PC: These should have a due date relative to what going on in the working group
16:15:07 JS: Since 133 is a bit more important, lets do 133 first
16:15:15 TOPIC: Issue 133
16:15:37 JS: Let's discuss this for Everit to write a change proposal
16:16:01 s/Everit/Everett/
16:16:03 Everit: I was made aware last week, there there is a show modal dialog API
16:16:29 Everit: It will open a URL in a new browser window and return a value, in a modal state
16:17:05 Evrerit: Is this not sufficient means of identifying a modal dialog
16:17:44 Everit: There are some limitations to that method, so people continue to use the javascript way (old way)
16:17:50 q?
16:18:03 Everit: If people use the javascript way then we need to make that accessible too
16:18:57 CS: People don't use it for two reasons, pop-up bloclers stop it and people do not like the windows chrome, so people stopped using it
16:19:49 Everit: I thought about both of those things, it is far more work to load content into a URL, separate a small least of code in content management systems
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16:20:17 Everit: So it more than just creating a little HTML code
16:20:37 Everit: We need to have a way for authors to say this is modal code
16:20:42 +Mike
16:21:03 Evrit: I will take that as ano, are there any other comments?
16:21:13 MS: Sorry I am late
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16:21:28 JS: We are working on 133
16:21:45 JS: Everit has all the guidance we need, the show is yours
16:21:58 MS: Did we go through sub team reports
16:22:09 JS: No, we have those later
16:22:17 MS: Can we change topic to 134
16:22:21 TOPIC: 134
16:22:36 MS: Can you give us some background
16:22:56 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/134
16:23:10 ISSUE-134: Provide tablist and tab states for menu and command elements respectively
16:23:10 Sorry... adding notes to ISSUE-134 failed, please let sysreq know about it
16:23:18 Everit: HTML5 doesn't have a way to create a tabbed interface, tab panel, many JS toolkits allow developers to do this
16:23:29 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10831
16:23:44 Everit: HTML5 is suppose to enable developers, it should be considered for inclusion
16:24:04 MS: You raised a bug, the bug is marked as fixed, since the eidtor made a change
16:24:27 MS: reading the editors comment and he thought is is a CSS issue, presentational issue
16:24:50 MS: Everit responded that it is semantic
16:25:13 q?
16:25:34 Everit: It is both presentational and sematnic, the important part is identifying the tabs and tab panels, what is currently selected and what is in the containers
16:25:48 MS: Something that is the domain of WAI ARIA?
16:26:18 CS: It is covered by ARIA, but it is hard to build in JS, the panel is the child of the tab
16:26:33 q?
16:26:40 CS: I guess there are two things, it is hard ito build in script
16:26:53 RS: There are alot of UI libraries that have this widget
16:27:13 CS: A lot of UI libraries have then, but it should be available in browsers
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16:27:30 RS: I am not sure how they will work on mobile devices
16:27:59 CS: The semantics will allow for rendering on mobile, different presentation and control
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16:28:15 MS: The point today is what is the next step to move forward
16:28:39 MS: We need to decide how big a priority this is, do we move this to last call or not
16:28:59 MS: This is a critical feature for HTML5?
16:29:37 Everit: yes, I am strongly oppose leaving it to ARIA, I think HTML5 should not consider ARIA as fall back
16:29:54 + +1.617.300.aabb - is perhaps WGBH?
16:29:55 MS: So what do other s on the call think?
16:30:25 617.300 is wgbh.
16:30:41 Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:30:41 On the phone I see Everett_Zufelt, Michael_Cooper, Cynthia_Shelly, [Microsoft], Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina, Léonie_Watson, Jon_Gunderson, kliehm (muted), Mike, WGBH?
16:30:43 RS: I think it is a nice to have, it introduces problems with interoperability with desktop and mobile technologies for scripting libraries
16:30:44 [Microsoft] has paulc
16:30:59 RS: I can understand why HTML5 would not commit to implementatino
16:31:15 MC: We don't have many people from browser teams
16:31:29 PC: That questio is better directed at Frank
16:31:57 MS: I agree with RS that it is important, but it is up to developers
16:32:28 RS: There is no question about the importance, but the implementation may be a problem
16:32:39 CS: I am not sure the spec would be that difficult
16:32:41 q?
16:32:56 JS: How much of a spec impact is this?
16:33:45 RS: The HTML5 is very perspective on what UA should do, it will be a little harder for mobile to do, where is the tab panel placed
16:34:07 MS: Everit what is your take on the impact to the spec and user agent implementers?
16:35:04 Everit: Perhaps using stacking on mobile devices, list of tabs wrapping, some people might choose vertical displays, probably easy, but up to the author
16:35:45 Everit: The parent container can be sized and positioned, the borwsers will have default, the author can override with CSS and states
16:36:11 Everit: the rendering is up to the user agent
16:36:29 RS: If this being asked, do we need some specific CSS selectors?
16:36:47 MS: That is a detial to be worked out, before we moe forward we need a change proposal
16:37:10 MS: It is going to need to have a call from the chairs for concrete proposals.
16:37:34 JS: Everit has agreed to write a change proposal, it doesn't sound like we are in a great hurry
16:37:47 MS: We are at the point to last call
16:38:24 MS: If we want to get this in, we should have some urgancy, this will probably come up at last call though, others will note this as a deficiency
16:38:40 MS: Everit when could your proposal be ready?
16:38:55 Everit: Both by december 3rd
16:39:06 PC: 133 is much more important 134
16:39:34 PC: Maybe its so obvious, but I did not hear the work accessibility
16:40:01 PC: Was the bug about accessibility, make it easier for authors
16:40:19 Everit: Without this it is harder for authors
16:40:40 PC: You need to motivate people in the change proposal
16:40:57 PC: That is a really good rationale since that refutes the point of the editor
16:41:23 PC: I want to encourage you to spend time motivating the change proposals, than rationale
16:42:09 JS: The understanding that we come to the table with, is not the same we are reviewing the change proposals
16:42:14 q?
16:42:31 MS: Anything else anyone wants to say today?
16:42:39 MS: What's next
16:42:55 JS: Let's check in with the sub teams, I can do media
16:43:16 MS: Let's do media now
16:43:52 JS: We had a long call yesterday, we looked at SRT and what is supported today of the features requirements
16:44:18 JS: We had presentations on how to use TTL, it is a recommendation today, we had some slides on SRT
16:44:39 JS: We say 3 major areas of discrepency, it is fixable
16:44:59 JS: There is one issue in TTML related to live captioning
16:45:21 JS: The group is frowning on the use of XML, but we are a W3C group
16:45:22 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0214.html Minutes from Media Subteam Mega-Telecon on Wednesday 17
16:45:51 JS: We see that flat navigation is supported, it is not hierarchical, can't do the ePub nesting
16:46:06 JS: We discussed how it could be done
16:46:32 JS: Other issues are META data, I can't remember the 3rd issue
16:47:02 JS: We are not have an opinion of having a strong opinion, but we will emphasize the gaps on what need to be supported
16:47:35 MS: Tank you, good summary
16:47:46 MS: TOPIC: Bug Triage
16:48:05 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0204.html Minutes of the November 16 HTML Accessibility Bug-Triage teleconference
16:48:14 Martin: Three things...
16:48:18 Zakim, mute me
16:48:18 sorry, MikeSmith, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:48:22 Zakim, mute Mike
16:48:22 Mike should now be muted
16:48:24 JS: There is a open mike..
16:48:43 Martin: Looking at the issue of embedded content...
16:49:13 Martin: MC is creating a table we will discuss next tuesday
16:50:10 Martin: We are evaluating new incoming bugs, we are identfying A11y that are important, we need to assure the author and follow up with them
16:50:46 Martin: A11y keyboard issues ...
16:51:10 Zakim, unmute me
16:51:10 MikeSmith should no longer be muted
16:51:38 PC: So the bug triage team complete by January?
16:51:56 MS: We need to look at the rate at which bugs are being resolved
16:52:13 MS: Martin or MC do you have a response?
16:53:18 Martin: There is not like there is not something happening with the 77 bugs,
16:53:31 q+
16:53:41 PC: The working group has until January to move bugs to issues
16:53:48 MS: MC?
16:53:55 -WGBH?
16:54:11 MC: I think we are doing a pretty good job of what is task force priority,
16:55:07 MC: We try to do what is needed on the bug group, we assign to a likely person, I am not sure when a bug is assigned that is not a responsibility of the triage group , some bugs need the TF disucssiuon, like 133
16:55:33 ack me
16:56:00 MS: So one thing we can do to get some data, to take a call next week to do a checkpoint, to make sure we get this done by next week, JS and MC and I can talk about
16:56:17 CS: Tis call is on Thanksgiving next week
16:56:26 -[Microsoft]
16:56:32 MS: Thats right, not call next week
16:56:41 TOPIC: Canvas
16:56:57 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0198.html minutes: Canvas Subteam of HTML5 Accessibility TF 2010-11-15
16:57:12 RS: We have gone through the modifications to the CANVAS 2D api, that is under way
16:57:47 RS: The second issue, is like supporting rich text eidting and I issued a number to bugs to the HTML5 spec, that is almost done
16:58:05 RS: What I am doing now is writing some code, using the canvas sub tree
16:58:17 rrsagent, draft minutes
16:58:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/18-html-a11y-minutes.html jongund
16:59:09 RS: We want to make sure we have an API that will drive magification, and something separate for rich text editing, we will need addiitonal APIs, like get spell check errors
16:59:42 RS: even if we have a canvas sub tree, we do not want to allow FRAMES and IFRAMES, so that is where we are at
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17:00:05 MS: How can you avoid that
17:00:27 RS: This is hidden content, we made a lot of progress this week
17:00:33 MS: ANything else?
17:01:00 MS: No call next week, we will be back on 2 December
17:01:09 -kliehm
17:01:13 -Léonie_Watson
17:01:14 -Cynthia_Shelly
17:01:27 -Michael_Cooper
17:01:30 -Everett_Zufelt
17:01:40 -Jon_Gunderson
17:01:45 -Janina
17:01:47 -MikeSmith
17:01:49 -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:01:51 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended
17:01:52 Attendees were Michael_Cooper, Everett_Zufelt, Cynthia_Shelly, paulc, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina, +44.117.929.aaaa, Léonie_Watson, Jon_Gunderson, kliehm, +1.617.300.aabb,
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17:01:54 ... MikeSmith