15:57:56 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
15:57:56 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/11-html-a11y-irc
15:58:05 zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(HTML
15:58:05 ok, janina, I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM already started
15:58:09 richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
15:58:16 zakim, call janina
15:58:16 ok, janina; the call is being made
15:58:17 +Janina
15:58:47 zakim, who's here?
15:58:47 On the phone I see John_Foliot, Janina
15:58:48 On IRC I see richardschwerdtfe, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, JF, oedipus, MikeSmith, davidb, sideshow, MichaelC, trackbot
15:58:55 +Gregory_Rosmaita
15:59:07 trackbot, start meeting
15:59:09 RRSAgent, make logs world
15:59:11 Zakim, this will be 2119
15:59:11 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
15:59:12 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:59:12 Date: 11 November 2010
15:59:58 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0135.html
16:00:55 eric_carlson has joined #html-a11y
16:01:04 zakim, this 2119
16:01:04 I don't understand 'this 2119', MichaelC
16:01:09 zakim, who here?
16:01:09 I don't understand your question, oedipus.
16:01:09 zakim, this is 2119
16:01:10 ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM
16:01:16 zakim, who's on the phone?
16:01:16 On the phone I see John_Foliot, Janina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Michael_Cooper, Mike, Rich
16:01:25 +Eric_Carlson
16:01:40 chair: Janina_Sajka
16:02:33 regrets: Léonie_Watson,Silvia_Pfeiffer,Kenny_Johar,Laura_Carlson
16:03:07 +[Microsoft]
16:03:32 zakim, Microsoft has Paul_Cotton
16:03:32 +Paul_Cotton; got it
16:03:50 MichaelC has joined #html-a11y
16:04:18 zakim, Microsoft is Paul_Cotton
16:04:18 +Paul_Cotton; got it
16:05:01 zakim, who's here?
16:05:01 On the phone I see John_Foliot, Janina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Michael_Cooper, Mike, Rich, Eric_Carlson, Paul_Cotton
16:05:01 Marco_Ranon has joined #html-a11y
16:05:03 Paul_Cotton has Paul_Cotton
16:05:05 On IRC I see MichaelC, eric_carlson, richardschwerdtfe, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, JF, oedipus, MikeSmith, davidb, sideshow, trackbot
16:05:22 paulc has joined #html-a11y
16:05:39 cyns has joined #html-a11y
16:05:56 Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
16:05:56 Chair: Janina_Sajka
16:05:56 agenda: this
16:05:56 agenda+ Identify Scribe
16:05:56 agenda+ Actions Review
16:05:57 agenda+ TPAC Report
16:05:59 agenda+ Issue-134 TabList-Role
16:06:01 agenda+ Issue=133 Modal-Attribute
16:06:03 agenda+ Issue-122 Lady of Shalott Example
16:06:05 agenda+ Issue-80 Title as alt text
16:06:07 agenda+ Issue-31 Resolving alt text guidance
16:06:09 agenda+ Keyboard Access Next Steps
16:06:11 agenda+ Drag & Drop
16:06:13 agenda+ Forms Accessibility
16:06:15 agenda+ Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mappings; Media; Bug Triage
16:06:17 agenda+ next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe
16:06:19 agenda+ be done
16:07:20 scribenick: oedipus
16:07:25 scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
16:07:49 zakim, take up agendum 1
16:07:49 agendum 1. "Identify Scribe" taken up [from janina]
16:07:58 zakim, take up agendum 2
16:07:58 agendum 2. "Actions Review" taken up [from janina]
16:08:37 +[Microsoft]
16:08:49 + +44.207.391.aaaa
16:08:49 zakim, microsoft has me
16:08:49 +cyns; got it
16:08:50 - +44.207.391.aaaa
16:09:31 ACTION-194: The definition of img should be: The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content for those who cannot process images or who have image loading disabled.
16:09:31 Sorry... adding notes to ACTION-194 failed, please let sysreq know about it
16:09:33 ACTION-195: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/purely_decorative_images
16:09:33 Sorry... adding notes to ACTION-195 failed, please let sysreq know about it
16:09:36 + +44.207.391.aabb
16:09:52 JS: propose we skip today
16:09:56 action-74?
16:09:56 ACTION-74 -- Steve Faulkner to update change proposal on bug 10592 (was HTML WG action 197) -- due 2010-11-12 -- OPEN
16:09:56 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/74
16:10:12 MC: been collating and organizing actions that arose out of TPAC and separating sub-team issues
16:10:21 MC: migrated ones picked up by HTML tracker
16:10:38 ACTION-194: The definition of img should be: The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content for those who cannot process images or who have image loading disabled.
16:10:38 Sorry... adding notes to ACTION-194 failed, please let sysreq know about it
16:10:41 The WG list of actions looks better now: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/open
16:11:10 zakim, aabb is Marco_Ranon
16:11:10 +Marco_Ranon; got it
16:11:12 The definition of img should be: The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content for those who cannot process images or who have image loading disabled.
16:11:14 zakim, mute me
16:11:14 Marco_Ranon should now be muted
16:12:33 GJR: The definition of img should be: The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content for those who cannot process images or who have image loading disabled.
16:12:40 JS: please file as change proposal
16:12:42 GJR: will do
16:12:58 ACTION-195 fulfillment http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/purely_decorative_images
16:13:08 zakim, take up next agendum
16:13:08 agendum 1. "Identify Scribe" taken up [from janina]
16:13:23 scribe: Rich
16:13:29 zakim, agendum 3
16:13:29 I don't understand 'agendum 3', oedipus
16:13:33 Topic: TPAC Report
16:13:43 janina: we had an action packed week
16:13:49 janina: lots of action items
16:14:04 http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html
16:14:07 http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-minutes.html
16:14:31 janina: the HTML WG meeting was 2 days in 2 rooms with lots of discussion. The minutes gregory just posted
16:14:39 kliehm has joined #html-a11y
16:14:46 janina: there was major activity in media
16:15:14 note that the each of the minutes from HTML WG sessions contains 2-days' worth of minutes
16:15:19 + +49.179.103.aacc
16:15:32 janina: there were many positive things expected for accessibility that I focused on in the plenary.
16:15:32 janina: aria mappings, etc. many highlights
16:15:50 janina: Any questions before going into detail?
16:15:59 janina: is everett on the call?
16:16:30 janina: will postpone issues 134 and 133 as he is not available now
16:16:39 cyns has joined #html-a11y
16:16:57 Topic: issue 122
16:17:25 ACTION-195 fulfillment http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/purely_decorative_images
16:17:25 janina: we actioned someone for a different example.
16:17:49 oedipus: I am going to come up with a proposal for truly decorative images
16:17:53 + +1.703.391.aadd
16:18:03 HTML5 section 4.8.1.1.7
16:18:10 oedipus: redraft this section
16:18:40 Exceptions to this rule, in cases where CSS cannot be used to display an entirely decorative image, are covered by the HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives. [HTML ALT TECHS] Authors are also encouraged to consult the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0 for more detailed information and acceptable techniques. [WCAG 2.0]
16:18:58 zakim, who's on the phone?
16:18:58 On the phone I see John_Foliot, Janina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Michael_Cooper, Mike, Rich, Eric_Carlson, Paul_Cotton, [Microsoft], Marco_Ranon (muted), kliehm (muted), +1.703.391.aadd
16:19:01 [Microsoft] has cyns
16:19:01 Paul_Cotton has Paul_Cotton
16:19:31 zakim, aadd is Don_Evans
16:19:31 +Don_Evans; got it
16:20:28 Exceptions to this rule, in cases where CSS cannot be used to display an entirely decorative image, are covered by the HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives. [HTML ALT TECHS] Authors are also encouraged to consult the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0 for more detailed information and acceptable techniques. [WCAG 2.0]
16:20:49 oedipus: I decided that the best way forward was to take the first part and then take the second paragraph. Rather than take the Lady of Chalotte example the wisest thing is to remove this example and rather than state in the HTML 5 spec. what to do with decorative images. ... Rather than go into a discussion on what to do in the case where an image is truly decorative to point to the HTML alt text and wcag for exceptable techniques
16:20:53 ACTION-195 change propsal: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/purely_decorative_images
16:21:07 +1 to this Greg
16:21:10 janina: we should consider this quickly
16:21:30 janina: getting the proposal together is obviously the priority
16:21:56 janina: we should finalize this discussion next week
16:21:57 GJR: one thing that might need addition is to state that images defined using CSS cannot be annotated (@alt, @labelledby)
16:22:16 oedipus: if it is truly decorative and part of sitewise design use CSS
16:22:48 oedipus: there is a second paragraph of exceptions to the rule
16:23:08 cyns: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/purely_decorative_images
16:23:10 oedipus. are there are peer sections that discuss decorative images?
16:23:30 cynthia: are there are peer sections that discuss decorative images?
16:23:45 oedipus: will look
16:23:54 Topic: Issue 80
16:24:26 ACTION-195: GJR to add note about CSS image annotation; review other sections of HTML5 draft to ensure that all information about use of alt text and its usage have been removed and ported to the HTML5 Alt Techs document
16:24:26 Sorry... adding notes to ACTION-195 failed, please let sysreq know about it
16:24:29 janina: we look at this again and the resolution was that no change to the previous guidance. We should stick to previous guidance
16:24:50 janina: title should not be treated as an alternative to alt
16:25:11 plus 1 to a resolution to reconfirm guidance
16:25:43 rich: so alt should be given precedence to title for accessible name computation?
16:25:46 janina: yes
16:25:54 Marco_Ranon_ has joined #html-a11y
16:26:09 plus 1 to a resolution to reconfirm guidance
16:26:53 Resolution: title should not be treated a replacement for alt on images.
16:27:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/11-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:27:27 janina has joined #html-a11y
16:27:28 RESOLUTION: title should not be treated a replacement for alt on images.
16:27:33 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/
16:27:59 michael: the url is just an index of messages
16:28:07 i/janina: we had an action packed week/scribenick: richardschwedtfe/
16:28:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/11-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:28:25 Topic: Issue 31
16:28:41 janina: this is the primary place holder for alt text in the spec.
16:29:06 i/janina: we had an action packed week/scribenick: richardschwerdtfe/
16:29:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/11-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:29:13 janina: we tried to separate conformance checking from guidance
16:29:38 q+ to say that the ones that were eliminated should be fed to the UAWG for UAAG 2.0
16:29:50 janina: we came up with two sets of recommendations on both. In the case of conformance I asked Laura to combine two recommendations
16:30:24 q?
16:30:28 janina: We thought the recommendations was to take the recommendation on alt or to keep as in HTML 4 or to keep as is in the spec. today
16:30:49 janina: I sent an email to Laura and it was unclear what the differences were between 2 and 4
16:31:04 janina: the labelledby is part of 2
16:31:21 janina: can you explain you you see the difference
16:31:51 janina: I am not sure where to go with this
16:31:52 laura: change proposals regarding missing alt and conformance: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0095.html
16:32:04 cynthia: I thought our goal was to reduce the number of proposals in Leone
16:32:24 Cynthia: if we can't understand all the proposals there is no way the working group will
16:32:46 janina: if we combine 2 and 4 regarding the labelledby
16:33:01 cynthia: more clear is a good thing
16:33:16 janina: I can do that
16:33:44 janina: our advice to drop the other proposals would be good?
16:33:55 q-
16:34:06 cynthia: I agree it is too complicated
16:34:07 cynthia: only 3 proposals be reviewed by the chairs
16:34:22 janina: any objection?
16:34:42 janina: we are on the verge of reconfirming the concensus in the room
16:35:09 janina: will finalize next week in the meeting?
16:35:13 plus 1 to CfC
16:35:20 cynthia: can we do this earlier as they are concerned about time
16:37:04 RESOLUTION: Regarding Issue 31 is to conduct a survey on 3 change proposals: keep it the same as in HTML 4; do nothing; implement the WAI consensus guidelines
16:37:32 janina: I will look at this later today
16:38:05 janina: we had recommended that we keep the wai concensus guidelines
16:38:29 Topic: keyboard access
16:39:02 oedipus: Thanks to the bug triage team. They have identified a single bug based on the access command requirements
16:39:17 oedipus: we should ping you when?
16:39:31 janina: we should ping you when?
16:39:36 oedipus: next week
16:39:49 Topic: Accessibility of Forms in the spec
16:39:50 s/single bug/single master bug/
16:40:00 janina: gregory asked to postpone for a week
16:40:10 regrets+ Joshue_O'Connor
16:40:12 Topic: canvas
16:40:52 RS: re-starting monday calls for canvas to investigate rich text editing -- separated out reqs for using standard controls using APIs -- will address in change proposal
16:41:54 RS: plan: asked to create individual defects related to RTE -- what needs to be done as far as API changes to 2D context standard controls to define wwhich elements are allowable in canvas sub-tree -- 1st time that used shadow DOM to navigate but not render -- some issues need to be investigated about it -- what constitutes fallback and how to keep in sync
16:42:32 RS: Rich Text Editing -- will take a lot of time; need to ensure that what is in contenteditable section can be reflected in a CANVAS implementation -- can't do now -- those are the issues we are working on
16:43:20 q+
16:43:21 RS: re-iterate PaulC's comment -- in mobile TV space, comment made "what would you need for a profile"? canvas + javascript would hit the "sweet spot" -- must address a11y in RTE because Canvas might be only UI one can see in complex apps
16:43:33 CS: frankO on board with that?
16:43:35 RS: yes
16:43:40 RS: which "that"?
16:43:45 CS: anything to do with RTE
16:44:01 RS: said need to define where gaps are -- didn't think could do by last call
16:44:25 PC: that is fair portrayal -- FrankO's warning was "this is not a trivial pursuit -- it will take a lot of effort"
16:44:50 JS: messages have to be clear -- enough complexity in proposed text
16:44:59 ack me
16:45:03 JS: questions?
16:45:38 MK: talked with FrankO -- inside canvas doubled testing effort -- concern: prevent double texting
16:45:45 RS: doubletexting of.... ?
16:45:52 RS: components not being rendered will double?
16:46:07 MK: yes, concern was that testing efforts have to be doubled because have 2 diff contexts
16:46:22 RS: don't see how can reduce -- there is content now that is not being rendered -- going to be a lot of work
16:46:40 MK: so there will be some pain for everyone?
16:47:06 RS: yes -- trying to ensure that address all of the canvas issues -- spec allows shadow DOM -- in spec -- needs to be synced with what is in visual rendering
16:47:35 s/concern: double texting/concern: double testing/
16:47:39 RS: next step: make sure that when have shadow DOM what is appropriate behavior of UA in HTML -- how to render IFrame in shadow DOM -- rendering issues -- is CSS allowed
16:47:53 RS: need to flesh out shadow DOM in HTML5 spec
16:48:00 s/double texting/double testing/
16:48:08 PC: said starting up sub-team
16:48:26 PC: what is relative priority of that work taking resources away from other important a11y work
16:48:39 RS: think done with ARIA in HTML5 work -- should fiinish in few weeks
16:48:57 RS: not working on media stuff because i have canvas and ARIA on my plate -- heard FrankO getting involved in media
16:49:07 RS: FrankO might be critical resource for both efforts
16:49:43 PC: one of my concerns as WG chair, have to have "greeedy algorithm" -- December 8 for editors; ChangeProposals: February 23, 2011
16:50:02 PC: want to ensure that don't get to january 23rd and have people say "hey, can't make deadline for LC"
16:50:14 PC: want to provide perspective -- will have to perform balancing act
16:50:32 RS: appreciate concern -- trying to get ARIA to CR using same core group of people
16:50:47 PC: where are we with a11y issues and what is schedule for doing work assigned at F2F
16:51:30 PC: by first week in december, would like to have a TF report in 3 weeks to say this is where TF putting resources to meet 23 February 2011 date
16:51:41 RS: february 23?
16:51:59 PC: 23 February 2011 is deadline for all change proposals for escalated problems
16:52:35 PC: chairs negotiating with editors about 8 December 2010 date -- number of bugs being closed reather quickly -- some have already been decided; editors are processing LC bugs at same time
16:52:55 PC: for a11y, always have to have "this is when change proposals need to be done" target in our minds
16:53:10 PC: why we dedicated a lot of time to a11y issues at HTML WG F2F at TPAC
16:53:13 RRSAgent, make log public
16:53:33 JS: ARIA mappings pretty close to complete?
16:53:48 RS: in terms of aria integration, yes; a11y mapping will take longer
16:53:53 JS: ARIA mapping for HTML5
16:53:58 RS: should be finished next week
16:54:04 CS: due next week so it will be don
16:54:09 s/don/done/
16:54:24 RS: at that point chairs will have to make decisions -- once done, will be major win for a11y
16:54:47 JS: will free up time -- sub-team may go back on hiatus again depending on circumstances
16:54:55