IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-11-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:00:05 [janina]
cc-14 ttml=yes; websrt=css??
00:02:26 [janina]
Silvia to clarify with example
00:04:48 [janina]
cc-16/17 ttml=yes; websrt=no
00:04:55 [MikeSmith]
MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y
00:04:56 [silvia]
cc-15 tml=yes; websrt=yes
00:06:19 [janina]
cc-18 ttml=yes, via namespace, -- frowned on
00:06:32 [silvia]
00:07:52 [gfreed]
00:15:30 [janina]
cc-27 more difficult in xml; but is being done
00:15:57 [janina]
Silvia: has been raised as an issue
00:17:33 [janina]
ecc-1 more complex in websrt
00:17:57 [janina]
jf: important in educational settings, specifically dublin core
00:18:15 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
00:18:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate janina
00:19:22 [Zakim]
00:19:27 [janina]
zakim, call janina
00:19:27 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
00:19:29 [Zakim]
00:23:09 [janina]
pp-2 ttml=yes; websrt=no
00:24:58 [janina]
jf: seem two big differences--structural nav and text rendering; also metadata
00:28:03 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
00:28:04 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
00:28:44 [Sean]
paper talking about XML encoding and streaming
00:29:13 [Zakim]
00:31:01 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
00:31:01 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
00:31:19 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
00:31:19 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
00:31:34 [plh]
time will be 5pm ET in two weeks
00:31:45 [janina]
zakim, bye
00:31:45 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Janina, John_Foliot, Geoff_Freed, silvia, Sean_Hayes, Judy, Kenny_Johar, Plh
00:31:45 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-a11y
00:31:52 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
00:31:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate janina
00:32:01 [silvia]
have a great thanksgiving !
00:33:49 [silvia]
I don't even know what thanksgiving is :P
00:36:46 [plh]
00:37:37 [plh]
and the day after thanksgiving :
00:42:21 [gfreed]
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01:06:15 [silvia]
I was teasing ;)
01:52:20 [MikeSmith]
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03:08:26 [MikeSmith_]
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15:55:06 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
15:55:06 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:55:08 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:55:08 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #html-a11y
15:55:10 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
15:55:11 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:55:11 [trackbot]
Date: 18 November 2010
15:55:11 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
15:57:58 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has now started
15:58:06 [Zakim]
15:59:26 [Zakim]
15:59:47 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P2 is Everett_Zufelt
15:59:49 [Zakim]
+Everett_Zufelt; got it
15:59:49 [paulc]
paulc has joined #html-a11y
16:00:05 [MichaelC]
chair: Mike_Smith, Janina_Sajka
16:00:44 [MichaelC]
16:00:49 [MichaelC]
regrets+ Marco_Ranon
16:01:04 [Zakim]
16:01:14 [Zakim]
16:01:26 [paulc]
zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
16:01:27 [Zakim]
+paulc; got it
16:01:43 [Zakim]
16:01:58 [paulc]
Cynthia is easier to recognize.
16:02:11 [richardschwerdtfe]
richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
16:02:21 [paulc]
paulc is on mute
16:03:00 [paulc]
NW weather:
16:03:27 [janina]
zakim, call janina
16:03:27 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
16:03:28 [Zakim]
16:03:39 [kliehm]
kliehm has joined #html-a11y
16:03:39 [Zakim]
+ +44.117.929.aaaa
16:03:54 [MichaelC]
zakim, aaaa is Léonie_Watson
16:03:54 [Zakim]
+Léonie_Watson; got it
16:04:24 [jongund]
jongund has joined #html-a11y
16:04:25 [Zakim]
16:04:33 [MichaelC]
agenda+Actions Review
16:04:35 [MichaelC]
agenda+Issue-134 TabList-Role
16:04:36 [MichaelC]
agenda+Issue-133 Modal-Attribute
16:04:38 [MichaelC]
agenda+Other issue review
16:04:39 [MichaelC]
agenda+Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mappings; Media; Bug Triage
16:04:41 [MichaelC]
agenda+ next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe
16:04:42 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P7 is Jon_Gunderson
16:04:42 [Zakim]
+Jon_Gunderson; got it
16:05:59 [jongund]
JS: Action update, MC can you help
16:06:16 [jongund]
MC: Action 22 on me, organize testing joint task force
16:06:35 [jongund]
MC: I tried to do this at the TP, I recommend to postpone by 6 months
16:06:38 [MichaelC]
action-22 due 31 May 2011
16:06:38 [trackbot]
ACTION-22 Organize joint discussion of testing task force and html a11y task force due date now 31 May 2011
16:06:43 [jongund]
MC: Due 31 May 2011
16:06:50 [jongund]
MC: Action 72 on GR
16:07:10 [jongund]
MC: Update the definition of image element, GR is not here
16:07:25 [jongund]
MC: Do you status?
16:07:35 [jongund]
JS: That is still open too
16:07:48 [jongund]
MC: Action 85 on Everit on change proposal
16:08:24 [jongund]
JS: I am hoping that you are ok it, using the TITLE is not a good source as ALT text, we need to document it in the spec
16:08:50 [jongund]
JS: It maybe the spec says that, if not we need a change proposal, can you do that
16:09:06 [Zakim]
16:09:36 [jongund]
Everit: I would agree generally, many authors may use TITLE when they do not use ALT text, is there disagreement?
16:10:05 [jongund]
RS: We discussed this on the ARIA call, but ALT text is considered fall back content, so ALT is rendered when images are turned off
16:10:23 [jongund]
RS: TITLE would not be used unless there is no ALT
16:10:44 [jongund]
JS: We don't want to discuss the issue now
16:10:58 [jongund]
RS: Should I post the ARIA accessible name algorithm?
16:11:00 [jongund]
JS: yes
16:11:01 [richardschwerdtfe]
Accessible Name calclulation:
16:11:11 [jongund]
MC: So we will come back to that
16:11:24 [jongund]
MC: Action 86 change a change proposal for issue 133
16:11:31 [jongund]
Everit: What is 133?
16:11:34 [kliehm]
16:11:34 [trackbot]
ISSUE-133 does not exist
16:11:40 [jongund]
MC: Modal segement of the DOM
16:11:52 [jongund]
MC: Issue 134 command elements
16:12:10 [jongund]
Everit: I am happy to do those 2, can someone point me to an example of a change proposal
16:12:30 [MichaelC]
-> Change Proposals
16:12:33 [jongund]
MC: on the HTML wiki there is instuctions for writing a change proposal
16:12:54 [paulc]
Note the due date for 133 is Dec 10:
16:12:57 [jongund]
MC: There is a list of change proposals, there is varying quality
16:13:06 [Leonie_Watson]
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16:13:11 [jongund]
JS: I am not sure what I would suggest either
16:13:12 [kliehm]
16:13:29 [jongund]
PC: December 10th is the deadline, should discuss by 3 December
16:13:41 [jongund]
JS: Hopefully we will talk about in a few minutes
16:14:02 [kliehm]
16:14:03 [jongund]
PC: !33 is significantly more important that 134
16:14:07 [paulc]
See for status of all issues
16:14:14 [MichaelC]
16:14:25 [jongund]
JS: Thanks PC
16:14:44 [jongund]
PC: These should have a due date relative to what going on in the working group
16:15:07 [jongund]
JS: Since 133 is a bit more important, lets do 133 first
16:15:15 [jongund]
TOPIC: Issue 133
16:15:37 [jongund]
JS: Let's discuss this for Everit to write a change proposal
16:16:01 [kliehm]
16:16:03 [jongund]
Everit: I was made aware last week, there there is a show modal dialog API
16:16:29 [jongund]
Everit: It will open a URL in a new browser window and return a value, in a modal state
16:17:05 [jongund]
Evrerit: Is this not sufficient means of identifying a modal dialog
16:17:44 [jongund]
Everit: There are some limitations to that method, so people continue to use the javascript way (old way)
16:17:50 [janina]
16:18:03 [jongund]
Everit: If people use the javascript way then we need to make that accessible too
16:18:57 [jongund]
CS: People don't use it for two reasons, pop-up bloclers stop it and people do not like the windows chrome, so people stopped using it
16:19:49 [jongund]
Everit: I thought about both of those things, it is far more work to load content into a URL, separate a small least of code in content management systems
16:20:14 [MikeSmith]
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16:20:17 [jongund]
Everit: So it more than just creating a little HTML code
16:20:37 [jongund]
Everit: We need to have a way for authors to say this is modal code
16:20:42 [Zakim]
16:21:03 [jongund]
Evrit: I will take that as ano, are there any other comments?
16:21:13 [jongund]
MS: Sorry I am late
16:21:15 [Sean]
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16:21:28 [jongund]
JS: We are working on 133
16:21:45 [jongund]
JS: Everit has all the guidance we need, the show is yours
16:21:58 [jongund]
MS: Did we go through sub team reports
16:22:09 [jongund]
JS: No, we have those later
16:22:17 [jongund]
MS: Can we change topic to 134
16:22:21 [jongund]
TOPIC: 134
16:22:36 [jongund]
MS: Can you give us some background
16:22:56 [MikeSmith]
16:23:10 [MikeSmith]
ISSUE-134: Provide tablist and tab states for menu and command elements respectively
16:23:10 [trackbot]
Sorry... adding notes to ISSUE-134 failed, please let sysreq know about it
16:23:18 [jongund]
Everit: HTML5 doesn't have a way to create a tabbed interface, tab panel, many JS toolkits allow developers to do this
16:23:29 [MikeSmith]
16:23:44 [jongund]
Everit: HTML5 is suppose to enable developers, it should be considered for inclusion
16:24:04 [jongund]
MS: You raised a bug, the bug is marked as fixed, since the eidtor made a change
16:24:27 [jongund]
MS: reading the editors comment and he thought is is a CSS issue, presentational issue
16:24:50 [jongund]
MS: Everit responded that it is semantic
16:25:13 [MikeSmith]
16:25:34 [jongund]
Everit: It is both presentational and sematnic, the important part is identifying the tabs and tab panels, what is currently selected and what is in the containers
16:25:48 [jongund]
MS: Something that is the domain of WAI ARIA?
16:26:18 [jongund]
CS: It is covered by ARIA, but it is hard to build in JS, the panel is the child of the tab
16:26:33 [MikeSmith]
16:26:40 [jongund]
CS: I guess there are two things, it is hard ito build in script
16:26:53 [jongund]
RS: There are alot of UI libraries that have this widget
16:27:13 [jongund]
CS: A lot of UI libraries have then, but it should be available in browsers
16:27:25 [gfreed]
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16:27:30 [jongund]
RS: I am not sure how they will work on mobile devices
16:27:59 [jongund]
CS: The semantics will allow for rendering on mobile, different presentation and control
16:28:10 [Sean]
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16:28:15 [jongund]
MS: The point today is what is the next step to move forward
16:28:39 [jongund]
MS: We need to decide how big a priority this is, do we move this to last call or not
16:28:59 [jongund]
MS: This is a critical feature for HTML5?
16:29:37 [jongund]
Everit: yes, I am strongly oppose leaving it to ARIA, I think HTML5 should not consider ARIA as fall back
16:29:54 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.300.aabb - is perhaps WGBH?
16:29:55 [jongund]
MS: So what do other s on the call think?
16:30:25 [gfreed]
617.300 is wgbh.
16:30:41 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:30:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Everett_Zufelt, Michael_Cooper, Cynthia_Shelly, [Microsoft], Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina, Léonie_Watson, Jon_Gunderson, kliehm (muted), Mike, WGBH?
16:30:43 [jongund]
RS: I think it is a nice to have, it introduces problems with interoperability with desktop and mobile technologies for scripting libraries
16:30:44 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has paulc
16:30:59 [jongund]
RS: I can understand why HTML5 would not commit to implementatino
16:31:15 [jongund]
MC: We don't have many people from browser teams
16:31:29 [jongund]
PC: That questio is better directed at Frank
16:31:57 [jongund]
MS: I agree with RS that it is important, but it is up to developers
16:32:28 [jongund]
RS: There is no question about the importance, but the implementation may be a problem
16:32:39 [jongund]
CS: I am not sure the spec would be that difficult
16:32:41 [MikeSmith]
16:32:56 [jongund]
JS: How much of a spec impact is this?
16:33:45 [jongund]
RS: The HTML5 is very perspective on what UA should do, it will be a little harder for mobile to do, where is the tab panel placed
16:34:07 [jongund]
MS: Everit what is your take on the impact to the spec and user agent implementers?
16:35:04 [jongund]
Everit: Perhaps using stacking on mobile devices, list of tabs wrapping, some people might choose vertical displays, probably easy, but up to the author
16:35:45 [jongund]
Everit: The parent container can be sized and positioned, the borwsers will have default, the author can override with CSS and states
16:36:11 [jongund]
Everit: the rendering is up to the user agent
16:36:29 [jongund]
RS: If this being asked, do we need some specific CSS selectors?
16:36:47 [jongund]
MS: That is a detial to be worked out, before we moe forward we need a change proposal
16:37:10 [jongund]
MS: It is going to need to have a call from the chairs for concrete proposals.
16:37:34 [jongund]
JS: Everit has agreed to write a change proposal, it doesn't sound like we are in a great hurry
16:37:47 [jongund]
MS: We are at the point to last call
16:38:24 [jongund]
MS: If we want to get this in, we should have some urgancy, this will probably come up at last call though, others will note this as a deficiency
16:38:40 [jongund]
MS: Everit when could your proposal be ready?
16:38:55 [jongund]
Everit: Both by december 3rd
16:39:06 [jongund]
PC: 133 is much more important 134
16:39:34 [jongund]
PC: Maybe its so obvious, but I did not hear the work accessibility
16:40:01 [jongund]
PC: Was the bug about accessibility, make it easier for authors
16:40:19 [jongund]
Everit: Without this it is harder for authors
16:40:40 [jongund]
PC: You need to motivate people in the change proposal
16:40:57 [jongund]
PC: That is a really good rationale since that refutes the point of the editor
16:41:23 [jongund]
PC: I want to encourage you to spend time motivating the change proposals, than rationale
16:42:09 [jongund]
JS: The understanding that we come to the table with, is not the same we are reviewing the change proposals
16:42:14 [MikeSmith]
16:42:31 [jongund]
MS: Anything else anyone wants to say today?
16:42:39 [jongund]
MS: What's next
16:42:55 [jongund]
JS: Let's check in with the sub teams, I can do media
16:43:16 [jongund]
MS: Let's do media now
16:43:52 [jongund]
JS: We had a long call yesterday, we looked at SRT and what is supported today of the features requirements
16:44:18 [jongund]
JS: We had presentations on how to use TTL, it is a recommendation today, we had some slides on SRT
16:44:39 [jongund]
JS: We say 3 major areas of discrepency, it is fixable
16:44:59 [jongund]
JS: There is one issue in TTML related to live captioning
16:45:21 [jongund]
JS: The group is frowning on the use of XML, but we are a W3C group
16:45:22 [MikeSmith]
-> Minutes from Media Subteam Mega-Telecon on Wednesday 17
16:45:51 [jongund]
JS: We see that flat navigation is supported, it is not hierarchical, can't do the ePub nesting
16:46:06 [jongund]
JS: We discussed how it could be done
16:46:32 [jongund]
JS: Other issues are META data, I can't remember the 3rd issue
16:47:02 [jongund]
JS: We are not have an opinion of having a strong opinion, but we will emphasize the gaps on what need to be supported
16:47:35 [jongund]
MS: Tank you, good summary
16:47:46 [jongund]
MS: TOPIC: Bug Triage
16:48:05 [MikeSmith]
-> Minutes of the November 16 HTML Accessibility Bug-Triage teleconference
16:48:14 [jongund]
Martin: Three things...
16:48:18 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, mute me
16:48:18 [Zakim]
sorry, MikeSmith, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:48:22 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, mute Mike
16:48:22 [Zakim]
Mike should now be muted
16:48:24 [jongund]
JS: There is a open mike..
16:48:43 [jongund]
Martin: Looking at the issue of embedded content...
16:49:13 [jongund]
Martin: MC is creating a table we will discuss next tuesday
16:50:10 [jongund]
Martin: We are evaluating new incoming bugs, we are identfying A11y that are important, we need to assure the author and follow up with them
16:50:46 [jongund]
Martin: A11y keyboard issues ...
16:51:10 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, unmute me
16:51:10 [Zakim]
MikeSmith should no longer be muted
16:51:38 [jongund]
PC: So the bug triage team complete by January?
16:51:56 [jongund]
MS: We need to look at the rate at which bugs are being resolved
16:52:13 [jongund]
MS: Martin or MC do you have a response?
16:53:18 [jongund]
Martin: There is not like there is not something happening with the 77 bugs,
16:53:31 [MichaelC]
16:53:41 [jongund]
PC: The working group has until January to move bugs to issues
16:53:48 [jongund]
16:53:55 [Zakim]
16:54:11 [jongund]
MC: I think we are doing a pretty good job of what is task force priority,
16:55:07 [jongund]
MC: We try to do what is needed on the bug group, we assign to a likely person, I am not sure when a bug is assigned that is not a responsibility of the triage group , some bugs need the TF disucssiuon, like 133
16:55:33 [MichaelC]
ack me
16:56:00 [jongund]
MS: So one thing we can do to get some data, to take a call next week to do a checkpoint, to make sure we get this done by next week, JS and MC and I can talk about
16:56:17 [jongund]
CS: Tis call is on Thanksgiving next week
16:56:26 [Zakim]
16:56:32 [jongund]
MS: Thats right, not call next week
16:56:41 [jongund]
TOPIC: Canvas
16:56:57 [MikeSmith]
-> minutes: Canvas Subteam of HTML5 Accessibility TF 2010-11-15
16:57:12 [jongund]
RS: We have gone through the modifications to the CANVAS 2D api, that is under way
16:57:47 [jongund]
RS: The second issue, is like supporting rich text eidting and I issued a number to bugs to the HTML5 spec, that is almost done
16:58:05 [jongund]
RS: What I am doing now is writing some code, using the canvas sub tree
16:58:17 [jongund]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:58:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jongund
16:59:09 [jongund]
RS: We want to make sure we have an API that will drive magification, and something separate for rich text editing, we will need addiitonal APIs, like get spell check errors
16:59:42 [jongund]
RS: even if we have a canvas sub tree, we do not want to allow FRAMES and IFRAMES, so that is where we are at
16:59:57 [kliehm]
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17:00:01 [gfreed]
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17:00:05 [jongund]
MS: How can you avoid that
17:00:27 [jongund]
RS: This is hidden content, we made a lot of progress this week
17:00:33 [jongund]
MS: ANything else?
17:01:00 [jongund]
MS: No call next week, we will be back on 2 December
17:01:09 [Zakim]
17:01:13 [Zakim]
17:01:14 [Zakim]
17:01:27 [Zakim]
17:01:30 [Zakim]
17:01:40 [Zakim]
17:01:45 [Zakim]
17:01:47 [Zakim]
17:01:49 [Zakim]
17:01:51 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended
17:01:52 [Zakim]
Attendees were Michael_Cooper, Everett_Zufelt, Cynthia_Shelly, paulc, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina, +44.117.929.aaaa, Léonie_Watson, Jon_Gunderson, kliehm, +1.617.300.aabb,
17:01:52 [janina]
janina has left #html-a11y
17:01:54 [Zakim]
... MikeSmith