14:58:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webfonts
14:58:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-webfonts-irc
14:58:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:58:53 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webfonts
14:58:55 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3668
14:58:55 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_Fonts()10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:58:56 <trackbot> Meeting: WebFonts Working Group Teleconference
14:58:56 <trackbot> Date: 17 November 2010
14:59:03 <ChrisL> Chair: Vlad
14:59:07 <Vlad> Vlad has joined #webfonts
14:59:24 <Zakim> IA_Fonts()10:00AM has now started
14:59:31 <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aaaa
14:59:33 <cslye> cslye has joined #webfonts
14:59:48 <Zakim> +Erik
15:00:16 <Zakim> +Vlad
15:00:50 <Zakim> +ChrisL
15:00:59 <ChrisL> zakim, who is here?
15:01:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.206.324.aaaa, Erik, Vlad, ChrisL
15:01:01 <Zakim> On IRC I see cslye, Vlad, Zakim, RRSAgent, sylvaing, ChrisL, erik_, jdaggett, trackbot
15:01:10 <tal> tal has joined #webfonts
15:01:12 <Zakim> +tal
15:01:13 <Zakim> + +1.510.816.aabb
15:01:32 <ChrisL> zakim, aaa is cslye
15:01:32 <Zakim> sorry, ChrisL, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
15:01:59 <cslye> zakim, aabb is cslye
15:01:59 <Zakim> +cslye; got it
15:02:30 <Zakim> + +1.425.882.aacc
15:02:32 <ChrisL> zakim, aaaa is Tal
15:02:32 <Zakim> +Tal; got it
15:02:41 <Zakim> +??P14
15:02:52 <jdaggett> zakim, p14 is jdaggett
15:02:52 <Zakim> sorry, jdaggett, I do not recognize a party named 'p14'
15:03:11 <jdaggett> zakim, ??P14 is jdaggett
15:03:11 <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
15:03:45 <ChrisL> zakim, who is here?
15:03:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tal, Erik, Vlad, ChrisL, cslye, tal, +1.425.882.aacc, jdaggett
15:03:47 <Zakim> On IRC I see tal, cslye, Vlad, Zakim, RRSAgent, sylvaing, ChrisL, erik_, jdaggett, trackbot
15:04:15 <ChrisL> zakim, aacc is Sergei
15:04:15 <Zakim> +Sergei; got it
15:04:31 <sergeym> sergeym has joined #webfonts
15:06:06 <cslye> Vlad: EPUB list conversation took place that WOFF is redundant for EPUB.
15:06:28 <ChrisL> scribenick: cslye
15:07:19 <cslye> Vlad: Font solutions are fragmented; thinks WOFF is best solution.
15:07:37 <cslye> Vlad: Many list members are undecided.
15:08:01 <cslye> What is the list?
15:08:35 <ChrisL> http://openebook.org/
15:08:41 <cslye> Vlad: List is: epub@openebook.org
15:09:31 <cslye> I will talk to the Adobe person about it.
15:10:11 <cslye> jdaggett: EPUB font is embedded, not linked.
15:10:31 <John_Hudson> John_Hudson has joined #webfonts
15:10:44 <ChrisL> We would like woff to be ubiquitous though, and we would like epub to deviate from Web standarfds as little as possible
15:10:52 <cslye> Vlad: If the font data is packaged inside the file, it's embedded, and linking is not embedded.
15:11:09 <ChrisL> its not embedded in the sense of being part of the same document file
15:12:13 <cslye> ChrisL: Saving web pages: Don't want EPUB to deviate too much from that.
15:13:04 <cslye> jdaggett: I don't see where we need to say explicitly that any particular font should be used in EPUB. Can recommend WOFF, though.
15:13:48 <Zakim> + +1.250.247.aadd
15:14:13 <Zakim> - +1.250.247.aadd
15:14:14 <jdaggett> zakim, who is noisy
15:14:14 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is noisy', jdaggett
15:14:38 <jdaggett> zakim, mute 1.250.247.aadd
15:14:39 <Zakim> sorry, jdaggett, I do not know which phone connection belongs to 1.250.247.aadd
15:14:43 <Zakim> + +1.250.247.aaee
15:14:54 <Zakim> - +1.250.247.aaee
15:14:59 <howcome> howcome has joined #webfonts
15:14:59 <Zakim> + +47.23.69.aaff
15:15:30 <John> [Sorry. There seems to besomething wrong with my phone.]
15:15:30 <howcome> zakim, aaff is howcome
15:15:30 <Zakim> +howcome; got it
15:15:53 <cslye> Vlad: EPUB has a "mangled font" algorithm that was optional.
15:16:23 <cslye> Vlad: WOFF is a better solution since it has more support and has metadata.
15:16:42 <cslye> jdaggett: That's a dumb requirement.
15:18:08 <cslye> sergeym: The spec wants to avoid moving a font from one EPUB to aother.
15:18:43 <Zakim> + +1.250.668.aagg
15:18:55 <cslye> Vlad: I'm not concerned about users with proper license.
15:19:11 <cslye> sergeym: Just clarifying what the spec actually says.
15:19:26 <cslye> sergeym: (The EPUB spec.)
15:19:55 <cslye> Vlad: WOFF informs the user.
15:20:03 <sergeym> sergeym has joined #webfonts
15:20:12 <cslye> Vlad: Keep honest people honest.
15:20:28 <cslye> Vlad: Moving on...
15:20:52 <cslye> First agenda item: Review open action items.
15:20:59 <John> zakim, aagg is John
15:20:59 <Zakim> +John; got it
15:21:06 <cslye> Action 29: FAQ.
15:21:06 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 29
15:21:23 <ChrisL> action-29?
15:21:23 <trackbot> ACTION-29 -- John Hudson to review woff faq with chris and vlad -- due 2010-10-06 -- OPEN
15:21:23 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/29
15:21:45 <cslye> action-36?
15:21:46 <trackbot> ACTION-36 -- Chris Lilley to recategorise the general conformance criteria -- due 2010-11-11 -- OPEN
15:21:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/36
15:22:00 <cslye> Can be closed.
15:22:05 <cslye> action-37?
15:22:05 <trackbot> ACTION-37 -- Chris Lilley to get cracking on test suite. -- due 2010-11-11 -- OPEN
15:22:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/37
15:22:10 <ChrisL> close action-36
15:22:11 <trackbot> ACTION-36 Recategorise the general conformance criteria closed
15:22:31 <cslye> close action-37
15:22:31 <trackbot> ACTION-37 Get cracking on test suite. closed
15:22:47 <ChrisL> action-38?
15:22:47 <trackbot> ACTION-38 -- John Daggett to help with font creation for the test suite. -- due 2010-11-11 -- OPEN
15:22:47 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/38
15:23:10 <cslye> We will review Tal's test suite stuff today
15:23:25 <cslye> Vlad: Should we keep it open?
15:23:33 <jdaggett> yeah, closing it sounds fine
15:23:42 <cslye> ChrisL: Close it and make a more specific action.
15:23:49 <cslye> close action-38
15:23:49 <trackbot> ACTION-38 Help with font creation for the test suite. closed
15:24:06 <cslye> action-43?
15:24:06 <trackbot> ACTION-43 -- Jonathan Kew to clarify that @id on uniqueid is required -- due 2010-11-17 -- OPEN
15:24:06 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/43
15:24:13 <cslye> close action-43
15:24:14 <trackbot> ACTION-43 Clarify that @id on uniqueid is required closed
15:24:18 <cslye> action-44?
15:24:18 <trackbot> ACTION-44 -- Jonathan Kew to clarify schema language in text to say one or more text elements -- due 2010-11-17 -- OPEN
15:24:18 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/44
15:24:37 <cslye> close action-44
15:24:37 <trackbot> ACTION-44 Clarify schema language in text to say one or more text elements closed
15:24:43 <cslye> close action-45
15:24:43 <trackbot> ACTION-45 Make item element a required chilkd of extension closed
15:24:58 <cslye> action-46?
15:24:58 <trackbot> ACTION-46 -- Chris Lilley to add the two missing conformance statements and split out the stylesheet -- due 2010-11-17 -- OPEN
15:24:58 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/46
15:25:53 <cslye> ChrisL: They were added. Can be closed.
15:26:00 <cslye> close action-46
15:26:00 <trackbot> ACTION-46 Add the two missing conformance statements and split out the stylesheet closed
15:26:15 <cslye> close action-47
15:26:15 <trackbot> ACTION-47 Edit the media registration to say application/font-woff closed
15:26:46 <cslye> ChrisL: Was done in accordance with Last Call.
15:27:07 <ChrisL> the general ones are here
15:27:08 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/TestPlan-General#Test_Plan_-_General
15:27:53 <cslye> ChrisL: Leave untestable things as lowercase 'must'?
15:28:51 <cslye> ChrisL: Take untestable things out of conformance spec.
15:29:03 <cslye> ChrisL: Just recommend testing them.
15:29:43 <cslye> jdaggett: Just mark what's not testable.
15:29:53 <cslye> ChrisL: I agree, but...
15:30:25 <jfkthame_afk> jfkthame_afk has joined #webfonts
15:31:09 <cslye> ChrisL: Following CSS3 font spec is hard to test.
15:31:33 <cslye> jdaggett: Benefit to leaving CSS3 requirement is useful, though.
15:31:37 <Zakim> +jfkthame
15:32:35 <cslye> Vlad: Better to keep these things in the spec, even if they're difficult/impossible to test.
15:33:25 <cslye> Vlad: Let's review the test plans along with looking at Tal's stuff.
15:33:43 <cslye> Tal: Python script generates valid and invalid WOFF.
15:33:56 <cslye> Tal: Link them to testable assertions.
15:34:42 <cslye> Tal: Should I eliminate tests that aren't tied specifically to testable assertions?
15:34:50 <cslye> ChrisL: NO NO NO!
15:35:12 <cslye> Tal: Tricky to make a font that has only one thing wrong.
15:35:43 <cslye> Tal: I have a dump of test cases I have now.
15:37:02 <ChrisL> ref as in reference
15:37:12 <cslye> jdaggett: Ref test compares two documents; can be automated.
15:38:05 <cslye> jdaggett: Alternate test shows PASS/FAIL, when a reference is not available.
15:38:30 <cslye> jdaggett: Let's have both kinds of tests.
15:38:55 <cslye> Tal: Keep the sfnt as simple as possible; with single character?
15:39:27 <cslye> sergeym: Existing test fonts work fine; we don't need something new.
15:39:39 <tal> http://wofftesttemp.typesupply.com/UA-Tests/useragenttestindex.html
15:41:09 <cslye> Tal: Ref tests use a raw font for comparison.
15:41:35 <cslye> Better to use an installed font, instead of linked?
15:43:01 <cslye> jdaggett: Have an installed fallback font to use as a flag, to indicate that fonts are loading properly.
15:45:08 <cslye> Vlad: Create a font with mis-mapped characters, so that "PASS" = "FAIL"
15:45:16 <jdaggett> http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/xhtml1/font-family-name-003.xht
15:45:20 <ChrisL> Text fotr a 'must load' test is 'FAIL" and the font has P glyph for F etc so it looks like'PASS' when loaded
15:45:24 <jdaggett> http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/xhtml1/font-family-name-ref.xht
15:45:49 <jdaggett> those are examples of a reftest that uses
15:46:00 <jdaggett> the sort of thing we're talking about
15:46:32 <cslye> sergeym: We need to show when fonts don't load at all. Need separate font for that?
15:46:56 <cslye> jdaggett: We have all this already.
15:47:14 <ChrisL> Text for a 'must not load' test is 'PASS" and the font has F glyph for P etc so it looks like 'FAIL' when erroneously loaded
15:49:11 <cslye> tal: Some testable assertions test file format. Should a UA test pass even if file format is invalid?
15:49:45 <cslye> tal: Checksums - validator will fail bad checksums, but UA should pass.
15:50:26 <cslye> tal: Need test case for UA where checksums are bad, but UA will pass it.
15:50:42 <cslye> Vlad: Don't see why we need this test.
15:51:07 <cslye> jdaggett: We don't want UAs to be required to fail it, but they can if they want.
15:52:58 <cslye> Vlad: Do we have tests for UA with bad metadata?
15:53:36 <cslye> tal: I will add some of these edge cases that aren't there.
15:55:00 <ChrisL> action: Tal to create UA test for bad metadata
15:55:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-48 - Create UA test for bad metadata [on Tal Leming - due 2010-11-24].
15:55:59 <cslye> action: Tal to update UA test plan to include new "fringe" tests.
15:55:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-49 - Update UA test plan to include new "fringe" tests. [on Tal Leming - due 2010-11-24].
15:57:12 <cslye> tal: What if padding is done with something other than null bytes?
15:58:32 <cslye> action: Tal to update font format test plan to include new "fringe" tests.
15:58:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-50 - Update font format test plan to include new "fringe" tests. [on Tal Leming - due 2010-11-24].
15:58:52 <cslye> tal: Please give me comments and suggestions on test plan.
15:59:51 <Zakim> -John
16:00:01 <Zakim> -jdaggett
16:00:05 <Zakim> -Erik
16:00:07 <Zakim> -tal
16:00:13 <Zakim> -Sergei
16:00:18 <Vlad> rrsagent, generate minutes
16:00:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-webfonts-minutes.html Vlad
16:00:18 <Zakim> -jfkthame
16:00:34 <tal> tal has left #webfonts
16:01:35 <ChrisL> type this into a browser http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-webfonts-minutes.html,text
16:01:44 <Vlad> http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-webfonts-minutes.html,txt
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16:01:47 <Zakim> -Tal
16:02:29 <Zakim> -cslye
16:02:31 <Zakim> -Vlad
16:03:08 <Zakim> -ChrisL
16:08:09 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, howcome, in IA_Fonts()10:00AM
16:08:10 <Zakim> IA_Fonts()10:00AM has ended
16:08:14 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.206.324.aaaa, Erik, Vlad, ChrisL, tal, +1.510.816.aabb, cslye, +1.425.882.aacc, jdaggett, Sergei, +1.250.247.aadd, +1.250.247.aaee, +47.23.69.aaff, howcome,
16:08:17 <Zakim> ... +1.250.668.aagg, John, jfkthame
16:08:21 <cslye> cslye has left #webfonts
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