15:40:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
15:40:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/10-forms-irc
15:40:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:40:20 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #forms
15:40:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_XForms
15:40:22 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_XForms()11:00AM scheduled to start in 20 minutes
15:40:23 <trackbot> Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
15:40:23 <trackbot> Date: 10 November 2010
15:56:49 <pfennell> pfennell has joined #forms
15:58:59 <nick> nick has joined #forms
15:59:14 <nick> zakim, code?
15:59:14 <Zakim> the conference code is 93676 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), nick
15:59:58 <pfennell> I'll be on the call in the next five minutes.
16:00:10 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has now started
16:00:17 <Zakim> +??P9
16:00:30 <nick> zakim, I am ??P9
16:00:30 <Zakim> +nick; got it
16:00:44 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
16:00:44 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
16:00:45 <Zakim> +Steven
16:01:35 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Nov/0010.html
16:01:53 <Steven> Regrets: Erik, Uli
16:03:15 <Zakim> +Leigh_Klotz
16:04:47 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #forms
16:05:25 <John_Boyer> zakim, code?
16:05:25 <Zakim> the conference code is 93676 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), John_Boyer
16:05:31 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
16:06:53 <Zakim> -nick
16:07:10 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:07:21 <nick> zakim, I'm IPCaller
16:07:21 <Zakim> I don't understand 'I'm IPCaller', nick
16:07:25 <Steven> zakim, [IP is nick
16:07:25 <Zakim> +nick; got it
16:07:39 <Steven> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:07:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see Steven, Leigh_Klotz, John_Boyer, nick
16:08:16 <klotz> zakim, who is choppy?
16:08:16 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, klotz.
16:09:02 <John_Boyer> bind nodeset="age" constraint=". &lt;= 65"
16:09:16 <John_Boyer> bind nodeset="age" constraint=". >= 18"
16:10:18 <John_Boyer> bind nodeset="age" constraint=". >= 18" alert="You must be at least 18"
16:10:30 <John_Boyer> and similarly alert="you must be less than or equal to 65"
16:11:12 <John_Boyer> just for illustrative purposes
16:12:03 <Zakim> + +44.782.483.aaaa
16:12:22 <Steven> zakim, aaaa is pfennell
16:12:22 <Zakim> +pfennell; got it
16:12:27 <John_Boyer> Nick and Leigh: need a way to separate UI from presentation
16:12:37 <klotz> <bind nodeset="age" constraint=". &gt;= 65 ""you must be less than or equal to 65 >
16:13:25 <John_Boyer> Steven: I feel a similar problem with select/select1, where we hardwire esp. values in the UI where they should be in the model
16:14:02 <John_Boyer> Steven: This is the other direction but similar in that you have to repeat yourself at both UI and model levels
16:14:18 <John_Boyer> Steven: part of a larger story about separation of model and UI
16:16:04 <John_Boyer> Leigh: If you had the xforms-invalid event that included the bind ID of the constraint that failed, 
16:16:17 <John_Boyer> Leigh: not necessarily xforms-invalid
16:16:43 <John_Boyer> John: breaks because alert not tied to xforms-invalid
16:18:45 <John_Boyer> John: but logical equivalent of css pseudo-class is something we're free to implement as being always correct, and so it can be tied to whether you show the alert
16:20:26 <John_Boyer> If you go from invalid because of input 17 to invalid because of input 67, then you don't get an xforms-invalid because the UI control goes from invalid to invalid
16:21:20 <John_Boyer> Steven: that needs fixing
16:25:38 <Steven> It is a result of us considering invalidity as a monolithic property
16:25:43 <John_Boyer> John: you could get xforms-invalid with two different context infos, then that would conflict with UI events improvements, which are attempting to eliminate duplicate versions of such events
16:27:25 <John_Boyer> Leigh: maybe you could use the calculation engine
16:27:39 <John_Boyer> John: yes that's how I got to using a pseudo MIP syntax
16:27:49 <John_Boyer> Steven: You mean the attribute on the bind
16:27:51 <John_Boyer> John: Yes
16:28:47 <John_Boyer> John: would be nice if you could configure an alert MIP using codes that could be referenced by alert at the UI level
16:29:07 <John_Boyer> <bind ... constraint="X" alertcode="1"
16:29:20 <John_Boyer> <bind ... constraint="Y" alertcode="2
16:29:21 <klotz> <bind id="too_young" constraint="age < 3"><alert bind="too_young">...</>
16:29:37 <John_Boyer> <input> ... <alert ref=" something that refers to alert codes and makes strings"
16:31:19 <Steven> <bind constraint=",>17"><alert>Too young!</alert></bind>
16:31:26 <Steven> s/,/./
16:31:31 <John_Boyer> Maybe you could say that UI alert ref="X" is a reference to the alert message associated with thenode
16:31:40 <Steven> Exactly
16:32:15 <John_Boyer> <bind ... constraint="X"><alert>Broken due to X</alert></bind>
16:32:36 <John_Boyer> s/.../ref="some node"
16:33:12 <Steven> <bind ref="age" constraint ". &gt; 17"><alert>Too young</alter></bind>
16:33:21 <John_Boyer> Steven: <input ref="some node"> automatically gets the alert from above
16:33:27 <Steven> yes
16:34:36 <John_Boyer> Nick: But if you want to style it, then it needs to be in the UI
16:34:43 <John_Boyer> Steven: It is copied to the UI
16:35:29 <John_Boyer> John: wouldn't this type of alert show up in UI as a pseudo element?
16:35:50 <John_Boyer> Nick: yes but you'd also need to be able to get it in the error summary
16:36:19 <John_Boyer> John: Yes, this is where we'd need to issue an xforms-invalid for an invalid control because the reason changed
16:36:46 <John_Boyer> Nick: Putting just text is insufficient due to translation needs
16:36:59 <John_Boyer> John: you could put a ref on the alert in the bind
16:37:04 <klotz> <repeat nodeset="invalidity-reasons('age')
16:37:33 <John_Boyer> Nick: Can you use an output with mediatype text/html in the alert in the bind?
16:38:29 <John_Boyer> John: I don't have a problem with it because we already do this in the message action
16:39:59 <John_Boyer> ACTION: John to add the constraint-sensitive alert issue described above to the wiki in Category XForms 1.2 as an issue, with links from UI events and multiple MIPs
16:40:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-647 - Add the constraint-sensitive alert issue described above to the wiki in Category XForms 1.2 as an issue, with links from UI events and multiple MIPs [on John Boyer - due 2010-11-17].
16:40:08 <Steven> Topic: Spec
16:40:24 <Steven> trackbot, status?
16:40:53 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_1.1_in_Wiki
16:41:04 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/Test/XForms1.2/Overview.html
16:41:11 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2007/10/htmldiff?doc1=http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/&doc2=http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/Test/XForms1.2/Overview.html
16:42:09 <John_Boyer> Steven: a number of groups have been asking how we did the spec in the wiki, so I'll have to report to HCG
16:42:11 <nick> * No section nr. in section references
16:42:11 <nick> * [] is no longer part of link for references
16:42:11 <nick> * missing <p> -> less spacing
16:42:24 <John_Boyer> Steven: diff doesn't show 100% of changes
16:43:19 <John_Boyer> Steven: section numbers are hard to add and examples are all showing up as diffs
16:45:00 <John_Boyer> Steven: so other than a few minor issues, the spec is ready to go and we need to decide what our next steps are
16:45:21 <John_Boyer> Steven: we've talked about refactoring the spec, for example
16:45:56 <John_Boyer> Nick: group, switch, repeat, and functions look straightforward
16:46:10 <John_Boyer> John: submission is more or less a module too
16:46:38 <John_Boyer> John: a couple of functions are module-specific
16:48:15 <John_Boyer> Nick: they can be moved to their respective modules, but the functions module is still a good idea for most of them
16:49:25 <Steven> Type card-number is related to is-card-number
16:49:50 <John_Boyer> Steven: In some cases, the function is linked to a datatype, e.g. is-card-number() is related to the card-number datatype, so maybe it should go in a datatypes module? 
16:49:54 <Steven> SO the questions is, are datatypes and functions seperable
16:50:02 <Steven> s/SO/So/
16:50:07 <Steven> s/questions/question/
16:50:14 <John_Boyer> Steven: we have a lot of date manipulation functions as well
16:50:44 <Steven> So maybe things like that should be brought together
16:51:23 <John_Boyer> John: how would we indicate what constitutes the whole of XForms 1.2?
16:51:42 <John_Boyer> Steven: collect the chapters together, perhaps by reference?
16:51:52 <John_Boyer> s/?/
16:52:05 <John_Boyer> John: other than by reference, isn't that what we have now?
16:55:05 <nick> what about http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/The_XForms_Dialog_Module, http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/The_XForms_Transform_Function_Module do we merge them in to the XForms spec?
16:57:14 <John_Boyer> John: these chapters are largely separable, but the last 10% is really hard, from our prior experience
16:57:23 <John_Boyer> John: I think we could leave it separate so we can start to figure out what we can live with in terms of a separate module that references to the rest of the spec.  
16:57:32 <John_Boyer> Leigh: I like the lazy authoring approach.
16:58:44 <John_Boyer> ACTION: Steven to create the XForms 1.2 page in the wiki as the basis from which to work
16:58:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-648 - Create the XForms 1.2 page in the wiki as the basis from which to work [on Steven Pemberton - due 2010-11-17].
16:59:13 <John_Boyer> John: we could use the 1.1 page as the basis for creating 1.1 second edition with diffs for errata
16:59:36 <Zakim> -Steven
16:59:37 <Zakim> -Leigh_Klotz
16:59:37 <Zakim> -pfennell
16:59:38 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
16:59:46 <Zakim> -nick
16:59:47 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has ended
16:59:48 <Zakim> Attendees were nick, Steven, Leigh_Klotz, John_Boyer, [IPcaller], +44.782.483.aaaa, pfennell
16:59:56 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make minutes
16:59:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/10-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer
17:00:17 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, bye
17:00:17 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/10-forms-actions.rdf :
17:00:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: John to add the constraint-sensitive alert issue described above to the wiki in Category XForms 1.2 as an issue, with links from UI events and multiple MIPs [1]
17:00:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/10-forms-irc#T16-39-59
17:00:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven to create the XForms 1.2 page in the wiki as the basis from which to work [2]
17:00:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/10-forms-irc#T16-58-44