IRC log of sparql on 2010-11-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:57:00 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #sparql
14:57:00 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/09-sparql-irc
14:57:02 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:57:04 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 77277
14:57:04 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:57:05 [trackbot]
Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
14:57:05 [trackbot]
Date: 09 November 2010
14:57:09 [LeeF]
zakim, this will be SPARQL
14:57:09 [Zakim]
ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:57:22 [LeeF]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-11-09
14:57:24 [LeeF]
Chair: LeeF
14:58:00 [LeeF]
Regrets: Axel, Alex, Ivan, bglimm, NickH, Olivier, SteveH
14:58:08 [LeeF]
uggh, wonder if it's worth meeting at all
14:58:08 [Zakim]
SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
14:58:28 [pgearon_]
well, I'm here :-)
14:58:48 [pgearon]
pgearon has left #sparql
14:58:50 [kasei]
we should make decisions on all remaining issues and call it a day :)
14:58:57 [LeeF]
:D
14:59:23 [LeeF]
zakim, why are you ignoring me?
14:59:23 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, LeeF.
14:59:47 [kasei]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:59:47 [Zakim]
On the phone I see no one
14:59:54 [LeeF]
zakim, you are not helpful
14:59:54 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'you are not helpful', LeeF
15:00:00 [LeeF]
+LeeF
15:00:04 [LeeF]
+pgearon
15:00:05 [LeeF]
+kasei
15:00:14 [LeeF]
Present: pgearon, kasei, LeeF
15:00:59 [AndyS]
zakim, where are you?
15:01:00 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, AndyS.
15:01:37 [LeeF]
Present+ AndyS
15:01:48 [Souri]
Souri has joined #sparql
15:01:56 [cbuilara]
me
15:02:18 [LeeF]
Present +cbuilara
15:02:36 [LeeF]
Present +souri
15:04:23 [AndyS]
scribenick: AndyS
15:04:28 [AndyS]
Scribe: Andy Seaborne
15:04:28 [cbuilara]
I will add my self to the scribe list
15:04:38 [LeeF]
topic: Admin
15:04:39 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-11-02
15:04:39 [AndyS]
Topic: Admin
15:05:57 [LeeF]
RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-11-02
15:06:18 [LeeF]
Next regular meeting: 2010-11-16 @ 15:00 UK / 10:00 EST (Scribe: Chime with NickH as backup)
15:06:34 [LeeF]
Regrets next week: LeeF
15:06:59 [AndyS]
Partial meeting due to ISWC
15:07:02 [LeeF]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/16
15:09:00 [kasei]
q+
15:09:07 [LeeF]
ack kasei
15:09:51 [AndyS]
Consensus emerging around text in doc : e.g. strict sum using op:numeric-add
15:10:20 [AndyS]
q+
15:10:51 [AndyS]
q-
15:10:54 [LeeF]
for next week: PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-16 by noting that aggregates define their semantics over mixed data types which can include errors, errors that propagate to a SELECT list result in an unbound variable, errors that propagate to GROUP BY clause result in an "unbound" key
15:11:09 [AndyS]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/query-1.1/rq25.xml#setFunctions
15:12:04 [LeeF]
AndyS: formal section will say that syntax -> algebra is 3 steps (instead of current 2)
15:12:08 [LeeF]
... graph patterns, grouping, solution modifiers
15:12:42 [LeeF]
... grouping works over multisets, solution modifiers work over sequences
15:16:04 [pgearon]
+q
15:16:22 [LeeF]
ACTION: Lee to review the text that contributes to the proposed resolution of ISSUE-16
15:16:22 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-332 - Review the text that contributes to the proposed resolution of ISSUE-16 [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2010-11-16].
15:16:24 [AndyS]
ack pgearon
15:16:27 [LeeF]
ack pgearon
15:16:49 [AndyS]
pgearon: Q about differing types for sum:
15:17:53 [AndyS]
LeeF: defn using op:numeric-add => error to add non-number.
15:18:22 [AndyS]
... when used in SELECT expressions erro=> unbound (extend operator)
15:19:38 [pgearon]
q-
15:19:48 [LeeF]
pgearon: not clear from text what happens when an error is encountered midway through a SUM evaluation
15:20:17 [LeeF]
topic: update shortcuts
15:20:18 [LeeF]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/update-1.1/shortcuts.xml
15:21:12 [AndyS]
LeeF; concerns at shortcuts this early in life of SPARQL 1.1
15:22:14 [AndyS]
LeeF: Shortcuts: ADD, MOVE, COPY
15:22:39 [kasei]
I'm mildly opposed to the shortcuts. Same concerns as LeeF.
15:22:44 [AndyS]
... analogs of the file operations and similar to REST operations.
15:22:46 [Souri]
ADD => is the semantics like a MERGE? b/c we may have duplicates
15:22:56 [Souri]
q+
15:23:01 [LeeF]
ack Souri
15:24:18 [AndyS]
Strawpoll:
15:24:26 [LeeF]
straw poll on proposed ADD/COPY/MOVE update shortcuts (+1/0/-1):
15:24:31 [AndyS]
+1
15:24:32 [LeeF]
-1
15:24:33 [kasei]
-1
15:24:33 [Souri]
+1
15:24:34 [pgearon]
0
15:25:25 [cbuilara]
+1
15:26:24 [Souri]
q+
15:26:40 [LeeF]
LeeF: I am motivated a bit by hearing positive implementation and usage experience from AndyS
15:26:43 [LeeF]
ack Souri
15:27:23 [LeeF]
Souri: easier to spot optimizations for the shortcut operations
15:28:00 [LeeF]
summary: slight preference in today's group for including shortcuts - motivation is ease of use of language, ease of optimization
15:28:17 [LeeF]
topic: grouping by expressions
15:28:27 [AndyS]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0187.html
15:28:45 [LeeF]
(btw, the last conversation dealt with ISSUE-59)
15:29:22 [AndyS]
(no issue for the issue of GROUP BY expression)
15:29:40 [AndyS]
LeeF summzry/proposal possibilities: 0187
15:29:45 [AndyS]
LeeF summary/proposal possibilities: 0187
15:30:23 [AndyS]
... WG wanted to do in principle - mechanism postponed last time.
15:31:00 [LeeF]
option 1 - To project grouping expressions, use BIND to alias the expression to
15:31:00 [LeeF]
a variable and then GROUP BY and project that variable (as above).
15:31:25 [LeeF]
option 2 - Include an AS aliasing mechanism in GROUP BY, allow that alias to be
15:31:25 [LeeF]
projected in the SELECT clause
15:32:34 [AndyS]
Discussion around opt 2 and opt 1.
15:32:49 [LeeF]
q?
15:32:59 [AndyS]
SteveH noted wish for if opt 2, then allow no AS form as well.
15:33:00 [Souri]
q+
15:33:07 [LeeF]
ack Souri
15:33:48 [AndyS]
Souri: Q about BIND and GROUP BY
15:33:55 [LeeF]
SELECT ... ?x ... WHERE { .... BIND ( ?x AS expr ) } GROUP BY ?x
15:34:18 [kasei]
that BIND is backwards, no?
15:34:25 [LeeF]
SELECT ... ?x ... WHERE { .... } GROUP BY (expr AS ?x)
15:34:39 [LeeF]
should have been BIND ( expr AS ?x )
15:35:51 [AndyS]
SELECT .... WHERE { .... } GROUP BY (expr AS ?x)
15:36:00 [AndyS]
SELECT .... WHERE { .... } GROUP BY (expr)
15:36:44 [LeeF]
(general consensus against _requiring_ alias when grouping by expressions)
15:36:59 [LeeF]
straw poll: allow option 2 (include AS aliasing in GROUP BY syntax) (+1/0/-1)
15:37:49 [LeeF]
straw poll: allow option 2 (include expressions and AS aliasing in GROUP BY syntax) (+1/0/-1)
15:37:58 [kasei]
+1
15:38:00 [LeeF]
0
15:38:04 [AndyS]
+1
15:38:13 [Souri]
+1
15:38:20 [cbuilara]
0
15:38:25 [pgearon]
0
15:39:43 [LeeF]
for next week: PROPOSED: The GROUP BY clause can include expressions with or without AS aliases. These aliases can be re-used in the HAVING clause and query result clause
15:39:46 [pgearon]
I don't see the need for it when a BIND in the WHERE clause will work just as well. But I don't have a particular problem with it, so I voted 0 instead of -1
15:39:48 [AndyS]
leeF: is teh ?x usable in HAVING?
15:39:51 [AndyS]
AndyS; yes
15:40:00 [Souri]
q+
15:40:10 [AndyS]
Topic: Function library
15:40:29 [LeeF]
ack souri
15:42:10 [AndyS]
group - extend - having
15:43:00 [AndyS]
LeeF: will discuss in full group
15:43:06 [pgearon]
+q
15:43:11 [LeeF]
ack pgearon
15:45:39 [kasei]
also, specifying an algorithm would prevent implementations from doing something better (like sourcing from random.org :)
15:45:41 [pgearon]
-q
15:46:25 [pgearon]
I'd prefer not to see a specified algorithm, but I wanted to raise it because it results in an untestable feature
15:46:41 [AndyS]
Topic: test cases
15:46:44 [kasei]
I believe I'm passing all the non-entailment tests right now
15:47:00 [AndyS]
LeeF: need to keep building test case materials
15:47:09 [AndyS]
... but currently on track
15:47:41 [AndyS]
ADJOURNED
15:53:29 [Zakim]
SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
15:53:31 [Zakim]
Attendees were
15:54:12 [AndyS]
Attendees: LeeF, Souri, pgearon, kasei, cbuilara, AndyS
15:54:30 [AndyS]
but not zakim.
16:29:17 [SteveH]
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SteveH has joined #sparql