08:11:48 RRSAgent has joined #xproc 08:11:48 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-xproc-irc 08:11:52 Meeting: XML Processing Model WG 08:11:52 Date: 4 November 2010 08:11:52 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2010/11/04-05-agenda 08:11:52 Meeting: 183 08:11:52 Chair: Norm 08:11:53 Scribe: Norm 08:11:55 ScribeNick: Norm 08:12:03 Present: Norm, Vojtech, Alex 08:12:09 Present: Norm, Vojtech, Alex, Forent 08:12:11 Present: Norm, Vojtech, Alex, Florent 08:12:21 Regrets: Henry, Paul, Jeni 08:13:06 Vojtech has joined #xproc 08:13:32 Topic: Accept this agenda? 08:13:32 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2010/11/04-05-agenda 08:14:46 Henry can call in between 16:15 and 17:00, so we'll move review of processor profiles to the end of the day 08:14:59 Accepted. 08:15:05 Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting? 08:15:05 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2010Oct/0017.html 08:15:12 Accepted. 08:15:29 Topic: Next meeting: telcon, 18 Nov 2010? 08:15:32 No regrets heard. 08:16:00 fgeorges has joined #xproc 08:16:09 Topic: Review of proposed XProc errata 08:16:30 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2010/05/wd-comments/ 08:16:46 (We've got things mixed together on the issues list; Norm will fix that later) 08:18:54 Topic: Allow p:xslt to produce an empty sequence? 08:28:22 Vojtech: It would require all implementations to change. 08:28:25 Alex: It is annoying. 08:28:33 More discussion... 08:28:43 Norm: I don't hear consensus to make the change as an erratum. 08:31:24 Mohamed: I think it's an uncommon problem, and the folks who encounter it, the ones using xsl:result-document, are probably able to work around it. 08:31:45 ...It might be more confusing for users with simpler stylesheets to understand why it's a sequence. 08:32:03 Proposal: No change to the spec, the test suite has already been updated by Vojtech. 08:32:15 MoZ has joined #xproc 08:32:29 alexmilowski has joined #xproc 08:35:06 Accepted. 08:37:43 Topic: xml:id processing in XProc 08:38:24 Mohamed: We only say "may" in the spec, so I don't think we can say that xml:id processing is mandatory. 08:38:32 Vojtech: But the revised profiles document makes it explicit. 08:40:12 Mohamed: We don't have xml:id in the implementation-defined features list. 08:40:18 Norm: I think we need to do that as an erratum. 08:40:32 Norm: I just don't think we can change "may" to "must" in an erratum. 08:40:48 ACTION: Norm to draft an erratum to add xml:id to the implementation-defined features list. 08:43:46 Alex: If you were going to make xml:id required, you'd have to say it was performed on all the inputs where ever they came from, on p:document, on p:inline, and on the outputs of all steps. 08:43:57 ...Should we say that in the spec as part of the erratum, explaining why xml:id was left as "may"? 08:45:18 Norm: Yes, I'll try to do that when I add the text to make xml:id implementation-defined 08:45:43 Proposal: No technical changes, just clarify that xml:id is an implementation-defined feature 08:45:50 Accepted. 08:47:40 Topic: Shouldn't choose report err:XD0026 too? 08:48:21 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2010Sep/0003.html 08:49:07 Norm: this looks like a straight-up erratum to me 08:49:16 Sounds of general agreement 08:51:14 Proposal: Fix the prose for p:xpath-context to make it clear that err:XD0026 should be raised there too. 08:51:25 Accepted. 08:51:35 ACTION: Norm to propose an erratum to fix p:xpath-context 08:56:34 Topic: New and upcoming XProc implementations 08:56:40 (Topic suggested by Mohamed) 08:58:34 General discussion: Tubular submitted test suite results recently. There's a .NET implementation in the works from Oliver H. Vojtech knows of another Java implementation that's coming. 08:58:57 Mohamed: We should update the public XProc page too. 08:59:03 Norm: Yes. Want to take a stab at it? 08:59:19 ACTION: Mohamed to propose new text for the public XProc page. 09:11:46 alexmilowski has joined #xproc 09:41:46 Norm has joined #xproc 09:41:54 alexmilowski has joined #xproc 09:43:17 fgeorges has joined #xproc 09:47:57 Vojtech has joined #xproc 09:55:45 Topic: Simplified template step 09:55:53 Mohamed: You can do it with XSLT 09:56:08 Some exploration of how XSLT Simplified Stylesheets work 10:22:24 Much discussion... 10:22:43 Alex: Are some of these things really just syntactic sugar that you could implement by translating to some equivalent 1.0 pipelien? 10:22:47 s/lien/line/ 10:34:51 Liam has joined #xproc 10:40:52 Liam has joined #xproc 11:05:49 Norm has joined #xproc 12:56:56 alexmilowski has joined #xproc 13:01:35 Norm has joined #xproc 13:08:09 fgeorges has joined #xproc 13:18:48 Liam has joined #xproc 13:20:52 Vojtech has joined #xproc 13:24:05 Topic: Charter for XProc 13:24:37 Norm: What should we do next? Fold up our tents and go home or do more work? 13:25:15 Liam: The XML Activity has a charter, as do the individual working groups. They all expire in January. This is normal, it's a chance for the membership to review activities. 13:26:06 Liam outlines the process. 13:35:15 Some discussion of 1 or 2 year charters; a 2 year charter implying XProc 2.0 work. 13:35:37 Norm: We have two implementations and reports of as many as four or five more in the works. 13:36:13 ...I think I'd like a 1 year charter for maintenance and possible requirements gathering, then after a year see where we are. 13:36:56 Liam: I'd like to be able to consider pipelines, with synchronization points, as a possible solution for more complex processing requirements 13:37:05 ...For example, as an alternative to XQuery Scripting Extensions. 13:39:30 Norm: I'd be happy with a charter that broadly spoke of maintenance and possible requirements gathering with some explicit discussion of interaction with other working groups to consider possible cooperative activities. 13:56:50 Liam has joined #xproc 14:26:46 http://expath.org/spec/zip 14:29:13 Zakim has joined #xproc 14:29:17 zakim, room for 2? 14:29:19 ok, caribou; conference Team_(xproc)14:29Z scheduled with code 26635 (CONF5) for 60 minutes until 1529Z 14:29:28 zakim, call Rhone_4 14:29:28 ok, caribou; the call is being made 14:29:30 Team_(xproc)14:29Z has now started 14:29:50 Team_(xproc)14:29Z has ended 14:29:51 Attendees were 15:10:55 rrsagent, pointer? 15:10:55 See http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-xproc-irc#T15-10-55 15:11:04 rrsagent, set logs world-visible 15:11:43 rrsagent, pointer 15:11:43 See http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-xproc-irc#T15-11-43 15:13:04 ht has joined #xproc 15:13:16 zakim, code? 15:13:16 the conference code is 26635 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), ht 15:13:43 Hello ht! ;-) 15:13:44 zakim, call Rhone_4 15:13:44 ok, caribou; the call is being made 15:13:45 Team_(xproc)14:29Z has now started 15:13:53 Afternoon norm 15:13:57 dialing . . . 15:15:16 ugh. want to use skype to a computer instead? 15:15:20 can't you get zakim to call you? 15:15:38 Not team anymore :-( 15:16:40 we can't here you 15:16:55 we can't hear you either 15:16:57 MoZ has joined #xproc 15:17:17 we may end up with skype as the only option. Carine has gone to look for a better phone 15:18:21 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:18:21 On the phone I see no one 15:18:32 This is weird 15:18:43 I can hear you guys 15:18:49 but zakim doesn't know we're here??? 15:19:03 zakim, this is xproc 15:19:03 Norm, this was already Team_(xproc)14:29Z 15:19:04 You can re-tell what I type 15:19:05 ok, Norm; that matches Team_(xproc)14:29Z 15:19:13 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:19:13 On the phone I see no one 15:19:37 zakim, this is conf5 15:19:37 caribou, this was already Team_(xproc)14:29Z 15:19:38 ok, caribou; that matches Team_(xproc)14:29Z 15:20:46 I'm very happy with that outcome 15:20:54 Topic: XML processor profiles 15:21:05 I will help if we can actually figure out a ToC for the proposed additional doc't 15:21:22 Norm: I think we're in good shape. I like the document. I discussed it informally with the TAG over lunch. 15:21:29 I remain unconvinced that there is a coherent topic short of a PhD thesis is scope 15:21:44 s/is scope/in scope/ 15:21:55 ...There's still a desire to have a document that says more along the lines of "XML Functions", but it doesn't have to be this document and it doesn't have to be a normative product of this WG. 15:21:59 zakim, who is present? 15:21:59 I don't understand your question, ht. 15:22:01 ...I agreed that I'd work on such a document. 15:22:46 I did look 15:23:01 I believe all are closed 15:23:11 That is 1, 3 (optimistically) 15:23:20 Yes, it says it's impl defined 15:23:30 David may not like that 15:23:42 You are now too far from the mike 15:26:56 Team_(xproc)14:29Z has ended 15:26:57 Attendees were 15:30:32 Norm: Next steps: clean up the typo, republish as a Last Call with an explicit note that we plan to go directly from LC to PR. Explicitly ask David and Bjorn if they're content with the resolutions. 15:30:39 ACTION: Henry to produce such a Last Call draft. 15:30:59 ACTION: Henry to close the issues on the DoC that we believe are resolved. 15:34:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-xproc-minutes.html caribou 15:39:15 Present+ Moz, Carine 15:39:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-xproc-minutes.html caribou 15:40:01 Present+ Henry (on the phone) 15:49:23 ACTION: Mohamed to write up a proposal for p:iterate (along the lines of xsl:iterate from XSL 2.1) 15:55:33 topic: Iteration 15:58:48 Some discussion of the XML Calabash "iterate-to-fixed-point" step. 15:59:55 Alex points out that his use case, combining the entries of a paginated Atom feed into a single feed isn't well-served by this step. 16:00:13 Mohamed suggested that the p:iterate step will provide a way to do the pagination use case easily. 16:00:23 Florent observes that if you have p:iterate you can implement fixed-point iteration with it. 16:08:00 Mohamed: The p:iterate step will iterate over a sequence, but if the fixed-point case is a useful case, then we can probably make that work. 16:09:30 Topics: More future step possibilities 16:10:00 Norm: We can't add new compound steps until V.next, but there are some we could write up as possibilities 16:17:58 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2006Oct/0114.html 16:18:12 We decided not to do this in V1 16:18:21 Record here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2006Jan/0006.html 16:18:30 ...but only indirectly 16:25:41 Some discussion of the restriction on where p:variables can appear. We successfully convinced ourselves that we needed the restriction :-) 16:31:45 Some discussion of dependencies 16:32:06 It might be nice to have a partition element that simply ensures that all of the steps in one partition run before/after all the ones in another partition 16:34:40 rrsagent, set log world-visible 16:34:45 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:34:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-xproc-minutes.html Norm 17:25:30 Zakim has left #xproc