08:10:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
08:10:09 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-forms-irc
08:10:17 <Steven> rrsagent, make logs public
08:10:33 <Steven> Meeting: Forms WG FtF, TPAC Lyon, Day 3
08:10:35 <Steven> Chair: Steve
08:10:42 <Steven> s/Steve/Steven
08:11:20 <Steven> zakim, room for 5 for 240 mins?
08:11:26 <Zakim> ok, Steven; conference Team_(forms)08:11Z scheduled with code 26633 (CONF3) for 240 minutes until 1211Z
08:12:17 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Code is CONF3 (26633)
09:10:05 <unl> unl has joined #forms
09:12:26 <Steven> in 15 mins we are going for coffee
09:50:57 <unl> unl has joined #forms
09:57:01 <nick> nick has joined #forms
09:57:50 <Steven> Steven has joined #forms
10:00:27 <beverloo> beverloo has joined #forms
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10:17:59 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #forms
10:18:08 <Steven> zakim, this will be CONF3
10:18:08 <Zakim> ok, Steven; I see Team_(forms)08:11Z scheduled to start 127 minutes ago
10:18:13 <alain> alain has joined #forms
10:18:29 <Steven> I think so Uli (re your earlier question)
10:19:03 <Steven> The question seems to be down to - Is 'existence' of a control an implementation decision, or do you need to be able to control it
10:19:23 <Steven> and "how do you control presentation in a well-defined way"
10:19:50 <unl> Ok, thanks. I see. I'm just reading the minutes.
10:20:02 <Steven> Eric thinks that there is something fundamental about visibility different from other sorts of presentation, but he hasn't convinced me yet
10:20:18 <Steven> The minutes are rather porr because we were all talking, and forgetting to write down what we said
10:21:00 <Steven> I'm getting more and more enthusiastic about something along the lines of the 'property' mip that I posted to the list
10:21:22 <unl> Yes, I like that too.
10:21:39 <Steven> It is very easy to implement, and hooks into lots of other mechanisms in current implementations
10:22:11 <Steven> @class is very general in XHTML, and is used by lots of sub-processors.
10:22:24 <unl> I am, however, not convinced that all combinations of visible/not and evented/not make sense.
10:23:14 <unl> Especially, I'm concerned regarding John's use case of something being not visible but evented.
10:23:38 <Steven> Well that seems to be the case that they want to catch
10:24:07 <Steven> John mentions wizards where part of the wizard is not visible, but they want to catch invalid events on controls in it
10:24:46 <unl> Yes, but I consider it problematic. I think it is bad or at least insufficient ui design.
10:25:26 <Steven> Well, I agree, but...
10:25:41 <unl> What happens, e.g. when you have a modal message becoming active through some event in a non-selected case?
10:26:04 <Steven> I think John has a use case that collects in a separate subdisplay things that still need to be corrected (even if not visible)
10:26:21 <Steven> Well, good point Uli
10:26:23 <windauer> windauer has joined #forms
10:26:30 <Steven> Welcom Lars
10:26:35 <windauer> Hello everyone
10:26:42 <unl> Hi Lars
10:26:50 <Steven> Present: Steven, Uli, Nick, LarsWindauer
10:28:46 <unl> Steven, I see John's point, but I think his use case could be solved by adding a summary page including the option to correct invalid inputs at the of the wizard.
10:29:40 <Steven> Personally, I think the invalidity should show up on the control you are changing, and not on one you have already entered, but maybe that's asking too much
10:30:00 <unl> Yes, I agree completely
10:30:41 <Steven> i/I think so Uli/Scribe: no-one
10:30:49 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
10:30:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-forms-minutes.html Steven
10:31:28 <unl> I feel the problem may have its root in that we are saying a non-selected case is the same like a non-relevant group. Maybe that's plain wrong.
10:33:39 <unl> It is inconsistent anyway: You are allowed to style non-relevant groups the way you like, e.g. greyed-out, but a non-selected case should be hidden from presentation at any rate
10:36:10 <unl> Steven, do you know when John, Leigh and Erik might join so we can discuss that further?
10:37:23 <Steven> Not exactly sure.
10:37:27 <Steven> I think round lunch time
10:38:06 <unl> Ok
10:38:24 <unl> I'm eager to solve that puzzle ;)
10:58:11 <Steven> Me too!
10:58:30 <Steven> And I can think lots of ways I can use the 'property' mip, so I've got myself all excited
10:58:45 <unl> Yeah
11:00:49 <unl> Honestly, I don't follow John's critic on property mip vs. generic mip. A generic mip mechanism might be good for implementors, but not for authors.
11:30:36 <nick> nick has joined #forms
11:57:06 <windauer> windauer has joined #forms
11:58:07 <windauer> Steven, Nick and me are having lunch. We'll be back at 2
12:06:47 <klotz> klotz has joined #forms
12:08:12 <klotz> zakim, code?
12:08:12 <Zakim> the conference code is 26633 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), klotz
12:10:13 <windauer> windauer has joined #forms
12:12:45 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #forms
12:13:09 <John_Boyer> zakim, code?
12:13:09 <Zakim> the conference code is hidden, John_Boyer
12:14:00 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make minutes
12:14:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer
12:25:53 <John_Boyer> neither from tuesday works
12:29:19 <windauer> @Leigh: nope :-)
12:29:26 <unl> unl has joined #forms
12:30:58 <klotz> Hi Lars.
12:31:12 <klotz> Hi Uli.
12:31:16 <klotz> Hi John.
12:31:39 <unl> Good morning, Leigh!
12:31:46 <John_Boyer> hi :-)
12:32:07 <unl> Good morning, John!
12:40:27 <Steven> Hi, we're mostly back here
12:40:53 <John_Boyer> Steven, the code is hidden
12:41:00 <nick> hi
12:41:00 <Steven> zakim, room for 5 for 240 mins?
12:41:03 <Zakim> ok, Steven; conference Team_(forms)12:41Z scheduled with code 26633 (CONF3) for 240 minutes until 1641Z
12:41:29 <Steven> Not any more John
12:41:40 <John_Boyer> :-)
12:41:44 <Steven> Present+John
12:41:50 <windauer_> windauer_ has joined #forms
12:42:10 <Zakim> Team_(forms)12:41Z has now started
12:42:12 <windauer> windauer has joined #forms
12:42:23 <Steven> zakim, dial roseraie_2
12:42:23 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
12:42:34 <John_Boyer> I'm in
12:42:55 <klotz> zakim, code?
12:42:55 <Zakim> the conference code is 26633 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), klotz
12:43:30 <Steven> Present+Leigh
12:43:40 <John_Boyer> zakim, who is here?
12:43:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
12:43:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see windauer, unl, John_Boyer, klotz, nick, alain, Zakim, beverloo, Steven, RRSAgent, trackbot
12:43:52 <klotz> zakim, who is here?
12:43:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
12:43:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see windauer, unl, John_Boyer, klotz, nick, alain, Zakim, beverloo, Steven, RRSAgent, trackbot
12:44:18 <Steven> i/Scribe:/Scribenick:no-one
12:44:24 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
12:44:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-forms-minutes.html Steven
12:45:34 <nick> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_1.1_in_Wiki
12:45:41 <nick> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/The_XForms_Dialog_Module
12:45:52 <nick> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/The_XForms_Transform_Function_Module
12:46:11 <nick> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/The_XForms_Function_Library_Module
12:46:28 <Steven> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Category:XForms12
12:47:37 <klotz> status for The_XForms_Dialog_Module says it is the transform function...
12:48:11 <nick> Here is a readme on how to create a new module http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/CreateNewSpecModule
12:48:14 <klotz> ditto for library module.
12:48:45 <Steven> 80 missing id's in the spec have to be added
12:49:44 <Steven> The XML Events attributes are foreign attributes and therefore are allowed on any XForms element that includes the Common attributes. This specification lists both Common and Events attributes on XForms actions for reading convenience, i.e. since authors are most likely to place Events attributes on the actual event handler elements.
12:50:12 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_1.1_in_Wiki#Common_Attributes
12:51:02 <John_Boyer> Section 3.2.1?
12:51:16 <Steven> Yes
13:01:43 <unl> zakim, mute me
13:01:43 <Zakim> sorry, unl, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
13:05:27 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
13:06:33 <Steven> zakim, who is on the phone?
13:06:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
13:07:12 <Steven> Zakim, I am no one
13:07:13 <Zakim> I don't understand 'I am no one', Steven
13:07:16 <raman> raman has joined #forms
13:07:24 <Steven> Present+Raman
13:08:08 <raman> Steven, am in the MMIWG now St Claire 2) -- could you pick me up at your next break and I'll come to forms?
13:10:02 <Steven> Sure
13:10:48 <Steven> zakim, bye
13:10:48 <Zakim> Zakim has left #forms
13:10:55 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #forms
13:11:03 <Steven> zakim, this is conf3
13:11:03 <Zakim> ok, Steven; that matches Team_(forms)12:41Z
13:11:08 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
13:11:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
13:11:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see raman, ebruchez, windauer, unl, John_Boyer, klotz, nick, alain, beverloo, Steven, RRSAgent, trackbot
13:11:15 <Steven> Curses
13:11:56 <ebruchez> hi Lars
13:13:02 <Steven> Topic: Visibility/Existence/Events or the UI Lifecycle
13:14:03 <nick> scribe: nick
13:15:21 <nick> Steven: I send a strawman
13:15:23 <nick>   <bind ref="sum" property="if(.<0, 'negative', '')"/>                  ...                  <output ref="sum"><label>Total: </label></output>  
13:15:28 <nick>   with CSS:                     output.negative {color: red}  
13:16:00 <nick> John_Boyer: If we are going to add MIPs we should also look what we have done already related to custom MIPs
13:16:45 <nick> John_Boyer: (work done in bind model, with an element based approach)
13:17:00 <nick> Steven: custom MIPs is currently not in for XForms 1.2
13:17:30 <nick> John_Boyer: We should revisit our triage for XForms 1.2
13:17:48 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org//MarkUp/Forms/specs/XForms1.2/modules/model/bind/index-all.html#N65990
13:19:39 <nick> ebruchez: I see the benefit of  the custom MIPs 
13:21:53 <nick> ebruchez: you can do the switch case (with all cases relevant, and only one visible) with the custom MIPs but the visibility wouldn't be in an  interopable way 
13:22:27 <nick> unl: I don't agree because in voice hidden doesn't exists
13:23:07 <unl> s/hidden/visibility/
13:23:23 <Steven> q+
13:23:46 <nick> ebruchez: nobody knows what relevance means in the UI, we are discussing it for 3 FtF meetings, I just want to say that a part of the form isn't there, because it shouldn't be available for the user
13:24:09 <nick> Steven: Would something like a model driven switch case do it for you?
13:25:31 <John_Boyer> q+
13:25:49 <nick> Steven: the fact of being accessible should not only  be done using css
13:26:38 <nick> ebruchez: I want model based switching (it is not about names it is about what it does)
13:27:11 <nick> ebruchez: the group thing is hack to make parts of the form unavailable
13:28:06 <unl> q+
13:28:13 <nick> ebruchez: we need a way to control both relevance and visibility of a control
13:28:33 <nick> ebruchez: both with a simple condition
13:29:05 <nick> ebruchez: we want it both in the UI and the model (controlling the relevance and visibility)
13:30:32 <John_Boyer> zakim, ack me
13:30:32 <Zakim> I see Steven, unl on the speaker queue
13:31:13 <nick> ebruchez: it needs to cover the full matrix (relevance, visibility, events)
13:32:37 <nick> John_Boyer: visibility (available for presentation, available for styling) <-> the other thing is availability for eventing system
13:33:46 <nick> John_Boyer: currently it is always available for the rendering engine (visibility), because relevance only impacts availability for eventing system (non-relevant controls can be styled)
13:34:46 <nick> unl: representing non-relevant controls may be wrong
13:35:48 <klotz> http://xmltoday.org/2010/11/options-for-xml-2-0/
13:37:32 <John_Boyer> non-relevant says UI control is "unavailable" for interaction.  Default stying is non-visible, but could be styled as not only not visible but display none, or it could be styled as disabled
13:37:59 <nick> John_Boyer: calling 'not being able to the render engine' visibility is wrong
13:38:13 <nick> John_Boyer: you have three options
13:38:32 <Steven> Awarable
13:38:38 <nick> 1) not getting any events (relevant)
13:38:54 <nick> 2) styled not available (grayed out)
13:39:04 <nick> 3) fully available
13:39:36 <nick> klotz: that's why I called it presentable
13:40:27 <nick> ebruchez: how does presentable works?That's how Johns non-relevant works
13:40:45 <nick> ebruchez: John wants to style non-relevant controls
13:41:14 <nick> Steven: we need to agree on what we want to solve
13:41:19 <John_Boyer> presentable and eventable => relevant; presentable and not eventable => non-relevant; not presentable and eventable => missing; not presentable and not eventable => missing
13:42:56 <nick> klotz: Do we need all 4 posibilities
13:43:03 <nick> ?
13:43:25 <nick> John_Boyer: Erik wants/needs the presentable and eventable
13:44:35 <Steven> q-
13:44:40 <unl> q-
13:46:29 <nick> nick: We need 'not presentable and eventable' for a tab view
13:47:19 <nick> unl: with should make it possible to make non selected cases 'available'
13:48:06 <nick> ebruchez: we should specify/look what all these 4 cases mean for all controls and if we need them
13:48:23 <unl> s/with should make it possible to make non selected cases 'available'/the problem might be that non-selected cases are defined as non-relevant, maybe we should change that/
13:48:54 <windauer> @unl: +1 
13:50:59 <nick> ebruchez: for layout you should be able to layout the non selected cases to be able to compute the height of a tab view
13:51:53 <nick> ebruchez: the only difference between relevance of a group is that in the tab view we want the events in the non-selected cases
13:52:57 <nick> ebruchez: for performance you want to be able to say that non relevant things aren't available (in big forms you may want to prune non relevant things) 
13:54:15 <nick> ebruchez: I'm not yet proposing this, but we may want an extra MIP to control what happens with the 'non available' groups of controls (group, case,..)
13:56:18 <nick> John_Boyer: Using groups for model based switch is wrong, only the programmer knows which groups are related
13:57:21 <nick> John_Boyer: adding something to switch to handle the non selected cases
13:58:12 <nick> Steven: I came up with the terms 'active' and 'present'
13:59:22 <nick> John_Boyer: currently in XForms 1.1 you can't control presentability 
14:01:14 <nick> ebruchez: non-relevant = inactive and present
14:01:28 <John_Boyer> presentable or not presentable; eventable and not eventable
14:01:33 <nick> John_Boyer: wait that is not my understanding of active
14:02:12 <John_Boyer> presentable is available to the render engine; it may be styled as visible or not visible but whether visible or not it is *presentable*
14:02:43 <John_Boyer> eventable is whether or not it is hooked up to the eventing system
14:02:56 <John_Boyer> relevant is eventable; non-relevant is non-eventable
14:03:30 <nick> ebruchez: we need more then non being eventable (do they update when values change)
14:03:48 <John_Boyer> what does "active" versus "inactive" mean relative to the above?
14:04:30 <nick> John_Boyer: what does inactive mean
14:04:57 <nick> ebruchez: inactive: a little more then eventable
14:05:18 <nick> ebruchez: then we can say inactive and present
14:05:50 <nick> ebruchez: inactive means doesn't gets events, doesn't updates it internal state
14:06:09 <unl> active = eventable = relevant
14:06:26 <unl> s/active = eventable = relevant/active = eventable = relevant = enabled/
14:06:38 <nick> John_Boyer: we should clearly identify the 4 boxes
14:07:18 <nick> John_Boyer: what does inactive mean
14:07:37 <nick> ebruchez: the opposite of active
14:08:41 <John_Boyer> inactive = presented and not eventable
14:08:58 <Steven> ACTIVE
14:08:59 <ebruchez> active is orthogonal to present
14:09:06 <Steven> Y   |   N
14:10:28 <nick> John_Boyer: relevant= present AND non-eventable
14:10:53 <nick> John_Boyer: non-relevant == present AND eventable
14:10:56 <John_Boyer> active == relevant -> presentable and eventable; inactive == non-relevant -> presentable and not eventable
14:12:25 <ebruchez> relevant == active and presentable; non-relevant == inactive and presentable
14:13:38 <nick> active = eventable + update state
14:14:27 <Steven> Active              Y       |    N            ------------------------          Y | Relevant | Non-relevant Present  |----------+-------------        N | ?        | ?
14:15:00 <Steven> Active
14:15:30 <Steven> |                 Active  |            Y       |    N  |          ------------------------   |       Y | Relevant | Non-relevant |Present  |----------+------------- |       N | ?        | ?
14:15:47 <Steven> |                 Active
14:15:58 <Steven> |            Y       |    N
14:16:09 <Steven> |          ------------------------
14:16:20 <Steven> |       Y | Relevant | Non-relevant
14:16:30 <Steven> |Present  |----------+-------------
14:16:38 <Steven> |       N | ?        | ?
14:20:34 <nick> ebruchez: it needs to be seen if we want non active controls not to have there values to be updated 
14:22:15 <nick> ebruchez: it might be interesting to go back to Use Cases 
14:22:45 <raman> coffee break?
14:22:49 <nick> ebruchez: What is the expectation when you style non-relevant controls as visible
14:23:33 <bubbles> bubbles has joined #forms
14:24:35 <nick> nick: John what does your implementation do
14:27:06 <Steven> s/do/do?
14:27:29 <nick> John_Boyer: the control is styled grayed out, the values do update, not sure about if validity is updated
14:33:35 <nick> John_Boyer: the control is styled grayed out, the values do update, it does show help, hints and alerts, and validity is updated 
14:36:24 <John_Boyer>             <xforms:model>
14:36:26 <John_Boyer>                <xforms:instance>
14:36:28 <John_Boyer>                   <data xmlns="">
14:36:29 <John_Boyer>                      <f1></f1>
14:36:31 <John_Boyer>                      <f2></f2>
14:36:33 <John_Boyer>                   </data>
14:36:34 <John_Boyer>                </xforms:instance>
14:36:36 <John_Boyer>                <xforms:bind nodeset="f2" constraint=". > 5" relevant="false()" calculate="../f1 + 1"/>
14:36:38 <John_Boyer>             </xforms:model>
14:36:44 <John_Boyer>          <xforms:input ref="f1">
14:36:45 <John_Boyer>             <xforms:label>F1</xforms:label>
14:36:47 <John_Boyer>          </xforms:input>
14:37:03 <John_Boyer>          <xforms:input ref="f2">
14:37:05 <John_Boyer>             <xforms:label>F2 (constraint valid if greater than 5; calculate one more than F1)</xforms:label>
14:37:06 <John_Boyer>             <xforms:hint>Hint</xforms:hint>
14:37:08 <John_Boyer>             <xforms:alert>Alert</xforms:alert>
14:37:09 <John_Boyer>          </xforms:input>
14:38:15 <John_Boyer> In the above, the input bound to f2 is styled as visible, at which point the host language (XFDL) forces the disabled style to ensure the control is "unavailable" for user interaction
14:39:33 <John_Boyer> s/<f1>/<f1>3
14:40:30 <John_Boyer> With f1 having the starting value 3, the calculate on f2 produces a 4 on startup.  The input bound to the non-relevant node f2 shows the value 4, since that is what is in the data model
14:41:14 <John_Boyer> The input bound to non-relevant node f2 indicates that the value is not valid since the model constraint is not satisified
14:42:47 <John_Boyer> If the user gestures at the control with the mouse, the user sees an ephemeral "tooltip" window contains Alert in red and Hint in black, reflecting the metadata values for xforms:hint and xforms:alert
14:44:30 <John_Boyer> If the user changes the value of f1 using the first input to 5, then the node f2 is recalculated (despite being non-relevant) and takes the value 6.  The UI reflects the state of the model, so the input bound to non-relevant node f2 is updated to show a 6, and its countenance changes to reflect the fact the constraint MIP is now satisfied
14:52:27 <Steven> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:52:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
14:52:41 <unl> zakim, you are kaputt
14:52:41 <Zakim> I don't understand 'you are kaputt', unl
14:53:54 <Steven> zakim, I am no one
14:53:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'I am no one', Steven
14:53:59 <Steven> zakim, no one is me
14:53:59 <Zakim> I don't understand 'no one is me', Steven
14:54:07 <Steven> zakim, I am no-one
14:54:07 <Zakim> sorry, Steven, I do not see a party named 'no-one'
14:54:07 <John_Boyer> zakim, code?
14:54:09 <Zakim> the conference code is 26633 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), John_Boyer
14:54:32 <Steven> zakim, zakim is stupid
14:54:32 <Zakim> sorry, Steven, I do not recognize a party named 'zakim'
14:54:38 <Steven> lol
14:54:43 <John_Boyer> zakim, you are impatient
14:54:43 <Zakim> I don't understand 'you are impatient', John_Boyer
14:54:57 <Steven> zakim, steven is zakim
14:54:57 <Zakim> sorry, Steven, I do not recognize a party named 'steven'
14:55:00 <klotz> zakim, why does the porridge bird lay its egg in the air?
14:55:03 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, klotz.
14:55:13 <klotz> zakim, close b close mode.
14:55:13 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close b close mode', klotz
14:56:25 <unl> zakim, read http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/81257 to answer Leigh's question
14:56:25 <Zakim> I don't understand you, unl
15:02:36 <alain1> alain1 has joined #forms
15:03:58 <Steven> Topic: Load and Embed
15:04:06 <alain1> alain1 has joined #forms
15:04:13 <windauer>             <xf:load show="embed" targetid="xforms">
15:04:13 <windauer>                 <xf:resource value="'GroupVerticalTableComplex.xhtml#xforms'"/>
15:04:13 <windauer>             </xf:load>
15:04:50 <nick> windauer: The idea is to load a subform in a running form 
15:05:09 <windauer> <div id="xforms">
15:05:48 <nick> windauer: we use the show="embed" and will insert the form at the place of the targetid
15:06:38 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Load_Embedding
15:06:41 <nick> nick: is the new form still part of the parent form
15:06:59 <nick> windauer: yes it is still part of the parent form
15:07:32 <nick> windauer: we also introduced embed="none" to unload the form
15:07:58 <klotz> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2009Jun/0022.html
15:08:09 <nick> klotz: I thought joern gave up on it
15:08:31 <nick> windauer: he felt miss understood about his point so droipped
15:08:41 <nick> s/droipped/dropped/
15:09:00 <nick> nick: does it has it owns model
15:09:01 <unl> s/miss understood/misunderstood/
15:09:38 <nick> windauer: it can only have UI markup and bind to the instances and models in the parent form, but it also could have its own model
15:10:27 <nick> windauer: we have model to model communication using submissions to another instance in another model
15:11:16 <nick> nick: to be clear the models of the subform become top level
15:11:54 <nick> windauer: yes all models are at the same level
15:13:07 <nick> windauer: we were thinking of a kind of security to specify what models can submit to what models/instances
15:14:19 <nick> windauer: we didn't use XBL2 because we didn't want to introduce another specification, the orbeon work with XBL2 looked also good
15:17:43 <nick> windauer: we use it for performance to only load what is necessary, usually we have a master form with a master instance and the master form loads the relevant sub-form when needed (and unloads it when no longer needed)
15:19:41 <nick> klotz: you can omit the inter model communication if you have a server, the subform can do a submit, signal the parent form and then the parent form can do a get to get the data from the server
15:20:07 <nick> klotz: you could bypass the server part by submitting to a submission in the parent form
15:20:56 <windauer> instanceOfModel('model-1','i-default')/vehicle/carMake
15:22:13 <nick> <insert nodeset="instance('super-model', 'instance-id')" origin="instance('subform-instance')"/>
15:26:41 <nick> klotz: I think that the model to model communication is a different feature from the load embed feature
15:26:57 <nick> Steven: The one makes the other more usefull
15:28:06 <nick> windauer: the two are separate things in my opnion
15:29:14 <nick> klotz: I like to come on closure on the load proposal and not yet on the model to model communication 
15:30:19 <nick> klotz: there is a trivial version of the model to model communication using the server (see above) we could even shortcut the need of a server, or even invent a better way...
15:30:44 <nick> klotz: I don't like the unload
15:31:04 <nick> klotz: I don't like the none 
15:33:19 <nick> klotz: we need to discuss the life cycle of the model if the new form model, and the uniqueness of the id's 
15:33:39 <nick> windauer: we dispatch model-construct-done
15:34:23 <nick> windauer: xforms-ready is sent
15:34:31 <nick> klotz: what is the target
15:36:37 <nick> nick: side question, what does it do when the target div is inside a repeat
15:36:52 <nick> klotz: what is the event sequence
15:37:36 <nick> windauer: it is only xforms-model-construct, xforms-model-construct-done and xforms-ready
15:38:51 <nick> klotz: xforms-ready is then dispatched multiple times
15:39:27 <nick> nick: maybe xforms-subform-ready
15:40:11 <nick> John_Boyer: you use it to set the focus en the selected case
15:40:26 <nick> klotz: it could be targeted to the new model
15:40:35 <John_Boyer> setfocus or toggle or setindex
15:41:11 <nick> nick: what if you have multiple models
15:41:46 <nick> klotz: it could be dispatched to the first model of the sub-form
15:43:13 <nick> After all form controls have been initialized and all xforms-model-construct-done events have been processed, an xforms-ready event is dispatched to each model element.
15:43:57 <nick> klotz: should we only dispatch the events to the new models
15:44:00 <nick> John_Boyer: yes
15:44:26 <nick> klotz: unload needs some more thinking
15:46:30 <nick> nick: you can do it with a URI that points to an empty element
15:46:41 <nick> <div id="empty"/>
15:47:01 <windauer> <xf:load show="embed" targetid="idWhereToLoad" />
15:47:10 <windauer> <xf:load show="destroy" targetid="idWhereToLoad" />
15:47:23 <nick> <xf:load show="embed' target="target" resource="#empty"/>
15:48:54 <Steven> <xf:unload targetid="wherever"/>
15:49:15 <nick> klotz: what is the resource of the detstory
15:49:29 <nick> windauer: we don't need it
15:50:32 <klotz> <h1 id="foo">Hi</h1> ... <unload target="foo" />
15:50:35 <nick> klotz: what does it do when it is dispatched to an id where nothing is ever been loaded
15:54:18 <nick> nick: what happens when you unload another part of the form (e.g.: a model, instance, part of the UI), what happens when you load in an instance, model,....
15:55:24 <nick> nick: I think we should only load into somewhere in the UI part, and unload should only load what it has loaded
15:55:35 <nick> klotz: you should be able to unload itself
15:56:10 <nick> John_Boyer: now we can already dispatch model-destruct to eachself
15:57:35 <nick> John_Boyer: the interesting part is what happens if the unload itself is followed by setvalue?
15:58:10 <nick> John_Boyer: what if an author does an unload followed by a load of the same target
15:59:07 <nick> nick: unloading yourself and loading back into yourself is an edge case
16:01:31 <nick> John_Boyer: when you unload yourself the actions will stop to run
16:01:58 <nick> John_Boyer: so you won't be able to load something again in yourself
16:02:12 <nick> John_Boyer: you could use a load action to yourself, that is ok
16:02:22 <John_Boyer> so if you're unloading use unload, but if you're reloading, then just use load and not unload.
16:02:38 <John_Boyer> then we're ok to have models unload themselves
16:04:52 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Load_Embedding
16:08:46 <windauer> http://betterform.wordpress.com/2010/08/16/using-subforms-with-betterform/
16:13:03 <klotz> I added Lar's link above to http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Load_Embedding#Previous_Discussion
16:13:15 <klotz> and we will be looking forward to a fuller proposal from him on www-forms.
16:13:55 <nick> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/CreateNewSpecModule
16:19:11 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:19:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-forms-minutes.html Steven
16:20:58 <Steven> Present+Erik
16:21:04 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:21:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-forms-minutes.html Steven
16:25:20 <Zakim> Team_(forms)12:41Z has ended
16:25:21 <Zakim> Attendees were 
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