20:58:11 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y 20:58:11 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-html-a11y-irc 20:58:17 zakim, this will be 26631 20:58:17 ok, janina; I see Team_(media1)21:00Z scheduled to start in 2 minutes 20:58:25 zakim, call janina 20:58:25 ok, janina; the call is being made 20:58:26 Team_(media1)21:00Z has now started 20:58:27 +Janina 20:58:45 zakim, who's here? 20:58:45 On the phone I see Janina 20:58:46 On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, JF, silvia, gfreed, oedipus_away, MichaelC, sideshow, trackbot 20:59:14 the call is restricted at this time? 20:59:17 Hi, Everyone: REMINDER Zakim Code today is 26631# 20:59:26 aha 20:59:30 John, use today';s zakim code 20:59:37 +John_Foliot 21:00:01 + +1.617.365.aaaa 21:00:06 Sean has joined #html-a11y 21:00:56 zakim, +1.617.365.aaaa is Geoff_Freed 21:00:56 +Geoff_Freed; got it 21:02:20 +silvia 21:03:39 scribe: janina 21:03:46 zakim, mute me 21:03:46 silvia should now be muted 21:04:07 Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon 21:04:07 Chair: John_Foliot 21:04:07 agenda: this 21:04:07 agenda+ Identify Scribe 21:04:07 agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open 21:04:08 agenda+ Candidate Formats Review: WebSRT; TTML 21:04:10 agenda+ Other Business? 21:04:12 agenda+ next meeting; Should we shift our start time? 21:04:14 agenda+ be done 21:04:26 zakim, next item 21:04:26 agendum 1. "Identify Scribe" taken up [from janina] 21:04:51 If she can last, Janina will attempt to do the honors today ... 21:05:02 zakim, next item 21:05:02 agendum 1 was just opened, janina 21:05:09 zakim, close item 1 21:05:09 agendum 1, Identify Scribe, closed 21:05:10 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 21:05:11 2. Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open [from janina] 21:05:19 zakim, next item 21:05:19 agendum 2. "Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open" taken up [from janina] 21:05:23 conference code? 21:06:59 zakim, code? 21:06:59 the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), silvia 21:07:36 the code is not letting me in. says restricted at this time 21:07:56 Sean, you need to use 26631# 21:08:17 It's our special zakim code for today only -- 26631# 21:08:27 JF has joined #html-a11y 21:08:43 +Sean_Hayes 21:09:13 zakim, whos here 21:09:13 I don't understand 'whos here', JF 21:09:21 zakim who is here 21:09:31 zakim, who's here? 21:09:31 On the phone I see Janina, John_Foliot, Geoff_Freed, silvia (muted), Sean_Hayes 21:09:34 On IRC I see JF, Sean, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, silvia, gfreed, oedipus_away, MichaelC, sideshow, trackbot 21:12:17 agenda? 21:13:44 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/67 21:13:52 zakim, unmute me 21:13:52 silvia should no longer be muted 21:14:17 re action 67 on to file bugs we will close action 67 21:14:28 close action-67 21:14:29 ACTION-67 And Silvia (and perhaps Eric) to file bugs to tweak language in Editors draft closed 21:14:35 re action 68 on jf -- 21:14:36 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/68 21:14:48 leave open 21:15:08 re action 69 on silvia - 21:15:15 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/69 21:15:27 done 21:15:36 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/TextFormat_Mapping_to_Requirements 21:15:46 close action-69 21:15:46 ACTION-69 Work up checklist table for WebSRT closed 21:15:49 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/76 21:16:30 close action-76 21:16:31 ACTION-76 Replace the technology column in our matrix with Frank's categorizations closed 21:16:48 leave action-76 open for now 21:16:59 OK, we'll close it! 21:17:23 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/88 21:19:14 Biggest issue is how to get data from client to server 21:19:25 Silvia is part of the Wg 21:19:46 This action was cloned from PF which was interested in general. 21:20:01 PF cloned it because it seemed particularly appropriate to Media in HTML 21:20:18 We'll leave it open for now. 21:20:22 zakim, next ietm 21:20:22 I don't understand 'next ietm', janina 21:20:28 zakim, next item 21:20:28 agendum 3. "Candidate Formats Review: WebSRT; TTML" taken up [from janina] 21:21:58 http://sn1-pptbroadcast.officeapps.live.com/PowerPointBroadcast.aspx?pptbid=c399ec9a-0ac9-40f5-a4b0-ee98aa0460d7 21:22:24 This is Sean's web slide presentation ... 21:27:50 Designed to support multiple formats, smil compatible 21:28:04 Can construct own profile in xml 21:28:29 Supports custom timing 21:28:47 Requires a default lang, but inline lang also supported 21:29:19 Can define custom profile, or use one of the provided standard profiles 21:29:37 Hierarchy: div, p, span ... 21:30:00 Netflicks captioning in DFXP 21:32:14 It's one level -- cannot div inside a div 21:32:59 zakim, mute me 21:32:59 silvia should now be muted 21:34:45 Style defining authoring intent 21:35:33 Allows grouping of inline styles, so that locating captions doesn't become overly verbose 21:35:57 If wanted css, would apply over that 21:36:42 CSS styling would work--it's just external to TTML itself 21:36:46 zakim, unmute me 21:36:46 silvia should no longer be muted 21:38:19 User styling overide would use an external style sheet 21:38:35 zakim, mute me 21:38:35 silvia should now be muted 21:38:39 JF: Could we create a profile that disallowed internal ttml styling? 21:38:45 Sean: Yes, will address shortly 21:39:30 Sean has joined #html-a11y 21:40:35 -Janina 21:40:43 zakim, drop janina 21:40:43 sorry, janina, I do not see a party named 'janina' 21:40:48 zakim, call janina 21:40:48 ok, janina; the call is being made 21:40:49 +Janina 21:41:48 q+ 21:42:00 zakim, unmute me 21:42:00 silvia should no longer be muted 21:42:06 Style can reference a previous style block 21:42:21 -Janina 21:42:45 zakim drop me 21:42:51 zakim, call janina 21:42:51 ok, janina; the call is being made 21:42:52 +Janina 21:43:05 zakim, drop janina 21:43:05 Janina is being disconnected 21:43:07 -Janina 21:43:13 zakim, call janina 21:43:13 ok, janina; the call is being made 21:43:14 +Janina 21:43:55 Would a browser that implements ttml need to implement ttml styling, or at least a mapping to css 21:44:22 Most maps to css2, some only to css3 21:44:35 Silvia: So mapping is required? 21:44:43 Sean: Yes, will discuss shortly 21:44:49 zakim, mute me 21:44:49 silvia should now be muted 21:45:03 JF wonders about browser extensions (common in emergent CSS3) 21:45:19 TTML pub date is tomorrow -- Thursday, 18 November 21:45:30 zakim, make log public 21:45:30 I don't understand 'make log public', janina 21:45:40 zakim, make minutes public 21:45:40 I don't understand 'make minutes public', janina 21:45:45 zakim, make minutes 21:45:45 I don't understand 'make minutes', janina 21:45:54 rrsagent, make log public 21:46:00 rrsagent, make minutes 21:46:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-html-a11y-minutes.html janina 21:46:31 BBC is using for English and Welsh captions 21:47:11 Several iptv players, some ed sites, and free conversion tools supporting ttml 21:47:50 q+ 21:48:21 zakim, unmute me 21:48:21 silvia should no longer be muted 21:48:21 Geoff: NCAM has player -- Adobe flash uses ttml 21:49:04 Silvia: How much content uses more than just basic ml? 21:49:26 zakim, mute me 21:49:26 silvia should now be muted 21:49:57 Sean: several authoring tools that are quite complete 21:50:14 Sean: From what appears on line, more than the basics 21:50:41 jf: the jw player also supports ttml profile 21:50:45 zakim, unmute me 21:50:45 silvia should no longer be muted 21:51:02 Silvia: which? 21:51:07 jf: same as adobe? 21:51:15 Silvia: which does adobe support? 21:51:26 jf: xml like 21:51:33 basic profile 21:51:41 zakim, mute me 21:51:41 silvia should now be muted 21:53:08 Sean: Next slide, Moby Dick slide, added DC metadata, and showing structured nav points 21:53:33 Sean: Shows a straight forward extension of ttml, not implemented anywhere yet 21:57:01 Sean: Pretty straight forward mapping for IE9 and Firefox, a bit more problematic for Safari 21:57:03 +Judy 21:57:22 zakim, unmute me 21:57:22 silvia should no longer be muted 21:57:54 Sean: http://www.mirovideoconverter.com/ <- ogg encoder 21:59:05 zakim, mute me 21:59:05 silvia should now be muted 21:59:53 jf: could one create a block for caption text that enlarged text? 22:00:24 zakim, unmute me 22:00:24 silvia should no longer be muted 22:00:27 Sean: Yes, mapping at each time segment 22:00:42 kenny_j has joined #html-a11y 22:01:04 Kenny, we're at zakim code 26631 today only 22:02:32 thanks janina. will join in a sec 22:03:01 http://www.3playmedia.com/ 22:03:09 zakim, mute me 22:03:09 silvia should now be muted 22:03:11 Discussion on locating caption text -- over video or alongside? 22:03:17 + +039038aabb 22:03:24 Sean: My ttml profile supports anywhere 22:03:45 zakim, who is here? 22:03:45 On the phone I see Janina, John_Foliot, Geoff_Freed, silvia (muted), Sean_Hayes, Judy, +039038aabb 22:03:47 On IRC I see kenny_j, Sean, JF, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, silvia, gfreed, oedipus_away, MichaelC, sideshow, trackbot 22:06:14 zakim, +039038aabb is Kenny_Johar 22:06:14 +Kenny_Johar; got it 22:06:34 zakim, unmute me 22:06:34 silvia should no longer be muted 22:07:07 Geoff: There are other applications of TTML in the works, and I believe it's use is much wider than Sean showed. 22:07:31 Geoff: Uptick because it's a W3C recommendation (tomorrow) 22:07:52 Silvia now presenting on WebSRT 22:07:53 http://blog.gingertech.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/WebSRT/#slide1 22:08:35 -Sean_Hayes 22:08:36 -Judy 22:09:46 can someone remind me of the code 22:10:04 zakim, code? 22:10:04 the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), silvia 22:10:07 26631 22:10:50 +Sean_Hayes 22:12:40 SRT was attractive to me because it's so trivial to parse. 22:13:07 q+ 22:13:24 Mozilla's current official position is that ttml not compatible with how Mozilla wants to handle captions 22:14:14 I want to leave that aside, though, and look at this from our requirements perspective 22:17:40 WebSRT has been developed specifically for html5, expanding on SRT 22:18:08 Intent is that people can post their SRT files on the web, and they'll just work ... 22:19:20 plh has joined #html-a11y 22:19:46 +Plh 22:20:15 Sean has joined #html-a11y 22:20:21 Silvia's explaining ml in slide 3 22:20:42 plh: http://blog.gingertech.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/WebSRT/#slide3 22:21:59 Looking at slide 4 -- WebSRT for captions, texted video descriptions, subtitles, and kareoke 22:22:07 rrsagent, where am I? 22:22:07 See http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-html-a11y-irc#T22-22-07 22:22:46 PLH: We're on zakim 26631, if you want to join 22:23:32 Minimal ml available for text, by intent 22:24:13 janina, I'm on the bridge 22:24:30 Great, PLH. 22:26:16 Slide 6 -- Showing how it comes together 22:26:32 Chapters there for navigation, using identifier plus start/end time 22:27:57 jf: asking about hierarchical navigation? 22:28:57 Silvia: WebSRT is still flexible, we can still fix shortcomings, don't know how open Ian is to that, though 22:29:29 Silvia: Hierarchical nav now only possible if we use multiple files--other workarounds 22:31:27 Geoff: Assuming these slides show what Ian has defined for WebSRT as of now, correct? 22:31:31 Silvia: Yes. 22:32:33 q+ 22:32:47 q- 22:34:09 ack s 22:34:12 ack j 22:34:29 +Judy 22:36:03 Silvia: Supports a voice ml, so can identify speaker, or a segment of music, etc 22:37:10 Silvia: All chars are utf8, unlike previous SRT wich code use any encoding 22:39:32 Silvia: Looking at use cases, video description, 22:39:39 Silvia: word by word timing ... 22:40:02 Judy has joined #html-a11y 22:40:17 Link for Judy: http://blog.gingertech.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/WebSRT/#slide10 22:40:19 Silvia: metadata example -- html parsable 22:40:26 http://blog.gingertech.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/WebSRT/#slide10 22:41:18 Silvia: Jason ml would also be supported 22:42:05 Silvia: Jason is for archiving databases, appreciated by large sites with many many files 22:43:57 Silvia: Slide 12 shows ml that's currently allowed by WebSRT 22:45:48 Silvia: Slide 13 showing Japanese 22:47:13 Silvia: Showing positioning at right or left, as Asian languages are vertica 22:47:36 Silvia: Currently only renders text on top of video 22:47:49 Sean: Why not use CSS? 22:47:57 Silvia: Don't know. Also have this concern. 22:48:20 Silvia: I've heard Ian considered CSS too complex for this application 22:49:55 Silvia: Slide 14 showing only available markers -- vert, horizontal, etc 22:51:34 Silvia: Slide 15 -- If captioning audio, needs to be wrapped in video element, as video renders to screen, and audio does not 22:52:07 PLH, Yes, he said he would be doing that 22:54:39 Silvia: Next slides showing more complex rendering via css 22:56:15 Silvia: Summary; Lots of potential with metadata; things missing; very capable format, though 22:56:25 Silvia: Personal opinion is either works for me 22:56:52 Silvia: Mozilla and others strong aversion to xml parsing 22:57:08 Silvia: So prefer WebSRT for that, and other reasons 22:57:17 q+ 22:58:12 Geoff: Interested in the arguments 22:58:39 Silvia: Would tend to suggest all of css could be used 22:59:11 Silvia: sibling ml wouldn't work in live captioning, or in file where interleaved with video stream 22:59:17 need to drop off now. Got to run to another meeting. Bye all. 22:59:35 -Kenny_Johar 23:00:23 Sean: So can't break into the middle of a file? 23:00:37 Silvia: Yes, but must first pass headers 23:01:45 Judy: Wonders whether subsetting ttml would provide what we need but avoid existing objections 23:02:08 Silvia: Objections are pretty generally against any xml format 23:02:41 Geoff: General comment -- Concerned that browser mfgs might be setting a11y policy in a way that isn't necessarily helpful to pwds 23:03:02 q+ 23:03:12 +1 to judy's comments 23:03:28 Judy: The bodies that set policy are empowered by our analysis -- starting from user requirements and continuing to what the formats do, and don't support 23:04:17 my slides are at ftp://ftp.cwmwenallt.com/ username cwmdownload password Accessibility1 23:05:03 q+ 23:05:12 PHL: There's the tech discussion and the feature discussion -- Browsers may have prefs on tech direction, but features are another matter 23:05:34 Judy: budy if we were to find some features not addressable in websrt, that would be another matter 23:05:38 phl: agrees 23:05:50 s/budy/but/ 23:07:11 Judy: Didn't our TTML discussion reveal that we could avoid some of the less comfortable technologies that browser devs wanted to avoid? 23:07:42 PHL: I look at how do we move tech to meet our identified feature requirements 23:08:25 Judy: So, still wondering how far a subsetting could go? 23:08:50 Silvia: Don't think an xml format will be acceptable 23:09:43 Silvia: We can and should point out shortcomings and say that the format is unacceptable if these shortcomings aren't fixed 23:09:58 Sean: But, what's the point if we have a format that already delivers what's needed? 23:10:49 Sean: If the devs have presented a fete accompli, what's the point? 23:11:08 PLH: Both formats could meet? 23:11:17 q+ 23:11:21 Sean: Yes, either format could meet 23:11:57 q+ 23:12:37 PHL: So, if we hand off to html, they'll probably go websrt 23:12:45 Sean: and we won't implement until it's a w3c req 23:14:14 Judy: Have we articulated interoperability concerns sufficiently? 23:14:36 q? 23:14:39 q- 23:14:42 ack j 23:14:43 q- 23:15:15 q+ 23:15:18 jf: It's a problem if we say either format can do it, 23:15:36 jf: we really should focus on a definitive format 23:15:57 jf: I may be wrong, but believe we need a defined, preferred format 23:16:03 q+ 23:16:14 q+ 23:16:21 Sean: But we don't have all the dimensions of that 23:16:53 Silvia: This TF shouldn't be making the decision on what is baseline and what goes into the spec 23:17:25 q+ 23:17:26 Silvia: We can say format x is preferable because it supports these features 23:17:35 Silvia: Or format y has these shortcomings 23:18:08 q+ to say has my thought back 23:18:37 Silvia: I believe it will be a useful exercise for this group to do that analyis 23:19:15 ack sil 23:19:19 ack Judy 23:19:19 Judy, you wanted to say has my thought back 23:19:32 Judy: If there were one format that objectively supported a11y better, it would be incumbant on this group to make that recommendation 23:20:27 judy: Don't see that the case is yet strongly stated 23:20:48 PHL: So, what is the timeline? 23:21:55 PHL: It seems there are currently two different discussions, one in HTML WG and one in this TF 23:22:22 judy_ has joined #html-a11y 23:22:36 zakim, mute me 23:22:36 silvia should now be muted 23:22:36 q+ 23:22:42 jf: That's what we've started doing here 23:22:52 q- 23:22:56 ack g 23:23:44 Geoff: My comment also on the timeline -- Now that we know TTML is a rec, and is broadly used, perhaps people will start using it while we take our time, here and in the html wg, to debate 23:24:28 q? 23:24:34 ack j 23:24:54 Judy: This is why we have the mega long call today 23:25:26 PHL: Not meaning to criticize -- but we may miss opportunity if we don't move fast 23:25:44 q+ 23:25:50 ack ju 23:27:36 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/TextFormat_Mapping_to_Requirements 23:28:50 Now going through the format reqs looking for what ttml and srt currently support 23:28:58 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Checklist 23:29:04 zakim, unmute me 23:29:04 silvia should no longer be muted 23:31:02 zakim, mute me 23:31:02 silvia should now be muted 23:31:16 zakim, unmute me 23:31:16 silvia should no longer be muted 23:32:03 dv-14 ttml=yes websrt=no 23:32:38 Silvia: We may rely on media nnotations for copyright -- dv-=14 23:34:03 cn-2 ttml=yes websrt=no--not hierarchical 23:34:30 Silvia: Suggest doing entire cn section 23:36:11 Discussion that we should see examples of how it's done in ttml; suggesting maybe both need work 23:38:25 JS: Already solved in DAISY which is now sync'd to epub (IDPF) 23:38:46 Sean: Nested in ttml 23:39:23 Sean: Am intending an example in ttml 23:39:39 http://www.cwmwenallt.com/ttml/ttmldemo.htm 23:40:05 jf: how do we get an websrt example? 23:40:40 Silvia: I will do for WebSRT 23:41:22 Only tested in IE9 and Firefox 23:41:55 js: We only need two implementations right? 23:42:15 Sean, does your page work for you right now? 23:42:56 it seems the server is borken. I don't even get html source code out of your link 23:43:12 jf: Two weeks? We'll not meet next week due to U.S. Thanksgiving holliday 23:43:26 Silvia: Three probably more realistic, but will try for two 23:43:37 Sean: Yes, have other priorities, but this one is also very important 23:44:48 zakim, mute me 23:44:48 silvia should now be muted 23:46:49 cn-10 multiple simoultaneous text tracks -- ttml=yes websrt=? 23:47:08 websrt=yes through multiple tracks 23:47:11 cc-2 both ok 23:48:56 cc-4 says char encoding, do we have lang attrib elsewhere? 23:49:18 zakim, unmute me 23:49:18 silvia should no longer be muted 23:50:07 cc -- where rendered? 23:50:15 websrt only in the viewport 23:51:17 A current shortcoming 23:52:46 ttml=yes 23:52:51 cc-5 that is 23:53:21 cc-6 both ok 23:53:31 cc-7 both ok 23:54:01 zakim, unmute me 23:54:01 silvia was not muted, silvia 23:57:31 cc-13 ttml=yes; websrt=needs info 23:59:11 Now believe both ok 00:00:05 cc-14 ttml=yes; websrt=css?? 00:02:26 Silvia to clarify with example 00:04:48 cc-16/17 ttml=yes; websrt=no 00:04:55 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y 00:04:56 cc-15 tml=yes; websrt=yes 00:06:19 cc-18 ttml=yes, via namespace, -- frowned on 00:06:32 websrt=yes 00:07:52 q+ 00:15:30 cc-27 more difficult in xml; but is being done 00:15:57 Silvia: has been raised as an issue 00:17:33 ecc-1 more complex in websrt 00:17:57 jf: important in educational settings, specifically dublin core 00:18:15 rrsagent, make minutes 00:18:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/18-html-a11y-minutes.html janina 00:19:22 -Janina 00:19:27