IRC log of ua on 2010-11-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:47:17 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
15:47:17 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/09-ua-irc
15:47:19 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:47:19 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
15:47:21 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
15:47:21 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG(CHAIRS)10:30AM scheduled to start 17 minutes ago
15:47:22 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
15:47:22 [trackbot]
Date: 09 November 2010
15:47:42 [kford]
We believe we are placing the call now.
15:48:02 [kford]
we hear you and see you.
15:48:21 [kford]
Hey, do you have us muted?
15:48:32 [kford]
Do hyou have us muted?
15:48:40 [jeanne]
Zakim, this is WAI_(UAWG1)10:30AM
15:48:40 [Zakim]
ok, jeanne; that matches WAI_(UAWG1)10:30AM
15:48:54 [jeanne]
zakim, code
15:48:54 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'code', jeanne
15:48:59 [jeanne]
zakim,code?
15:48:59 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), jeanne
15:49:09 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:49:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/09-ua-minutes.html jeanne
15:49:12 [JAllan]
back in 15
15:49:38 [kford]
We don't see you any more
15:50:07 [kford]
We are going to reboot.
15:50:28 [kford]
We are probably 15 minutes ffrom being ready, apologies.
15:51:34 [kford]
We are calling again.
15:52:39 [kford]
just a second
15:55:32 [kford]
What kind of unit do youhave?
15:56:12 [jeanne]
tandberg
16:18:37 [Jan]
zakim, why didn't you notice me joining?
16:18:37 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, Jan.
16:19:11 [Jan]
zakim, I don't understand your question.
16:19:11 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'I don't understand your question', Jan
16:19:37 [jeanne]
zakim is confused because there are two UAAG calls at this time
16:27:43 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-UAAG20-20101105/
16:31:20 [Kim]
Kelly: start with principle 1.1, provide access to alternative content -- look through subpoints
16:35:11 [Kim]
JR: too many examples -- as a general rule we should have as few examples as possible -- so it's not longer than the success criteria
16:37:14 [Kim]
GL: shorter and more conversational -- icons next to content with text alternatives or captions -- would that be short enough
16:37:57 [JAllan]
+1 to shorter
16:38:34 [Jan]
Idea: Identify Presence of Alternative Content: The user has the option of having indicators displayed with rendered elements that have alternative content (e.g. images with short text alternatives indicated with an icon)
16:39:27 [Kim]
irc://irc.w3.org:6665/ua
16:40:13 [JAllan]
http://irc.w3.org/
16:40:18 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
16:40:29 [kford]
kford has joined #ua
16:40:42 [JAllan]
http://irc.w3.org/
16:41:04 [Jan]
Or shorter: Identify Presence of Alternative Content: The user has the option of having indicators displayed with content that has alternative content (e.g. an icon to indicate an image has a short text alternatives)
16:44:22 [JAllan]
do we really need an example in the SC??
16:44:42 [JAllan]
+1
16:46:30 [Kim]
1.1.2
16:46:30 [jeanne]
Resolved: Renumber 1.1.2 & 3 to come before 1.1.1
16:48:09 [Kim]
GL: not sure we need globally
16:48:37 [JAllan]
the user can specify which types of content to render by default
16:49:23 [Kim]
1.1 .3
16:51:11 [Kim]
KF: the user can browse the alternative -- the alternatives of what
16:51:39 [Kim]
GL: the user can browse for a rendered element
16:52:02 [jeanne]
1.1.2 (former 3.1.3) Browse and Render: The user can browse content alternatives, switch between them, and render them according to the following (Level A):
16:52:24 [Kim]
KF: it's got to be a plural
16:52:26 [Greg]
"For any rendered element, the user can browse..."
16:52:38 [Kim]
JA: must be associated with each piece of content
16:53:47 [Kim]
GL: what did we come up with for a summary
16:53:58 [Kim]
GL: I find the bold items difficult to read
16:54:00 [JAllan]
upshots http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0007.html
16:54:39 [JAllan]
Upshot: Let users see at a glance which pieces of content have alternatives like alt text or longdesc (3.1.1) and click on an item to see its available alternatives (3.3.3); they can also choose at least one alternative like alt text to be always displayed (3.1.2), but it's recommended that they also be able to specify a cascade, like alt text if it's there, otherwise longdesc, otherwise,...
16:54:41 [JAllan]
...filename, etc.
16:55:36 [Greg]
"synchronized alternatives for time-based media can be rendered at the same time as their associated audio and visual tracks (e.g., captions, audio descriptions, or sign language for video or audio)"
16:56:49 [Greg]
"non-synchronized alternatives can be rendered as replacements for the original rendered content (e.g., short text alternatives or long descriptions for images)"
16:59:01 [Greg]
So the entire thing now would be be: "For any rendered element, the user can browse the alternatives, switch between them, and render them according to the following (Level A): * synchronized alternatives for time-based media can be rendered at the same time as their associated audio and visual tracks (e.g., captions, audio descriptions, or sign language for video or audio)* non-synchronized alternatives can be rendered as replacements for the original rendered cont
17:01:00 [Greg]
""For any rendered element, the user can browse the alternatives, and choose at least one to be rendered according to the following ..."
17:03:22 [Greg]
The question is, do we want to require the user be able to see more than one alternative at the same time?
17:03:47 [Jan]
When a rendered element has alternatives, the user can control rendering of the alternatives according to the following:
17:04:59 [Kim]
KF: for any rendered element with alternatives
17:05:43 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:05:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/09-ua-minutes.html jeanne
17:05:51 [Greg]
Could shorten the second clause to be "the user can control which are rendered", as we've already said we're talking about alternatives.
17:07:00 [Kim]
GL: still need to decide whether we want to explicitly require whether the user can see more than one at the same time
17:08:03 [Greg]
Another slight, shorter variation on Jan's wording: "For any rendered element, the user can control rendering of the alternatives"
17:08:23 [Jan]
For any rendered element, the user can control rendering ofany alternatives
17:09:07 [Jan]
For any rendered element, the user can control rendering of the alternative content
17:09:22 [Kim]
When a rendered element has alternatives, the user can control the alternatives according to the following:
17:10:32 [Jan]
When a rendered element has alternative content, the user can control the alternatives according to the following:
17:11:28 [JAllan]
+1
17:11:31 [Jan]
+1
17:11:47 [Greg]
"can have alternatives rendered according to the following"?
17:12:41 [Greg]
Just because "control" is a bit broad.
17:14:11 [Kim]
JR: long descriptions should be replaced, but for synchronized time-based media they can play at the same time
17:14:22 [Kim]
JA: different depending on the media type
17:14:53 [Greg]
So this only requires text alternatives *replace* images, not supplement images. Is there something else that requires or recommends the ability to have alternatives supplement the images?
17:15:05 [Kim]
JR: it does say can
17:15:40 [Kim]
JR: because only available through alternate screen readers they can be put on the screen -- particular use case we want to see although others are possible
17:16:02 [Kim]
GL: no mention of at the same time
17:16:41 [Kim]
JS: intent is clear -- doesn't mention
17:17:22 [Kim]
KF: Greg has raised an issue worth exploring, but not in this guideline perhaps. Do we want to encourage the display of all text and the image
17:17:48 [Kim]
KF: this was an option in a browser it might make people realize how crappy some of their alternate text is
17:17:53 [kford]
Issue: Do we need to encourage display of alt text and images at the same time.
17:17:53 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-76 - Do we need to encourage display of alt text and images at the same time. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/76/edit .
17:18:45 [Kim]
KF: 1.1.4
17:20:14 [Kim]
KF: cascade of types of alternatives is wordy
17:21:14 [Jan]
The user specify a preferred order of content alternatives to render by default. If the alternative content has a different height or width, the user agent will reflow the viewpor
17:21:35 [Jan]
The user can specify a preferred order of content alternatives to render by default. If the alternative content has a different height or width, the user agent will reflow the viewport.
17:21:57 [Kim]
KF: misses the point -- this is about making sure that it falls back when the first ones not there
17:23:40 [Jan]
The user can specify the fallback order in which to render content alternatives.
17:24:02 [Jan]
Maybe we should move "If the alternative content has a different height or width, the user agent will reflow the viewport" to the defn?
17:24:35 [Greg]
I think the instructions on reflowing are general and not repeated everywhere.
17:25:00 [Jan]
The user can specify the fallback order in which to render alternative content.
17:26:23 [kford]
Action: Greg figure out and or create SC for content reflow.
17:26:23 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-463 - Figure out and or create SC for content reflow. [on Greg Lowney - due 2010-11-16].
17:28:12 [Greg]
I'd still prefer "different types of alternative content" but I'll yield to the majoriyity.
17:28:42 [Kim]
KF: back to 1.11
17:28:50 [Kim]
1.1.1
17:30:12 [Jan]
The user can have indicators rendered along with rendered elements that have alternative content (e.g. visual icons rendered in proximity of content that has short text alternatives, long descriptions, or captions).
17:30:23 [jeanne]
The user can specify which types of alternative content to render by default. (Level A)
17:33:09 [Kim]
The user can specify that indicators be rendered...
17:34:27 [JAllan]
The user can have indicators of alternative content rendered along with elements that have alternative content
17:35:46 [Greg]
Jan's most recent before that was "Identify Presence of Alternative Content: The user has the option of having indicators displayed with content that has alternative content (e.g. an icon to indicate an image has a short text alternatives)"
17:35:47 [Kim]
The user can specify that alternative content indicators be rendered...
17:36:14 [Jan]
The user can have indicators of alternative content rendered along with elements that have alternative content (e.g. an icon to indicate an image has a short text alternatives)
17:36:54 [Greg]
That sounds really repetitive, with "alternatve content" twice.
17:37:23 [Jan]
The user can specify that indicators be rendered along with elements that have alternative content (e.g. an icon to indicate an image has a short text alternatives)
17:38:02 [Jan]
The user can specify that indicators be rendered along with elements that have alternative content (e.g. an icon to indicate an image has a short text alternative)
17:39:14 [Jan]
The user can specify that elements that have alternative content be highlighted (e.g. an icon to indicate an image has a short text alternative)
17:39:44 [Greg]
We could use the term "highlight" which is defined as including both supplemental icons as well as outlines and other forms of visually distinguishing pieces of content.
17:41:28 [Jan]
The user can specify that elements with alternative content be highlighted (e.g. an icon to indicate an image has a short text alternative)
17:41:28 [Greg]
"The user can have elements highlighted to indicate that they have alternative content"
17:42:43 [JAllan]
The user can have indicators of alternative content rendered along with elements that have alternative content
17:42:53 [Kim]
The user can specify that alternative content indicators be rendered along with elements that have alternative content (e.g. an icon to indicate an image has a short text alternative)
17:43:16 [JAllan]
+1
17:43:26 [kford]
+1
17:43:47 [jeanne]
+1
17:44:02 [sharper]
+1
17:44:05 [Jan]
+1
17:44:17 [Greg]
I dislike it but OK
17:44:39 [JAllan]
greag meant to say ~1
17:45:47 [Greg]
-1
17:46:24 [Greg]
I can say -1 since you don't need consensus :-)
17:46:53 [Kim]
1.2.1
17:53:21 [JAllan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-UAAG20-20101105/
17:53:35 [Greg]
We don't say "receive" anywhere else in the document. Elsewhere we always talk about having things rendered.
17:53:35 [jeanne]
Repair Missing Alternatives: The user can receive generated repair text when the user agent recognizes that the author has not provided alternative content required by the technology specification (e.g. short text alternative for an image). (Level A)
17:54:36 [Kim]
JR: we don't define how it should be repaired
17:54:37 [Greg]
We also want to the user to be able to say they don't want generated repair text.
17:56:30 [Greg]
"The user can specify whether or not they want the user agent to generate and render repair text when it recognizes that the has not provided alternative content required by the technology specification (e.g. short text alternative for an image). (Level A)"
17:56:46 [Kim]
SH: not specific enough
17:58:09 [Greg]
"The user can specify whether or not the user agent should generate and render repair text when it recognizes that author has not provided alternative content required by the technology specification (e.g. short text alternative for an image). (Level A)"
17:59:21 [Kim]
JS: should the file name for an image
18:01:29 [Greg]
"The user can specify whether or not the user agent should generate and render repair text (e.g. file name) when it recognizes that author has not provided alternative content required by the technology specification. (Level A)"
18:03:11 [Greg]
So in response to Simon's concern, we could change it to: "The user can specify whether or not the user agent should generate and render repair text (e.g. file name) when it recognizes that author has not provided alternative content supported by the technology specification. (Level A)"
18:03:35 [Greg]
That is, "supported by the technology specification" instead of "required by"
18:04:04 [jeanne]
The user can specify whether or not the user agent should generate and render repair text (e.g. file name) when it recognizes that author has not provided alternative content. (Level A)
18:05:09 [Kim]
JR: what is it asking the user agent to do -- have the capacity to generate and repair text and under what circumstances
18:05:12 [Greg]
My only worry with that is that it might be too broad, e.g. forcing repair text for things (e.g. text) that normally have no defined alternatives.
18:05:37 [Kim]
JA: it can't give you things it doesn't know about
18:05:52 [Kim]
JA: if you do generate repair techs allow the user to turn it on and off -- that could be a level a thing
18:06:14 [Kim]
GL: it's not hard to generate repair text
18:06:43 [Kim]
JA: the file name is always given as an example, it's not what we are talking about exactly
18:06:58 [Kim]
GL: specification on repair text from one of the other working groups?
18:07:51 [Kim]
JR: repair text has to be human authored -- they should be providing all of this
18:08:38 [Greg]
Filenames and the like could be considered an attributes of an element rather than alternative content for it.
18:09:21 [Greg]
The user could ask the user agent to render some attributes of an element as repair text.
18:09:41 [Greg]
That takes care of Simon's concern that the repair text might be generic and not actually relevant or useful to the user.
18:09:53 [Kim]
SH: definition -- in good faith, maybe that's all we can do
18:09:58 [Greg]
Maybe not *entirely*, but at least partially.
18:10:34 [Kim]
Kim has left #ua
18:11:41 [Kim]
Kim has joined #ua
18:12:51 [jeanne]
jeanne has changed the topic to: Editors' Draft http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-UAAG20-20101105/
18:12:57 [Kim]
JR: tools do need to provide a repair capacity, repair techs needs to do something at least as smart as providing the name of the resource file, end-users need to be able to turn it on and off because they may not find it useful
18:13:19 [Kim]
repair text
18:19:39 [Greg]
I note the definition of repair content says "UAAG 2.0 does not require user agents to include repair content in the document object." which seems a problem for assistive technology
18:28:08 [JAllan]
***short break for lunch****
18:28:14 [JAllan]
scribe: jallan
18:29:51 [JAllan]
gl: concerned about removing the caveat, and forcing UA to create alternative content for text
18:30:17 [Greg]
That is by removing the phrase "when it recognizes that author has not provided alternative content supported by the technology specification."
18:32:17 [JAllan]
previously, The user can specify whether or not the user agent should generate and render repair text (e.g. file name) when it recognizes that author has not provided alternative content supported by the technology specification. (Level A)
18:33:01 [JAllan]
The user can specify whether or not the user agent should generate and render repair text (e.g. file name) when it recognizes that author has not provided alternative content. (Level A)
18:33:14 [jeanne]
Repair Missing Alternatives: The user can specify whether or not the user agent should generate and render repair text (e.g. file name) when it recognizes that author has not provided alternative content. (Level A)
18:33:23 [JAllan]
gl: does this require alternative for text.
18:33:39 [JAllan]
... with no clause, then everything needs an alternative
18:34:15 [jeanne]
repair content, repair text
18:34:15 [jeanne]
Content generated by the user agent to correct an error condition. "Repair text" refers to the text portion of repair content. Error conditions that may lead to the generation of repair content include: Erroneous or incomplete content (e.g., ill-formed markup, invalid markup, or missing alternative content that is required by format specification);
18:34:15 [jeanne]
Missing resources for handling or rendering content (e.g., the user agent lacks a font family to display some characters, or the user agent does not implement a particular scripting language).
18:34:15 [jeanne]
UAAG 2.0 does not require user agents to include repair content in the document object. Repair content inserted in the document object should conform to the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0 [WCAG10]. For more information about repair techniques for Web content and software, refer to "Techniques for Authoring Tool Accessibility Guidelines 1.0" [ATAG10-TECHS].
18:34:20 [jeanne]
script
18:34:49 [JAllan]
kf: need to scope this to the technology specification. leave it in.
18:35:41 [JAllan]
...there are only certain element that have alternative content (and something can be used to generate repair text)
18:36:03 [JAllan]
sh: what is difference between required and supported
18:37:45 [JAllan]
in HTML5 can have legend for figure, fall back text, and aria-described by, how does UA know what is missing.
18:38:09 [JAllan]
JS: that is covered by 1.1.x
18:39:43 [JAllan]
ja: what is use case?
18:40:04 [JAllan]
resolved: revisit repair text 1.2.1
18:41:38 [JAllan]
issue: revisit repair text 1.2.1 (minutes 9nov2010)
18:41:38 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-77 - Revisit repair text 1.2.1 (minutes 9nov2010) ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/77/edit .
18:42:45 [JAllan]
topic: 1.2.2 Repair Empty Alternatives
18:43:04 [JAllan]
The user has the option of receiving generated repair text when the user agent recognizes that the author has provided empty alternative content. (Level AA)
18:44:06 [JAllan]
gl: change 'receiving generated repair..." to "can specify whether or not to receive..."
18:44:51 [Greg]
"The user can specify whether or not the user agent should generate and render repair text (e.g. file name) when it recognizes that author has provided empty alternative content. (Level AA)"
18:45:54 [JAllan]
js +1
18:45:57 [JAllan]
kp +1
18:46:05 [kford]
+1
18:46:10 [Jan]
The user can specify whether or not the user agent should generate and render repair text (e.g. file name) when it recognizes that the author has provided empty alternative content. (Level AA
18:46:12 [Greg]
+1
18:46:29 [sharper]
+1
18:46:30 [JAllan]
+1
18:46:34 [Jan]
+1
18:46:43 [Kim]
+1
18:47:33 [JAllan]
topic: 1.31 Highlighted items: The user has the option to highlight the following classes of information so that each is uniquely distinguished. (Level A)
18:49:51 [Kim]
the user can specify that the following classes of information be highlighted so that each is uniquely distinguished
18:50:18 [JAllan]
+1
18:50:26 [JAllan]
kf +1
18:52:30 [Jan]
The user can specify that the following be highlighted so that each is uniquely distinguishable
18:52:51 [Jan]
The user can specify that the following be highlighted so that each is uniquely distinguished
18:52:55 [Greg]
+1
18:53:02 [JAllan]
+1
18:53:02 [Kim]
+1
18:53:32 [JAllan]
sh: what if we add another item - presence of alternative content
18:53:44 [JAllan]
that would be item (e)
18:54:09 [JAllan]
kf: seems to muddy the water.
18:54:24 [JAllan]
gl: not that much different.
18:54:46 [JAllan]
js: only the presence of alternative content, not the actual alternative content
18:55:58 [JAllan]
ja: add to doc and see if we get any comments.
18:56:02 [Greg]
If we go with that approach make it "elements with alternative content" "elements with recognized alternative content"
18:56:16 [JAllan]
kf: add to document.
18:57:09 [JAllan]
all agree.
18:57:28 [Greg]
I'm not entirely happy with having it in two places, but if you want to.
18:58:32 [JAllan]
jr: what is unique about enabled elements (1.3.1.c)
18:58:43 [JAllan]
... it makes sense
19:02:41 [JAllan]
topic: 1.3.2 Highlighting options: The highlighting options (with the same configurable range as the operating environment's conventional selection utilities) include at least (Level A):
19:03:44 [JAllan]
kp: the user can specify highlighting options...
19:05:13 [Kim]
The user can specify highlighting options (in the same configurable range as the operating environment's73 conventional selection utilities) that include at least (Level A):
19:05:40 [JAllan]
ja: perhaps add parenthetical as a (d) item
19:07:07 [JAllan]
sh: what about icons or earcons
19:07:47 [JAllan]
jr: include (in the same configurable range as the operating environment's73 conventional selection utilities) as a note before the list, but after the SC
19:08:26 [JAllan]
jr: not sure about icons/earcons...the SC already says 'at least' which leaves door open for other highlighting
19:09:25 [JAllan]
kf: if 1.3.2 is how to comply with 1.3.1 then including an icon may be necessary.
19:09:58 [jeanne]
For those who want to check on the updates - here is the latest master document. http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-UAAG20-20101109/MasterUAAG20101109.html
19:10:08 [JAllan]
gl: need to be careful about what we require. the list is a requirement...'at least' these listed items, could be more but...
19:10:43 [JAllan]
kp: put the parenthetical note after the list so it doesn't break up the reading.
19:11:19 [JAllan]
gl: perhaps create a different SC about how to highlight different types of information
19:11:20 [Jan]
The user can specify highlighting options that include at least (Level A)
19:12:54 [JAllan]
jr: input focus should be 'outline'
19:13:19 [JAllan]
... 'c' should be outline (css selector)
19:13:30 [Jan]
(a) foreground colors, (b) background colors, and (c) outline
19:14:51 [jeanne]
outline (block or text with configurable color and width)
19:16:59 [JAllan]
gl: need to be technology neutral, no mention of CSS.
19:17:54 [JAllan]
say border with configurable color, thichness (not width), and style (dotted, dashed,etc.)
19:20:33 [JAllan]
ja: how is dotted vs dashed outline programmatically determinable?
19:21:41 [JAllan]
gl: list includes...foreground color, background color, outline (configurable color & thickness)
19:21:56 [jeanne]
(a) foreground colors,
19:21:56 [jeanne]
(b) background colors, and
19:21:56 [jeanne]
(c) border (configurable color, style, and thickness)
19:22:49 [JAllan]
gl: these are the minimum. in the implementation include annimation if user can turn it off, or an icon to follow content focus
19:23:27 [JAllan]
sh: when OS changes its cursor does the UA change also
19:24:04 [JAllan]
jr: would like to drop the (with the same configurable range as the operating environment's conventional selection utilities). seems like overkill
19:24:15 [JAllan]
js and kp disagree
19:25:22 [JAllan]
gl: there needs to be a meaningful selection of choices. tho, there are some OS that do not provide options
19:25:31 [JAllan]
kp: leave it out\
19:25:49 [JAllan]
js: leave it out
19:26:26 [JAllan]
gl: what about flash, they don't have the same configuration ability.
19:26:47 [JAllan]
gl: are we talking about the user interface as well as content
19:27:00 [JAllan]
kp: how big a hole is this?
19:27:33 [JAllan]
all: leave out the clause.
19:28:12 [JAllan]
gl: put note in implementation to provide more than 2 options of highlighting options
19:29:09 [JAllan]
topic: 1.4.1 (former 3.6.1) Configure Text: The user can globally set the following characteristics of visually rendered text content, overriding any specified by the author or user agent defaults (Level A):
19:31:16 [JAllan]
gl: 1.3.1 globally seem optional, but in 1.4.1 globally seems required
19:31:37 [JAllan]
kf: assume all user configurations are global, exceptions are called out
19:32:04 [JAllan]
gl: needs to be clear when taken out of context, could be all text in a given viewport
19:32:22 [JAllan]
kp: leave it the way it is.
19:34:39 [jeanne]
action: JS to review document with Kim to insure that scope of Global vs. individual is correct for each SC.
19:34:39 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-464 - Review document with Kim to insure that scope of Global vs. individual is correct for each SC. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-11-16].
19:35:13 [JAllan]
kf: listed 3 things to specify. are we missing anything?
19:36:26 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:36:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/09-ua-minutes.html jeanne
19:38:12 [JAllan]
Resolution: the following are now completed--all of GL1.1, SC 1.2.1, all of GL 1.3, and SC 1.4.1
19:39:01 [JAllan]
topic: 1.4.2 Preserve Distinctions: The user can preserve distinctions in the size of rendered text when that text is rescaled (e.g. headers continue to be larger than body text) within absolute limitations imposed by the platform. (Level A)
19:39:34 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:39:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/09-ua-minutes.html jeanne
19:40:06 [JAllan]
gl: "within absolute limitations imposed by the platform" is to cover text only browsers
19:40:39 [jeanne]
Meeting: UAWG Video Conference
19:40:40 [JAllan]
if too complex or should be assumed could move to implementing
19:40:52 [jeanne]
Chair: KFord, JAllan
19:41:20 [JAllan]
kf: would like to move platform statement to implementing document
19:41:29 [JAllan]
ja: +1
19:41:37 [JAllan]
gl: ok with moving it
19:41:38 [jeanne]
present+ Greg, Jim, Jan, Jeanne, Kelly, Kim, Mark, Simon
19:42:06 [JAllan]
1.4.2 Preserve Distinctions: The user can preserve distinctions in the size of rendered text when that text is rescaled (e.g. headers continue to be larger than body text)
19:43:53 [jeanne]
Preserve Distinctions: The user can specify that distinctions in the size of rendered text be preserved when that text is rescaled (e.g. headers continue to be larger than body text) within absolute limitations imposed by the platform. (Level A)
19:45:55 [JAllan]
ja: use case of person with low vision to need base font large, but if distenction scale with the base text, then the heading become too large. uses a different mechanism to render distinctions
19:46:19 [Kim]
The user can specify whether or not distinctions in the size of rendered text be resized when that text is rescaled (e.g. headers continue to be larger than body text)
19:46:42 [JAllan]
s/distenction/distinction
19:47:10 [jeanne]
1.4.2 (former 3.6.2) Preserving Size Distinctions: The user can specify that distinctions in the size of rendered text be preserved when that text is rescaled (e.g. headers continue to be larger than body text) within absolute limitations imposed by the platform. (Level A)
19:48:19 [JAllan]
The user can specify whether or not distinctions in the size of rendered text are preserved when that text is rescaled (e.g. headers continue to be larger than body text)
19:48:25 [jeanne]
1.4.2 (former 3.6.2) Preserving Size Distinctions: The user can specify whether or not distinctions in the size of rendered text are preserved when that text is rescaled (e.g. headers continue to be larger than body text). (Level A)
19:48:37 [kford]
rrs agent, make minutes
19:48:48 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:48:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/09-ua-minutes.html kford
19:48:53 [JAllan]
Resolution: 1.4.2 is completed!!
19:52:57 [JAllan]
topic: 1.5.1 Global Volume: The user can independently adjust the volume of all audio tracks the user agent renders, relative to the global volume level set through operating environment mechanisms. However, if audio is muted at the global level the user agent should not override this unless the behavior is optional, not enabled by default, and the user is cautioned as to its implications....
19:52:59 [JAllan]
...(e.g. the alarm clock application on a mobile device has an option to play the alarm even if the system is muted, provided the check box is normally unchecked and is accompanied by text cautioning the user about this behavior. (Level A)
19:54:04 [JAllan]
ja: seems a bunch of this should be in implementing.
19:54:44 [JAllan]
js: this is an open action, is a combining of old 3.7.1 and .2
19:56:10 [jeanne]
However, if audio is
19:56:10 [jeanne]
<jeanne> muted as the global level the user agent should not override
19:56:10 [jeanne]
this unless the behavior is optional, not enabled by default, and the
19:56:10 [jeanne]
user is cautioned as to its implications. (e.g. the alarm clock
19:56:10 [jeanne]
application on a mobile device has an option to play the alarm even if
19:56:11 [jeanne]
the system is muted
19:56:40 [JAllan]
kp: do we have to say "user agent renders"
19:56:47 [JAllan]
jr: +1
19:59:11 [Jan]
However, user agent should only override a global mute when the user has explitly requested this and has been cautioned about the implications.
19:59:26 [Kim]
The user can independently adjust the volume of all audio tracks relative to the global volume level set through operating environment mechanisms. However, if audio is muted at the global level the user agent should not override this unless the behavior is optional, not enabled by default, and the user is cautioned as to its implications. (e.g. the alarm clock application on a mobile device...
19:59:28 [Kim]
...has an option to play the alarm even if the system is muted.)
19:59:59 [Jan]
However, the user agent may only override a global mute when on explicit user requested has the user has been cautioned about the implication.
20:00:28 [Jan]
However, the user agent may only override a global mute on explicit user request and the user has been cautioned about the implication.
20:00:36 [JAllan]
The user can independently adjust the volume of all audio tracks relative to the global volume level set through operating environment mechanisms. However, the user agent may only override a global mute on explicit user request and the user has been cautioned about the implication.
20:00:42 [sharper]
+1
20:00:54 [JAllan]
+1
20:01:08 [Jan]
However, the user agent may only override a global mute on explicit user request and if the user has been cautioned about the implication.
20:01:22 [Kim]
+1
20:01:36 [kford]
+1
20:01:42 [JAllan]
The user can independently adjust the volume of all audio tracks relative to the global volume level set through operating environment mechanisms. However, the user agent may only override a global mute on explicit user request and if the user has been cautioned about the implication.
20:02:45 [JAllan]
Resolution: GL 1.5 is completed!!
20:03:26 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-UAAG20-20101109/MasterUAAG20101109.html
20:03:31 [JAllan]
topic: 1.6.1 Speech Rate and Volume: The user can set in synthesized speech, overriding any values specified by the author (Level A):
20:05:52 [JAllan]
for synthesized speech The user can set, overriding any values specified by the author
20:06:55 [JAllan]
jr: applicability notes, yes the author can override author settings.
20:07:37 [JAllan]
... a section at the start of the document, (WCAG conditions of conformance), things that apply to all guidelines.
20:07:52 [JAllan]
kp: 'the user can set
20:08:02 [JAllan]
... implies overriding
20:08:54 [JAllan]
kf: why is this here, for talking brouwsers?
20:09:13 [JAllan]
s/brouwsers/browsers
20:09:54 [JAllan]
... author does not set this, how can a user override it
20:11:13 [JAllan]
jr: for speech this is like changing text scale
20:11:38 [JAllan]
the user can set the following for synthesized speech
20:13:49 [JAllan]
resolution: 1.6.1, 1.6.2, 1.6.3 are completed!!!
20:14:26 [JAllan]
topic: 1.6.4 The following speech features are provided (Level AA): (a) user-defined extensions to the synthesized speech dictionary, (b) "spell-out", where text is spelled one character at a time, or according to language-dependent pronunciation rules, (c) at least two ways of speaking numerals: one where numerals are spoken as individual digits and punctuation (e.g. "one two zero three...
20:14:28 [JAllan]
...point five" for 1203.5 or "one comma two zero three point five" for 1,203.5), and and one where full number are spoken (e.g. "one thousand, two hundred and three point five"). (d) at least two ways of speaking punctuation: one where punctuation is spoken literally, and one where punctuation is rendered as natural pauses.
20:16:35 [JAllan]
jr: questions the usecase, implementation of these
20:16:54 [JAllan]
kp: why 2 ways of reading numbers
20:17:14 [JAllan]
... user should specify the way it can read numbers.
20:17:35 [JAllan]
kf: assume talking browser...
20:18:02 [JAllan]
kp: oh, thinking speech out vs speech in
20:18:41 [JAllan]
*** 10 min break ***
20:38:33 [Kim]
topic: 1.6.4
20:38:35 [jeanne]
1.6.4 (former 3.8.4) Speech Features: The following text to speech features are provided: (Level AA)
20:39:25 [jeanne]
1.6.4 (former 3.8.4) Text to Speech Features: The following features are provided: (Level AA)
20:43:02 [jeanne]
1.6.4 (former 3.8.4) Synthesized Speech Features: For synthesized speech, the following features are provided: (Level AA)
20:46:36 [JAllan]
editors note about treatment of currency
20:46:50 [kford]
Action: kford to ensure implementing doc addresses currency for 1.6.4.
20:46:50 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - kford
20:47:01 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
20:47:59 [JAllan]
ja: is number speaking hard coded in the synthesizer.
20:48:56 [jeanne]
+1
20:49:41 [JAllan]
Resolution: 1.6.4 is complete, all of GL 1.6 is completed!!
20:50:03 [JAllan]
topic: 1.7.1 Author Style Sheets: If the author has supplied one or more style sheets, the user has the following options (Level A):
20:52:06 [JAllan]
if one or more author style sheets are supplied....
20:52:08 [jeanne]
action: JS to review document with Kim to adjust all verb tenses to present tense.
20:52:08 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-465 - Review document with Kim to adjust all verb tenses to present tense. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-11-16].
20:52:43 [JAllan]
1.7.1 if one or more author style sheets are supplied the user has the following options:
20:53:26 [JAllan]
kf +1
20:53:29 [JAllan]
ja +1
20:54:32 [Greg]
Should "select a style sheet" be "select a style sheet to be applied"?
20:55:19 [JAllan]
select and apply a style sheet
20:56:06 [JAllan]
start at 11 eastern
20:58:43 [JAllan]
gl: can the user apply more that one style sheet simultaneously
20:59:46 [JAllan]
kp: for accessibility may want more than one.
21:00:06 [Greg]
Consider saying something like "if..." the user has the option to select none, one or more style sheets to be applied", e.g. one user style sheet that makes all text large, another that highlights the active element, etc.
21:00:07 [JAllan]
kf: most people don't know that style sheets exist
21:00:38 [JAllan]
kp: select and apply 1 or more style sheets
21:01:19 [jeanne]
(a) select and apply one or more style sheets, or
21:01:27 [JAllan]
kf: should be in best practices or implementation document
21:01:37 [JAllan]
+1
21:03:05 [Greg]
I think we want to move to the future where people can create and distribute special-purpose user style sheets, and they can be used together.
21:05:04 [JAllan]
kp: like defined vs supplied
21:05:44 [jeanne]
+1
21:06:00 [JAllan]
1.7.1 if one or more author style sheets are defined the user has the following options:
21:06:26 [JAllan]
a. select and apply one or more style sheets
21:06:33 [JAllan]
b. turn off style sheets
21:07:22 [mhakkinen]
viewport or output medium?
21:07:26 [JAllan]
gl: wants user to be able to use print style sheet on the screen
21:08:05 [JAllan]
kf: current browsers allow user to select from all available.
21:09:09 [Greg]
I think the wording does not require the user agent to allow the user to select a style sheet for a different output medium (e.g. using a print style sheet on the screen); it could just let the user select from style sheets for the current medium. Is that intentional?
21:13:43 [JAllan]
http://www.jimthatcher.com/
21:17:35 [Greg]
A solution might be "a) select and apply one from all available style sheets". Not great but close.
21:17:41 [mhakkinen]
suggestion: select and apply one or more available styles available for the current viewport.
21:18:55 [Greg]
Another example is where today you sometimes can't take advantage of a simplified presentation on the screen, only in print.
21:19:36 [JAllan]
use case: cognitive issues. want to print the page with out the print style sheet. if print style sheet is used the paper copy looks different from the screen copy and I am confused
21:20:47 [Greg]
Another wording option would be "a) select and apply one or more available style sheets, regardless of target medium"
21:21:47 [Greg]
Style sheets for another medium might be better as lower priority.
21:22:10 [JAllan]
FF shows style sheets in form <link rel...> but does not show @import style sheets to the user
21:22:43 [JAllan]
1.7.1 if one or more author style sheets are defined the user has the following options: a. select and apply one or more style sheets b. turn off style sheets
21:23:27 [Greg]
Should be "b) turn off author style sheets"
21:24:05 [JAllan]
+1
21:24:20 [Kim]
+1
21:24:25 [JAllan]
1.7.1 if one or more author style sheets are defined the user has the following options: a. select and apply one or more style sheets b) turn off author style sheets
21:24:41 [Greg]
I don't like but can live with the (a).
21:25:23 [jeanne]
a) select and apply one or more available style sheets, regardless of target medium"
21:26:49 [jeanne]
User Style Sheets: If one or more user style sheets are defined, the user has the following options: (Level A)
21:26:49 [jeanne]
(a) select a style sheet, or
21:26:49 [jeanne]
(b) turn off user style sheets.
21:27:31 [Greg]
Except aren't we making the same as 1.7.1, "select and apply on user style sheet"?
21:27:36 [jeanne]
select and apply one or more style sheets, or
21:29:11 [JAllan]
resolution: 1.7.1 and 1.7.2 are completed!!!
21:29:33 [jeanne]
1.7.1 (former 3.9.1) Author Style Sheets: If one or more author style sheets are defined, the user has the following options: (Level A)
21:29:33 [jeanne]
(a) select and apply one or more author style sheets, or
21:29:33 [jeanne]
(b) turn off author style sheets.
21:29:33 [jeanne]
1.7.2 (former 3.9.2) User Style Sheets: If one or more user style sheets are defined, the user has the following options: (Level A)
21:29:33 [mhakkinen]
Finland signing off... see you tomorrow.
21:29:34 [jeanne]
(a) select and apply one or more user style sheets, or
21:29:36 [jeanne]
(b) turn off user style sheets.
21:29:54 [JAllan]
topic: 1.8.1 Highlight Viewport: The viewport with the input focus (including nested viewports and their containers) is highlighted, and the user is able to customize attributes of the highlighted mechanism, including, but not limited to, shape, size, stroke width, color, and blink rate (if any). (Level A)
21:31:16 [JAllan]
kf: if the SC are individually testable, why do we have 'and' in them. that is 2 items to test
21:32:00 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
21:32:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/09-ua-minutes.html jeanne
21:32:13 [JAllan]
gl: earlier suggested combining where possible. but easier to test if no 'and'
21:32:43 [JAllan]
... then SC have to cross reference each other which makes reading difficult to parse.
21:36:51 [jeanne]
1.8.1 needs attention
21:37:25 [JAllan]
resolution: 1.8.1 needs attention - needs rewording
21:38:05 [jeanne]
issue: 1.8.1 needs attention - confusing and meaning is unclear.
21:38:05 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-78 - 1.8.1 needs attention - confusing and meaning is unclear. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/78/edit .
21:38:39 [JAllan]
topic: 1.8.2 Move Viewport to Selection and Focus: When a viewport's selection or input focus changes, the viewport moves as necessary to ensure that the new selection or input focus location is at least partially in the viewport. (Level A)
21:38:55 [Greg]
Technically "in the viewport" should be "in the visible portion of the viewport"
21:39:56 [Greg]
I wish there was a concise term for "the visible portion of the viewport".
21:40:03 [kford]
Issue: Need a consise term forvisible portion of viewport.
21:40:03 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-79 - Need a consise term forvisible portion of viewport. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/79/edit .
21:40:27 [JAllan]
Move Viewport to Selection and Focus: When a viewport's selection or input focus changes, the viewport moves as necessary to ensure that the new selection or input focus location is at least partially in the visible portion of the viewport.
21:41:13 [Greg]
Similarly, there's the question of whether "the viewport moves" means "the viewport pans or scrolls" or "the visible portion of the viewport is moved".
21:42:12 [JAllan]
Resolution: 1.8.2 is completed!!
21:42:33 [JAllan]
topic: 1.8.3 Resizable: The user has the option to make graphical viewports resizable, within the limits of the display, overriding any values specified by the author.
21:43:53 [Greg]
Should "within the limits of the display" be "up to the size of the display"?
21:44:04 [JAllan]
kf: graphical viewport seems odd, do we use it anywhere else?
21:44:14 [JAllan]
... 1.8.4 ... lots of places
21:44:25 [JAllan]
kp: needs to be here
21:45:15 [Greg]
If we took that phrase out "within the limits of the display/up to the size of the display" woud it really change anything?
21:47:07 [Greg]
Would user agents ever let you resize a window or viewport smaller but not larger?
21:48:10 [JAllan]
resolution: 1.8.3 is completed!!
21:48:28 [JAllan]
topic: 1.8.4 Scrollbars: Graphical viewports include scrollbars if the rendered content (including after user preferences have been applied) extends beyond the viewport dimensions, overriding any values specified by the author.
21:49:31 [JAllan]
gl: would like to postpone discussion of 1.8.4 till later
21:50:53 [JAllan]
issue: talk about 1.8.4 later, greg to create clarification
21:50:53 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-80 - Talk about 1.8.4 later, greg to create clarification ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/80/edit .
21:51:11 [JAllan]
topic: 1.8.5 Viewport History: If the user agent maintains a viewport history mechanism (e.g., via the "back button") that stores previous "viable" states (i.e., that have not been negated by the content, user agent settings or user agent extensions). It maintains information about the page and embedded controls, including viewport scrolling, selection and keyboard focus. It restores the...
21:51:13 [JAllan]
...saved values when the user returns to a state in the history.
21:52:05 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
21:52:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/09-ua-minutes.html jeanne
21:52:17 [jeanne]
zakim, bye
21:52:17 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
21:52:21 [JAllan]
kudos to JEANNE!!!
21:52:35 [jeanne]
rrsagent, bye
21:52:35 [RRSAgent]
I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/09-ua-actions.rdf :
21:52:35 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Greg figure out and or create SC for content reflow. [1]
21:52:35 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/09-ua-irc#T17-26-23
21:52:35 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to review document with Kim to insure that scope of Global vs. individual is correct for each SC. [2]
21:52:35 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/09-ua-irc#T19-34-39
21:52:35 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: kford to ensure implementing doc addresses currency for 1.6.4. [3]
21:52:35 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/09-ua-irc#T20-46-50
21:52:35 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to review document with Kim to adjust all verb tenses to present tense. [4]
21:52:35 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/09-ua-irc#T20-52-08