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15:55:06 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/18-html-a11y-irc
15:55:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:55:08 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-a11y
15:55:10 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
15:55:11 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:55:11 <trackbot> Date: 18 November 2010
15:55:11 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
15:57:58 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has now started
15:58:06 <Zakim> +??P2
15:59:26 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper
15:59:47 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P2 is Everett_Zufelt
15:59:49 <Zakim> +Everett_Zufelt; got it
15:59:49 <paulc> paulc has joined #html-a11y
16:00:05 <MichaelC> chair: Mike_Smith, Janina_Sajka
16:00:44 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0213.html
16:00:49 <MichaelC> regrets+ Marco_Ranon
16:01:04 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
16:01:14 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:01:26 <paulc> zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
16:01:27 <Zakim> +paulc; got it
16:01:43 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:01:58 <paulc> Cynthia is easier to recognize.
16:02:11 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
16:02:21 <paulc> paulc is on mute
16:03:00 <paulc> NW weather: http://wsdot.wa.gov/traffic/passes/snoqualmie/
16:03:27 <janina> zakim, call janina
16:03:27 <Zakim> ok, janina; the call is being made
16:03:28 <Zakim> +Janina
16:03:39 <kliehm> kliehm has joined #html-a11y
16:03:39 <Zakim> + +44.117.929.aaaa
16:03:54 <MichaelC> zakim, aaaa is Léonie_Watson
16:03:54 <Zakim> +Léonie_Watson; got it
16:04:24 <jongund> jongund has joined #html-a11y
16:04:25 <Zakim> +??P7
16:04:33 <MichaelC> agenda+	Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
16:04:35 <MichaelC> agenda+	Issue-134 TabList-Role
16:04:36 <MichaelC> agenda+	Issue-133 Modal-Attribute
16:04:38 <MichaelC> agenda+	Other issue review
16:04:39 <MichaelC> agenda+	Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mappings; Media; Bug Triage
16:04:41 <MichaelC> agenda+ next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe
16:04:42 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P7 is Jon_Gunderson
16:04:42 <Zakim> +Jon_Gunderson; got it
16:05:59 <jongund> JS: Action update, MC can you help
16:06:16 <jongund> MC: Action 22 on me, organize testing joint task force
16:06:35 <jongund> MC: I tried to do this at the TP, I recommend to postpone by 6 months
16:06:38 <MichaelC> action-22 due 31 May 2011
16:06:38 <trackbot> ACTION-22 Organize joint discussion of testing task force and html a11y task force due date now 31 May 2011
16:06:43 <jongund> MC: Due 31 May 2011
16:06:50 <jongund> MC: Action 72 on GR
16:07:10 <jongund> MC: Update the definition of image element, GR is not here
16:07:25 <jongund> MC: Do you status?
16:07:35 <jongund> JS: That is still open too
16:07:48 <jongund> MC: Action 85 on Everit on change proposal
16:08:24 <jongund> JS: I am hoping that you are ok it, using the TITLE is not a good source as ALT text, we need to document it in the spec
16:08:50 <jongund> JS: It maybe the spec says that, if not we need a change proposal, can you do that
16:09:06 <Zakim> +kliehm
16:09:36 <jongund> Everit: I would agree generally, many authors may use TITLE when they do not use ALT text, is there disagreement?
16:10:05 <jongund> RS: We discussed this on the ARIA call, but ALT text is considered fall back content, so ALT is rendered when images are turned off
16:10:23 <jongund> RS: TITLE would not be used unless there is no ALT
16:10:44 <jongund> JS: We don't want to discuss the issue now
16:10:58 <jongund> RS: Should I post the ARIA accessible name algorithm?
16:11:00 <jongund> JS: yes
16:11:01 <richardschwerdtfe> Accessible Name calclulation: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#namecalculation
16:11:11 <jongund> MC: So we will come back to that
16:11:24 <jongund> MC: Action 86 change a change proposal for issue 133
16:11:31 <jongund> Everit: What is 133?
16:11:34 <kliehm> issue-133?
16:11:34 <trackbot> ISSUE-133 does not exist
16:11:40 <jongund> MC: Modal segement of the DOM
16:11:52 <jongund> MC: Issue 134 command elements
16:12:10 <jongund> Everit: I am happy to do those 2, can someone point me to an example of a change proposal
16:12:30 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals Change Proposals
16:12:33 <jongund> MC: on the HTML wiki there is instuctions for writing a change proposal
16:12:54 <paulc> Note the due date for 133 is Dec 10: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Nov/0162.html
16:12:57 <jongund> MC: There is a list of change proposals, there is varying quality
16:13:06 <Leonie_Watson> Leonie_Watson has joined #html-a11y
16:13:11 <jongund> JS: I am not sure what I would suggest either
16:13:12 <kliehm> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/133
16:13:29 <jongund> PC: December 10th is the deadline, should discuss by 3 December
16:13:41 <jongund> JS: Hopefully we will talk about in a few minutes
16:14:02 <kliehm> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/134
16:14:03 <jongund> PC: !33 is significantly more important that 134
16:14:07 <paulc> See http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html for status of all issues
16:14:14 <MichaelC> s/!33/133/
16:14:25 <jongund> JS: Thanks PC
16:14:44 <jongund> PC: These should have a due date relative to what going on in the working group
16:15:07 <jongund> JS: Since 133 is a bit more important, lets do 133 first
16:15:15 <jongund> TOPIC: Issue 133
16:15:37 <jongund> JS: Let's discuss this for Everit to write a change proposal
16:16:01 <kliehm> s/Everit/Everett/
16:16:03 <jongund> Everit: I was made aware last week, there there is a show modal dialog API
16:16:29 <jongund> Everit: It will open a URL in a new browser window and return a value, in a modal state
16:17:05 <jongund> Evrerit: Is this not sufficient means of identifying a modal dialog
16:17:44 <jongund> Everit: There are some limitations to that method, so people continue to use the javascript way (old way)
16:17:50 <janina> q?
16:18:03 <jongund> Everit: If people use the javascript way then we need to make that accessible too
16:18:57 <jongund> CS: People don't use it for two reasons, pop-up bloclers stop it and people do not like the windows chrome, so people stopped using it
16:19:49 <jongund> Everit: I thought about both of those things, it is far more work to load content into a URL, separate a small least of code in content management systems
16:20:14 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y
16:20:17 <jongund> Everit: So it more than just creating a little HTML code
16:20:37 <jongund> Everit: We need to have a way for authors to say this is modal code
16:20:42 <Zakim> +Mike
16:21:03 <jongund> Evrit: I will take that as ano, are there any other comments?
16:21:13 <jongund> MS: Sorry I am late
16:21:15 <Sean> Sean has joined #html-a11y
16:21:28 <jongund> JS: We are working on 133
16:21:45 <jongund> JS: Everit has all the guidance we need, the show is yours
16:21:58 <jongund> MS: Did we go through sub team reports
16:22:09 <jongund> JS: No, we have those later
16:22:17 <jongund> MS: Can we change topic to 134
16:22:21 <jongund> TOPIC: 134
16:22:36 <jongund> MS: Can you give us some background
16:22:56 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/134
16:23:10 <MikeSmith> ISSUE-134: Provide tablist and tab states for menu and command elements respectively
16:23:10 <trackbot> Sorry... adding notes to ISSUE-134 failed, please let sysreq know about it
16:23:18 <jongund> Everit: HTML5 doesn't have a way to create a tabbed interface, tab panel, many JS toolkits allow developers to do this
16:23:29 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10831
16:23:44 <jongund> Everit: HTML5 is suppose to enable developers, it should be considered for inclusion
16:24:04 <jongund> MS: You raised a bug, the bug is marked as fixed, since the eidtor made a change
16:24:27 <jongund> MS: reading the editors comment and he thought is is a CSS issue, presentational issue
16:24:50 <jongund> MS: Everit responded that it is semantic
16:25:13 <MikeSmith> q?
16:25:34 <jongund> Everit: It is both presentational and sematnic, the important part is identifying the tabs and tab panels, what is currently selected and what is in the containers
16:25:48 <jongund> MS: Something that is the domain of WAI ARIA?
16:26:18 <jongund> CS: It is covered by ARIA, but it is hard to build in JS, the panel is the child of the tab
16:26:33 <MikeSmith> q?
16:26:40 <jongund> CS: I guess there are two things, it is hard ito build in script
16:26:53 <jongund> RS: There are alot of UI libraries that have this widget
16:27:13 <jongund> CS: A lot of UI libraries have then, but it should be available in browsers
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16:27:30 <jongund> RS: I am not sure how they will work on mobile devices
16:27:59 <jongund> CS: The semantics will allow for rendering on mobile, different presentation and control 
16:28:10 <Sean> Sean has joined #html-a11y
16:28:15 <jongund> MS: The point today is what is the next step to move forward
16:28:39 <jongund> MS: We need to decide how big a priority this is, do we move this to last call or not
16:28:59 <jongund> MS: This is a critical feature for HTML5?
16:29:37 <jongund> Everit: yes, I am strongly oppose leaving it to ARIA, I think HTML5 should not consider ARIA as fall back
16:29:54 <Zakim> + +1.617.300.aabb - is perhaps WGBH?
16:29:55 <jongund> MS: So what do other s on the call think?
16:30:25 <gfreed> 617.300 is wgbh.
16:30:41 <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:30:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see Everett_Zufelt, Michael_Cooper, Cynthia_Shelly, [Microsoft], Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina, Léonie_Watson, Jon_Gunderson, kliehm (muted), Mike, WGBH?
16:30:43 <jongund> RS: I think it is a nice to have, it introduces problems with interoperability with desktop and mobile technologies for scripting libraries
16:30:44 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has paulc
16:30:59 <jongund> RS: I can understand why HTML5 would not commit to implementatino
16:31:15 <jongund> MC: We don't have many people from browser teams
16:31:29 <jongund> PC: That questio is better directed at Frank
16:31:57 <jongund> MS: I agree with RS that it is important, but it is up to developers
16:32:28 <jongund> RS: There is no question about the importance, but the implementation may be a problem
16:32:39 <jongund> CS: I am not sure the spec would be that difficult
16:32:41 <MikeSmith> q?
16:32:56 <jongund> JS: How much of a spec impact is this?
16:33:45 <jongund> RS: The HTML5 is very perspective on what UA should do, it will be a little harder for mobile to do, where is the tab panel placed
16:34:07 <jongund> MS: Everit what is your take on the impact to the spec and user agent implementers?
16:35:04 <jongund> Everit: Perhaps using stacking on mobile devices, list of tabs wrapping, some people might choose vertical displays, probably easy, but up to the author
16:35:45 <jongund> Everit: The parent container can be sized and positioned, the borwsers will have default, the author can override with CSS and states
16:36:11 <jongund> Everit: the rendering is up to the user agent
16:36:29 <jongund> RS: If this being asked, do we need some specific CSS selectors?
16:36:47 <jongund> MS: That is a detial to be worked out, before we moe forward we need a change proposal
16:37:10 <jongund> MS: It is going to need to have a call from the chairs for concrete proposals.
16:37:34 <jongund> JS: Everit has agreed to write a change proposal, it doesn't sound like we are in a great hurry
16:37:47 <jongund> MS: We are at the point to last call
16:38:24 <jongund> MS: If we want to get this in, we should have some urgancy, this will probably come up at last call though, others will note this as a deficiency
16:38:40 <jongund> MS: Everit when could your proposal be ready?
16:38:55 <jongund> Everit: Both by december 3rd
16:39:06 <jongund> PC: 133 is much more important 134
16:39:34 <jongund> PC: Maybe its so obvious, but I did not hear the work accessibility
16:40:01 <jongund> PC: Was the bug about accessibility, make it easier for authors
16:40:19 <jongund> Everit: Without this it is harder for authors
16:40:40 <jongund> PC: You need to motivate people in the change proposal
16:40:57 <jongund> PC: That is a really good rationale since that refutes the point of the editor
16:41:23 <jongund> PC: I want to encourage you to spend time motivating the change proposals, than rationale
16:42:09 <jongund> JS: The understanding that we come to the table with, is not the same we are reviewing the change proposals 
16:42:14 <MikeSmith> q?
16:42:31 <jongund> MS: Anything else anyone wants to say today?
16:42:39 <jongund> MS: What's next
16:42:55 <jongund> JS: Let's check in with the sub teams, I can do media
16:43:16 <jongund> MS: Let's do media now
16:43:52 <jongund> JS: We had a long call yesterday, we looked at SRT and what is supported today of the features requirements
16:44:18 <jongund> JS: We had presentations on how to use TTL, it is a recommendation today, we had some slides on SRT
16:44:39 <jongund> JS: We say 3 major areas of discrepency, it is fixable
16:44:59 <jongund> JS: There is one issue in TTML related to live captioning
16:45:21 <jongund> JS: The group is frowning on the use of XML, but we are a W3C group
16:45:22 <MikeSmith> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0214.html Minutes from Media Subteam Mega-Telecon on Wednesday 17
16:45:51 <jongund> JS: We see that flat navigation is supported, it is not hierarchical, can't do the ePub nesting
16:46:06 <jongund> JS: We discussed how it could be done
16:46:32 <jongund> JS: Other issues are META data, I can't remember the 3rd issue
16:47:02 <jongund> JS: We are not have an opinion of having a strong opinion, but we will emphasize the gaps on what need to be supported
16:47:35 <jongund> MS: Tank you, good summary
16:47:46 <jongund> MS: TOPIC: Bug Triage
16:48:05 <MikeSmith> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0204.html Minutes of the November 16 HTML Accessibility Bug-Triage teleconference
16:48:14 <jongund> Martin: Three things...
16:48:18 <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute me
16:48:18 <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:48:22 <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute Mike
16:48:22 <Zakim> Mike should now be muted
16:48:24 <jongund> JS: There is a open mike..
16:48:43 <jongund> Martin: Looking at the issue of embedded content...
16:49:13 <jongund> Martin: MC is creating a table we will discuss next tuesday
16:50:10 <jongund> Martin: We are evaluating new incoming bugs, we are identfying A11y that are important, we need to assure the author and follow up with them 
16:50:46 <jongund> Martin: A11y keyboard issues ...
16:51:10 <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute me
16:51:10 <Zakim> MikeSmith should no longer be muted
16:51:38 <jongund> PC: So the bug triage team complete by January?
16:51:56 <jongund> MS: We need to look at the rate at which bugs are being resolved
16:52:13 <jongund> MS: Martin or MC do you have a response?
16:53:18 <jongund> Martin: There is not like there is not something happening with the 77 bugs, 
16:53:31 <MichaelC> q+
16:53:41 <jongund> PC: The working group has until January to move bugs to issues
16:53:48 <jongund> MS: MC?
16:53:55 <Zakim> -WGBH?
16:54:11 <jongund> MC: I think we are doing a pretty good job of what is task force priority,
16:55:07 <jongund> MC: We try to do what is needed on the bug group, we assign to a likely person, I am not sure when a bug is assigned that is not a responsibility of the triage group , some bugs need the TF disucssiuon, like 133
16:55:33 <MichaelC> ack me
16:56:00 <jongund> MS: So one thing we can do to get some data, to take a call next week to do a checkpoint, to make sure we get this done by next week, JS and MC and I can talk about
16:56:17 <jongund> CS: Tis call is on Thanksgiving next week
16:56:26 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:56:32 <jongund> MS: Thats right, not call next week
16:56:41 <jongund> TOPIC: Canvas
16:56:57 <MikeSmith> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0198.html minutes: Canvas Subteam of HTML5 Accessibility TF 2010-11-15 
16:57:12 <jongund> RS: We have gone through the modifications to the CANVAS 2D api, that is under way
16:57:47 <jongund> RS: The second issue, is like supporting rich text eidting and I issued a number to bugs to the HTML5 spec, that is almost done
16:58:05 <jongund> RS: What I am doing now is writing some code, using the canvas sub tree
16:58:17 <jongund> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:58:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/18-html-a11y-minutes.html jongund
16:59:09 <jongund> RS: We want to make sure we have an API that will drive magification, and something separate for rich text editing, we will need addiitonal APIs, like get spell check errors
16:59:42 <jongund> RS: even if we have a canvas sub tree, we do not want to allow FRAMES and IFRAMES, so that is where we are at
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17:00:01 <gfreed> gfreed has left #html-a11y
17:00:05 <jongund> MS: How can you avoid that
17:00:27 <jongund> RS: This is hidden content, we made a lot of progress this week
17:00:33 <jongund> MS: ANything else?
17:01:00 <jongund> MS: No call next week, we will be back on 2 December 
17:01:09 <Zakim> -kliehm
17:01:13 <Zakim> -Léonie_Watson
17:01:14 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
17:01:27 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
17:01:30 <Zakim> -Everett_Zufelt
17:01:40 <Zakim> -Jon_Gunderson
17:01:45 <Zakim> -Janina
17:01:47 <Zakim> -MikeSmith
17:01:49 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:01:51 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended
17:01:52 <Zakim> Attendees were Michael_Cooper, Everett_Zufelt, Cynthia_Shelly, paulc, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina, +44.117.929.aaaa, Léonie_Watson, Jon_Gunderson, kliehm, +1.617.300.aabb,
17:01:52 <janina> janina has left #html-a11y
17:01:54 <Zakim> ... MikeSmith