07:11:27 RRSAgent has joined #tpac 07:11:27 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/03-tpac-irc 07:12:33 Zakim, call Forum_2 07:12:33 sorry, Jean-Gui, I don't know what conference this is 07:13:31 Vagner-br has joined #tpac 07:14:38 anne has joined #tpac 07:15:25 martin has joined #tpac 07:15:56 hsivonen has joined #tpac 07:23:26 burn has joined #tpac 07:25:12 myakura has joined #tpac 07:26:38 Wuk has joined #TPAC 07:26:39 ddeutsch has joined #tpac 07:26:48 karen has joined #tpac 07:26:58 Nobu has joined #tpac 07:27:20 jeanne has joined #tpac 07:27:35 bubbles has joined #tpac 07:27:38 glazou has joined #tpac 07:27:39 DenisBoulay has joined #tpac 07:27:55 sylvaing has joined #tpac 07:28:02 dsr has joined #tpac 07:28:38 shawn has joined #tpac 07:28:43 jun has joined #tpac 07:28:43 burnsy has joined #tpac 07:28:53 marie has joined #tpac 07:28:54 kaz has joined #tpac 07:29:11 pchampin has joined #tpac 07:29:15 Vagner-br has joined #tpac 07:29:26 ilkka has joined #tpac 07:29:29 Kangchan has joined #tpac 07:29:36 Roger has joined #tpac 07:29:40 claudio has joined #tpac 07:29:43 paulc has joined #tpac 07:29:46 Norm has joined #tpac 07:29:47 MichaelC_ has joined #tpac 07:29:57 Please, fill the WBS form and give us feedback 07:30:01 sven_b has joined #tpac 07:30:01 meeting: Technical Plenary 07:30:03 rigo has joined #tpac 07:30:05 scribe: amy 07:30:18 agenda: http://www.w3.org/2010/11/TPAC/PlenaryAgenda 07:30:31 masinter` has joined #tpac 07:30:41 Topic: Integration 07:30:41 Noah: as Jeff said, the theme for this session is integration 07:31:03 sasan has joined #tpac 07:31:14 kojiishi has joined #tpac 07:31:16 jeff has joined #tpac 07:31:24 ArtB has joined #tpac 07:31:32 ... one other thing. Many of you know I am chair of the TAG. It is the senior technical body responsible for the web. The reason I mention this is that 5 of our 9 members are chosen by election. This year 3 are up for election. Having you choose the best people is important to our success. 07:31:40 martin has joined #tpac 07:31:42 Luca has joined #tpac 07:31:55 mnot has joined #tpac 07:31:59 ... it's always the case when I hear someone says "you should work on security," I think "do we have security experts on the TAG." 07:32:25 anne has joined #tpac 07:32:29 danielp_ has joined #tpac 07:32:43 libby has joined #tpac 07:32:45 ... skills which are needed are both technical ones and integration. we also need to solve real problems for real people. we need people who can work well with others (and who can also write) 07:33:13 Steven has joined #tpac 07:33:27 Nobu has left #tpac 07:33:40 ... it's important we have a good slate of strong candidates. Current or former TAG are here, I encourage you to speak to them, and to look at the TAG pages. Raman asked me to say that he is one of the incumbents who is not running. You'd be welcome to speak to him 07:33:47 ted has joined #tpac 07:34:00 pchampin has joined #tpac 07:34:02 pererik has joined #tpac 07:34:19 youenn has joined #tpac 07:34:31 lgombos_w has joined #tpac 07:34:36 marengo has joined #tpac 07:34:45 windauer has joined #tpac 07:34:54 johnjan has joined #tpac 07:35:10 ... our first speaker is Jeni Tennison. The Semantic Web has had increasing success in government, etc. The SW has not seemed to reach the same velocity as early web. We've invited Jeni as she's one of people that the smartest, most tasteful people look up to 07:35:19 davy has joined #tpac 07:35:23 Kangchan has joined #tpac 07:35:26 mgylling has joined #tpac 07:35:32 nick has joined #tpac 07:35:33 MikeSmith has joined #tpac 07:35:37 timbl has joined #TPAC 07:35:40 -> http://www.w3.org/2010/11/TPAC/RDF-SW-velocity.pdf Slides: RDF and Semantic Web: can we reach escape velocity? 07:35:41 Jeni: Thank you for that kind introduction. One of my roles is that I am the linked data advisor on Linked Data gov.uk 07:35:43 zakim, code? 07:35:43 sorry, jeanne, I don't know what conference this is 07:35:54 koalie has joined #tpac 07:36:22 .... I'm not an SW evangelist. Years ago I thought SW was a pipe dream. Now I view my role as making sure not just to used linked data "because Tim Berners-Lee says so". I want to make sure that RDF works. 07:36:26 sylvaing has joined #tpac 07:36:38 ... I don't particularly care whether RDF or SW reach escape velocity. I care whether data is useful. 07:36:55 ... working with government sites is like working with the WWW but with more committees 07:37:11 ... I'll explain what i see as the hurdles, and where the community and W3C should focus 07:37:30 ... I've taken this as an excuse to have a bit of a rant and say things i wouldn't normally say to people's faces 07:37:40 adam has joined #tpac 07:37:45 lbolstad has joined #tpac 07:37:54 raphael has joined #tpac 07:38:04 ... the world is very different from 10 years ago when I said SW wouldn't work. there is a lot of effort to use data in many ways 07:38:18 ... many of these uses, visualization, they're like pre-web. no way to go deeper into the data 07:38:22 eliot has joined #tpac 07:38:32 dvdeurse has joined #tpac 07:38:38 paoloba has joined #tpac 07:38:41 dom has changed the topic to: TPAC Plenary day http://www.w3.org/2010/11/TPAC/PlenaryAgenda | Back channel in #tpac-chat 07:38:41 pauld has joined #tpac 07:38:44 zakim, list 07:38:44 I see no active conferences and none scheduled to start in the next 15 minutes 07:38:51 wonsuk has joined #tpac 07:38:52 ... I think we're heading toward a world where we'll want deeper interaction with data. "data you can click on" (a Stuart Williams phrase) will be useful 07:38:58 Roger has joined #tpac 07:39:09 ... However, just because you can get a hold of data doesn't mean you can use it 07:39:11 shepazu has joined #tpac 07:39:15 shawn has joined #tpac 07:39:17 ... (shows excel on crime data) 07:39:22 adrianba has joined #tpac 07:39:57 plinss_ has joined #tpac 07:40:04 ... What do these rows relate to? what is the definition of an acquaintance? what we often find with gov data is that the data is available but how you interpret it is hidden so there's no way of finding what it means 07:40:37 Norm has joined #tpac 07:40:51 ... also, to understand changes we need either links or implicit information. to get deeper interaction we need more sources 07:41:18 nick has joined #tpac 07:41:41 ... RDF is a good approach to tackle these challenges. identifying things with URIs helps in several ways. you can create mashups which link to things. you can also get extra info at the link, extra context 07:41:49 claudio_ has joined #tpac 07:41:52 Ralph has joined #tpac 07:42:00 ... you get a value model that lets you combine extra value w/out terms, end user agreements, etc 07:42:20 ... The other thing is that info with URIs can be referenced not copied. For e.g.: BBC uses wikipedia 07:42:49 sasan has joined #tpac 07:42:50 ... There are huge opportunities for the reference vs. copy info. Prevents out of date info too. Referencing using URIs is increasingly familiar 07:42:56 yongil_jang has joined #tpac 07:43:08 raman has joined #tpac 07:43:11 ... Why is it that RDF is not being used? Let's see what developers say 07:43:15 francois has joined #tpac 07:43:35 ... I was delighted that the Guardian data blog "it's not great fun learning to develop with the semantic web today" 07:43:49 ... i'm going to try to put myself in dev shoes and see why not 07:44:03 ... (shows RDF stack) it even looks like it's going to fall over on you 07:44:22 ... they get to see the ugliest syntax first. They think they have to use OWL 07:44:41 ... none for this is really true but it's what people assume when they think they have to start here 07:45:04 burn has joined #tpac 07:45:08 callie_ has joined #TPAC 07:45:12 shan has joined #tpac 07:45:24 ... If you're consuming this data, is it fun and attractive? if you compare to JSON, there's an easy map. there are parsers on every platform. even on XML there are standard APIs and simple path languages like CSS 07:45:31 davy has joined #tpac 07:45:43 Nobu has joined #tpac 07:45:47 ... The RDF situation is different. there are multiple syntaxes (lists names) 07:46:03 Yves has joined #tpac 07:46:25 great slides. 07:46:29 ... It's really hard to know as a publisher what to target and as a developer to know what to expect. There's no standard API to use in code, there's no path language. SPARQL is as close as you get but this is just another language for people to learn. 07:46:33 and great point. 07:46:37 janina has joined #tpac 07:46:38 ... as a consumer of data it's not fun to use 07:46:51 youenn has joined #tpac 07:46:52 ... Another question. Is it painless, is it likely to go wrong? 07:47:08 Ian has joined #tpac 07:47:11 libby_ has joined #tpac 07:47:17 marengo_ has joined #tpac 07:47:20 ... Generally if you're generating RDF from another structure, you're using technologies like trying to use string concatenation 07:47:21 plh has joined #tpac 07:47:32 ... there are a vast array of formats, difficult to use 07:48:17 ... Microdata, new proposal is quite verbose. look at RDFa, using a single vocabulary, having to fudge between languages 07:48:24 freedom has joined #tpac 07:48:41 ... I've covered the issues, now I"ll look at what we should do 07:49:01 ... if Developers are going to be persuaded to work with RDF, RDF needs to meet them 07:49:09 ... we need easy to follow recipes 07:49:23 ... we need to focus on the benefits that can be brought to end users 07:49:35 ... we need to be able to reach behind a visualization for the source of data 07:50:11 igarashi has joined #tpac 07:50:15 ... we need to make sure that using RDF increases the value of data, that it gives the ability to control context. a good argument for gov 07:50:24 ... the more people who use it, the more powerful it becomes 07:50:39 ... we now have some core hubs - dbpedia, musicBrainz, BBC 07:50:59 ... and we have vocabularies which reduces the need for invention which ups the rate of use 07:51:00 Denis has joined #tpac 07:51:04 claudio has joined #tpac 07:51:18 Jeni: also we have the "everyone else is using it, I should too" 07:51:28 vivien has joined #tpac 07:51:36 ... Linked Data focuses on the useful core technologies. they've created guides and best practices 07:51:54 glazou_ has joined #tpac 07:52:04 ... we need the publication of data easier for consumers. then people can make educated choices about how to publish data 07:52:16 sven_b has joined #tpac 07:52:24 ... On the consumption side, there's a generic RDF API w/in API. There's a potential for a path language 07:52:39 ... What we need is something accessible and fun and easy to use, not XML's DOM 07:52:42 lbolstad has joined #tpac 07:52:46 ... it needs to be used in other contexts 07:52:50 fjh has joined #tpac 07:52:57 adam has joined #tpac 07:53:06 Jeni: On the mapping of relational structures in RDF - my concern if they'll be used 07:53:22 ... I've tried to focus on meeting the challenges on this gradually blossoming Web of Data. 07:53:40 toto has joined #tpac 07:53:50 ... I think it's powerful but it's being avoided due to stigma and misperception. Focus on logic etc. which for publishing data is irrelevant 07:54:02 kaz has joined #tpac 07:54:05 AnnBassetti has joined #tpac 07:54:21 ... What role can W3C play? I've thought long and hard. It's hard to answer. The biggest gaps are in implementations. W3C blessing can help with what implementations to use 07:54:30 tlr has joined #tpac 07:54:40 ... Supporting the profile of RDF - what is currently considered relevant and primers on this 07:55:02 dom_bis has joined #tpac 07:55:06 ... W3C could also provide a home for community standards. it's hard to trust a vocabulary run by a single person, especially from a gov perspective 07:55:28 Jeni: W3C could sideline "sem web" term and focus on linked data 07:55:33 ... W3C could also help by sidelining on 'Semantic web' term and focus on "Web of Data" 07:55:36 Bert has joined #tpac 07:55:47 cmsmcq has joined #tpac 07:56:01 ... like every community, Linked data is insular and in some ways deaf to outside concerns. We only grow if we listen and change 07:56:12 hYamada has joined #tpac 07:56:25 shan has joined #tpac 07:56:31 ... W3C has a wide range of members, it's you, not the SW community, to listen to. Look again at SW, help the web of data blossom into something beautiful 07:56:32 effectively repositioning from technology focus to application focus? 07:57:05 masao has joined #tpac 07:57:18 jose-lap has joined #tpac 07:57:31 sgondo has joined #tpac 07:57:59 Klaus has joined #tpac 07:58:17 hjjaa has joined #tpac 07:58:24 Doug: Doug Schepers, W3C. I've tried SW with SVG. I keep bumping into not finding the right ontology to solve the problem I'm trying to solve. I've seen some efforts to consolidate ontologies. I want a reference - publishing, animals, etc., - to tell me where related ontologies exist. It's impossible to dig into all for them. Do you think there's value in W3C making an effort into unifying ontologies 07:58:29 scottvesey has joined #tpac 07:59:29 Jeni: I do think that there's legs to that. There's something in the Gov data IG to help recommend to govs which ontologies to use. And how to assess whether one is good to use. It's hard to understand which to use, it's about community and acceptance. What tools are available, is it maintained. 07:59:38 ... I think this means you need to have curated vs. searchable lists 07:59:46 ... I think this is role W3C can play 08:00:14 Jeff: Great talk. Great graphics. Thank you. You talked about insularity of W3C and SW technologies. This is a fair comment. A lot of problems are implementation. 08:00:55 ... Can you recommend one specific tangible thing we could do tomorrow to break insularity? Getting the topic on the table is one step. But how do we change this? 08:01:08 nick has joined #tpac 08:01:38 Jeni: Good question. I did on a previous set of slides that developers won't get involved with something they don't care about. The only time people would get involved is when you start reaching out and affect other things. Eg: people looked at RDFa when it was encroaching on HTML 08:01:59 ... a subversive thing would be to go into other areas, to listen to any objections 08:02:10 sven_b_ has joined #tpac 08:02:28 ... I've found the best way to work out what is wrong with a technology is to try to teach it. creating primers helps you understand where people might struggle 08:03:40 nick1 has joined #tpac 08:03:46 Noah: You've made clear that ease of use is a challenge and implementations. two threads in how to make complex technologies easier to use is to simplify. the other is to keep underlying technology complex but to have tools 08:03:52 caroline has joined #tpac 08:04:06 ... does W3C need to make simpler technologies or do people need to make tools? 08:04:07 freedom has joined #tpac 08:04:11 AnnBassetti has joined #tpac 08:04:17 Jeni: I think if you need tools it's too complex 08:05:12 Roger: Roger Cutler, Chevron. You said that the W3C doesn't do things like implementation. Suppose that w3C might do something because there's no place else it's going to get done. If you took that as a starting point, what then could the W3C do along these lines to aid? 08:05:59 Jeni: I think that creating a target language a really good parser and API that was well packaged, easy to install. That would be my suggestion. Something actually finished and completed with professional quality 08:06:05 fsasaki has joined #tpac 08:06:22 nick has joined #tpac 08:06:34 seungjae has joined #tpac 08:06:58 Noah: our next talk is by Tim to discuss an effort by him and the TAG on aligning XML and HTML 08:07:58 Topic: XML/HTML convergence, by Tim Berners-Lee 08:09:46 -> http://www.w3.org/2010/Talks/1103-tpac-tbl/ TimBL's slides 08:07:35 TimBL: This is a topic that's been discussed on lists and meetings like here at length, difficult and hard decisions 08:07:40 mcf has joined #tpac 08:07:58 ... it tends to be a rat hole because there are lots of related intertwined issues both technically and historically 08:08:00 noah has joined #tpac 08:08:21 ... what happened recently is that Raman sent a message saying we should fix it. "form a TF to look at the problem" 08:08:25 lgombos_w_ has joined #tpac 08:08:43 ... at the end of this presentation there are links including one to this message 08:09:12 ... there's a serious need for this, a whole community using XML tools to produce their websites. Sometimes they produce XHTML, sometimes XML, often serve as HTML mime type. 08:09:24 adam has joined #tpac 08:09:25 laurent has joined #tpac 08:09:35 FabGandon has joined #tpac 08:09:45 ... they've benefited from the stuff being in XML, they can scrape site in XML. There's a community used to using these tools. Meanwhile the def of HTML has divorced itself from XML 08:10:01 ... you can serialize this stuff in XML but most webpages can't be straightforwardly parsed 08:10:18 Kai has joined #tpac 08:10:39 ... one way to define a goal for this work Raman asked for is: 1. to see how much power we can give to the community that uses XML tools 2. to look at the future, to see whether divergence can be decreased, have convergence later on 08:11:18 hendry has joined #tpac 08:11:21 ... what I'm not going to do is go into details of the technical arguments. The TAG has gone into a number of them. There have been lots of suggestions to tweak HTML or XML. This is just an announcement that we'll make this TF - we'll have people on TAG and people not on TAG 08:11:44 ... I'm not yet announcing who is on the TF. but for those who are new, there are various areas where HMTL and XML have diverged 08:12:00 lbolstad has joined #tpac 08:12:01 ... HTML will cope w/ 08:12:28 mmielke has joined #tpac 08:12:57 +1 !!!! 08:12:58 ... there are tricky things where you can send page to XML and XHTML parser, but the famous one is inserted by XML parser. but if you write a script that goes through the DOM it will miss the first 08:13:00 kennyluck has joined #tpac 08:13:00 http://www.w3.org/2010/Talks/1103-tpac-tbl/#%283%29 08:13:06 MichaelC has joined #tpac 08:13:18 ... tricky little things like that. The center of this is in difference in irC 08:13:28 sylvaing has joined #tpac 08:14:01 ... it's a complicated issue with syntax w/out namespaces but a namespace gets generated 08:14:17 Vagner-br has joined #tpac 08:14:27 Steven has joined #tpac 08:14:35 Ian has joined #tpac 08:14:37 ... One trick is for mime types which use XHTML, could have parts set up by default. you know you'll get namespaces every time by default 08:14:49 ... doesn't have to be sent across net every time 08:15:37 ... I put in completely separate bullet is that XML requires attributes. don't ask me why. it's down on the list as it's a silly problem. easy to see how to map 08:15:52 ... The last one is a big issue - distributed extensibility 08:16:14 i/... tricky little things/[slide 3: Divergence Dimensions] 08:16:24 http://www.w3.org/2010/Talks/1103-tpac-tbl/#%284%29 slide 4 08:16:44 [slide 4: Polyglot] 08:16:28 ... what does this mean anyway? The need is that if one WG makes a spec, that a sub community using the spec, e.g.: HTML. they can use HTML and put in tags 08:16:51 ... Let me mention that the polyglot document is important 08:16:58 RRSagent, make minutes 08:16:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/03-tpac-minutes.html koalie 08:17:00 MichaelC_ has joined #tpac 08:17:22 ... this document describes how to generate an XML document and put on web as though both XML and HTML there are traps to avoid. this polyglot spec tells you what they are 08:17:28 RRSAgent, make logs public 08:17:53 ... It constrains the syntax (eg: lower case here). Don't put in noscript. If you're trying to do this sometimes there are choices eg: 08:18:40 [slide5: Polyglot] http://www.w3.org/2010/Talks/1103-tpac-tbl/#%285%29 08:18:41 ... Polyglot document very useful. I find the stuff I write is polyglot. i forget and tidy them as HTML but keep them as XML 08:18:46 sgondo has joined #tpac 08:18:48 johnjan has joined #tpac 08:19:00 ... Polyglot is important. 08:19:19 chair: Jeff 08:19:36 [slide6: Distributed Extensibility] http://www.w3.org/2010/Talks/1103-tpac-tbl/#%286%29 08:19:37 ... Distributed extensibility isn't just a quirk. It's a difference in values and what people felt were important things to optimize for 08:20:27 ... On one hand, you say to have interoperability use one syntax. on the other hand, use different syntax, new functionality creeps into system 08:20:45 ... it's how internet protocols and HTML has arisen in the past. I'd like to look at different examples 08:20:49 user has joined #tpac 08:21:02 ... one example of extensibility is adding SVG to HTML. SVG has always been something which should be in HTML 08:21:32 DenisBoulay has joined #tpac 08:21:34 Kangchan has joined #tpac 08:21:38 ... now SVG has been adopted by HTML5. the HTML5 spec now tells you how to put in SVG (instead of pointing at SVG spec). now you can put an SVG tag in by itself 08:21:46 aizu has joined #tpac 08:21:53 nwidell has joined #tpac 08:21:59 ... SVG is being incorporated and a discussion of how to make this happen is happening in HTML 08:22:02 -> http://www.w3.org/TR/XHTMLplusMathMLplusSVG/ XHTML+SVG+MathML (2002) 08:22:18 s/in HTML/in the HTML Working Group 08:22:18 ... OTher issue is RDFa, a way to put explicit semantics in a web page. There's a different WG. should be an extension to HTML 08:22:35 ... Design Authority for this extension is a different group. There's a framework for coordination 08:22:59 ... Now you have Facebook ML, we found out about it. they use namespaces, they didn't ask us, they didn't check with HTML 08:23:35 Ileana has joined #tpac 08:23:36 ... lots of such examples. If an editor saves information about it's current state or version info, there are many things people put in HTML. groups don't want to come and check with W3C 08:23:56 ... Distributed extensibility means there are a lot of people out there who need to use namespaces. 08:24:10 ... if you have a domain name, you can have a namespace 08:24:28 mmielke has joined #tpac 08:24:38 caribou has joined #tpac 08:24:46 ... Important to note there is a scale - distributed to extensible 08:24:56 ... video tags in HTML is obviously happening. 08:25:16 pchampin has joined #tpac 08:25:18 ... The philosophical question is how to value the needs of the people at the bottom of the list vs people at the top of the list 08:25:21 homata has joined #tpac 08:25:49 [slide 7 Scope/Timescale] http://www.w3.org/2010/Talks/1103-tpac-tbl/#%286%29 08:25:34 masinter has joined #tpac 08:25:39 danbri has joined #tpac 08:25:39 ... This is not a short term thing. won't be expected to produce comments for last call (maybe will, who knows) 08:25:46 ... Look for a future path to minimize damage 08:25:50 Roger has joined #tpac 08:26:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/03-tpac-minutes.html kennyluck 08:26:19 ... I respect Raman for raising the temperature here. He said: this is important. Everything which has two stacks which is divergent, there's pain for engineering. 08:26:23 burn has joined #tpac 08:26:43 ... We should look at this, we have large number of people in groups working on low level. It's good to step back and ask whether this is right 08:26:51 [slide 8: Links] 08:27:33 Daniel: Daniel Glazman, Disruptive Innovations. HTML had issues in the start. i think that what you call divergence is XML 2.0 where namespaces are less important 08:28:04 ... I think this is the future. It's possibly the right time to start thinking about the future of XML. XML as the way it is now is maybe not the best thing for the web on a daily basis 08:28:14 RogerChevron has joined #tpac 08:28:51 tlr has joined #tpac 08:28:55 yjang has joined #tpac 08:29:06 Henri: Henri Sivonen. I've implemented an HTML 5 parser that exposes the API and coerces the doc tree into an @@. you can connect them. There's also an HTML serializer 08:29:19 ... I think this is a solved problem with parsers and tools and serializers 08:30:27 Noah: next speaker Janina Sajka and expert on accessibility. She'll give us an overview in integrating accessibility features 08:30:49 dsinger has joined #tpac 08:30:53 mjs has joined #tpac 08:31:03 weinig has joined #tpac 08:31:18 rrsagent, make minutes 08:31:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/03-tpac-minutes.html Steven 08:32:41 -> http://www.w3.org/2010/Talks/JS-HTML_A11Y-20101103/ Janina's slides 08:31:26 Janina: thank you for the invitation to be here. I'm not going to try to talk about everything going on in accessibility 08:31:38 mgylling_ has joined #tpac 08:31:58 ... i'm going to try to talk about things I want the wider W3C community to be aware of. HTML is giving us opportunities we haven't previously had with specifications which do their best to support accessibility 08:32:05 toto_ has joined #tpac 08:32:46 ... We've heard the word accessibility. When I say it I'm talking about people who don't see or hear. There's a newer group of those who don't see or hear as well as most in this room. This group is coming and the implications are exciting but let's get there 08:33:02 [slide 1: Introduction] 08:33:05 mmielke has joined #tpac 08:33:10 ... I'm Janina Sajka. I chair PFWG and co-facilitate HTML Accessibility TF 08:33:49 ... also at the Linux foundation and editing a document for ISO 08:33:54 sven_b_ has joined #tpac 08:34:15 ... a lot of background in advocacy and in systems deployment 08:34:38 ... that the professional side but i come first as a consumer 08:35:29 ... Accessibility really does change lives, it doesn't make them see gives them info they might have seen. Doesn't make people see, but gives them words. We want to make sure you don't need a mouse. We're looking to the same things as everyone else on the web. regardless of sensory or motor ability 08:35:35 [slide 2: WAI-ARIA - Our 1.0 Story] 08:35:59 Hixie has joined #tpac 08:36:17 ... In PF we have ARIA. We're closing in on 1.0. It gives us a language independent way to support access 08:36:26 MichaelC has joined #tpac 08:36:27 jjeon has joined #tpac 08:36:47 Luca has joined #tpac 08:37:05 DenisBoulay has joined #tpac 08:37:13 ... it gives a series of standard kinds of tool, controls, interfaces. It's going to be very important. it's our consistent way of dealing with similar things regardless of host language 08:37:18 [slide 3 : Intentional Event - Our Newest Story] 08:37:22 pdengler has joined #tpac 08:37:34 ... Something brand new to us, not to W3C, we've got the opportunity to do "intentional events" 08:37:42 MMichel76 has joined #tpac 08:37:48 s/3 :/4 :/ 08:38:14 ... (undo, zoom, etc). how to map keyboard for undo or zoom, or intentional events common in application interfaces but very different in languages 08:38:29 AnnB has joined #tpac 08:38:49 johnjan has joined #TPAC 08:39:00 fjh_ has joined #tpac 08:39:01 ... idea is to get to work on developing technology. We're being driven here because it's not just mouse, etc., but voice interfaces, etc. It's a whole range of different ways we don't need authors to stumble across 08:39:31 ... It looks like this will happen in Web Events. this may change but it's our newest story. so stay tuned. we think the implications are far wider than just accessibility 08:39:32 [slide 5: The HTML Accessibility Task Force Story] 08:39:49 Luca_ has joined #tpac 08:39:50 timbl_ has joined #TPAC 08:40:01 ... Moving on the HTML 5 TF. We formed this together with PF + HTML. to work on accessibility recommendations for HTML spec. 08:40:28 Denis has joined #tpac 08:40:45 ... many of our recommendations have been picked up. A few to highlight: Aria. you can not incorporate so have to map ARIA to HTML 08:41:04 Luca_ has left #tpac 08:41:06 Roger has joined #tpac 08:41:28 ... we hope at the end of the day we'll have essentially the same technology for Aria 1.0. We're not quite there yet. this is key expectation esp. for applications new in HTML5. should make browsing far more compelling 08:41:31 davy has joined #tpac 08:41:57 ... Canvas - bitmap, no concept of structure, no caret. We've got some solutions there 08:42:16 shawn has joined #tpac 08:42:22 Roger has joined #tpac 08:42:53 Janina: without a caret to focus on, how can one programmatically know where to focus a screen magnifier for partially sighted people? 08:42:31 ... We want to make sure that canvas technologies are taken to an extent that HTML5 might rather they weren't. Eg: write [something] text in canvas 08:42:51 Roger has joined #tpac 08:42:58 ... we are pleased to say this is much further along. Lastly, media. This is one of the most transformative changes in HTML5 08:43:26 yuma_1985 has joined #tpac 08:43:26 ... You can see this happening. Go shopping for a TV, you can see some come with an RJ45 connector. Is this just google or another interface? 08:43:48 ... a convergence of technologies. We think this will be transformative not just for web but for education 08:44:01 rahul has joined #tpac 08:44:14 [slide 6: Meeting User Needs on Accessible Media] 08:44:15 dezell has joined #tpac 08:44:25 ... It's an enormous challenge to get things right on behalf of accessibility. Fortunately, there's a history here even before the web. 08:44:46 tlr has joined #tpac 08:44:51 [slide 6: Meeting User Needs on Accessible Media] 08:45:00 Luca has joined #tpac 08:45:07 ... Analog broadcasting, we call that video description. During the time when no one is talking another, very characteristic voice, describes what is happening so you can grok what is happening or captions on screens. 08:45:27 sgondo has joined #tpac 08:45:41 ... Captions really took off ~25 years ago as result of a law which said that TVs must be sold with capacity for decoders 08:46:28 ... Eg: in a noisy bar, you can turn on caption thing and follow along. This whole area of media accessibility was being called 'captioning'. This is just part of the story. it's improved media capacity 08:46:54 Roger has joined #tpac 08:46:59 use inclusive language (not just captions) so that we realize the breadth of issues to be addressed 08:47:09 ... We also have things such as clear audio, now with digital broadcasting you can create a sub-mix to take out most of other sound effects to focus mostly on key portions 08:47:12 DenisBoulay has joined #tpac 08:47:32 ... It's a production level thing and being used in UK. 08:48:06