07:49:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webfonts
07:49:23 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-webfonts-irc
07:49:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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07:49:27 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3668
07:49:27 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
07:49:28 <trackbot> Meeting: WebFonts Working Group Teleconference
07:49:28 <trackbot> Date: 04 November 2010
07:50:04 <Vlad> Zakim, call Roseraie_1
07:50:04 <Zakim> sorry, Vlad, I don't know what conference this is
07:50:49 <Vlad> Zakim, list
07:50:49 <Zakim> I see W3C_AC(*)3:00AM active
07:50:50 <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are XML_SchemaW()3:00AM, DI_(TPAC)3:00AM
07:57:46 <Vlad> zakim, room for 5 for 8 hours?
07:57:46 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, Vlad.
07:58:11 <Vlad> zakim, room for 5 for 480 minutes?
07:58:13 <Zakim> ok, Vlad; conference Team_(webfonts)07:58Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 480 minutes until 1558Z
07:58:30 <Vlad> zakim, please call Roserie_1
07:58:30 <Zakim> I am sorry, Vlad; I do not know a number for Roserie_1
07:58:41 <Vlad> zakim, please call Roseraie_1
07:58:41 <Zakim> ok, Vlad; the call is being made
07:58:42 <Zakim> Team_(webfonts)07:58Z has now started
07:58:43 <Zakim> +Roseraie_1
07:59:07 <Vlad> zakim, code?
07:59:07 <Zakim> the conference code is 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Vlad
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08:00:16 <jdaggett> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/2010-TPAC#Agenda
08:03:50 <Liam> Liam has joined #webfonts
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08:09:15 <ChrisL> guys, my time is split between svg and webfonts. So I will do webfonts in the mornings and svg in the afternoons
08:09:23 <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
08:09:23 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-webfonts-irc#T08-09-23
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08:10:33 <Liam> scribe: Liam
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08:12:49 <jdaggett> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/2010-TPAC#Agenda
08:14:07 <Zakim> -Roseraie_1
08:14:09 <Zakim> Team_(webfonts)07:58Z has ended
08:14:09 <Zakim> Attendees were Roseraie_1
08:14:27 <ChrisL> zakim, remind us in 8 hours to go home
08:14:27 <Zakim> ok, ChrisL
08:15:37 <Liam> agenda: http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/2010-TPAC#Agenda
08:15:47 <Liam> added to agenda: discussion about ePub
08:16:06 <Liam> Vlad: let's start there
08:16:54 <Liam> John: christopher and I sent out some email to colleagues, not yet heard back...
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08:17:03 <Liam> May be some concern from some foundries
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08:17:28 <jdaggett> http://code.google.com/p/epub-revision/
08:17:49 <Liam> We may need in the woff spec to look at coming up with language... if it looks like there's an open-ended creep, woff becoming a general font format, foundries may be concerned
08:18:36 <Liam> cslye: we need to set boundaries, didn't want woff to be just another font format
08:19:10 <Liam> vlad: section 1 last para and note says, woff is intended for use with @font-face, which spells out the scope
08:19:29 <Liam> howcoe: I think it's too restrictive
08:19:51 <Liam> maybe end the sentence with @font-face
08:21:08 <Liam> John: from a foundry's perspective it's down to licensing issues
08:21:47 <Liam> jdaggett: I don't think we're tied to different licensing models
08:22:26 <Liam> vlad: [speaking for Monotype] we can license a font for a specific use, it's not the technology
08:25:28 <Liam> [discussion of differences between ePub and Web pages, and whether the spec allows this usage today]
08:26:44 <cslye> Proposed changed: "The WOFF format is intended for use with @font-face to provide fonts linked to specific documents."
08:26:59 <cslye> s/changed/change/
08:27:35 <Liam> jdaggett: ePub 2.1 (current), but what's really being discussed is 3.0 ...
08:27:50 <Liam> I posted a link to their wiki page. It's not (yet) a very coherent site though
08:28:09 <Liam> howcome: I think we could see this being used very quickly in ePub
08:28:48 <Liam> John: might there be useful extensions to metadata for ePub?
08:28:53 <ChrisL> woff gives an unambiguous license link so is more suited for epub than obfuscation
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08:30:07 <Liam> vlad: tells you the description of the font, who it's licensed for, I think it's all about the font, in woff
08:30:10 <ChrisL> http://dev.w3.org/webfonts/WOFF/spec/#Metadata
08:30:28 <Vlad> http://dev.w3.org/webfonts/WOFF/spec/#Metadata
08:30:37 <Vlad> looking at the metadata section
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08:37:41 <Liam> [discussion of christopher's text, and the word "specific" in it]
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08:38:59 <Liam> howcome: the acronym WOFF needs to be explained in the abstract as well as the introduction
08:39:30 <Liam> vlad: the normative text also has downloaded fonts
08:40:23 <Liam> John: suggest use Web Documents instead of Web pages
08:40:30 <Liam> ChrisL: we can always add a glaossary if we need to
08:40:36 <jdaggett> I would change this to "The WOFF format is intended for use with @font-face to provide fonts linked to web documents"
08:40:40 <Liam> s/glaossary/glossary/
08:41:18 <Liam> cslye: does that mean an ePub reader must implement a same-origin restriction?
08:41:22 <Liam> [several people] yes
08:42:01 <ChrisL> need to avoid the idea that 'localhost' as an origin gives access to all fonts on all publications
08:42:14 <Liam> jdaggett: if epub is going to use woff they need to use css3 fonts, otherwise there's no guarantee they're loading the font in such a way that it doesn't affect other things
08:42:34 <Liam> e.g. there are APIs that allow you to activate a font system-wide on some systems
08:42:51 <Liam> vlad: the woff spec addresses that
08:43:25 <Liam> jdaggett: maybe we need to say to the ePub, you need to follow the spec in this area
08:43:30 <John> Proposal: the WOFF spec contains four references to 'web page(s)'; all four of these should be changed to 'web document(s)'.
08:43:34 <Liam> cslye: agreed
08:45:12 <Liam> ChrisL: do we want to send an explicit message to epub or just rely on shared membership?
08:46:11 <Liam> jdaggett: the daisy consortium, an accessibility group, ended up creating ePub; Japanese are pushing for ePub 3 to become (when ready) a JIS standard
08:46:33 <Liam> s/daisy/DAISY/
08:46:39 <jdaggett> s/ePub/EPUB/
08:48:14 <Liam> vlad: if we make a statement to say that we're OK with EPUB using woff I think that's OK
08:48:40 <Liam> but I wouldn't want to push it too much, because it only makes sense if they mandate linked fonts in the first place
08:49:18 <Liam> [EPUB current spec at http://www.idpf.org/specs.htm ]
08:49:49 <Liam> DECISION: replace Web page with Web document in our spec, in all four places
08:51:25 <ChrisL> edit done
08:53:11 <Liam> DECISION: change downloadable to linked, in para before note in intro, User agents supporting the WOFF file format for downloadable fonts MUST...
08:53:39 <Liam> and next sentence in same pararaph
08:56:11 <Liam> Topic: Review WOFF spec text before Last Call
08:56:23 <Liam> John: current status is public working draft
08:56:35 <Liam> ChrisL: we also have an editor's draft
08:56:50 <Liam> [we have had public feedback and it's been incorporated into the editor's draft]
08:56:58 <ChrisL> http://dev.w3.org/webfonts/WOFF/spec/
08:58:00 <Liam> and http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-WOFF-20100727/ as official public Working Draft
08:58:13 <Vlad> relevant to our discussion of the WOFF spec: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webfonts-wg/2010Nov/0000.html
08:59:05 <ChrisL> also relevant http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-font/2010OctDec/0067.html
09:00:41 <Vlad> and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-font/2010OctDec/0066.html
09:03:21 <Liam> howcome: I am happy to concur with the majority decision to go to last call
09:03:26 <Liam> (since won't be here tomorrow)
09:04:28 <Liam> ChrisL: suggestion to add a URL attribute to the description element
09:05:31 <Liam> DECISION: add a URL attribute to the description element, as per other elements
09:06:09 <Liam> [closes http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-font/2010OctDec/0067.html ]
09:06:37 <Liam> DECISION: add text to say that a URL can be a URI anywhere
09:06:52 <Liam> s/URL/URI/
09:06:54 <Liam> s/URI/IRI/
09:09:32 <Liam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webfonts-wg/2010Nov/0000.html
09:09:55 <Liam> (and response from Sylvain)
09:11:22 <Liam> DECISION: delete the paragraph, In addition, vendors MAY include additional types of metadata as new elements, ... on request).
09:11:33 <Liam> (since it is no longer correct)
09:11:43 <Liam> Topic: Action items
09:12:01 <Vlad> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/open
09:12:53 <Liam> [action 15]
09:13:43 <ChrisL> action-15?
09:13:43 <trackbot> ACTION-15 -- Jonathan Kew to split intro to remove these requirements and insert them into a new section, "normative references" -- due 2010-08-24 -- OPEN
09:13:43 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/15
09:13:51 <ChrisL> action-15 closed
09:13:51 <trackbot> ACTION-15 Split intro to remove these requirements and insert them into a new section, "normative references" closed
09:14:17 <Vlad> trackbot, close action 15
09:14:17 <trackbot> Sorry, Vlad, I don't understand 'trackbot, close action 15'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
09:14:43 <ChrisL> action-23?
09:14:43 <trackbot> ACTION-23 -- Jonathan Kew to verify whether, with zlib, it's possible to have a stream that allows an EOF midstream, so extra data can be padded on mid-stream. -- due 2010-08-24 -- OPEN
09:14:43 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/23
09:15:24 <Liam> jonathan: it turns out that you can add things that decompression will ignore, so nothing to stop you add stuff on the end of a compressed stream
09:15:40 <Liam> ChrisL: we already have a private data blob
09:16:38 <Liam> Jonathan: there's zillions of ways you could hide private data, so I don't think it's a problem
09:17:53 <Liam> we do reject a font if you leave extra dead space between tables
09:18:10 <Liam> john: and if the uncompressed size doesn't match... but that's a different thing
09:18:39 <Liam> jonathan: we could reject if people are trying to slip extra data in, but that'd require reading the whole stream first
09:19:00 <ChrisL> close action-23
09:19:00 <trackbot> ACTION-23 Verify whether, with zlib, it's possible to have a stream that allows an EOF midstream, so extra data can be padded on mid-stream. closed
09:19:02 <Liam> DECISION: action-23, extra data after the font, isn't an issue
09:19:23 <Liam> action-29?
09:19:23 <trackbot> ACTION-29 -- John Hudson to review woff faq with chris and vlad -- due 2010-10-06 -- OPEN
09:19:23 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/29
09:19:43 <Liam> vlad: is there something we need to change for EPUB?
09:19:55 <Liam> John: I like the phrase "Web-served typography"...
09:20:20 <Liam> we might want to review it, part of the purpose of the FAQ is to popularise fonts on the Web
09:20:31 <Liam> vlad: the FAQ must not be more restrictive than the spec itself
09:20:47 <Liam> action-33?
09:20:48 <trackbot> ACTION-33 -- Chris Lilley to write up the proposed text for WOFF processing model -- due 2010-10-27 -- OPEN
09:20:48 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/33
09:21:08 <Liam> [action-29 remains open, new stuff to look at]
09:21:13 <Liam> [action-33 ongoing]
09:21:19 <Liam> action-35?
09:21:19 <trackbot> ACTION-35 -- Jonathan Kew to add the language expalining that attributes with 'id' as a name should not be treated as element ids. -- due 2010-10-27 -- OPEN
09:21:19 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/35
09:21:34 <Liam> chris: Jonathan had proposed some syntax but I wasn't happy with it
09:22:17 <ChrisL> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/webfonts/WOFF/spec/Overview.html.diff?r1=1.24&r2=1.25&f=h
09:23:00 <Liam> chris: XML doesn't have a standard element called id, it does have xml:id
09:24:23 <ChrisL> so we should say "of type ID"
09:24:49 <Liam> DECISION: proposed changes from Chris accepted
09:25:06 <Liam> close action-35
09:25:06 <trackbot> ACTION-35 Add the language expalining that attributes with 'id' as a name should not be treated as element ids. closed
09:26:33 <Vlad> trackbot, close action-27
09:26:33 <trackbot> ACTION-27 Write up a test suite plan closed
09:26:51 <Liam> Topic: Review test plan, allocate actions for test creation
09:26:56 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/Main_Page#Introduction
09:28:00 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/TestPlan-UserAgent
09:28:37 <Liam> chris: each testable assertion in the spec is marked up in the spec
09:28:43 <Liam> the test plans link back to those assertions
09:29:26 <Liam> One in particular, css3font, is not clear
09:29:43 <Liam> jdaggett: it's important to have this, but I don't think it's sufficient
09:30:05 <Liam> I think there's lots of cases where you want to create many tests, and in others you may want to test combinations
09:30:21 <Liam> so this [plan] is important, but it's not like you want to have one test for each one
09:30:39 <Liam> ChrisL: I've said for some of them you need e.g. 4 tests, but I'll add more tests if suggested.
09:31:06 <Liam> ChrisL: Quite a lot of these tests will require fonts with a known flaw, to test "you must not..." and we'll also need a font that does render
09:31:41 <Liam> jdaggett: I made a font with an encoding that displays the word "FAIL" as "PASS" for CSS
09:31:56 <Liam> jdaggett: it would be ice to use reftest format
09:32:20 <Liam> a reftest is the idea that you have 2 versions of a Web page that should render identically, and you can test them automatically, by rendering both and comparing the results
09:33:13 <Liam> Some people will have test suites with tests and images, but problem is hard to maintain, and too likely that people regenerate lots of images without checking carefully.
09:33:31 <Liam> ChrisL: another reftest advantage is that e.g. sub-pixel rendering will always be the same
09:35:13 <Liam> jdaggett: example page 1 uses an invalid font, so it'll render with the default font; page 2 uses the default page... so, the pages should end up looking the same
09:35:27 <Liam> vlad: how would it work if you _should_ see the font?
09:37:52 <Liam> jdaggett: there's a set of tests, you have to install some fonts on your system
09:38:04 <Liam> and they're set up so you see FAIL if you didn't install them
09:39:55 <Liam> Jonathan: it can be difficult to make a font that has _only_ the flaw you're trying to test for
09:40:18 <ChrisL> Tal can make fonts with specific flaws
09:41:14 <Liam> jdaggett: I'd like to see some common name, e.g. I've produced fonts starting with CSS-Test, so they all appear together in font lists
09:41:22 <Liam> cslye: how about WFWG?
09:41:36 <Liam> jdaggett: I think WOFF-Test would be clearer, e.g. Woff-Test Invalid Whatever...
09:42:03 <Liam> Specific items...
09:44:06 <Liam> e.g., langselect, behaviour is optional, so hard to have a fail, current spec not testable
09:46:32 <Liam> Liam: if it's a SHOULD, your spec passes the test if it's implemented, it's not about whether the UA conforms but about whether the spec can be implemented
09:47:15 <Liam> ChrisL: for lang it seems it could be automated
09:49:22 <Liam> ChrisL: next steps? we can still find flaws, and additional tests
09:49:28 <Liam> jdaggett: some of these are going to be hard
09:51:19 <Liam> e.g, whether a font is available to the OS
09:51:25 <Liam> Liam: what about availability to plugins?
09:52:18 <Liam> jdaggett: ascending-recreated harder to test
09:53:50 <Liam> with certain system font APIs you don't have access to all the font data structures
09:57:01 <Liam> Liam: if it's not testable, might be better not to be normative
09:57:08 <Liam> vlad: we really want it as MUST though
09:57:17 <Liam> jdaggett: we don't necessarily need to test all elements in the spec
09:57:35 <Liam> ChrisL: I did this approach so we can make a conscious decision about what to test
09:58:29 <ChrisL> ok lets go to http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/TestPlan-Format after the break
09:58:46 <Liam> John: on font being the same... we've used a couple of references to "the original font data"
09:58:54 <Liam> ChrisL: I plan to challenge it, to clarify
09:59:24 <Liam> John: for font vendors "the original font" is something a long way upstream from what we mean, the font that gets shoved into woff
09:59:31 <Liam> jdaggett: describing this has always been hard
09:59:38 <Liam> vlad: whatever is provided to woff
09:59:50 <Liam> John: we need to define that clearly, a glossary maybe or a definition, or a better term
10:00:10 <Liam> [break]
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10:23:48 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ScribeNick: TabAtkinsTPAC 
10:25:06 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jdaggett: For the test suite, we'll categorize things that are required, but can't be tested.
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10:26:43 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: Let's go through the format tests.
10:27:18 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/TestPlan-Format
10:27:37 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: The majority of these tests appear to be testable by a WOFF validator.
10:27:59 <ChrisL> http://code.typesupply.com/wiki/woffTools
10:28:18 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: The current validator ^^^ actually already tests several.
10:29:47 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: It creates an HTML file with the test data.
10:29:56 <TabAtkinsTPAC> [chris shows an example of the results file]
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10:37:20 <ChrisL> action: chris to recategorise the general conformance criteria
10:37:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-36 - Recategorise the general conformance criteria [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-11-11].
10:37:48 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/TestPlan-Format
10:38:17 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: Where I think the assertions are etestable with the validator, I noted that in the test nme.
10:38:33 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: One requires you to have access to both the sfnt and the woff font, because the tables have to be in the same ordere.
10:38:44 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: I believe it would be fairly easy to knock together a quick program to do that.
10:39:11 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: The WOFF validator does test that the metadata is well-formed, and our schema tests that it matches.
10:39:22 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: There's one that now falls into the general category, which isn't testable.
10:39:28 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: The "may compress" test.
10:39:42 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: You can test that the UA supports it, but it's not something testable for the format.
10:39:45 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/TestPlan-AuthoringTool
10:40:06 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: Many of these require you to compare the woff and the sfnt.
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10:40:30 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: Like the one that says you must not compress if the compression would make it larger.
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10:41:08 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: So some of these we'll require an opentype file to be brought into your tools, and if it makes a woff it fails.
10:41:43 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: So say you have a fixer program that makes a woff, do you pass if you emit a warning before fixing?  Or if you just fix it?
10:43:11 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: Currently the spec says that for [that one?], it's okay to emit a warning.
10:45:33 <TabAtkinsTPAC> [chatter about that test, about how changing the padding can alter the checksum]
10:45:55 <TabAtkinsTPAC> Vlad: We talked about the scope.  Whatever is given to the WOFF converter is the input; whatever happened to the font *before* that is out-of-scope.
10:46:05 <TabAtkinsTPAC> Vlad: So if some tool changes things and corrects the checksums, we don't care.
10:46:20 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jdaggett: It seems the testsuite for this is a bit tricky.
10:46:49 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jdaggett: In some cases we have to say "the tool must spit out an error", but in other cases we can just inspect the woff.
10:47:01 <TabAtkinsTPAC> Vlad: There is a requirement for the WOFF converter to complain about the input.
10:47:20 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jdaggett: If I have a conversion tool that fixes up bogus fonts before the import, that makes it somewhat hard to test.
10:47:57 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: Right.  So for all thesee authoring tools ones, it's heavily interactive.
10:48:13 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: We can allude to that - "If your tool does [this], you can't test [that]."
10:48:20 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: So I've made wiki pages for these categories.
10:48:40 <TabAtkinsTPAC> Vlad: I asked Tal if he'd be available for phone discussion.
10:49:52 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jdaggett: I think we should set a date for testsuite, and then work our way back to see what has to happen by when.
10:50:07 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jdaggett: Ideally we'd have something by Xmas, maybe middle of January.
10:50:22 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: Definitely my idea - by the time we exit LC, we should be ready for CR immediately.
10:50:40 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jdaggett: Did we decide on style conformance?
10:50:44 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jdaggett: CR exit criteria?
10:51:08 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: I'd suggest the usual "2 independent impls" rule.
10:51:19 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: I'd suggest *not* adopting CSS's "no nightly build" thing.
10:52:50 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jdaggett: We'd have to be careful.  Chrome, frex, only releases nightlies as source.  I don't want to allow source-only releases as ok, because it's too hard to ensure that you have the exact same stuff.
10:53:00 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: The validation tool is built from source, though.
10:53:10 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jdaggett: That's Python.  A bit different from a huge C++ project.
10:54:07 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jdaggett: Also, do we require 2 *complete* impls, or just 2 impls of each?
10:54:11 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: That's somewhat risky.
10:54:18 <TabAtkinsTPAC> howcome: But it's a pretty small spec.
10:54:30 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: As long as it's achievable, I'm happy.  It's obviously stronger and better.
10:54:59 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: Firefox currently allows things we now say you must reject.
10:59:16 <TabAtkinsTPAC> RESOLVED: To go from CR to PR, require two full passes of the test suite for each category.
11:00:17 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: We've got gneral, useragent, authoring tool, font format categories.
11:00:48 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: For the authoring tools, what do we have?  We have fontforge, jonathan's tool, tal's tool.  That's 3 tools.
11:00:58 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: I suspect FontSquirrel might not work.
11:01:35 <TabAtkinsTPAC> Ask BitStream or Adam Penney if they have a woff authoring tool.
11:01:47 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jdaggett: Do we have strict requirements as to whethere the tools must be public?
11:01:56 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: Well, they need to be available.
11:02:58 <jfkthame_afk> s/Adam/Laurence/
11:03:04 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: So it sounds like we have CR exit criteria pinned down.
11:03:11 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: Should I take an action to start making tests?
11:03:21 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ACTION chrisl to get cracking on test suite.
11:03:21 <trackbot> Created ACTION-37 - Get cracking on test suite. [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-11-11].
11:03:49 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jdaggett: I'd like to be involved in getting/making the test fonts, so we can use them elsewhere, or reuse CSS fonts.
11:04:04 <TabAtkinsTPAC> action jdaggett to help with font creation for the test suite.
11:04:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-38 - Help with font creation for the test suite. [on John Daggett - due 2010-11-11].
11:06:34 <TabAtkinsTPAC> cslye: Is there interesting in having both TTF and OTF?
11:06:39 <TabAtkinsTPAC> cslye: I can help with the guts of otf.
11:07:05 <TabAtkinsTPAC> Vlad: Monotype provided a set of test fonts that are valid ttf fonts.
11:07:17 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: What's the license?
11:07:24 <TabAtkinsTPAC> Vlad: ISO license.
11:07:44 <TabAtkinsTPAC> Vlad: But it doesn't matter - we can give it to the W3C directly if needed.
11:08:01 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: It would be useful to hav a set of tests that involve "convert all these fonts" that exercise a bunch of features.
11:08:09 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: What about AAT and graphite?  They're also sfnt.
11:08:14 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jdaggett: I'm not sure eyou have testabl requirements.
11:08:58 <TabAtkinsTPAC> Vlad: We don't really care what tables are implemented in the font, just that *whatever* the tables are, they're also in WOFF.
11:09:05 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jdaggett: There's a real security problem here, though.  
11:09:32 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jdaggett: Especially on OSX, it's easier to cause exploitable system crashes with fonts, so we're not using the google sanitizer with a few tweaks.
11:09:43 <TabAtkinsTPAC> s/not/now/
11:10:16 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jdaggett: So private tables are dumped, as an unknown.
11:11:05 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jdaggett: But that happens *after* WOFF has been unpacked.
11:11:16 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: The UA is explicitly allowed to not decode all tables.
11:11:26 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: But we're talking about an authoring-tool requirement.
11:11:44 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jdaggett: My concern was that trying to test AAT fonts to see if they'r rendered correctly, they won't be.
11:11:56 <TabAtkinsTPAC> Vlad: But we can just test that the tables are present directly.
11:12:51 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jfkthame_afk: One ething we didn't address is that if a UA supports WOFF, they're required to support both OTF and CTF outlines packaged in WOFF.
11:13:13 <TabAtkinsTPAC> John: In LA we talked about reference to an iso level for conformance.
11:13:16 <jfkthame_afk> s/OTF/TTF/
11:13:20 <jfkthame_afk> s/CTF/CFF/
11:15:05 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jdaggett: OFF is a file format that covers an sfnt-like structure, it defines a set of tables, but a font could contain tables that arene't in the OFF spec.  Doees that make it not an OFF spec?
11:15:14 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jdaggett: The OFF spec just has a set of base tabls.
11:15:30 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jdaggett: And all these formats will have those base tables.
11:16:24 <TabAtkinsTPAC> Vlad: The MS site says that current OTF1.6 is indeed fully technically compliant with the ISO spec.
11:16:44 <TabAtkinsTPAC> John: They'll probably never diverge, but there's nothing technically requiring them to always converge.
11:17:07 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jdaggett: I think we should include CFF.  We're not a conformance spec, so it doesn't really matter if a particular UA supports them.
11:17:52 <TabAtkinsTPAC> Vlad: There has to be some basic level of behavior that you must have to pass.
11:18:53 <TabAtkinsTPAC> John: The professional design market, a large number of fonts marketed to them are CFF.
11:19:16 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jdaggett: Should we make it a requirement to support rendering both TTF and CFF?
11:19:19 <TabAtkinsTPAC> howcome: NO.
11:19:23 <TabAtkinsTPAC> s/NO/No/
11:19:37 <TabAtkinsTPAC> howcome: This is just a container; you can't start pointing into the container.
11:19:54 <TabAtkinsTPAC> John: A lot of UAs will be relying on system resources for font rendering.
11:20:20 <TabAtkinsTPAC> John: On desktop/laptops, that's probably not an issue for CFF.  But on mobile devices, the system may only provide support for TTF, or only unhinted TTF.
11:20:43 <TabAtkinsTPAC> Vlad: So establishing a minimal baseline, we can at least test that things work.
11:21:35 <TabAtkinsTPAC> howcome: We can use Ahem for that.
11:22:42 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jdaggett: I don't understand why we have a problem with requiring CFF support on the authoring tool.
11:22:54 <TabAtkinsTPAC> cslye: Is there anything that just compares the data bit-by-bit?
11:22:57 <TabAtkinsTPAC> Vlad: Yes.
11:23:28 <TabAtkinsTPAC> cslye: So the issue about rendering is mmot, right?
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11:24:11 <TabAtkinsTPAC> Vlad: No, we still need to test some rendering, to ensure that browsers successfully download and unpack.
11:24:45 <TabAtkinsTPAC> howcome: You can reftest it, by sending the bare font and the woff-packaged variant.
11:25:27 <TabAtkinsTPAC> Vlad: So on a mobile platform that doesn't support CFF...?
11:25:38 <TabAtkinsTPAC> TabAtkinsTPAC: They'd both fail to render, which is a pass for a reftest.
11:26:04 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: You can ask UAs for a form listing what they claim to implement.
11:26:26 <TabAtkinsTPAC> howcome: But as a browser vendor, can I make guarantees, when I'm relying on the system to do my rendering?
11:26:45 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: At the end of the day, authors are asking if CFF will work.
11:26:53 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jdaggett: And we're kind of implicitly saying no.
11:27:05 <TabAtkinsTPAC> cslye: I don't care if it doesn't render, I just care if it gets mangled or not.
11:27:30 <TabAtkinsTPAC> cslye: To ensure that theree's nothing unique in the format that makes it come out badly from the formatter.
11:27:53 <TabAtkinsTPAC> jdaggett: We can make tests that pass trivially if the UA dosn't support CFF, or passes if the UA does support CFF and correctly decodes.
11:28:10 <TabAtkinsTPAC> Vlad: There are several conformance levels for TTF.
11:30:44 <TabAtkinsTPAC> ChrisL: We plan to do LC at the next possibility, have a 4-week LC period ending around christmas, then do CR in January.
11:33:20 <Vlad> Adjourned, will continue in the joint CSS/SVG WG meeting
11:33:44 <Vlad> rrsagent, generate minutes
11:33:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-webfonts-minutes.html Vlad
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12:25:12 <Zakim> Team_(webfonts)07:58Z has now started
12:25:22 <Zakim> Team_(webfonts)07:58Z has ended
12:25:24 <Zakim> Attendees were 
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13:23:48 <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
13:23:48 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-webfonts-irc#T13-23-48
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16:14:27 <Zakim> ChrisL, you asked to be reminded at this time to go home
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