08:30:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
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08:30:15 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
08:30:17 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
08:30:17 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
08:30:18 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
08:30:18 <trackbot> Date: 05 November 2010
08:30:25 <anthony> scribe: anthony
08:30:29 <anthony> scribeNick: anthony
08:30:34 <anthony> chair: Erik
08:31:02 <adrianba> Present: Doug, Erik, Krisk, anthony, Adrian
08:31:18 <ed> Zakim, remind me in 8 hours about whatever
08:31:18 <Zakim> ok, ed
08:31:22 <adrianba> Present+ Patrick
08:31:26 <anthony> Present+ Jun
08:31:40 <adrianba> minutes of html wg testing tf -> http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-minutes.html#item04
08:31:54 <anthony> Topic: Testing Strategies and Guidelines
08:32:25 <anthony> AB: Above is the link to HTML WG discussion on testing
08:32:47 <anthony> ... The discussion started with a description of the process we have been following
08:32:55 <anthony> ... how people submit tests
08:32:59 <anthony> ... someone reviews them
08:33:07 <anthony> ... similar to SVG process
08:33:15 <anthony> ... discussion on what tests have been submitted so far
08:33:22 <anthony> ... currently organised by feature area
08:33:27 <anthony> ... folders for each feature
08:33:43 <anthony> ... goal of that was to avoid problems that happened in CSS where tests where
08:33:51 <anthony> s/where/were/
08:33:56 <anthony> ... tied to parts of the spec
08:34:04 <anthony> ... makes it difficult to change parts of the spec
08:34:10 <anthony> ... They spoke about ref tests
08:34:13 <anthony> ... and harnesses
08:34:21 <anthony> ... it turns out there wont be a single harness
08:34:28 <anthony> ... there may be several
08:34:36 <anthony> ... There was discussion about templates
08:34:52 <anthony> ... There'll be an inventory test file
08:34:56 <anthony> ... that lists all the tests
08:35:05 <anthony> ... and what the type the test is
08:35:13 <anthony> ... and any extra data required to run the tests
08:35:25 <anthony> ... that way people can build their own harness if they like
08:35:38 <anthony> ... One of the other goals was that some people had
08:35:45 <anthony> ... was the granularity of the tests
08:36:01 <anthony> ... whether to have one test per file
08:36:21 <anthony> ... or to have a test that tests a whole range of different things
08:36:55 <anthony> ... There is a balance of how many assertions you should have in a test file
08:37:06 <anthony> ... Common sense approach
08:37:15 <anthony> ... if you see a test with lots of assertions
08:37:19 <anthony> ... then it may need to be change
08:37:35 <anthony> ... it will come down to the group consensus
08:37:41 <anthony> DS: Probably a good balance
08:37:53 <anthony> ... will be grouping tests
08:38:02 <anthony> ... according to similar features
08:38:20 <anthony> AB: There was an upper bound of features
08:38:26 <anthony> ... that you wouldn't want to test in a single test file
08:38:30 <anthony> ... the definition of what's a feature
08:38:34 <anthony> ... is a bit vague
08:38:44 <anthony> DS: When you're talking about scripted interfaces
08:38:49 <anthony> ... All the interfaces of an element
08:38:59 <anthony> ... might be a particular good way to go
08:39:09 <anthony> AB: Have a number of tests of get element by class name
08:39:21 <anthony> ... would make sense to bundle those together
08:39:27 <anthony> KK: Depends on how deep you want to go
08:40:02 <anthony> ... different APIs are more interesting
08:40:33 <anthony> ... some methods need more in depth testing
08:40:36 <anthony> DS: Point taken
08:40:47 <anthony> ... May want to tests more variations
08:41:02 <anthony> KK: Good start is one test for every method
08:41:05 <anthony> ... that's a good coverage
08:41:16 <anthony> AB: The next thing people talked about was
08:41:32 <anthony> ... the difference between manual and automatic test
08:41:40 <anthony> ... If it is possible to do an automated test
08:41:43 <anthony> ... then it should be done that way
08:41:57 <anthony> PD: Does that include static visual comparison?
08:42:08 <anthony> KK: Had agreement that static content was visual
08:42:14 <anthony> ... that there is a page with the reference
08:42:22 <anthony> DS: You familiar with the SVG framework
08:42:25 <anthony> KK: No
08:42:37 <anthony> KK: The motivation is that, my point of view
08:42:49 <anthony> ... the browser vendors have some information they can use there
08:43:04 <anthony> ... there is a set of canvas tests that are rendering specific
08:43:08 <anthony> ... but don't have reference tests
08:43:14 <anthony> ... but they are able to use them
08:43:29 <anthony> AB: So then we had some discussion about hosting the tests
08:43:35 <anthony> ... on the test.w3.org
08:43:53 <anthony> ... there are some tests that require a server side element to them
08:44:00 <anthony> ... for example form submission
08:44:07 <anthony> ... you need to check what submitted is the correct thing
08:44:16 <anthony> ... and there was some discussion on how that would work
08:44:26 <anthony> KK: For example if you're going to test cookies
08:44:31 <anthony> ... or header of HTML page
08:44:42 <anthony> ... want to change the header of cookies
08:44:52 <anthony> ... which  by default is not an option
08:45:01 <anthony> AB: One thing which my apply to SVG
08:45:13 <anthony> ... is the ability to send the information slowly
08:45:22 <anthony> DS: Right, for resource doesn't come through
08:45:33 <anthony> ... we talked this briefly in the web apps working group
08:45:44 <anthony> ... for tests that need special server configuration
08:45:53 <anthony> ... we need to let the systems team well ahead
08:46:03 <anthony> ... we are testing these features
08:46:14 <anthony> ... if we are going to have tests which are going to run server side tests
08:46:25 <anthony> ... then they need to review that for performance and security
08:46:43 <anthony> ... W3C and the systems team will accommodate these tests
08:46:49 <anthony> ... just need to be careful
08:46:54 <anthony> ... we just need to get in early
08:47:13 <anthony> AB: People supported the idea of sharing these server side scripts
08:47:24 <anthony> ... with other working groups
08:47:31 <anthony> ... reduces the effort required by systems team
08:48:11 <anthony> ... will avoid duplication and if you can create a test that uses existing script
08:48:25 <anthony> KK:  Because the cost is so high
08:48:39 <anthony> AB: It was about people not having to waste time to create another test
08:48:46 <anthony> ... around that frame structure
08:49:34 <anthony> DS: We want a cohesive web platform
08:50:03 <anthony> ... Adobe made something similar to XHR which was post XHR but before it was standardised
08:50:39 <anthony> ... that's the sort of problem we can avoid by adopting a technology
08:50:58 <anthony> KK: If you take a bet on a bleeding edge as your tests, you may get burned down the road?
08:51:11 <anthony> DS: I'm taking about having tests as part of the specification process
08:51:29 <anthony> ... there a some subtle things that tests will show up
08:51:42 <anthony> ... what I'm saying is since we'll be looking at tests
08:51:49 <anthony> ... we get a sanity check on the features
08:51:53 <anthony> ... we should document that
08:52:00 <anthony> ... in some obvious place
08:52:07 <anthony> ... so people can reproduce that
08:52:22 <anthony> ... maybe someone might find a flaw and help us correct it
08:52:48 <anthony> .... W3C is examining what the role of tests are in the group
08:53:03 <anthony> ... we don't want to do ISO conformance tests
08:54:09 <anthony> KK: My point of view is that, if working group create a lot of tests
08:54:12 <anthony> ... we run into these issues
08:54:15 <anthony> ... in terms of scale
08:54:31 <anthony> ... Paul says that XQuery had 18,000 cases, which is a lot of tests
08:54:41 <anthony> ... so if working groups start to create a lot of tests
08:54:47 <anthony> ... these are problems that will come up
08:54:53 <anthony> PD: Problems?
08:54:55 <anthony> KK: Scale
08:55:10 <anthony> ... the SVG tests are about 4-500 you read the description
08:55:11 <anthony> ... and run it
08:55:14 <anthony> ... it's not a big deal
08:55:38 <anthony> PD: My question is interoperability the goal or testing the goal?
08:55:48 <anthony> DS: Our tests are simply to test the spec
08:55:54 <anthony> ... to test the spec is implementable
08:56:04 <anthony> ... W3C is looking at how we can best serve the web
08:56:57 <anthony> ... All I'm saying we don't know where we go with the tests, but it looks like we are expanding the role of tests
08:57:36 <anthony> PD: I'm trying to figure out the size of those
08:57:41 <anthony> ... the level of coverage we want
08:57:45 <anthony> ... how much coverage
08:57:54 <anthony> ... maybe we just got to figure out where we want to go
08:58:16 <anthony> AB: I think we need the coverage to ensure the spec has interoperability
08:58:28 <anthony> ... The one other thing we had a discussion about
08:58:34 <anthony> ... was the approval process
08:58:46 <anthony> ... this really is on point on the discussion on size and scale
08:58:52 <anthony> ... as the number of tests grows
08:59:16 <anthony> ... the burden on the working group to review the tests
08:59:18 <anthony> ... increase
08:59:26 <anthony> ... because it is more work to review the tests then create it
08:59:43 <anthony> ... and there was discussion about ways to short cut the process
08:59:58 <anthony> ... for example if all the implementations pass the test and it's worng
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09:00:06 <anthony> ... then it may mean that the spec should change
09:00:15 <anthony> DS: We've run into this in the past
09:00:21 <anthony> ... where we've found bugs in the spec
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09:00:29 <anthony> ... because of the tests we were writing
09:00:37 <anthony> ... we understood the intent
09:00:45 <anthony> ... that's one of the benefits of early testing
09:01:02 <anthony> PD: One thing about developing early is aligning tests with a set of statements in the spec
09:01:30 <shepazu> A Method for Writing Testable Conformance Clauses and its Applications -> http://dev.w3.org/2008/dev-ind-testing/extracting-test-assertions-pub.html
09:01:31 <anthony> AB: That was discussed briefly in HTML and people concluded that they wouldn't try to associate specific sections of the spec
09:01:54 <anthony> ... it is often convenient to look at different parts of the spec for a test
09:02:23 <anthony> PD: I'm talking more about having a rejection process rather than an acception process
09:02:31 <anthony> AB: That's sort of the opposite end of the scale
09:02:57 <anthony> ... assuming that the test is right until otherwise stated was also talked about
09:03:10 <anthony> ... the problem with that model is you have a test suite of uncertain quality
09:03:18 <anthony> ... which is the purpose of the test suite
09:03:25 <anthony> ... is to test the quality of the spec
09:03:30 <anthony> ... The other thing that people said
09:03:41 <anthony> ... if you start by saying that if all implementations pass
09:03:46 <anthony> ... and spec is wrong
09:03:51 <anthony> ... what if 3 out of 4 pass
09:03:56 <anthony> ... and 4th one does what the spec says
09:04:03 <anthony> ... and the test is wrong compared to the spec
09:04:07 <anthony> ... how does that work
09:04:14 <anthony> ... and that is really where we left the discussion
09:04:25 <anthony> ... is 3 out of 4 a good metric to pass the test
09:04:38 <anthony> PD: We've come across that before as well
09:04:49 <anthony> KK: Even if it s approved
09:04:57 <anthony> ... there will be motivation to investigate that
09:05:06 <anthony> ... someone will check the test and spec
09:05:18 <anthony> ... the reality is the cost doesn't scale at all
09:05:31 <anthony> ... and it effects things in a bad way
09:05:57 <anthony> PD: Was there is there any discussion about adding resources from interest groups?
09:06:14 <anthony> KK: People say 150,000 tests, but we'll see what happens right
09:06:18 <anthony> ... it takes time to make tests
09:06:26 <anthony> ... hopefully everyone contributes tests
09:06:38 <anthony> ... I think that's just peoples guess about number of tests
09:06:48 <anthony> DS: You could probably do a density test
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09:07:07 <anthony> ... about conformance tests per page or assertion
09:07:15 <anthony> PD: It's where they cross boundaries
09:07:44 <anthony> ... and that's where the interoperability is
09:08:07 <anthony> DS: I thought it might worth while automating this
09:08:14 <anthony> ... and get the community to help review tests
09:08:23 <anthony> ... set up an infrastructure
09:08:35 <anthony> ... we're looking at how people can be part of W3C
09:08:44 <anthony> ... if we can crowd source in test review
09:08:49 <anthony> ... by providing incentives
09:08:59 <anthony> ... I think the percentage of people that would want to do this
09:09:02 <anthony> ... is small
09:09:07 <anthony> ... because a lot of the time
09:09:18 <anthony> ... people will look at tests for tutorials
09:09:34 <anthony> ... for people doing development they are already looking at these tests
09:09:41 <anthony> ... so in a way they are reviewing them
09:09:56 <anthony> ... if a lot of people say this test is wrong
09:10:00 <anthony> ... then we should look at it
09:10:09 <anthony> ... and there's the opposite end of the scale
09:10:16 <anthony> PD: I think the benefit is huge
09:10:23 <anthony> ... is this goal or actual?
09:10:48 <anthony> DS: We didn't get much interest from the browser vendors when we looked at this last year
09:11:00 <anthony> ... but my idea was to set up a portal for people to submit tests
09:11:19 <anthony> ... since we have a large community it is a way of overcoming the scaling problems
09:11:45 <anthony> ... This seems to be a good opportunity across the board
09:12:07 <anthony> PD: So now you have built this up in SVG and I think Erik seems to like it
09:12:23 <anthony> DB: One thing I wonder about is if you're trying to crowd source reviewing for tests
09:12:28 <anthony> ... what are you reviewing for?
09:12:38 <anthony> ... there are a number of different things you are reviewing for in tests
09:13:01 <anthony> ... this implementation is wrong, or the test is not testing things correctly
09:13:35 <anthony> ... Depending on what you're reviewing for I'm somewhat skeptical 
09:13:48 <anthony> ... because it takes a lot of energy to review correctly
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09:14:01 <anthony> DS: Each test could have a thread in forum
09:14:08 <anthony> ... for people to comment
09:14:28 <anthony> ... we want to interact as low as possible to begin with
09:15:08 <anthony> ... other people who know what they are doing can teach people
09:15:15 <anthony> ... and if many people say this test is wrong
09:15:25 <anthony> ... then it would be flagged
09:15:48 <anthony> PD: There are a number of people in the SVG community who examine the tests very well
09:16:19 <anthony> KK: I think crowd testing works if the work your asking for is simple
09:16:24 <anthony> ... complex things will not get done
09:17:15 <anthony> ... It'll required a lot of resources
09:17:56 <anthony> DS: Just seeing what goes on in the SVG community has lead me to believe this might work
09:18:08 <anthony> PD: Could be pilot in the SVG Working Group
09:18:53 <anthony> DS: All I'm saying is there are number of people in the community to probably have this run in a forum
09:19:03 <anthony> ... we might not get anything out of it
09:19:09 <anthony> ... or it might turn into something we didn't expect
09:19:18 <anthony> ... Patrick, you seemed to like the idea
09:19:24 <anthony> ... so maybe we could pilot it
09:20:05 <anthony> ED: We could test it to see
09:20:09 <anthony> ... if there is interest
09:20:45 <anthony> KK: What problem are you trying to solve?
09:20:57 <anthony> DS: Get more tests possibly, more so sanity checking of the test
09:21:08 <anthony> s/of the test/of the tests/
09:21:24 <anthony> ... There have been times where the test has gone through the review
09:21:53 <anthony> ... and then we've looked it later and said this test is wrong
09:23:04 <anthony> PD: John is going to help us get the transforms tests with help of Sandy and Anthony
09:24:08 <anthony> ACTION: Doug to Talk with Patrick and Erik about crowd sourcing test reviewing and figure out how to set it up
09:24:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2897 - Talk with Patrick and Erik about crowd sourcing test reviewing and figure out how to set it up [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-11-12].
09:24:39 <anthony> ED: Just curious about the strategy to take to write the tests
09:25:05 <anthony> AB: The web apps working group is looking at using what has been established by the HTML working group
09:25:12 <anthony> ED: I've looked at that
09:25:27 <anthony> ... and we are using the framework on two of the tests
09:26:01 <anthony> KK: The belief in the HTML working group is you can use these are reference tests
09:26:54 <anthony> ... I think SVG is really complicated in these requirements
09:27:00 <anthony> ... with the reference tests
09:27:19 <anthony> DS: Jonathan Watt has been looking at automating these tests as much as possible
09:27:29 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
09:27:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/05-svg-minutes.html adrianba
09:28:13 <anthony> ED: So we are already using things similar to ref tests
09:28:24 <anthony> KK: CSS also has similar things with their tests
09:28:34 <anthony> ... they have a hard time running the test suite
09:29:13 <anthony> PD: Do we have a way to create an automatic testing harness with Canvas
09:29:40 <anthony> DS: Where we are right now - we are working on tests for SVG 1.1 2nd edition
09:29:50 <anthony> ... just cleaning up the spec that came out in 2001
09:29:57 <ed> s/using things similar to ref tests/using techniques similar to ref tests in some of the tests/
09:30:11 <anthony> ... We have improved and included a lot of tests we had originally
09:30:23 <anthony> ... not to make work for ourselves than we can handle
09:30:36 <anthony> ... it's meant to get everyone up to speed
09:30:40 <anthony> ... and then move on
09:30:43 <anthony> ... for SVG 2
09:30:45 <anthony> ... for the modules
09:31:03 <anthony> ... we see a large benefit of using the HTML working group frame work
09:31:12 <anthony> ED: Is there a process for putting tests there?
09:31:19 <anthony> ... is that something we need to decide to do?
09:31:42 <anthony> DS: We would like to port our tests over that framework
09:31:58 <anthony> AG: So where do I stick the tests that we make for Transforms?
09:32:29 <anthony> KK: So the new tests would be made in mercurial
09:33:22 <anthony> PD: We should get a proposal on what the categories for the spec are
09:33:29 <anthony> ... here is a functional area
09:33:35 <anthony> ... that makes a complete scenario
09:33:56 <anthony> ... and agree that these are the features that are ok
09:34:26 <anthony> KK: If you want to do all the tests at the end you have to pick chapters
09:34:28 <anthony> ... if you're not
09:34:35 <anthony> ... you're going to have pick a feature
09:34:53 <anthony> PD: If you were to have tests on transforms
09:35:12 <anthony> ... would you have tests on different features, like transforms on video, shapes, etc
09:35:44 <anthony> AB: You say things like, in order to run these tests you need certain things to be implemented
09:36:06 <anthony> ... lets not try and branch out too much on the requirements
09:37:11 <anthony> KK: If you always try to keep your dependencies as low as possible then you don't run into risks
09:37:15 <anthony> ... then build up on it later
09:41:09 <pdengler> RESOLUTION: Anthony continues writing CSS Transforms spec with tests, works with JohnJ and Sandro from MSFT to add more tests to the Mercurial server.  In parallel, Doug, Erik and Patrick will explore sourcing resources through the community
09:41:57 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
09:41:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/05-svg-minutes.html adrianba
09:42:17 <pdengler> action: to: shepazu to start conversation with Simon Willison to understand how to kick start a wide sourcing project
09:42:17 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - to
09:42:25 <anthony> RESOLUTION: Anthony continues writing CSS Transforms spec with tests, works with JohnJ and Sandro from MSFT to add more tests to the Mercurial server.  In parallel, Doug, Erik and Patrick will explore sourcing resources through the community
09:42:30 <pdengler> action:shepazu to start conversation with Simon Willison to understand how to kick start a wide sourcing project
09:42:46 <pdengler> action: shepazu to start conversation with Simon Willison to understand how to kick start a wide sourcing project
09:42:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2898 - Start conversation with Simon Willison to understand how to kick start a wide sourcing project [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-11-12].
09:43:24 <anthony> DS: I think there is value in having people go from the spec to the tests and the tests to the spec
09:43:29 <anthony> AB: You're right it would be useful
09:43:39 <shepazu> A Method for Writing Testable Conformance Clauses and its Applications -> http://dev.w3.org/2008/dev-ind-testing/extracting-test-assertions-pub.html
09:43:42 <anthony> ... but the maintenance would be expensive
09:44:08 <anthony> DS: This is something that the widgets web apps group came up with this methodology
09:44:15 <anthony> ... so that you could easily mark up the spec
09:44:25 <anthony> ... so you could easily find testable assertions
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09:45:49 <anthony> AG: Done this with compositing
09:45:50 <anthony> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/compositing/master/Overview.html
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09:46:26 <anthony> DS: I wasn't suggesting that we hard code links between tests and particular parts of the spec
09:46:33 <anthony> ... just that there may be intermediary thing
09:46:39 <anthony> ... could be a manifest or index
09:46:46 <anthony> ... for tests to assertions
09:46:54 <anthony> AB: Sure
09:46:59 <anthony> ... it would certainly be helpful
09:47:07 <anthony> ... and would be demonstrating to the director
09:47:15 <anthony> ... that you can map assertions and test cases
09:48:19 <anthony> KK: Assertions seem like they are the bare minimum
09:48:27 <anthony> ... in some cases you need to combine them
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09:51:31 <anthony> DS: I was going to suggest we (SVG Working Group) consider adopting the assertion conformance markup for we write specs
09:51:41 <anthony> ... or something along those lines
09:51:52 <anthony> ... and how we can approve the testing frame work
09:52:29 <anthony> KK: For SVG 2 you will move to Mercurial?
09:52:32 <anthony> DS: Yes
09:53:13 <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/integration/SVGIntegration.html
09:54:20 <anthony> DS: [gives history of integration spec]
09:57:53 <pdengler> action: pdengler to help shepazu drive SVG "Integration" specification to editors draft
09:57:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2899 - Help shepazu drive SVG "Integration" specification to editors draft [on Patrick Dengler - due 2010-11-12].
10:01:11 <ed> [break]
10:02:04 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
10:02:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/05-svg-minutes.html adrianba
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10:32:38 <pdengler> scribeNick: PDENGLER
10:34:21 <pdengler> topic: Implementation Report
10:35:26 <pdengler> pdengler: We have the updates that were requested of us through various threads are being delivered today, including renames
10:35:43 <pdengler> pdengler: I will work with Erik to get those deliverables to him directly to make sure our renaming is done correctly
10:36:41 <pdengler> ed: Did this include a change to the implementation report page
10:36:48 <pdengler> pdengler: I am not sure it did, but I will find out shortly
10:37:36 <pdengler> pdengler: Based upon where we landed, the minimal adjustments we would want to make is a sort on test name to make it clearer to developers which features were available across browsers
10:38:22 <pdengler> ed: Do you have the full run of IE9
10:38:47 <pdengler> pdengler: No, but le me get you a date, it shouldn't take that long.
10:39:17 <pdengler> ed: I've been going through the approved harness and fixing a bunch of issues. So some of the revision numbers are not correct (fixing reference images)
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10:40:45 <pdengler> pdengler: Chris is still doing a handful of WOFF fixes still.
10:41:22 <pdengler> topic: last call issues
10:41:33 <pdengler> ed: Should we try to distirubte the actions to get them done more quickly
10:41:51 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/24
10:43:36 <pdengler> ed: We could discuss the filter bias property.  Hardly any impelmentations do anything with this feature. And there is no test right now
10:43:55 <ed> ISSUE-2335?
10:43:55 <trackbot> ISSUE-2335 -- Last Call Comment: Clarify feConvolveMatrix bias property -- raised
10:43:55 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2335
10:45:34 <pdengler> ed: The issue is that it is not useful the way it is specified.  But no one implements this yet.
10:47:17 <pdengler> actoin: anthony to investigate support for bias in cannon impelmentation
10:47:29 <pdengler> action: anthony to investigate support for bias in cannon impelmentation
10:47:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2900 - Investigate support for bias in cannon impelmentation [on Anthony Grasso - due 2010-11-12].
10:49:03 <pdengler> ed: Proposal is to agree with the discrepency and push the claridication/correction into SVG 2.0 depending upon Anthony's report
10:49:56 <pdengler> ed: (looking through LC issues)
10:50:39 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2340
10:52:07 <pdengler> ed: This one is already resolved by ChrisL's check in.  
10:54:04 <pdengler> ed: We would benefit from load balancing the remaining LC issues
10:59:15 <pdengler> action: ed to send out reminder mails to resolve issues; consider establishing delivery dates
10:59:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2901 - Send out reminder mails to resolve issues; consider establishing delivery dates [on Erik Dahlström - due 2010-11-12].
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11:07:06 <ed> [lunchbreak]
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12:14:41 <anthony> scribe: anthony
12:14:45 <anthony> scribeNick: anthony
12:14:55 <anthony> present+ Hyeon
12:15:49 <anthony> Topic: Establishing high level scenarios for SVG 2
12:16:13 <anthony> PD: Are we going to be able to land a set of specs and tests
12:16:22 <anthony> ... that says this is how CSS applies to SVG
12:16:30 <anthony> ... don't really care about how it's done
12:16:35 <anthony> ... but that's a goal in mind
12:16:41 <anthony> ED: Yes
12:16:48 <anthony> ... that's the Integration specification
12:17:08 <anthony> PD: If our deliverable is Integration spec
12:17:19 <anthony> ... and we make any necessary updates as CSS integration is done
12:17:29 <anthony> ... then I think it is a matter of setting dates
12:17:50 <anthony> ... that we have to be aggressive about 
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12:18:41 <anthony> DS: I'm curious about being realistic about things
12:18:49 <anthony> ... are there some deadlines that we have to meet?
12:18:58 <anthony> ... for example Tiny 1.2 ran to a hard deadline
12:19:09 <anthony> ... because of the JIS group wanted to standardise it
12:19:21 <anthony> ... and needed it to be done by Dec
12:19:28 <anthony> ... are there implementation hard deadlines
12:21:06 <anthony> ... I would like to know what the time lines are from the different browser vendors
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12:25:09 <anthony> PD: Willing to add extra resources if that is want is needed
12:25:14 <anthony> DS: Testing is a big task
12:25:26 <anthony> PD: One thing I can help do at least is help people get through specs
12:27:22 <anthony> Topic: Time lines
12:27:48 <anthony> PD: High level time frame is say June 2011
12:28:18 <anthony> ... stable specs for Transforms 2D and 3D (CSS/SVG)
12:29:04 <anthony> ... Filters, Gradients (lower priority), Animations, SVG Integration
12:30:20 <anthony> JF: Our priority is 2D/3D Transforms and Gradients
12:30:48 <anthony> PD: Anthony working on Transforms and Gradients, Doug on Integration
12:31:11 <anthony> ... myself on Animation and Erik on Filters
12:31:18 <anthony> DS: I am interested in animation
12:32:05 <anthony> AG: We'll also have help from other people in other groups as well
12:32:12 <anthony> ... Dino, Simon Frazer
12:32:26 <anthony> DS: I would also really like to have Adobe in on the conversations about Animation as well
12:33:39 <anthony> ... and I'm concerned about is having the authoring tools
12:34:20 <anthony> AG: It would be good to have Alex D in the discussions as well
12:34:27 <anthony> DS: And Vincent Hardy
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12:37:59 <anthony> ... I want to have some concept of state in animation
12:38:19 <anthony> ... If I say have a button and I would like to have two different things happen depending on if it is on or off
12:38:38 <anthony> ... Just some simple concept of state
12:39:22 <pdengler> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-SVGCompositing-20090430/
12:39:29 <anthony> AG: SVG Compositing is ready to go
12:39:44 <anthony> ... so may as well do it as well
12:39:57 <anthony> DS: I'm really concerned with the DOM
12:39:59 <anthony> ED: Me too
12:40:02 <anthony> ... it's on my top list
12:40:12 <anthony> DS: The DOM is very inefficient
12:40:27 <anthony> ED: I'm interested in the simplifications
12:40:32 <anthony> ... to make it easier to use
12:40:53 <anthony> AG: Similar to uDOM?
12:41:05 <anthony> ED: More so about simplifying base value
12:41:06 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Simple_SVG_API
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12:42:24 <anthony> DS: I don't want to  bother with insertAt
12:42:37 <anthony> ... like if you don't give it anything it just appends it
12:42:43 <pdengler> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/images/6/64/SVGCSSTPAC.pdf
12:44:33 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_2_DOM
12:44:55 <anthony> PD: On page 6
12:45:01 <anthony> ... there's the puts
12:45:12 <anthony> ED: One of the things suggested already
12:45:25 <anthony> PD: Only trick is that it returns a string when you query the base value
12:45:30 <anthony> ... it returns it a string
12:46:02 <anthony> ... the only issue is if you use the set-er you have to change the unit type
12:46:24 <anthony> ... so if I set the string with rect = px then you have to make it to be that
12:46:30 <anthony> ED: Depending on what you get as the input
12:46:36 <anthony> ... there is a function like that
12:47:05 <anthony> ... for me it's more about aligning with the DOM core
12:47:17 <anthony> ... it is easy and left the old ones as aliases
12:47:28 <anthony> ... we had to add more code to do the array syntax
12:47:38 <anthony> PD: I would love to have this as something we solve
12:49:11 <anthony> DS: We should remember we have Cameron in the group
12:49:18 <anthony> ... and he is good with the IDL stuff
12:50:49 <anthony> PD: I would like to add the DOM fixes to that urgent push
12:53:31 <anthony> AG: Could probably get Cameron to do that if he's interested
12:53:36 <anthony> DS: I'd be interested as well
12:53:41 <anthony> PD: What's the work?
12:53:45 <anthony> ED: Not much work I think
12:53:55 <anthony> PD: Whatever work needs to be done or think needs to be done
12:54:10 <anthony> ... should ask him if he thinks it could be done
12:54:59 <anthony> ... I'm thinking about if people can code against the HTML DOM will be able to code against the SVG DOM
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12:55:28 <Hyeonsoo> las
12:56:06 <anthony> ACTION: Doug to Coordinate with Cameron to scope SVG DOM simplifications and establish a spec with a delivery date
12:56:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2902 - Coordinate with Cameron to scope SVG DOM simplifications and establish a spec with a delivery date [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-11-12].
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12:59:33 <anthony> ED: Only concern I guess is we will be done with 1.1
12:59:41 <anthony> ... and we will have to add the dates to the charter
12:59:54 <shepazu> Zakim, call Saint_Clair_3B
12:59:54 <Zakim> sorry, shepazu, I don't know what conference this is
13:00:13 <anthony> ED: How long does the charter have to go?
13:00:20 <anthony> DS: 2 years
13:00:21 <shepazu> Zakim, room for 2?
13:00:22 <Zakim> ok, shepazu; conference Team_(svg)13:00Z scheduled with code 26633 (CONF3) for 60 minutes until 1400Z
13:00:34 <shepazu> Zakim, call Saint_Clair_3B
13:00:34 <Zakim> ok, shepazu; the call is being made
13:00:35 <Zakim> Team_(svg)13:00Z has now started
13:02:21 <tbah> How does one call in?
13:02:27 <shepazu> Zakim, who's here?
13:02:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
13:02:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see tbah, homata, hidetaka, myakura, shepazu, Hyeonsoo, pdengler, anthony, jun, RRSAgent, fantasai, anthony_work, karl, ed, trackbot, heycam, Zakim
13:03:46 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #svg
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13:08:21 <ed> Zakim, whos' here?
13:08:21 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, ed.
13:11:55 <shepazu> Zakim, who's here?
13:11:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
13:11:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see adrianba, dsinger, tbah, homata, hidetaka, shepazu, Hyeonsoo, anthony, jun, RRSAgent, fantasai, anthony_work, karl, ed, trackbot, heycam, Zakim
13:22:32 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #svg
13:22:58 <ed> Topic: coons patches / gradients
13:23:00 <tbah> http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/MESH/Mesh.html
13:23:19 <anthony> TB: Link to a webpage I've prepared
13:23:35 <anthony> ... The motivation method is they are useful to producing vector art
13:23:45 <anthony> ... and we also get discussions similar to this on the mailing list
13:23:51 <anthony> ... there are 4 types
13:23:56 <anthony> ... gradients I could find
13:24:01 <anthony> ... they are listed
13:24:17 <anthony> ... [goes through different gradient types in paper]
13:24:29 <anthony> ... we've been talking through mostly coons patch gradients
13:25:04 <anthony> ... one thing you can do with coons patch gradients
13:25:08 <anthony> ... is emulate other gradients
13:25:36 <anthony> ... There's a four point coons patch gradient
13:25:43 <anthony> ... couldn't find anywhere this is used though
13:26:22 <anthony> ... One thing I noticed looking on the web, is the patches are always done with a rectangular grid
13:27:00 <anthony> ... One problem is you can fold it on top of itself
13:27:18 <anthony> ... and so if you have a sharp turn in curve and it has transparency
13:27:23 <anthony> ... could be problems
13:27:43 <anthony> ... so putting this in SVG is defining how you would render this
13:28:01 <anthony> ... each patch shares two colours and one bezier path
13:28:12 <anthony> ... you can zig-zag your patches along
13:28:26 <anthony> ... existing SVG gradients there are linear and radial
13:28:32 <anthony> ... and they have stops
13:28:39 <anthony> ... which doesn't really fit with coons patches
13:28:49 <anthony> ... because the colours are defined in the corners
13:29:10 <anthony> ...The mesh is defining the shape of the object
13:29:21 <anthony> CL: You could use the shape as a clipping path
13:29:27 <anthony> TB: You could do that
13:29:34 <anthony> ... but they are not used like that in the wild
13:29:48 <anthony> ... you're interested in taking the grid and deforming it to fit with a shape
13:29:58 <anthony> ... essentially it already is being self clipped
13:30:09 <anthony> ... There is one case where you would want to fill it an object
13:30:18 <anthony> ... and that's when you would do that with conical gradients
13:30:36 <anthony> ... You set up a rectangular grid
13:30:59 <anthony> ... It seems like a good idea to set up the gradient like a grid
13:31:05 <anthony> ... Illustrator seems to do this as well
13:31:52 <anthony> ... So go along the rows
13:31:56 <anthony> ... which define the sides and colours
13:32:01 <anthony> ... in the corners
13:32:12 <anthony> ... The coon patches are defined in terms of bezier curves
13:32:19 <anthony> ... Could use other paths
13:32:34 <anthony> ... and use approximations to bezier curves
13:32:46 <anthony> ... I've listed there one possible syntax
13:33:25 <anthony> ... Divide and conquer method could be used to render it
13:33:47 <anthony> ... There is an experimental Cairo implementation that implements this
13:34:04 <anthony> ... using Forward-rasterize
13:34:19 <anthony> ... Jasper replied back with some comments
13:35:00 <anthony> ... he gave me an example
13:35:03 <anthony> ... where you have a gradient
13:35:11 <anthony> ... and you map those using a transform function
13:35:15 <anthony> ... to a mesh gradient
13:35:40 <anthony> CL: On the top left patch
13:35:59 <anthony> ... you have to have 3 points on subsequent squares
13:36:16 <anthony> ... just wondering how this would work if you animated it
13:36:23 <anthony> ... or edited it through script
13:36:42 <anthony> DS: It almost seems there is some relationship between tiling and super paths
13:36:51 <anthony> TB: I'm not sure it's something you would animate
13:37:12 <anthony> ... It's quite a bit a work, and why you'd want to animate it
13:37:24 <anthony> DS: If you gave this to David Daley he'd animate it
13:37:31 <anthony> ... because he looks for cool stuff
13:37:42 <anthony> ... If someone had a particular goal in mind
13:38:07 <anthony> ... We do have consider animation
13:38:42 <anthony> ... One concern I have is with conflating the paint sever with the mechanices
13:38:46 <anthony> ... of the shapes
13:38:55 <anthony> ... the actual geometry of the shape
13:39:02 <anthony> ... One thing I don't like about Diffusion Curves
13:39:09 <anthony> ... if you look at the lines that are being defined
13:39:16 <anthony> ... there's no shape you are clicking on
13:39:29 <anthony> s/mechanices/mechanics/
13:39:40 <anthony> TB: You do have the outer bezier curve defining the shape
13:40:09 <anthony> AG: I think any gradient extensions we add should be a paint server
13:40:15 <anthony> ... otherwise you break the model
13:40:40 <anthony> CL: I can imagine that ball effect you have there
13:40:42 <anthony> ... with the lighting
13:40:50 <anthony> ... that you'd want to animate that
13:41:13 <anthony> TB: Getting this drawn is a lot time by hand
13:41:36 <anthony> ... I can understand what you want to do and it would be great if you could do that
13:41:49 <anthony> ... most people are not going to do these things by hand
13:42:15 <anthony> ... I wanted to do something more complicated than sphere
13:42:18 <anthony> ... just didn't have more time
13:42:32 <anthony> DS: I think it's great you spent the time in putting this together
13:43:05 <anthony> ... The first image I looked at made me think they are limited
13:43:15 <anthony> TB: I wasn't able to do complicated drawings
13:43:25 <anthony> ... but you can find complicated examples of their usage on the web
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13:43:48 <tbah> http://www.khulsey.com/adobe_illustrator_gradient_mesh.html
13:44:07 <anthony> CL: I means that the authoring tool is needed to do this
13:44:10 <anthony> ... because if you pick up a point
13:44:18 <anthony> ... you'll need the tool to move other points
13:44:22 <anthony> TB: You could animate it
13:44:26 <anthony> ... but it is not trivial
13:44:39 <ChrisL> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Phong-shading-sample.jpg
13:44:47 <anthony> CL: Did you see anyone using phong shading meshes instead
13:44:56 <anthony> ... If you follow the link there
13:45:08 <anthony> ... you'll see the same mesh using two different methods
13:45:14 <ChrisL> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phong_shading
13:45:17 <anthony> ... the phong shading is much smother
13:45:25 <anthony> ... because you are interpolating the normals
13:45:38 <anthony> ... the reason that came up and we tried using tri-mesh
13:45:52 <anthony> ... using Gourand shading
13:45:57 <anthony> ... and it didn't look smooth
13:46:06 <anthony> s/smother/smoother/
13:46:38 <anthony> ... It's used a lot in 3D (Gourand) shading
13:46:45 <anthony> ... as a step up from wire frame
13:46:55 <anthony> ... then you apply phong shading and it looks real
13:47:03 <anthony> ... which means there is hardware support for both
13:47:21 <anthony> ... The coons patches are cool but they are all done in an authoring tool
13:47:26 <anthony> ... and then rendered in software
13:47:48 <anthony> TB: A triangle mesh you could animate each point
13:48:44 <anthony> CL: The Triangle mesh proposal I made in terms of animation was easy to animate
13:49:59 <ChrisL> coons patches are on the cairo to-do list
13:50:04 <anthony> TB: So animating triangles is kind of a problem
13:50:12 <ChrisL> http://cairographics.org/todo/
13:50:19 <anthony> CL: I see Coons patches are on the Cairo to-do list
13:50:21 <anthony> TB: Yes
13:50:28 <anthony> ... it's experimental at the moment
13:50:36 <anthony> ... and there are a couple of examples they have there
13:50:40 <anthony> ... might not be the best implementation
13:50:45 <anthony> ... but there is at least a sample
13:51:26 <anthony> ED: From analysing this, did you look at what PDF are doing with this?
13:51:38 <anthony> TB: Yes, PDF and postscript are doing something exactly the same
13:51:45 <anthony> ... and you can add on a new patch one at a time
13:52:00 <anthony> ... you can zig-zag them back and forth
13:52:15 <anthony> ED: Well where do we want to go with this?
13:52:26 <anthony> CL: The question is it supported by libraries
13:52:33 <anthony> ... and does it give us what we want
13:54:23 <anthony> ... My concern is it requires an authoring tools as well
13:55:48 <jun> other method - http://graphics.cs.uiuc.edu/~tianxia/pdfs/imgvect_preprint.pdf
13:56:52 <anthony> TB: Animations aside, using this method you can produce life like images
13:56:58 <anthony> AG: There are other methods out there to produce life like images as well
13:57:03 <anthony> ... such as Diffusion Curves
13:58:32 <anthony> TB: Looks like they are doing triangle beziers on the side
13:59:40 <anthony> AG: I think it is worth having some use case and requirements
14:00:22 <anthony> JF: We should study available methods
14:00:33 <anthony> ... some methods can be used on a wide range of images
14:00:47 <anthony> ... and some methods can be applied to a particular type of image
14:00:58 <anthony> ... so we need to know the requirement
14:04:25 <ChrisL> trackbot, status
14:05:37 <anthony> ACTION: Tavmjong to Work with Tab Atkins on gradient extensions use case and requirements
14:05:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2903 - Work with Tab Atkins on gradient extensions use case and requirements [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2010-11-12].
14:06:21 <anthony> ED: Thanks Tav for doing the work
14:06:34 <Zakim> Team_(svg)13:00Z has ended
14:06:36 <Zakim> Attendees were 
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14:53:54 <ChrisL> scribe: ChrisL
14:54:06 <ChrisL> topic: retrospective on 2010
14:54:27 <ChrisL> cl: problem was shrinking below critical mass, too few members to do the work
14:54:48 <ChrisL> ... and also not knowing that going to LC means we had to go to CR and PR, not PER
14:55:08 <ChrisL> ... lots of work n 1.1SE test suite, much better, but was this the best time to do it
14:56:21 <ChrisL> ds: inevitable the way it happened, microsoft was not prepared to be takling 2 for excample, so focus was on 1.1
14:56:39 <ChrisL> ... now we have a broad interop o 1.1 features, so optimal time to move to svg 2
14:56:58 <ChrisL> ... we have buy-in now
14:57:53 <ChrisL> cl: great to have cam back
14:58:22 <ChrisL> erik: yes, you can see commits from cam as soon as he came back
15:00:36 <ChrisL> cl: spoke to suresh  about wildfox joining svg wg
15:01:29 <ChrisL> (discussion on assorted svg-related hiring opportunities we notice)
15:03:24 <ChrisL> ds: moving to one telcon a week, proposed by heycam
15:03:36 <ChrisL> ... but need to be more active on the list
15:05:28 <ChrisL> Resolved: one telcon a week on Thursday
15:07:47 <ChrisL> ag: happy to be an hour earlier, may be better for patrick too
15:07:57 <ChrisL> erik, chris: better for us
15:08:04 <ChrisL> ag: ok for heycam?
15:08:43 <ChrisL> ... better in nz
15:09:09 <ChrisL> proposed: one hour earlier for svg
15:10:01 <ChrisL> action: erik to mail  wg proposing new time
15:10:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2904 - Mail  wg proposing new time [on Erik Dahlström - due 2010-11-12].
15:26:14 <ChrisL> (discussion on svg meeting in tokyo co-located with css wg meeting in June 2011)
15:42:07 <ChrisL> ed: need to get milestone dates for the next charter, so we need to decide on priorities
15:44:41 <ChrisL> ds: will put those dates in the charter
15:46:51 <ChrisL> ed: don't want svg 2 to be a 1.3 with minimal changes
15:46:57 <ChrisL> ds: animation will be better
15:47:10 <ChrisL> ed: great, but nt really a new feature
15:48:04 <ChrisL> ed: the name has already stuck
15:48:12 <ChrisL> ag: will have new stuff in it
15:48:42 <ChrisL> ed: don't mind if there are many new modules and svg2 is a good feature set, moving modules ahead at their own page
15:48:54 <ChrisL> ... at soe point we still need to group the together
15:49:06 <ChrisL> ag: though we said a year afte rthat, so June 2012
15:49:16 <ChrisL> s/soe/some/
15:49:16 <ed> s/page/pace/
15:52:02 <anthony> s/though/thought/
15:52:15 <anthony> s/afte rthat/after that/
15:52:21 <ChrisL> cl: modules move based on their effort, degree of developer interest, and trest suite status
15:52:42 <ChrisL> s/what i typed/what I meant/
15:54:42 <ChrisL> ds: are we going to include modules byreference or by inclusion?
15:56:10 <ChrisL> cl: joint specs, so we clearly need to do it by reference
15:58:31 <ChrisL> (discussion on how best to reftest features like filters; how to avoid platform differences in text antialiasing etc)
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16:03:12 <ChrisL> action chris to add Helder missed issues to LC tracker
16:03:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2905 - Add Helder missed issues to LC tracker [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-11-12].
16:03:31 <ChrisL> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Aug/0009.html
16:03:40 <ChrisL> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Aug/0014.html
16:03:49 <ChrisL> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Aug/0015.html
16:05:07 <ChrisL> first one is about changes. but next publication will list changes since last (LC) publication 
16:07:28 <ChrisL> we need a good and complete list of changes between the last /TR publication and the next one
16:08:54 <ChrisL> action: chris to respond to Helger to explain that changes appendix is relative to last published version
16:08:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2906 - Respond to Helger to explain that changes appendix is relative to last published version [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-11-12].
16:13:49 <ChrisL> not clear how to edit in place the first edition to give dated links
16:14:11 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/REC-SVG11-20030114/ecmascript-binding.html
16:14:46 <ChrisL> action: chris to talk to comm team anout editing in place svg 1.1 first edition to absolutize some undated links to ecmascript appendix
16:14:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2907 - Talk to comm team anout editing in place svg 1.1 first edition to absolutize some undated links to ecmascript appendix [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-11-12].
16:16:22 <ChrisL> his third comment is a test case typo. not a lc issue. we fix it live in the meeting
16:17:21 <ChrisL> adjourned
16:17:26 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
16:17:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/05-svg-minutes.html ChrisL
16:31:18 <Zakim> ed, you asked to be reminded at this time about whatever
16:37:35 <jun> FAQ on Emoji - http://www.unicode.org/faq/emoji_dingbats.html
16:47:24 <shepazu> https://twitter.com/svgwg
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