15:48:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #a11y-bugs
15:48:09 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/16-a11y-bugs-irc
15:48:17 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #a11y-bugs
15:48:28 <kliehm> rrsagent, this will be a11y
15:48:28 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'this will be a11y', kliehm.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:49:51 <kliehm> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Bug-Triage
15:49:53 <kliehm> Chair: Martin_Kliehm
15:49:54 <kliehm> Regrets: Laura_Carlson, Joshue_O_Connor
15:49:56 <kliehm> agenda+ Accessible fallback mechanisms for embedded content
15:49:57 <kliehm> agenda+ Assign homework for next week
15:50:51 <kliehm> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0203.html
15:51:38 <kliehm> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:51:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/16-a11y-bugs-minutes.html kliehm
15:51:56 <kliehm> rrsagent, make logs world-viewable
15:52:06 <kliehm> rrsagent, make logs world
15:52:40 <kliehm> rrsagent, set logs world
15:53:22 <Marco_Ranon> Marco_Ranon has joined #a11y-bugs
15:54:23 <Marco_Ranon> Hi Martin. Sure. i'm already online. can you see me. some people can't even if i'm available.
15:54:48 <kliehm> s/Hi Martin. Sure. i'm already online. can you see me. some people can't even if i'm available.//
15:57:18 <kliehm> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:57:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/16-a11y-bugs-minutes.html kliehm
15:58:38 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML_TF)11:00AM has now started
15:58:45 <Zakim> +kliehm
16:00:44 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #a11y-bugs
16:01:17 <kliehm> zakim, move to next agendum
16:01:17 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Accessible fallback mechanisms for embedded content" taken up [from kliehm]
16:01:33 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper
16:10:52 <MichaelC> Question of how to proceed
16:11:12 <MichaelC> think we should send analysis of issues and get discussion
16:11:21 <MichaelC> think we should file bugs ourselves when some form of consensus is clear
16:11:37 <MichaelC> I found some high-level issues in my review
16:12:00 <MichaelC> there are 3 types of fallbacks: 1) non-support of the HTML element; 2) non-support of the loaded content technology; 3) accessibility
16:12:37 <MichaelC> these are confounded and in practice if the browser supports the content technology it doesn't make the accessibility fallback available
16:13:19 <MichaelC> use of attribute for fallback (e.g., @alt) means it can't be internationalized, contain rich content
16:14:12 <Marco_Ranon> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/more-accessible-html5-video-player/
16:14:16 <kliehm> present+ Marco_Ranon
16:14:19 <MichaelC> <img> in HTML 4 had no ability to mark "this element needs no fallback", leading to heuristic uses of @alt which have interoperability problems but are deeply philosophically entrenched
16:14:55 <MichaelC> @title and @name have been used for accessibility fallbacks, but they have unspecified behavior in this scenario
16:16:06 <MichaelC> q+ to talk about mixed fallback and other content
16:17:13 <kliehm> ack michael
16:17:13 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to talk about mixed fallback and other content
16:18:35 <MichaelC> I am also concerned that content models mix fallback elements with <param>, <track>, etc. that are relevant to the parent element
16:19:08 <MichaelC> prefer an explicit element, e.g., <fallback>, to contain the fallback content
16:22:28 <kliehm> Images and MathML have @alt and @alttext on the container element providing some kind of title or summary. Elements such as video, audio, SVG, source, and map has some kind of @alt on a child element, but nothing that serves as a title or summary.
16:23:41 <MichaelC> there is need to "label" elements e.g., <iframe> so user can decide whether to go into it
16:24:22 <MichaelC> the <video/@poster> plays a similar function, so perhaps there is a need for a "labelling alt" for that image, in addition to more complete fallback for the video itself
16:25:47 <kliehm> MR: The title has been used in the past on iframe and object for an accessible fallback.
16:26:08 <MichaelC> @title is used but narrows purpose of a general element
16:26:33 <MichaelC> Use cases: short text alternative, long text alternative, label, summary
16:27:19 <MichaelC> full accessible fallback
16:31:38 <MichaelC> advisory / tooltip
16:32:07 <MichaelC> MK: what about when embedded elements are nested in each other?
16:34:45 <MichaelC> could be either each element handles its own, or the outermost element takes care of it and the nested ones explicitly don't require
16:39:52 <MichaelC> action: Michael to complete use cases table and email to bug triage sub-team
16:54:39 <MichaelC> zakim, next item
16:54:39 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Assign homework for next week" taken up [from kliehm]
16:55:37 <kliehm> Marco to address bugs 10455, 10660, 10967
16:56:16 <kliehm> s/10455,//
16:56:46 <kliehm> Michael to address bugs 11199, 11207, 11238
16:57:08 <kliehm> Joshue to address 11239, 11240, 11241
16:57:19 <kliehm> Martin to address 11242, 11279
17:01:47 <kliehm> ACTION: Martin will browse through bugs tagged with a11yTF and ping people or escalate them to the TF.
17:02:36 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
17:02:38 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML_TF)11:00AM has ended
17:02:39 <Zakim> Attendees were kliehm, Michael_Cooper
17:02:53 <kliehm> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:02:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/16-a11y-bugs-minutes.html kliehm
17:03:18 <kliehm> present+ Martin_Kliehm
17:03:26 <kliehm> present- kliehm
17:03:28 <kliehm> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:03:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/16-a11y-bugs-minutes.html kliehm
17:04:21 <kliehm> scribe: MichaelC
17:04:39 <kliehm> ScribeNick: Michael_Cooper
17:04:44 <kliehm> scribe: kliehm
17:04:54 <kliehm> ScribeNick: Martin Kliehm
17:04:58 <kliehm> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:04:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/16-a11y-bugs-minutes.html kliehm
17:09:20 <Zakim> Zakim has left #a11y-bugs
17:09:31 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/16-a11y-bugs-actions.rdf :
17:09:31 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael to complete use cases table and email to bug triage sub-team [1]
17:09:31 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/16-a11y-bugs-irc#T16-39-52
17:09:31 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Martin will browse through bugs tagged with a11yTF and ping people or escalate them to the TF. [2]
17:09:31 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/16-a11y-bugs-irc#T17-01-47