IRC log of webfonts on 2010-11-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:58:51 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
14:58:53 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:58:53 [Zakim]
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Zakim, this will be 3668
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ok, trackbot; I see IA_Fonts()10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:58:56 [trackbot]
Meeting: WebFonts Working Group Teleconference
14:58:56 [trackbot]
Date: 17 November 2010
14:59:03 [ChrisL]
Chair: Vlad
14:59:07 [Vlad]
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IA_Fonts()10:00AM has now started
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+ +1.206.324.aaaa
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15:00:59 [ChrisL]
zakim, who is here?
15:01:00 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.206.324.aaaa, Erik, Vlad, ChrisL
15:01:01 [Zakim]
On IRC I see cslye, Vlad, Zakim, RRSAgent, sylvaing, ChrisL, erik_, jdaggett, trackbot
15:01:10 [tal]
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15:01:13 [Zakim]
+ +1.510.816.aabb
15:01:32 [ChrisL]
zakim, aaa is cslye
15:01:32 [Zakim]
sorry, ChrisL, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
15:01:59 [cslye]
zakim, aabb is cslye
15:01:59 [Zakim]
+cslye; got it
15:02:30 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.882.aacc
15:02:32 [ChrisL]
zakim, aaaa is Tal
15:02:32 [Zakim]
+Tal; got it
15:02:41 [Zakim]
15:02:52 [jdaggett]
zakim, p14 is jdaggett
15:02:52 [Zakim]
sorry, jdaggett, I do not recognize a party named 'p14'
15:03:11 [jdaggett]
zakim, ??P14 is jdaggett
15:03:11 [Zakim]
+jdaggett; got it
15:03:45 [ChrisL]
zakim, who is here?
15:03:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Tal, Erik, Vlad, ChrisL, cslye, tal, +1.425.882.aacc, jdaggett
15:03:47 [Zakim]
On IRC I see tal, cslye, Vlad, Zakim, RRSAgent, sylvaing, ChrisL, erik_, jdaggett, trackbot
15:04:15 [ChrisL]
zakim, aacc is Sergei
15:04:15 [Zakim]
+Sergei; got it
15:04:31 [sergeym]
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15:06:06 [cslye]
Vlad: EPUB list conversation took place that WOFF is redundant for EPUB.
15:06:28 [ChrisL]
scribenick: cslye
15:07:19 [cslye]
Vlad: Font solutions are fragmented; thinks WOFF is best solution.
15:07:37 [cslye]
Vlad: Many list members are undecided.
15:08:01 [cslye]
What is the list?
15:08:35 [ChrisL]
15:08:41 [cslye]
Vlad: List is:
15:09:31 [cslye]
I will talk to the Adobe person about it.
15:10:11 [cslye]
jdaggett: EPUB font is embedded, not linked.
15:10:31 [John_Hudson]
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15:10:44 [ChrisL]
We would like woff to be ubiquitous though, and we would like epub to deviate from Web standarfds as little as possible
15:10:52 [cslye]
Vlad: If the font data is packaged inside the file, it's embedded, and linking is not embedded.
15:11:09 [ChrisL]
its not embedded in the sense of being part of the same document file
15:12:13 [cslye]
ChrisL: Saving web pages: Don't want EPUB to deviate too much from that.
15:13:04 [cslye]
jdaggett: I don't see where we need to say explicitly that any particular font should be used in EPUB. Can recommend WOFF, though.
15:13:48 [Zakim]
+ +1.250.247.aadd
15:14:13 [Zakim]
- +1.250.247.aadd
15:14:14 [jdaggett]
zakim, who is noisy
15:14:14 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is noisy', jdaggett
15:14:38 [jdaggett]
zakim, mute 1.250.247.aadd
15:14:39 [Zakim]
sorry, jdaggett, I do not know which phone connection belongs to 1.250.247.aadd
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+ +1.250.247.aaee
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- +1.250.247.aaee
15:14:59 [howcome]
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+ +47.23.69.aaff
15:15:30 [John]
[Sorry. There seems to besomething wrong with my phone.]
15:15:30 [howcome]
zakim, aaff is howcome
15:15:30 [Zakim]
+howcome; got it
15:15:53 [cslye]
Vlad: EPUB has a "mangled font" algorithm that was optional.
15:16:23 [cslye]
Vlad: WOFF is a better solution since it has more support and has metadata.
15:16:42 [cslye]
jdaggett: That's a dumb requirement.
15:18:08 [cslye]
sergeym: The spec wants to avoid moving a font from one EPUB to aother.
15:18:43 [Zakim]
+ +1.250.668.aagg
15:18:55 [cslye]
Vlad: I'm not concerned about users with proper license.
15:19:11 [cslye]
sergeym: Just clarifying what the spec actually says.
15:19:26 [cslye]
sergeym: (The EPUB spec.)
15:19:55 [cslye]
Vlad: WOFF informs the user.
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15:20:12 [cslye]
Vlad: Keep honest people honest.
15:20:28 [cslye]
Vlad: Moving on...
15:20:52 [cslye]
First agenda item: Review open action items.
15:20:59 [John]
zakim, aagg is John
15:20:59 [Zakim]
+John; got it
15:21:06 [cslye]
Action 29: FAQ.
15:21:06 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - 29
15:21:23 [ChrisL]
15:21:23 [trackbot]
ACTION-29 -- John Hudson to review woff faq with chris and vlad -- due 2010-10-06 -- OPEN
15:21:23 [trackbot]
15:21:45 [cslye]
15:21:46 [trackbot]
ACTION-36 -- Chris Lilley to recategorise the general conformance criteria -- due 2010-11-11 -- OPEN
15:21:46 [trackbot]
15:22:00 [cslye]
Can be closed.
15:22:05 [cslye]
15:22:05 [trackbot]
ACTION-37 -- Chris Lilley to get cracking on test suite. -- due 2010-11-11 -- OPEN
15:22:05 [trackbot]
15:22:10 [ChrisL]
close action-36
15:22:11 [trackbot]
ACTION-36 Recategorise the general conformance criteria closed
15:22:31 [cslye]
close action-37
15:22:31 [trackbot]
ACTION-37 Get cracking on test suite. closed
15:22:47 [ChrisL]
15:22:47 [trackbot]
ACTION-38 -- John Daggett to help with font creation for the test suite. -- due 2010-11-11 -- OPEN
15:22:47 [trackbot]
15:23:10 [cslye]
We will review Tal's test suite stuff today
15:23:25 [cslye]
Vlad: Should we keep it open?
15:23:33 [jdaggett]
yeah, closing it sounds fine
15:23:42 [cslye]
ChrisL: Close it and make a more specific action.
15:23:49 [cslye]
close action-38
15:23:49 [trackbot]
ACTION-38 Help with font creation for the test suite. closed
15:24:06 [cslye]
15:24:06 [trackbot]
ACTION-43 -- Jonathan Kew to clarify that @id on uniqueid is required -- due 2010-11-17 -- OPEN
15:24:06 [trackbot]
15:24:13 [cslye]
close action-43
15:24:14 [trackbot]
ACTION-43 Clarify that @id on uniqueid is required closed
15:24:18 [cslye]
15:24:18 [trackbot]
ACTION-44 -- Jonathan Kew to clarify schema language in text to say one or more text elements -- due 2010-11-17 -- OPEN
15:24:18 [trackbot]
15:24:37 [cslye]
close action-44
15:24:37 [trackbot]
ACTION-44 Clarify schema language in text to say one or more text elements closed
15:24:43 [cslye]
close action-45
15:24:43 [trackbot]
ACTION-45 Make item element a required chilkd of extension closed
15:24:58 [cslye]
15:24:58 [trackbot]
ACTION-46 -- Chris Lilley to add the two missing conformance statements and split out the stylesheet -- due 2010-11-17 -- OPEN
15:24:58 [trackbot]
15:25:53 [cslye]
ChrisL: They were added. Can be closed.
15:26:00 [cslye]
close action-46
15:26:00 [trackbot]
ACTION-46 Add the two missing conformance statements and split out the stylesheet closed
15:26:15 [cslye]
close action-47
15:26:15 [trackbot]
ACTION-47 Edit the media registration to say application/font-woff closed
15:26:46 [cslye]
ChrisL: Was done in accordance with Last Call.
15:27:07 [ChrisL]
the general ones are here
15:27:08 [ChrisL]
15:27:53 [cslye]
ChrisL: Leave untestable things as lowercase 'must'?
15:28:51 [cslye]
ChrisL: Take untestable things out of conformance spec.
15:29:03 [cslye]
ChrisL: Just recommend testing them.
15:29:43 [cslye]
jdaggett: Just mark what's not testable.
15:29:53 [cslye]
ChrisL: I agree, but...
15:30:25 [jfkthame_afk]
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15:31:09 [cslye]
ChrisL: Following CSS3 font spec is hard to test.
15:31:33 [cslye]
jdaggett: Benefit to leaving CSS3 requirement is useful, though.
15:31:37 [Zakim]
15:32:35 [cslye]
Vlad: Better to keep these things in the spec, even if they're difficult/impossible to test.
15:33:25 [cslye]
Vlad: Let's review the test plans along with looking at Tal's stuff.
15:33:43 [cslye]
Tal: Python script generates valid and invalid WOFF.
15:33:56 [cslye]
Tal: Link them to testable assertions.
15:34:42 [cslye]
Tal: Should I eliminate tests that aren't tied specifically to testable assertions?
15:34:50 [cslye]
ChrisL: NO NO NO!
15:35:12 [cslye]
Tal: Tricky to make a font that has only one thing wrong.
15:35:43 [cslye]
Tal: I have a dump of test cases I have now.
15:37:02 [ChrisL]
ref as in reference
15:37:12 [cslye]
jdaggett: Ref test compares two documents; can be automated.
15:38:05 [cslye]
jdaggett: Alternate test shows PASS/FAIL, when a reference is not available.
15:38:30 [cslye]
jdaggett: Let's have both kinds of tests.
15:38:55 [cslye]
Tal: Keep the sfnt as simple as possible; with single character?
15:39:27 [cslye]
sergeym: Existing test fonts work fine; we don't need something new.
15:39:39 [tal]
15:41:09 [cslye]
Tal: Ref tests use a raw font for comparison.
15:41:35 [cslye]
Better to use an installed font, instead of linked?
15:43:01 [cslye]
jdaggett: Have an installed fallback font to use as a flag, to indicate that fonts are loading properly.
15:45:08 [cslye]
Vlad: Create a font with mis-mapped characters, so that "PASS" = "FAIL"
15:45:16 [jdaggett]
15:45:20 [ChrisL]
Text fotr a 'must load' test is 'FAIL" and the font has P glyph for F etc so it looks like'PASS' when loaded
15:45:24 [jdaggett]
15:45:49 [jdaggett]
those are examples of a reftest that uses
15:46:00 [jdaggett]
the sort of thing we're talking about
15:46:32 [cslye]
sergeym: We need to show when fonts don't load at all. Need separate font for that?
15:46:56 [cslye]
jdaggett: We have all this already.
15:47:14 [ChrisL]
Text for a 'must not load' test is 'PASS" and the font has F glyph for P etc so it looks like 'FAIL' when erroneously loaded
15:49:11 [cslye]
tal: Some testable assertions test file format. Should a UA test pass even if file format is invalid?
15:49:45 [cslye]
tal: Checksums - validator will fail bad checksums, but UA should pass.
15:50:26 [cslye]
tal: Need test case for UA where checksums are bad, but UA will pass it.
15:50:42 [cslye]
Vlad: Don't see why we need this test.
15:51:07 [cslye]
jdaggett: We don't want UAs to be required to fail it, but they can if they want.
15:52:58 [cslye]
Vlad: Do we have tests for UA with bad metadata?
15:53:36 [cslye]
tal: I will add some of these edge cases that aren't there.
15:55:00 [ChrisL]
action: Tal to create UA test for bad metadata
15:55:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-48 - Create UA test for bad metadata [on Tal Leming - due 2010-11-24].
15:55:59 [cslye]
action: Tal to update UA test plan to include new "fringe" tests.
15:55:59 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-49 - Update UA test plan to include new "fringe" tests. [on Tal Leming - due 2010-11-24].
15:57:12 [cslye]
tal: What if padding is done with something other than null bytes?
15:58:32 [cslye]
action: Tal to update font format test plan to include new "fringe" tests.
15:58:32 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-50 - Update font format test plan to include new "fringe" tests. [on Tal Leming - due 2010-11-24].
15:58:52 [cslye]
tal: Please give me comments and suggestions on test plan.
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16:00:18 [Vlad]
rrsagent, generate minutes
16:00:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Vlad
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16:00:34 [tal]
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16:01:35 [ChrisL]
type this into a browser,text
16:01:44 [Vlad],txt
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disconnecting the lone participant, howcome, in IA_Fonts()10:00AM
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IA_Fonts()10:00AM has ended
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Attendees were +1.206.324.aaaa, Erik, Vlad, ChrisL, tal, +1.510.816.aabb, cslye, +1.425.882.aacc, jdaggett, Sergei, +1.250.247.aadd, +1.250.247.aaee, +47.23.69.aaff, howcome,
16:08:17 [Zakim]
... +1.250.668.aagg, John, jfkthame
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