IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-11-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:59:24 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
19:59:24 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/15-html-a11y-irc
19:59:25 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
19:59:26 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #html-a11y
19:59:27 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
19:59:27 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)3:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
19:59:28 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
19:59:29 [trackbot]
Date: 15 November 2010
20:00:33 [oedipus]
rich, when you have the time: https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2010-November/001235.html IA2_ROLE_NOTE aria role note and HTML5 aside
20:00:58 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(A11Y)3:00PM has now started
20:01:05 [Zakim]
+Gregory_Rosmaita
20:01:17 [Zakim]
+Rich
20:01:33 [oedipus]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0179.html
20:01:36 [oedipus]
chair: Rich
20:01:44 [oedipus]
scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
20:01:48 [oedipus]
scribenick: oedipus
20:03:24 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Canvas
20:03:37 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Canvas/Meetings
20:03:43 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Canvas/Meetings#Minutes_from_Canvas_Accessibility_Sub-Group_Meetings
20:03:53 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Canvas/Meetings/Minutes
20:05:26 [Zakim]
+ +1.949.637.aaaa
20:07:32 [oedipus]
RS: don't know how much can cover -- only 3 of us on call
20:07:44 [oedipus]
RS: getting up to speed
20:07:55 [oedipus]
RS: at last TPAC there were a couple of things that got resolved
20:08:33 [oedipus]
RS: address RTE but not by first last call -- have to go in and address issues in HTML5 spec about what can be renderred inside of canvas -- IE team reported that IFrame inside CANVAS subtree needs to be explored
20:08:51 [oedipus]
RS: need API modifications to contenteditable areas -- ranges for grammar and spelling errors
20:09:02 [oedipus]
HTML WG TPAC 2010 F2F Canvas A11y Discussion: http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html#item15
20:09:27 [oedipus]
RS: selection and caret info consistently exposed across browsers -- compare API notes to ensure that all available and specced out -- plus need implementations
20:09:34 [oedipus]
HTML Canvas 2D proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/att-0179/HTML_Canvas_2D_Context.html
20:10:03 [oedipus]
RS: need to work some prototypes to sync what is in contenteditable within CANVAS -- textfield synchronization in RTE
20:10:08 [oedipus]
RTE = Rich Text Editor
20:10:10 [oedipus]
HTML Canvas 2D proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/att-0179/HTML_Canvas_2D_Context.html
20:10:36 [oedipus]
RS: modification based on feedback from James Grahame about rocus ring
20:11:10 [oedipus]
RS: hixie tried to conflate focus ring and caret tracking -- on some APIs they are entirely unrelated API calls -- couldn't put X Y coordinates into focus ring
20:11:36 [oedipus]
RS: width and height attributes for focus ring -- different types for diff paths (square, oval, elliptical, etc.)
20:12:29 [oedipus]
RS: subtree has element with focus -- used to have parameter "CanDrawElemen t" requests OS to do default focus ring call -- determines success or failure -- if OS can't do, author has to draw it so no info on where focus is
20:13:20 [oedipus]
RS: modified call to take an element and by default draw FocusRing for that element -- A11y API will have all info on it ; use drawing tab used before FocusRing call made -- if need high contrast, could draw high contrast ring and use that for conveying position to AT
20:13:24 [oedipus]
RS: drawing path
20:13:28 [oedipus]
CP: sounds possible
20:13:39 [oedipus]
CP: happy to just have shadow DOM in first place
20:14:00 [oedipus]
CP: focusRing have to be run against every single element in sub-tree?
20:14:16 [oedipus]
CP: haven't used API yet, but simplifying to 1 call is right move
20:14:24 [oedipus]
CP: how will caret work is right next step
20:14:39 [oedipus]
RS: like to have CP's feedback on draft attached to agenda
20:15:10 [oedipus]
RS: not like a request -- by default, draw what OS specifies (if high contrast, then browser needs to follow OS convention and respect high contrast settings
20:16:06 [oedipus]
RS: doesn't draw caret -- have refresh rates to consider -- can cause issues -- we need to be able to get caret position out of TEXTAREA
20:16:26 [oedipus]
RS: kinda like an a11y API call -- just like focusRing -- element with focus that has this caret position
20:16:57 [oedipus]
RS: on windows there is SetCaretPosition on windows -- screen mag could follow -- have to compensate for "moving windows", so need update on browser side
20:17:06 [frankolivier]
frankolivier has joined #html-a11y
20:17:37 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
20:17:46 [oedipus]
RS: when selecting text in IE, and caret browsing "on" -- selecting text with arrow keys, caret moves with where you are selecting -- rectangle of where selectionPoint is can be exposed
20:17:48 [frankolivier]
zakim, Microsoft is frankolivier
20:17:48 [Zakim]
+frankolivier; got it
20:17:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/15-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
20:18:30 [oedipus]
CP: caret browsing mode shows locked cursor -- exactly how selection would work -- has copy+paste and caret position have something all can reference -- can we produce that via the API?
20:18:51 [oedipus]
CP: 2 things to bring to table: 1) don't understand use case of IFRAME in CANVAS
20:20:04 [oedipus]
CP: nothing on bug list about zooming -- found zooming to be an issue -- IE only ones who know what current zoom level is -- canvas mapped to device units, if start zooming in will get blurry canvas -- need to redraw, but how to do without knowing dimensions need to be redrawn -- complicated issue -- hacking way through it on some browsers -- related to Windows API but still an issue for...
20:20:06 [oedipus]
...canvas a11y
20:20:15 [oedipus]
RS: by zoom you mean control/command plus/minus?
20:20:17 [oedipus]
CP: yes
20:20:24 [oedipus]
RS: browser has info...
20:21:06 [oedipus]
CP: in Chrome can grab onRate type event -- in chrome is onResize -- doesn't happen in FF -- no standards event for zoom -- need to know relative ratio for zoom so can redraw clean and crisp canvas
20:21:53 [frankolivier]
q+
20:21:54 [oedipus]
CP: found this to be a11y problem, because i use a computer monitor for TV screen -- if don't have zooming, have to use CSS zoom which blurs; if know pixel relative measurement, can get clean zoom
20:22:12 [oedipus]
CP: MS done well; Chrome needs patch, FF in "logical pixels"
20:22:27 [frankolivier]
, a media query based approach was introduced on the webkit blog some time ago: http://webkit.org/blog/55/high-dpi-web-sites/ but afaik is not actually implemented anywhere.
20:22:41 [oedipus]
CP: need to know zoom onLoad
20:22:44 [oedipus]
RS: return what?
20:22:51 [oedipus]
RS: integer?
20:23:23 [oedipus]
CP: need to talk about with MS -- as long as zoom changed, can get that info -- zoom event gets window.screen to get relative pixel measurement
20:23:31 [oedipus]
RS: change in zooming level should be accurate
20:23:45 [oedipus]
CP: just peeking into window.screen to get pixel coordinates
20:23:50 [oedipus]
RS: have MS app?
20:24:01 [frankolivier]
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms533721(VS.85).aspx - devicexdpi
20:24:10 [oedipus]
CP: window.screen.logical.devicexdpi
20:24:25 [richardschwerdtfe]
q?
20:24:39 [oedipus]
RS: will return x and y position
20:25:08 [oedipus]
CP: returns DPI -- can derive x and y -- want consistency across browsers so that zooming works as well as native zoom in UAs
20:25:16 [oedipus]
CP: why IFRAME inside a CANVAS?
20:25:37 [oedipus]
CP: if inside CANVAS could be there if canvas not supported and want to fallback to IFRAME in old browser
20:25:43 [oedipus]
RS: need to log defect on zooming
20:25:50 [oedipus]
RS: i will log bug for that
20:25:54 [oedipus]
ack frank
20:26:10 [oedipus]
FO: webkit blog mentinos approach to solving same problem -
20:26:35 [oedipus]
FO: proposal on 26 April 2006 on returning zoom level via media queries -- don't think implemented anywhere
20:27:33 [oedipus]
CP: using webkit device pixels ratio as windows variable -- will see only on iPhone probably -- extended to targetdensityapi done by google for android -- 2 media queries, may need one more -- what is there isn't sufficient -- works with CSS and window.global
20:27:43 [oedipus]
FO: the google approach?
20:28:04 [oedipus]
CP: no -- that was guessing -- on android have targetdensity API close to zoom level but more semantic infor
20:28:15 [oedipus]
CP: will send link to list
20:28:34 [oedipus]
RS: 1 thing CP asked for is zoom event -- is providing another missing event an issue for IE?
20:28:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/15-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
20:29:07 [oedipus]
RS: instead of pulling API values, have a zoom event -- use control/command plus/minus app detect that to make changes to canvas drawing
20:30:04 [oedipus]
CP: zoom event clarification: as long as window.screen is included and fires, can use it -- reason for zoom event is more semantics -- need standardized behaviour for resize function
20:30:13 [oedipus]
RS: chrome have resize or zoom
20:30:36 [oedipus]
CP: chrome triggers reszie on zoom -- just implemented something new -- using window.screen on windows, can get info perfectly
20:30:49 [oedipus]
RS: resize event -- need to state that zoom triggers a resize
20:30:51 [oedipus]
CP: that would do it
20:31:25 [oedipus]
RS: logical approach cross-browsers
20:31:41 [oedipus]
RS: compute the resize on zoom
20:31:49 [oedipus]
RS: have to decide if 1 or 2 defects to log
20:31:51 [richardschwerdtfe]
q?
20:31:52 [oedipus]
q?
20:32:17 [oedipus]
RS: explained current version of API based on JGrahame's feedback
20:32:25 [oedipus]
RS: explained rationale behind changes
20:32:28 [oedipus]
FO: didn't hear
20:32:54 [oedipus]
RS: originally, was DrawFocusRing in canvas 2d api that took an element, an xy coordinate, and a request to have browser do drawing based on system settings
20:33:00 [Downchuck]
something of a summary about target-densityDpi and device-dpi http://friendfeed.com/mbrubeck/605bf526/target-densitydpi-in-android-webkit
20:33:15 [oedipus]
RS: 2 problems: x and y positions for caret are dealt with separately from FocusRings
20:33:57 [oedipus]
RS: second: provide x y position and width and height -- asked to use current drawing path before call DrawFocusRing so can calculate focus rectangle for api based on that -- also, can you do high contrast settings
20:34:51 [oedipus]
RS: problem with spec text is if can't do FocusRing, have author-defined FocusRing which system can't find -- collapsed into 1 call -- if OS can draw FocusRing bassed on system settings
20:35:01 [oedipus]
FO: will review and comment in detail on list
20:35:32 [oedipus]
frankoliver, HTML Canvas 2D proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/att-0179/HTML_Canvas_2D_Context.html
20:36:11 [oedipus]
RS: CaretSelectRectangle -- hixie wants tied to drawing call -- SO, to set caret position, like to go through API again next week to see if any issues that need correcting
20:37:01 [oedipus]
CP: CaretSelectionRates -- issue: can't get baseline of text i'm using without more info on current font (basefont determines relativity -- don't want caret jumping all over the place
20:37:34 [oedipus]
CP: tried to propose in a few fora -- extend MeasureText -- only has legnth -- don't need height, but need baseline to draw rectangle or texty
20:37:56 [oedipus]
RS: want to propose a modification and post to public-html-a11y and public-canvas-api
20:38:14 [oedipus]
RS: look at baseline text
20:38:40 [oedipus]
RS: caret blink rate: weren't going to have for RTE, but if reproducing in TEXTAREA need to know blink rate -- please look at that API
20:38:56 [oedipus]
RS: have to modify hixie's example -- broken in several places
20:39:20 [oedipus]
RS: question for FO -- IE can put elements in subtree in keyboard navigation -- is that in IE9 beta?
20:39:29 [oedipus]
FO: in IE9 beta -- should work for many issues
20:39:46 [oedipus]
FO: been extensively tested -- doubled "get cost"
20:39:51 [oedipus]
q?
20:40:06 [oedipus]
RS: certain nodes that shouldn't be allowed -- FRAME and IFRAME
20:40:22 [oedipus]
FO: FRAME and IFRAME security risk when below non-visual layer
20:40:33 [oedipus]
FO: agree no FRAME or IFRAME in CANVAS
20:41:00 [oedipus]
FO: define what controls can be used -- radioboxes, checkboxes, etc. -- visual authoirs should make canvas as simple as possible
20:41:21 [oedipus]
RS: basic DIV and SPAN and few simple things like INPUT type="text"?
20:41:42 [oedipus]
FO: reuse INPUT types -- checkboxes; text entry more tricky -- need to do a lot more work as said at TPAC
20:41:48 [oedipus]
RS: what about DETAILS?
20:41:55 [oedipus]
FO: good question -- will mull on it
20:42:16 [oedipus]
RS: FO, will you list thngs that will be real problems -- FRAME, IFRAME and what else?
20:42:24 [oedipus]
FO: will put together list
20:42:31 [oedipus]
RS: canvas should not be a child of canvas!
20:43:38 [oedipus]
CP: IFRAME, FRAME and CANVAS are the only ones -- should be possible to take existing web page go underneath BODY and wrap all in CANVAS -- if don't support canvas, go back to native rendering -- only restriction is need fallback content to work and to show up if want it -- SCRIPT, IFRAME would have security issues
20:43:54 [oedipus]
list so far: CANVAS, FRAME, IFRAME, SCRIPT
20:44:08 [oedipus]
RS: asks FO about cross-browser comparison promised at TPAC
20:44:12 [oedipus]
FO: need a few more days
20:44:46 [oedipus]
RS: did mention getting selection objects; spelling and grammer window.get spell or grammar errors that pulls back collection of ranges
20:45:06 [oedipus]
RS: prototype in IE? don't see FF working on CANVAS before 4.0 released
20:45:13 [oedipus]
RS: FO have cycles for this?
20:45:23 [oedipus]
FO: focused on shipping IE9
20:45:32 [oedipus]
RS: timeframe? how much longer?
20:45:48 [oedipus]
FO: no answer to that
20:46:06 [oedipus]
FO: prototyping may not be possible until beginning of 2011
20:46:21 [oedipus]
RS: examples of RTE on CANVAS
20:47:51 [oedipus]
CP: started project a while ago -- tried to implement full set of layers needed for RTE -- what to do with CSS? how to use DOM? all issues down to text-entry -- spec has ranges and contenteditable, so stopped thre -- text entry works nicely apart from baseline issues -- DIV contententeditable -- some internal APIs but hope to tweak that as spec allows
20:47:58 [oedipus]
RS: open source
20:48:24 [oedipus]
CP: will send URIs to list -- open and runs on few diff environments -- details to follow
20:48:40 [oedipus]
RS: so -- group review needed to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/att-0179/HTML_Canvas_2D_Context.html
20:49:11 [oedipus]
RS: please review attachment
20:49:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/15-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
20:49:37 [oedipus]
RS: CP will make proposal for baseline text, right?
20:49:39 [oedipus]
CP: yes
20:49:46 [oedipus]
RS: please modify attachment to do that
20:49:56 [oedipus]
CP: great to get this aired and worked on
20:50:14 [oedipus]
RS: eliminating elemtents in CANVAS sub-tree will help us
20:50:32 [oedipus]
RS: mobile community -- talked about HTML profiles
20:50:38 [oedipus]
HTML WG TPAC 2010 F2F Canvas A11y Discussion: http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html#item15
20:51:27 [oedipus]
CP: done it -- documented what profile is as part of this RTE inquiry -- CANVAS has instrinsic link with CSS (subset of CSS) -- will speak to that have a lot of experience in that area
20:51:52 [Zakim]
-Gregory_Rosmaita
20:51:53 [Zakim]
-Charles_Pritchard
20:51:53 [Zakim]
-frankolivier
20:51:55 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(A11Y)3:00PM has ended
20:51:57 [Zakim]
Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, Rich, +1.949.637.aaaa, Charles_Pritchard, frankolivier
20:52:00 [oedipus]
[ADJOURNED - next meeting next monday]
20:52:10 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-a11y
20:52:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/15-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
20:52:41 [Downchuck]
I'm the 949 number (And Charles)
20:54:07 [oedipus]
present- +1.949.637.aaaa
20:54:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/15-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
21:10:43 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items