08:00:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webapps
08:00:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-irc
08:00:41 <Kai> Kai has joined #webapps
08:00:56 <Barstow> ScribeNick: MikeSmith 
08:01:01 <yongil_jang> yongil_jang has joined #webapps
08:01:02 <adrianba> adrianba has joined #webapps
08:01:02 <smaug_> smaug_ has joined #webapps
08:01:03 <Barstow> Scribe: Mike_Smith
08:01:11 <Barstow> RRSAgent, make log Public
08:01:18 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith has joined #webapps
08:01:19 <Barstow> Meeting: WebApps F2F Meeting
08:01:20 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #webapps
08:01:25 <Barstow> Date: 2 November 2010
08:01:30 <Barstow> Chair: ArtB
08:02:35 <Barstow> Present: ArtB, DougS, MikeSmith, Geoffrey, SamW, Maciej, DaveR, Olli, Adrian, EliotG, LaszloG, YaelA, AnssiK SureshC, Dom, Johnson
08:02:48 <eliot> eliot has joined #webapps
08:03:08 <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith 
08:03:33 <komasshu> komasshu has joined #webapps
08:03:34 <Barstow> Present+ AnneVK, KlausB
08:06:11 <anne> anne has joined #webapps
08:07:13 <MikeSmith> Topic: DOM3 Events
08:07:16 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/products/2
08:07:17 <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html
08:07:31 <MikeSmith> shepazu: first is to our tracker page
08:07:36 <MikeSmith> … does not have every issue
08:07:40 <wonsuk> wonsuk has joined #webapps
08:07:47 <MikeSmith> … because CLOSED issues don't show up
08:07:58 <MikeSmith> … this reprepsents most of our LC technical comment
08:08:05 <Hyeonsoo> Hyeonsoo has joined #webapps
08:08:07 <MikeSmith> … we figured we might have to go through LC gain
08:08:14 <MikeSmith> … we will be adding the locale string
08:08:14 <lgombos_w> lgombos_w has joined #webapps
08:08:22 <MikeSmith> … as we discussed yesterday
08:08:29 <MikeSmith> … we will be making small changes
08:08:32 <Bo_Chen> Bo_Chen has joined #webapps
08:08:32 <MikeSmith> … improving wording
08:08:39 <MikeSmith> … editorial explanations
08:08:44 <MikeSmith> … going to LC again in Jan
08:08:49 <MikeSmith> … this time "for reals"
08:09:02 <MikeSmith> … pending any upheavals
08:09:06 <junliao> junliao has joined #webapps
08:09:11 <MikeSmith> … doesn't specifcy evvery possible thing
08:09:32 <MikeSmith> … we had a comment from Garrett Smith
08:09:41 <Bo_Chen> Bo_Chen has joined #webapps
08:09:41 <MikeSmith> … also from Ample SDK
08:09:51 <MikeSmith> anne: Sergei Ilinsky
08:09:54 <junliao> junliao has joined #webapps
08:09:59 <MikeSmith> shepazu: wansts to modularize
08:10:08 <MikeSmith> … and Anne wants to modularize more too
08:10:15 <IceGuest_77> IceGuest_77 has joined #webapps
08:10:17 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
08:10:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
08:10:28 <gavin> gavin has joined #webapps
08:10:29 <MikeSmith> shepazu: introduces all the things that were in DOM2 events
08:10:42 <cslye> cslye has joined #webapps
08:10:58 <MikeSmith> … plues text input, keyboard input, one mutation event
08:11:03 <junliao> junliao has joined #webapps
08:11:08 <wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
08:11:12 <MikeSmith> … though we have deprecated all the other mutation events
08:11:24 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make logs public
08:11:43 <MikeSmith> shepazu: I think we are more or less fr
08:11:48 <MikeSmith> … feature complete
08:11:51 <cslye> cslye has left #webapps
08:11:57 <MikeSmith> anne: I'm the editor of DOM Core
08:12:09 <MikeSmith> … I think it make sense for DOM Core to define mutation events
08:12:56 <freedom> freedom has joined #webapps
08:13:04 <MikeSmith> anne: simiilar to how we define Form events inside the Forms spec
08:13:28 <MikeSmith> shepazu: we removed some Form-related events and those were moved to the Forms spec
08:13:46 <francois> francois has joined #webapps
08:13:52 <MikeSmith> mjs: How about making mutation events die in a fire?
08:14:17 <MikeSmith> mjs: I agree if they have really tight coupling to DOM behavior, it makes sense to have them in the same place
08:14:31 <MikeSmith> … but tehre are some cases that don't require tight coupling at all 
08:15:05 <MikeSmith> weinig: some of our chagnes are pending that they don7t break major editing sites
08:15:21 <MikeSmith> … or goal is to turn it on and see what sites break
08:15:27 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
08:15:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
08:16:20 <Seung-Jae> Seung-Jae has joined #webapps
08:16:21 <MikeSmith> anne: 
08:16:26 <Johnson> Johnson has joined #webapps
08:16:37 <MikeSmith> smaug_: I don't understand why were are moving mutation events
08:16:45 <MikeSmith> … I thought everybody just wanted them removed
08:17:06 <MikeSmith> mjs: I thikn the DOM events mechanism really has become part of the core
08:17:28 <MikeSmith> smaug_: yeah, but some specs may refere DOM events, but don't need to use DOM core
08:17:42 <MikeSmith> mjs: there is almost no way to use DOM events without also using DOM core
08:18:10 <MikeSmith> anne: what is an example where it's that case that something relies on DOM events but not DOM core
08:18:20 <kennyluck> kennyluck has joined #webapps
08:18:37 <MikeSmith> smaug_: some specs just extend [by adding new events and so don't need to reference DOM core]
08:19:06 <MikeSmith> shepazu: anne, please explain what you want to move, specifically
08:19:22 <mjs> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/#event-interfaces
08:19:24 <MikeSmith> anne: there is a part call "Basic Event Interfaces"
08:19:34 <MikeSmith> … it would make sense to split that part out
08:19:46 <MikeSmith> shepazu: that is the core of DOM3 Events…
08:19:58 <MikeSmith> anne: in addition to that, I think the mutation events should move too
08:20:04 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
08:20:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
08:20:36 <shepazu> q+
08:20:36 <MikeSmith> mjs: smaug, I think your dependency argument doesn't work [because the dependencies are complex]
08:20:39 <MikeSmith> q?
08:21:07 <MikeSmith> anne: this is implementable in Java
08:21:23 <mjs> what I said about dependencies is that DOM3 Events has a normative dependency on DOM 3 Core
08:21:41 <mjs> so there's no such thing as depending on DOM Events without depending on DOM Core
08:22:05 <MikeSmith> Art: anybody else have comments?
08:22:36 <MikeSmith> adrianba: I don't have a strong opinion about where we go in the long term
08:22:49 <MikeSmith> … there is plenty of time to talk about it
08:22:58 <MikeSmith> … right now there is an Event spec
08:23:04 <MikeSmith> … which is what we are targeting in IE9
08:23:22 <MikeSmith> … it seems like the wrong time now to start cutting up the problem space in a different way
08:23:38 <mjs> q+
08:23:46 <MikeSmith> … let's move the spec forward as it is
08:24:04 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webapps
08:24:11 <mjs> q+
08:24:40 <MikeSmith> adrianba: we are chartered to work in a new async spec for [something like mutation events]
08:25:01 <MikeSmith> adrianba: stabilizing what we how now and moving forward seems like the right thing
08:25:27 <MikeSmith> mjs: my preference would be to move forward but plan [to move things to DOM Core later]
08:25:34 <Vagner-br> Vagner-br has joined #webapps
08:25:43 <Barstow> Present+ RichardT
08:25:52 <MikeSmith> smaug_: I agree
08:26:00 <MikeSmith> … let's get DOM3 Events done now
08:26:06 <MikeSmith> … DOM Core will take years
08:26:17 <MikeSmith> adrianba: we have implemented some of the mutatation events
08:26:29 <MikeSmith> … we all understand the problems with mutation events
08:26:41 <Wuk> Wuk has joined #webapps
08:26:50 <MikeSmith> anne: I am afraid we are getting stuck with mutation events
08:26:57 <Vagner-br> Vagner-br has left #webapps
08:26:58 <MikeSmith> adrianba: we are kind of stuck with them anyway
08:27:14 <mjs> q-
08:27:47 <MikeSmith> shepazu: if you are going to do part of it, it should all be in one spec
08:27:51 <junliao> junliao has joined #webapps
08:27:56 <MikeSmith> anne: what do you mean by all?
08:28:44 <MikeSmith> anne: I don't think mouse events belongs together with it
08:29:02 <MikeSmith> shepazu: I would agree that we should move DOM3 Events forward as it stands
08:29:07 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
08:29:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
08:29:30 <MikeSmith> anne: I don't think labeling them as deprecated helps us all that much
08:29:49 <MikeSmith> mjs: if the number of implementations is increasing, then [clearly it's not helping]
08:29:58 <MikeSmith> anne: making them async would be a big start
08:30:07 <richt> richt has joined #webapps
08:30:10 <MikeSmith> smaug_: we don't know that that will work
08:30:27 <MikeSmith> smaug_: tehre are some other approaches that are not event-based
08:30:44 <seungjae> seungjae has joined #webapps
08:31:31 <MikeSmith> smaug_: it is possible to remove some features from the platform
08:31:34 <MikeSmith> … it has been done
08:31:56 <MikeSmith> shepazu: deprecation is a warning to authors
08:32:05 <Bo_Chen> Bo_Chen has joined #webapps
08:32:28 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
08:32:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
08:32:41 <Barstow> Present+ BryanS, KaiH
08:32:53 <MikeSmith> shepazu: it's not helpful to remove them from the spec at this point
08:33:15 <MikeSmith> weinig: if they were removed from DOM3 Events, would MSFT consider not adding them in IE9
08:33:25 <MikeSmith> [adrian shakes his head]
08:33:36 <MikeSmith> shepazu: they are only supporting some of them
08:33:45 <MikeSmith> adrianba: we are supporting them for interoperability reasons
08:34:04 <MikeSmith> shepazu: they are in the spec because implementors asked for them to be in the spec
08:34:05 <bryan> bryan has joined #webapps
08:34:22 <bryan> Present+ Bryan_Sullivan
08:34:43 <MikeSmith> art: I noticed big list of issues
08:34:55 <MikeSmith> shepazu: a bunch of them are from David Flanagan
08:35:00 <MikeSmith> [book author
08:35:29 <MikeSmith> shepazu: Oli, Travis, Jacob Rossi, myself discussed them
08:35:42 <MikeSmith> … we have agreed already to accept most of the comments
08:35:51 <MikeSmith> … and have heard no objections from the list
08:36:15 <MikeSmith> shepazu: even.timestamp is one that we have still be discussing
08:36:32 <MikeSmith> s/even.time/event.time/
08:37:00 <MikeSmith> art: can you do all 50 0f these by the end of the year?
08:37:15 <MikeSmith> shepazu: we can round-trip on these by end of January
08:37:23 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
08:37:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
08:37:41 <MikeSmith> shepazu: if nobody has more comments, let's move on
08:38:08 <MikeSmith> art: we don't have our next topic scheduled until 11am
08:38:44 <Peter`> Peter` has joined #webapps
08:39:17 <MikeSmith> Topic: possible plans for console object spec/WG
08:39:45 <MikeSmith> shepazu: a lot of people have said why don't specify the console object
08:40:03 <MikeSmith> weinig: we just copied the console api into Webkit
08:40:25 <MikeSmith> mjs: there are a few things around console that are Web-compatibility issues
08:41:00 <MikeSmith> mjs: having to do with devs using console calls into their scripts even after they have done debugging
08:41:09 <MikeSmith> weinig: there are a couple problems
08:41:24 <MikeSmith> weinig: we don't think operations on the console should be visible to Web pages
08:41:37 <MikeSmith> … we made some mistakes around that
08:42:25 <MikeSmith> mjs: the fact that console.log exists and doesn't have potentially 
08:43:37 <MikeSmith> -> http://getfirebug.com/wiki/index.php/Console_API Console API
08:43:52 <MikeSmith> adrianba: we having implemented the console in IE9
08:44:09 <MikeSmith> s/IE9/IE8-IE9
08:44:29 <junliao> junliao has joined #webapps
08:46:19 <MikeSmith> adrianba: there is a session tomorrow to discuss a new community-driven spec-dev approah
08:46:31 <MikeSmith> … this might be a good case to use as a pilot
08:46:42 <MikeSmith> … for that approach
08:47:56 <MikeSmith> Topic: Audio XG
08:48:52 <MikeSmith> shepazu: about 6 months ago, we got in contact with some devs who were working on an api from programatically writing and reading audio streams
08:49:07 <MikeSmith> … and we started in Incubator Group
08:49:09 <MikeSmith> … XG
08:49:26 <Barstow> Audio XG Charter: http://www.w3.org/2010/04/audio/audio-incubator-charter.html
08:49:44 <MikeSmith> shepazu: and right now, Mozilla has a related API they have have developed
08:50:01 <MikeSmith> … and Googl Chrome team has a related API as well
08:50:13 <MikeSmith> shepazu: and we have decided to start a new WG
08:50:35 <Barstow> Audio XG's mail list archive: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-audio/2010Oct/
08:51:24 <Barstow> Mike: Chrome team is working on this API
08:51:36 <Barstow> ... think we want broader participation
08:52:44 <MikeSmith> shepazu: we would probably start the WG by February or so
08:55:07 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
08:55:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
09:00:16 <MikeSmith> Barstow: we will be back at 11am with anne at the podium
09:00:35 <MikeSmith> Barstow: XHR1 test suite, and XHR1 issues
09:00:49 <Barstow> RRSAgent, make minutes
09:00:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html Barstow
09:00:50 <MikeSmith> [we take a 1 hour break:
09:00:56 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
09:00:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
09:02:06 <anne> http://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/domparser
09:02:44 <arve> arve has joined #webapps
09:03:07 <fons> fons has joined #webapps
09:06:36 <junliao> junliao has joined #webapps
09:09:53 <bryan> bryan has left #webapps
09:25:24 <Barstow> Barstow has joined #webapps
09:29:32 <pererik_> pererik_ has joined #webapps
09:30:36 <sgondo_> sgondo_ has joined #webapps
09:37:19 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow ask Doug for a pointer to Google's "Before Input Proposal"
09:37:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-608 - Ask Doug for a pointer to Google's "Before Input Proposal" [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-09].
09:40:50 <timeless_mbp> timeless_mbp has joined #webapps
09:43:38 <kennyluck> kennyluck has joined #webapps
09:44:19 <adam> adam has joined #webapps
09:44:43 <bryan> bryan has joined #webapps
09:44:51 <komasshu> komasshu has joined #webapps
09:46:01 <ArtB> issue-119?
09:46:01 <trackbot> ISSUE-119 -- Consider adding input/keyboard locale to text and keyboard events -- open
09:46:01 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/119
09:49:20 <mjs> mjs has joined #webapps
10:03:39 <Barstow> Barstow has joined #webapps
10:04:43 <Barstow> ScribeNick: timeless_mbp
10:04:48 <timeless> ScribeNick: timeless
10:04:56 <timeless> Topic: XHR Testing
10:05:05 <timeless> Scribe+ timeless
10:05:31 <timeless> ArtB: Anne will be talking about XHR Level 1 Test Suite
10:05:38 <anne> http://tc.labs.opera.com/apis/XMLHttpRequest/ and http://tc.labs.opera.com/svn/apis/XMLHttpRequest/
10:05:38 <timeless> … and Level 1 issues
10:05:48 <sicking> sicking has joined #webapps
10:06:00 <timeless> anne: XHR Level 1 went to CR
10:06:08 <timeless> … which means it's awaiting implementations
10:06:17 <timeless> … of course XHR has been implemented long ago already
10:06:23 <timeless> … there is a test suite which has been announced on the list
10:06:28 <timeless> … but there has been little response
10:06:41 <timeless> … Since people are here now, I guess I can ask people directly
10:06:53 <timeless> sicking: I haven't looked at the testsuite yet, but is it fully automated?
10:07:11 <timeless> anne: you need a test harness, but it is automatic loaded a test says PASS/FAIL
10:07:24 <timeless> sicking: i think one of our desires is that things be as automated as possible
10:07:32 <timeless> anne: I agree
10:07:51 <anne> http://tc.labs.opera.com/apis/XMLHttpRequest/abort-during-done.htm
10:08:05 <timeless> … ? there is a testharness that it's written for which is used for other testsuites from this group
10:08:30 <timeless> [ anne describes how individual tests are structured ]
10:08:39 <homata> homata has joined #webapps
10:08:46 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #webapps
10:08:46 <timeless> adrianba: how much has the test suite changed recently?
10:08:55 <timeless> anne: the framework changed to make it the same as the HTML WG
10:09:08 <timeless> … quite a few changed because a number weren't matching the spec anymore
10:09:15 <timeless> … the old testsuite was quite outdated
10:09:20 <timeless> … some tests have been removed
10:09:28 <hidetaka> hidetaka has joined #webapps
10:09:37 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #webapps
10:09:42 <timeless> … the number of tests has gone down. because some test assertions were combined into single test
10:09:56 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #webapps
10:10:00 <timeless> dom: did you follow any specific method to ensure every feature has been tested?
10:10:02 <timeless> anne: um, no
10:10:24 <timeless> … i tried reading carefully to ensure everything is covered
10:10:36 <timeless> artb: do you think anything is missing?
10:10:46 <timeless> anne: there's an open item in the issue database about credentials in urls
10:11:00 <timeless> … the tests around that and authentication are not done yet
10:11:09 <dom> (should known bugs in the test suite be documented somewhere?)
10:13:43 <timeless_mbp> timeless_mbp has joined #webapps
10:13:57 <Johnson> Johnson has joined #webapps
10:14:23 <timeless_mbp> bryan: did you want to test posts?
10:14:31 <timeless_mbp> … for redirects (?)
10:14:44 <timeless_mbp> anne: i didn't want to because HTTP Biz is still undecided on some of this
10:14:50 <timeless_mbp> … 301/302/307 ...
10:15:04 <timeless_mbp> sicking: another thing is that Mozilla + Opera include dialogs on 307
10:15:10 <timeless_mbp> … it's sort of a requirement in the HTTP spec
10:15:26 <timeless_mbp> … but they don't have it for direct address
10:15:33 <Kai> Kai has joined #webapps
10:15:41 <timeless_mbp> … they're ratholes, so not tested yet, once they're resolved they'll be tested
10:16:17 <henri> henri has joined #webapps
10:16:18 <timeless_mbp> anne: the only accessible methods are GET and POST
10:16:23 <timeless_mbp> sam: didn't hixie add DELETE?
10:16:28 <timeless_mbp> anne: we got him to remove it
10:16:43 <timeless_mbp> anne: Trailers aren't tested yet, because i didn't know about them or how to test them
10:16:49 <Barstow> Present+ Jonas, Pablo, Jeremy, Andrei
10:16:53 <timeless_mbp> sicking: so do we have to test them?
10:17:04 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #webapps
10:17:10 <timeless_mbp> anne: i might be able to test things w/ nph-
10:17:16 <timeless_mbp> … but i'm not sure what to expect
10:17:27 <timeless_mbp> sicking: trailers are after the response body
10:17:55 <timeless_mbp> anne: so i guess the text that talks about the response body would have to talk about changing the state
10:18:04 <timeless_mbp> … as far as i'm concerned, we don't need to support it
10:18:15 <timeless_mbp> … for readyState changes
10:18:21 <timeless_mbp> … but do you go to the DOM state
10:18:28 <dom> s/DOM/done/
10:18:54 <timeless_mbp> sam: you said the php scripts are available in an svn server?
10:19:04 <timeless_mbp> anne: yeah, it was the second link i posted
10:19:05 <dom> http://tc.labs.opera.com/svn/apis/XMLHttpRequest/resources/
10:19:29 <timeless_mbp> artb: i assume the action then is for everyone to help this spec reach the exit criteria
10:19:35 <timeless_mbp> … is to review the tests
10:19:47 <timeless_mbp> anne: i assume there are some spec/test items which need fixing
10:19:57 <timeless_mbp> … there's one other small test which might need fixing
10:20:08 <timeless_mbp> … Byorn Herman 
10:20:20 <dom> s/Byorn/Björn/
10:20:26 <timeless_mbp> … pointed out byte order swaps
10:20:33 <timeless_mbp> s/swaps/mark character/
10:20:34 <shepazu> s/Byorn Herman/Björn Höhrmann/
10:20:43 <jorlow> jorlow has joined #webapps
10:21:05 <helena> helena has joined #webapps
10:21:09 <timeless_mbp> artb: we had set expectations that we wouldn't exit CR before Feb 2011
10:21:17 <timeless_mbp> sicking: which is two conforming implementations?
10:21:26 <timeless_mbp> anne: I don't think that's likely to happen
10:21:36 <timeless_mbp> … I would encourage people to review the editor's draft instead of this
10:21:47 <timeless_mbp> … because there have been some changes to make this closer to XHR2
10:22:02 <timeless_mbp> … removing some throw conditions to enable CORS
10:22:10 <timeless_mbp> … those have been reflected in the testsuite already
10:22:17 <timeless_mbp> … i try to keep the testsuite and the draft in sync
10:22:32 <timeless_mbp> … that also means that if you implement to the testsuite, there shouldn't be any conflicts with XHR2
10:22:37 <timeless_mbp> … if there are, that would be a bug
10:23:06 <timeless_mbp> anne: i'm not sure if we want to discuss any of the issues now
10:23:16 <timeless_mbp> artb: that's up to you, we have some of the people in the room
10:23:24 <timeless_mbp> anne: one of them is the user info protection in the urls
10:23:31 <timeless_mbp> … i think microsoft doesn't implement it
10:23:35 <timeless_mbp> … and i think the other vendors do
10:23:57 <timeless_mbp> … so that you can have http://user:pass@host/...
10:24:08 <timeless_mbp> anne: I think the HTTP people want to remove it
10:24:14 <timeless_mbp> sicking: I think we could try to remove it
10:24:26 <timeless_mbp> sicking: does the spec say they must be supported?
10:24:37 <timeless_mbp> anne: the http url spec does mention them
10:24:48 <timeless_mbp> anne: does the url get sent to the server?
10:25:05 <timeless_mbp> sicking: it might leak in the form of a referer header
10:25:37 <shepazu> scribenick: timeless 
10:25:53 <timeless> sicking: i'm sure the url testsuite ...
10:26:00 <timeless> anne: they are mentioned in the spec
10:26:07 <timeless> … the spec has user and password arguments
10:26:21 <shepazu> q+ to describe policy on php in test suites
10:26:22 <timeless> … which are used to set authorization headers (?)
10:26:42 <timeless> … if we don't remove it ...
10:26:57 <timeless> anne: there is an issue in the bug database, i think it's the only open issue at this point
10:27:06 <timeless> q?
10:27:09 <timeless> ack shepazu
10:27:09 <Zakim> shepazu, you wanted to describe policy on php in test suites
10:27:29 <timeless> shepazu: so dom followed up with the Systems Team on PHP tests
10:27:39 <timeless> … we just got confirmation that we will be hosting the php tests
10:27:41 <Barstow> ACTION: barstow XHR: add link to bugzilla in PubStatus
10:27:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-609 - XHR: add link to bugzilla in PubStatus [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-09].
10:27:58 <timeless> … any tests that involves PHP will require review by the Systems Team
10:28:06 <timeless> … they will be hosted on the load balancing servers
10:28:09 <timeless> anne: which servers?
10:28:23 <timeless> dom: they'll be hosted on test.w3.org
10:28:35 <timeless> dom: it would be helpful if you moved to the mercurial server
10:28:39 <timeless> anne: i think there's a version there
10:28:43 <timeless> … but probably not up to date
10:29:07 <seungjae> seungjae has joined #webapps
10:29:09 <timeless> shepazu: the process will be such that you let us know when there's a specific version you want deployed
10:29:17 <timeless> … it will not be deployed until the systems team reviews it
10:29:28 <timeless> shepazu: i think this will come up a lot
10:29:36 <timeless> anne: there's also the web sockets stuff
10:29:52 <timeless> dom: i think that is more complicated and will require more work
10:30:08 <timeless> … i think we can manage, it requires more work
10:30:19 <timeless> shepazu: for cross domain work, i think we'll need another domain
10:30:37 <timeless> adrianba: we already have "test" and "test2" which are cnames
10:30:57 <timeless> dom: if you are working on any test suite that has server side things, please get in touch with the Systems Team early
10:31:07 <timeless> anne: if you really want to test the really gritty networking stuff
10:31:21 <timeless> … I think you will need HTTPS, certificates, DV, EV, OV,...
10:31:31 <timeless> shepazu: those are good points
10:31:40 <AnssiK> AnssiK has joined #webapps
10:31:54 <timeless> … Philippe is starting a new testing project
10:32:07 <timeless> … so setting up a little test honey pot might be possible
10:32:22 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
10:32:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
10:32:27 <timeless> dom: in general i think what's important is getting things to the REC track
10:33:31 <timeless_mbp> timeless_mbp has joined #webapps
10:33:42 <shepazu> s/in general i think what's important is getting things to the REC track/in general i think what's important is getting things to the REC track, so get in touch with Systems Team earlier rather than later/
10:33:45 <timeless> timeless has joined #webapps
10:33:58 <timeless> ScribeNick: timeless
10:34:13 <timeless> artb: anything else about XHR or its testsuite?
10:34:28 <timeless> anne: no. apart from asking people to review/give comments
10:34:35 <chaals> chaals has joined #webapps
10:34:39 <timeless> bryan: is it easy to set up?
10:34:44 <timeless> anne: yes, there's a readme
10:34:55 <dom> (can we record an action to update the test suite on dvcs.w3.org?)
10:35:00 <timeless> artb: based on the feedback you've got so far on the XHR1 candidate
10:35:02 <chaals> rrsagent, make minutes
10:35:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html chaals
10:35:19 <timeless> Action anne update the test suite on dvcs.w3.org
10:35:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-610 - Update the test suite on dvcs.w3.org [on Anne van Kesteren - due 2010-11-09].
10:35:40 <timeless> anne: Before going back to last call
10:35:49 <timeless> ... make sure that we have two implementations that pass all the tests
10:36:05 <timeless> ... and that the specification has all the implementations passed that
10:36:40 <timeless> ... so that when we go back to LC we can go to PR after that (skipping CR)
10:36:57 <timeless> artb: the third bullet for this hour is a general discussion about testing
10:37:03 <timeless> ... and we've already gone down that path quite a bit
10:37:14 <timeless> anne: we could discuss responseArrayBuffer briefly
10:37:20 <timeless> ... i'm not sure we could reach a conclusion now
10:37:22 <Hixie> Hixie has joined #webapps
10:37:31 <timeless> Topic: XHR2 responseArrayBuffer
10:37:48 <timeless> sicking: I do have something to say on this
10:37:59 <timeless> sicking: So, the complicated issue is that...
10:38:03 <timeless> ... there's multiple topics
10:38:11 <timeless> ... the whole ongoing discussion right now about parsing...
10:38:19 <timeless> ... all requests into all response properties
10:38:28 <timeless> ... (Boris Z)
10:38:45 <timeless> sicking: what i'd like to do is move away from the current situation
10:38:54 <timeless> ... where we parse into multiple properties
10:39:00 <timeless> ... which is the XHR1 behavior
10:39:15 <timeless> ... I want to move to a way where you specify up front which thing you want
10:39:26 <timeless> adrianba: I think that makes sense
10:39:41 <timeless> ... so if you know it's coming as JSON or you want it as a Blob, you can specify that
10:39:53 <timeless> sicking: obviously we need to retain compatibility with XHR1
10:40:13 <timeless> ... and the stuff where you get a document
10:40:22 <timeless> anne: this sounds kind of annoying
10:40:37 <timeless> sicking: while it is nice to have things nice to have things parsed into everything
10:40:46 <timeless> ... it's only nice if you don't have to consider all the resources used
10:40:55 <timeless> ... what we're talking about is Document
10:41:03 <timeless> anne: but you only need to create Document once it's requested
10:41:08 <timeless> ... you don't have to do it all up front
10:41:13 <timeless> sicking: in our implementation
10:41:28 <timeless> ... we'll do charset-decoding differently depending on whether we're parsing into a document or not
10:41:41 <timeless> ... so responseText changes depending on whether you have a document
10:41:46 <timeless> ... and the spec requires this
10:42:09 <timeless> sicking: everything else, JSON, Blobs, streams...
10:42:18 <timeless> anne: streams?
10:42:26 <timeless> sicking: we'll end up having to do it
10:42:40 <timeless> adrianba: streams for media...
10:42:54 <timeless> sicking: you can't set headers without this
10:43:05 <timeless> adrianba: or you might want to process the data as it arrives 
10:43:25 <timeless> [anne was asking about using <video> ]
10:43:54 <timeless> sam: we don't have to convince anne about streams
10:44:04 <timeless> ... more things will be using new content formats
10:44:27 <timeless> geoffrey: there will be more and more kinds with time
10:44:39 <timeless> anne: this screws with content negotations
10:44:43 <timeless> s/ons/on/
10:44:56 <timeless> [ scribe laughs ]
10:45:23 <timeless> sicking: one of the aspects of my proposal is that you can set .responseType after headers are received
10:45:32 <timeless> ... but before any data has been processed
10:45:47 <timeless> anne: how would it work for sync requests/
10:45:58 <timeless> sicking: we'd fire events
10:46:07 <timeless> anne: but they're blocked by the sync request
10:46:16 <timeless> sicking: you can't fire an async request, but you can fire a sync event
10:46:24 <timeless> ... that's trivial implementation-wise
10:46:33 <timeless> ... you just run code on the main thread
10:46:38 <timeless> anne: that sounds hairy
10:46:50 <timeless> smaug_: we explicitly want to get rid of ready state change events
10:46:56 <timeless> s/smaug_/smaug/
10:47:10 <timeless> smaug: because that causes hanging in safari
10:47:22 <timeless> adrianba: i think it's fine to not support sync requests for this new feature
10:47:29 <timeless> ... because we want to push people toward async
10:47:39 <timeless> anne: for workers sync requests are fine
10:47:46 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
10:47:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
10:48:10 <timeless> s/anne/jonas+sam/
10:48:35 <timeless> anne: i'm saying you're opening a rathole
10:49:06 <timeless> mjs: so what are we specifically talking about?
10:49:25 <timeless> geoffrey: this was for when we receive headers
10:49:40 <timeless> anne: i don't think we should really fire events during a sync request
10:49:47 <adam> s/receive headers/receive content headers/
10:49:49 <timeless> ... because conceptually that's confusing/seems really weird
10:50:12 <timeless> mjs: there's generally a separate thread buffering the data from the network
10:50:18 <timeless> sam: the buffering is already happening
10:50:34 <timeless> ... anyone doing network handling on the main thread is probably doing something really wrong anyway
10:50:43 <timeless> sicking: i'm suggesting this *only* for workers
10:50:53 <timeless> anne: I guess I would have to reference Workers from XHR2
10:51:08 <timeless> sam: we kind of think of sync as deprecated in the main context now
10:51:22 <timeless> ... so adding features and having them exposed for the non workers case is kind of like whatever
10:51:52 <timeless> mjs: even in workers, i think it makes sense to encourage people to have multiple concurrent requests
10:52:10 <timeless> ... by not providing this feature for sync
10:52:19 <timeless> sicking: i'm not sure that this has taken off
10:52:56 <timeless> artb: time check
10:53:03 <timeless> artb: we have test suites we've already covered
10:53:16 <timeless> ... and you have ...
10:53:37 <timeless> sicking: i posted my original proposal on content negotiation to the list
10:53:45 <timeless> ... it's a long thread
10:53:55 <timeless> sicking: i had one more issue on byte array
10:54:04 <timeless> sicking: have you seen the proposal on the ecma list
10:54:10 <timeless> ... about another binary format?
10:54:15 <timeless> anne: i'm not on the list
10:54:22 <timeless> ... i think it should align with webgl
10:54:23 <MikeSmith> sicking, url? 
10:54:34 <timeless> sicking: it's a long discussion
10:55:03 <timeless> sicking: i'll try to find the url
10:55:15 <mjs> mjs has joined #webapps
10:55:24 <timeless> anne: i don't mind removing endianness
10:55:29 <timeless> ... but it would have to be aligned about webgl
10:55:47 <timeless> sam: the reason for the endianness is that you want things in host byte order for webgl
10:55:55 <timeless> sicking: not all details are worked out yet
10:55:59 <timeless> ... the idea is to have it be fast
10:56:07 <timeless> ... but without exposing platform endianness
10:56:21 <Guest724> Guest724 has joined #webapps
10:56:36 <timeless> ... the problem is that you're talking between two languages, JS and GLSL
10:56:53 <timeless> ... david herman is the guy who made the proposal
10:56:54 <anne> GLSL = OpenGL Shading Language
10:57:41 <sicking> http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=strawman:binary_data
10:57:46 <sicking> http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=strawman:binary_data_semantics
10:57:54 <sicking> http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=strawman:binary_data_discussion
10:58:30 <timeless> artb: before we go on to DOM Core, I wanted to set aside a few minutes for testing
10:58:41 <Guest724> anne , t'es française ?!
10:58:42 <timeless> adrianba: we submitted tests for the webapps and html WGs
10:59:15 <adrianba> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/file/5814514eeba4/tests/DOMEvents
10:59:15 <timeless> adrianba: i'd like to move away from a system where we have a different process per spec for submission
10:59:34 <timeless> ... we have some tests which we have committed to the mercurial repository - i just pasted the link
10:59:40 <Guest724> Guest724 has left #webapps
10:59:50 <timeless> ... when I was talking to doug, he was trying to develop tests alongside the spec
11:00:06 <timeless> ... we/he found that if you develop tests as you develop the spec, it's easier to find spec issues
11:00:16 <euhrhane> euhrhane has joined #webapps
11:00:20 <timeless> ... there's a question of where to put tests as things are developed
11:00:43 <timeless> ... and keep aware of which things are agreed upon tests. which are under development. which aren't agreed
11:01:10 <timeless> sicking: we should try to require tests to be automatically runnable
11:01:11 <Barstow> ACTION: barstow work with Team and Chaals on formalizing test suite process for WebApps
11:01:12 <trackbot> Created ACTION-611 - Work with Team and Chaals on formalizing test suite process for WebApps [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-11-09].
11:01:26 <timeless> anne: ... whenever possible
11:01:46 <timeless> adrianba: i think the work that anne did to refactor the XHR test suite to use the same framework as the HTML tests
11:01:58 <timeless> ... he should receive credit for that, because it made things much easier to review
11:02:12 <timeless> sicking: when mozilla started adding tests to a framework
11:02:17 <timeless> ... it made things much better
11:02:39 <timeless> ... So if we have a formalized framework, and we should pick one, and force everyone [in the webapps WG] to use that one
11:02:44 <timeless> artb: for new tests...
11:03:01 <timeless> shepazu: certainly most of the tests around browser stuff should use the same framework
11:03:18 <timeless> ... there's probably some stuff in W3C outside of browser context where this doesn't make sense
11:03:31 <timeless> ... the SVG group has also agreed to move to the same framework
11:03:54 <timeless> ... with SVG2, things are not going to go into the spec without having tests added
11:03:57 <Barstow> Present+ BoChen, DavidRogers
11:04:05 <timeless> ... until we do that, we'll mark things as under review
11:04:12 <Barstow> Present+ EricU
11:04:15 <timeless> ... I guess i'm just offering a +1 for a common framework as much as possible
11:04:25 <timeless> ... have we talked about testing with WebIDL?
11:04:44 <timeless> ... because if you describe stuff in a spec with webidl, you're going to be able to extract that and do a certain amount of automated tests
11:04:49 <timeless> ... or not?
11:04:49 <Barstow> Present+ AdamB
11:04:57 <timeless> sicking: i'm more of a fan of handwritten tests
11:04:57 <Barstow> RRSAgent, make minutes
11:04:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html Barstow
11:05:01 <timeless> ... i'll believe it when i see it
11:05:20 <timeless> dom: there was a perl tool that i mentioned on public script ...
11:05:29 <timeless> ... that generated tests from idl
11:05:44 <timeless> ... But I agree with jonas that it's better to start with manual tests
11:06:20 <timeless> adrianba: the model that creating things is that you can use automatic creation to simplify basic generation of 
11:06:49 <timeless> sicking: at mozilla we're also looking into automatically testing things that aren't automatically testable
11:07:11 <timeless> ... such as testing interacting with a file picker
11:07:20 <timeless> ... things which require apis which aren't web accessible
11:07:38 <timeless> AnssiK: about function testing... do you have things other than unit testing?
11:07:44 <shepazu> s/automatic creation to simplify basic generation of/automatic creation to simplify basic generation of simpler tests to supplement hand-written tests/
11:07:49 <timeless> sicking: what we do is that we expose a lot of stuff to javascript
11:07:51 <dom> s/public script/public-script-coord/
11:07:58 <timeless> ... to have javascript override the dialog
11:08:05 <timeless> ... we can also fake real clicks on things
11:08:15 <timeless> ... it's being rewritten because the way we did it is not good
11:08:25 <dom> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/2009OctDec/0067.html perl tool to generate test cases based on WebIDL
11:08:27 <timeless> AnssiK: there's a thing called sellenium
11:08:42 <timeless> [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selenium_(software) ]
11:08:53 <timeless> ... which is cross browser
11:08:57 <AnssiK> s/sellenium/Selenium/
11:09:00 <timeless> sicking: we're using a somewhat different approach
11:09:08 <mjs> mjs has joined #webapps
11:09:16 <timeless> shepazu: when i tried to do test first / test in parallel
11:09:20 <timeless> ... i unfortunately failed
11:09:29 <timeless> ... i couldn't get the resources together in order to do that
11:09:45 <adam> Selenium can be automated using something like Hudson https://hudson.dev.java.net/
11:09:59 <timeless> ... do people find testing in parallel to develop tests at the same time as developing the spec
11:10:19 <timeless> David: with WAC we made sure that there are Test Assertions as you write the spec
11:10:29 <dom> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/test-methodology/ A Method for Writing Testable Conformance Requirements
11:10:38 <timeless> ... the outcome of what you want can be written out as the spec is written
11:10:53 <timeless> ... you have a test description file that links back to the spec
11:11:34 <seungjae> seungjae has joined #webapps
11:11:36 <timeless> shepazu: is there interest in imposing this on the WG?
11:11:41 <AnssiK> s/function testing/functional testing/
11:11:49 <timeless> artb: yes, I took an action to work this out
11:11:58 <noah> noah has joined #webapps
11:12:01 <timeless> ... we'd put forward a proposal to the WG
11:12:07 <timeless> ... no one objected
11:12:21 <timeless> adrianba: i volunteered testing resources
11:12:41 <timeless> david: we strongly support any work in testing
11:12:50 <adrianba> s/i volunteered testing resources/i volunteer to help define the process proposal/
11:13:08 <timeless> ... we've had complaints in WAC, the other stuff has been quite difficult for us to test (for lack of tests)
11:13:17 <timeless> Topic: Web DOM Core
11:13:47 <timeless> anne: DOM Level 3 Core was a REC a long time ago
11:14:02 <timeless> ... there's various differences in what web browsers implemented and what the spec says
11:14:22 <timeless> [ anne describes differences ]
11:14:33 <euhrhane> euhrhane has joined #webapps
11:14:53 <mjs> mjs has joined #webapps
11:15:02 <Barstow> ArtB: Web DOM Core abstract: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#abstract
11:15:35 <timeless> anne: there are a few things HTML5 currently defines, which I think should be moved back to DOM Core
11:15:41 <timeless> ... like what createElement does
11:16:09 <shepazu> [here's a short analysis of a case of WRONG_DOCUMENT_ERR: http://www.schepers.cc/svg/blendups/scriptbridge/scriptbridge-insertBug.html ]
11:17:36 <timeless> .... and defining what Document.charset/Document.defaultCharset/... are.
11:17:53 <timeless> ... but leaving HTML to define when it sets them
11:18:26 <timeless> ... there's a more ambitious goal of getting rid of AttrNodes
11:20:52 <timeless> [ sicking talks about DOM UserData]
11:21:02 <mjs> mjs has joined #webapps
11:21:06 <timeless> sicking: i'm surprised no one has got requests for them
11:21:13 <timeless> sam: we have
11:21:21 <timeless> ... but in the past we've said can't you use set property?
11:21:29 <timeless> ... and that's been good enough for them
11:21:48 <timeless> sicking: but you could get conflicts with future specs
11:23:20 <timeless> sicking: yeah i'm all for getting rid of AttrNodes
11:23:30 <timeless> ... i was talking to travis from Microsoft about it
11:23:45 <seungjae> seungjae has joined #webapps
11:23:46 <timeless> ... we might need to add ownerElement on the Attr
11:24:00 <timeless> ... the main goal is to make them not be nodes
11:24:07 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
11:24:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
11:25:15 <timeless> anne: this would move the namespaceURI away from Node
11:25:43 <timeless> sicking: attribute nodes, i know we keep having security issues with
11:26:02 <timeless> anne: the other things, it would be nice to get rid of, but it isn't terribly important
11:26:57 <timeless> anne: namespaceURI is only relevant for Element and Attr
11:27:06 <timeless> sicking: it's useful for simple traversal
11:27:14 <timeless> anne: the main reason is to avoid casting in Java
11:27:27 <timeless> sicking: forms does the same thing, so you can iterate the forms.elements array
11:27:46 <timeless> ... so you can avoid checking the type before getting properties
11:27:54 <timeless> anne: but what would you be doing?
11:27:55 <seungjae> seungjae has joined #webapps
11:28:03 <timeless> sicking: ...i don't know...
11:28:26 <timeless> artb: so, this afternoon will be IndexDB, chaired by Anne
11:28:39 <timeless> sicking: is anyone else planning to try to start removing these things?
11:28:45 <timeless> anne: we don't want to lead
11:28:55 <timeless> sam: webkit would be interested in trying in nightlies
11:29:07 <timeless> anne: we have already removed DOM UserData by not implementing it
11:29:18 <timeless> sam: I have done the same for years, by not implementing it
11:29:35 <timeless> anne: we are not actively removing things, but we have tried to restrain ourselves from implementing things
11:30:02 <timeless> ... we would really like the Attr thing
11:30:26 <timeless> sam: Are there any NodeLists that return Nodes other than Elements?
11:30:34 <timeless> anne: there were. but I tried to kill those
11:30:38 <timeless> ... maybe there are no longer
11:31:42 <timeless> Break for Lunch
11:31:47 <Barstow> RRSAgent, make minutes
11:31:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html Barstow
11:32:29 <adam> adam has left #webapps
11:33:00 <henri> henri has left #webapps
11:37:52 <wonsuk> wonsuk has left #webapps
12:19:41 <jaeyeollim> jaeyeollim has joined #webapps
12:31:07 <timeless_mbp> timeless_mbp has joined #webapps
12:31:17 <myakura> myakura has joined #webapps
12:31:29 <Ileana> Ileana has joined #webapps
12:32:46 <anthony> anthony has joined #webapps
12:34:19 <weinig> weinig has joined #webapps
12:34:24 <anne> anne has joined #webapps
12:34:48 <arun> arun has joined #webapps
12:34:57 <Barstow> Barstow has joined #webapps
12:35:42 <mjs> mjs has joined #webapps
12:36:05 <freedom> freedom has joined #webapps
12:36:32 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #webapps
12:37:23 <adam> adam has joined #webapps
12:37:54 <adrianba> adrianba has joined #webapps
12:38:05 <anne> arun, you there?
12:38:21 <anne> arun, you want to dial in for Indexed DB?
12:38:26 <dom> Zakim, code?
12:38:26 <Zakim> sorry, dom, I don't know what conference this is
12:38:28 <MikeSmith> arun: you got a Skype ID?
12:38:32 <dom> Zakim, this is webapp
12:38:32 <Zakim> dom, I see IA_WebApps(TPAC)4:00AM in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be webapp".
12:38:38 <arun> Hi there Mike
12:38:45 <MikeSmith> hey man
12:38:49 <AnssiK> AnssiK has joined #webapps
12:38:52 <sicking> sicking has joined #webapps
12:38:53 <arun> MikeSmith: I'd like to dialin if possible.
12:38:58 <dom> Zakim, this is webapps
12:38:58 <Zakim> dom, I see IA_WebApps(TPAC)4:00AM in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be webapps".
12:39:02 <dom> Zakim, this is ia_webapps
12:39:02 <Zakim> dom, I see IA_WebApps(TPAC)4:00AM in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be ia_webapps".
12:39:04 <arun> anne: I'd like to dial in if possible.
12:39:09 <dom> Zakim, this will be ia_webapps
12:39:09 <Zakim> ok, dom; I see IA_WebApps(TPAC)4:00AM scheduled to start 279 minutes ago
12:39:33 <Zakim> IA_WebApps(TPAC)4:00AM has now started
12:39:34 <Zakim> +Rhone_3A
12:39:49 <Zakim> + +1.415.294.aaaa
12:39:50 <Zakim> - +1.415.294.aaaa
12:39:50 <Zakim> + +1.415.294.aaaa
12:39:59 <pablo> pablo has joined #webapps
12:40:18 <smaug_> smaug_ has joined #webapps
12:40:26 <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith
12:40:36 <MikeSmith> Topic: IndexedDB
12:40:44 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
12:40:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
12:40:58 <aroben> aroben has joined #webapps
12:41:50 <smaug_> smaug_ has joined #webapps
12:41:52 <adam> Adam Boyet - Boeing
12:42:24 <homata> homata has joined #webapps
12:42:33 <Kai> Kai has joined #webapps
12:43:04 <MikeSmith> Paulo: there is a list of topics on the mailing list
12:43:12 <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010OctDec/0413.html
12:43:25 <adrianba> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010OctDec/0413.html
12:43:29 <MikeSmith> s/Paulo/Pablo/
12:43:33 <jorlow> jorlow has joined #webapps
12:43:35 <bryan> bryan has joined #webapps
12:43:38 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
12:43:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
12:43:44 <bryan> Present+ Bryan_Sullivan
12:43:46 <lgombos_w> lgombos_w has joined #webapps
12:43:47 <sicking> sicking has joined #webapps
12:43:55 <sgondo> sgondo has joined #webapps
12:43:59 <richt> richt has joined #webapps
12:44:13 <eliot> eliot has joined #webapps
12:44:16 <yael> yael has joined #webapps
12:44:24 <MikeSmith> pablo: shall we do Keys?
12:44:41 <MikeSmith> pablo: keys and tables… what we have today is simple keys
12:44:51 <MikeSmith> … compound keys, custom orders
12:44:53 <anne> Indexed DB: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndexedDB/raw-file/tip/Overview.html 
12:44:55 <hidetaka> hidetaka has joined #webapps
12:45:02 <MikeSmith> …e.g., by date + by integer
12:45:10 <MikeSmith> … key value would be an array
12:45:24 <MikeSmith> sicking: not sure what syntax we should use
12:45:31 <chaals> chaals has joined #webapps
12:45:42 <anne> Topic: Keys
12:45:43 <arun> Zakim, aaaa is arun
12:45:43 <Zakim> +arun; got it
12:45:57 <MikeSmith> sicking: one proposal was array of "key paths"
12:47:33 <MikeSmith> jorlow: compound keys, being able to have arrays in your keys; another thing is compound indexes
12:47:37 <igarashi> igarashi has joined #webapps
12:47:46 <MikeSmith> pablo: can't we reduce that to the same problem?
12:47:54 <komasshu> komasshu has joined #webapps
12:48:10 <MikeSmith> jorlow: one or part of the structure of the DB, one is something you can do more ad hoc
12:48:22 <Zakim> + +1.408.446.aabb
12:48:24 <Nikunj> Nikunj has joined #webapps
12:48:26 <MikeSmith> … key could be array one time, a string or something else the next
12:49:03 <anne> who is +1.408.446.aabb? Nikunj?
12:49:07 <Nikunj> Nikunj
12:49:09 <anne> kk
12:49:18 <arun> Zakim, aabb is Nikunj
12:49:18 <Zakim> +Nikunj; got it
12:49:19 <anne> zakim, +1.408.446.aabb is Nikunj
12:49:19 <Zakim> sorry, anne, I do not recognize a party named '+1.408.446.aabb'
12:49:26 <anne> screw you Zakim
12:49:42 <shepazu> Zakim, aabb is Nikunj 
12:49:42 <Zakim> sorry, shepazu, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
12:49:58 <darobin> darobin has joined #webapps
12:50:17 <MikeSmith> pablo: rule of strictly sorting by type, then sort by value is very sharp
12:51:23 <noah> noah has joined #webapps
12:51:24 <MikeSmith> jorlow: another question is, what do we want to do if you ahve a key path to "foo" and you insert an item that doesn't include a "foo"
12:51:34 <dsr> dsr has joined #webapps
12:51:37 <jaeyeollim> jaeyeollim has joined #webapps
12:52:49 <MikeSmith> [discussion about what to do if a key path resolves to an array]
12:53:02 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
12:53:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
12:53:05 <dsr> dsr has left #webapps
12:53:15 <fons> fons has joined #webapps
12:55:49 <MikeSmith> sicking: every place where we currently allow values we should also allows arrays
12:57:55 <MikeSmith> [discussion about difficulty of implementing]
12:57:58 <noahm> noahm has joined #webapps
12:58:07 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
12:58:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
12:58:15 <Johnson> Johnson has joined #webapps
12:58:49 <MikeSmith> [sicking demonstrates with some code]
12:58:59 <noah2> noah2 has joined #webapps
13:00:00 <noah> noah has joined #webapps
13:00:24 <yongil_jang> yongil_jang has joined #webapps
13:00:34 <MikeSmith> Option A is an array is just a single value
13:00:53 <MikeSmith> s/Option A/pablo: Option A/
13:02:59 <davidb> davidb has joined #webapps
13:04:13 <MikeSmith> jorlow: example is that people can have multiple names, and you can construct an index such that multiple names map to the same person
13:04:31 <MikeSmith> pablo: I am not sure about composite keys made of arrays
13:04:45 <Hyeonsoo> Hyeonsoo has joined #webapps
13:06:13 <MikeSmith> sicking: the 2nd case is multiple records pointing to the same object store
13:06:41 <Nikunj> I thought that composite key means there are many parts to a key and that the parts are obtained from different paths
13:07:00 <Nikunj> The discussion seems to be about a single path resolving to multiple values
13:07:27 <MikeSmith> sicking, see Nikunj comment
13:08:31 <MikeSmith> sicking: Nikunj, I agree with your interpretation
13:08:39 <MikeSmith> jorlow: yeah, agreed
13:08:44 <seungjae> seungjae has joined #webapps
13:09:27 <MikeSmith> jorlow: what are we going to do in teh case where you are inserting a value that doesn't include something for a key path
13:09:50 <MikeSmith> e.g., you are inserting a person and you don't include a first name, and the first name is the key
13:11:16 <Nikunj> Multiple keys in an index pointing to a single object is not the same use case as compound key
13:11:18 <MikeSmith> jorlow: pablo, you seem to be worried that any handling of arrays is going to be a lot of work
13:11:33 <igarashi> igarashi has joined #webapps
13:11:42 <Nikunj> The latter is about constructing a key serialization from multiple keypaths
13:11:56 <Nikunj> The former changes the meaning of a key
13:12:41 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
13:12:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
13:13:40 <Nikunj> there is a difference between composite and compound keys
13:13:52 <Nikunj> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_key
13:14:11 <noah> noah has joined #webapps
13:15:07 <arve> arve has joined #webapps
13:16:14 <MikeSmith> sicking: in solution A we can have a mix of values and arrays.
13:16:31 <MikeSmith> jorlow: should be allow keys to be indexes?
13:17:21 <MikeSmith> jorlow: the only use case is, search on multiple keys
13:19:05 <MikeSmith> jorlow: use case 1 is, my DB has people in it, with first name and last name
13:19:34 <MikeSmith> … and I want to search for everybody who has both a certain first name and a certain last name
13:19:55 <MikeSmith> jorlow: use case 2 is @@something @@
13:21:24 <MikeSmith> jorlow: 3rd possibility is first-name entry, last-name entry, then an entry that has both that duplicates the first two
13:22:03 <jorlow> https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1IImAV3hzdqhaiaYfKzb-GWlCgKUDQX3wiXPkqjFFFWg&hl=en&authkey=CIHTwIIM
13:22:05 <MikeSmith> jorlow: choice is, do you want users to have to duplicate their data? or do you want to have duplicated indexes
13:24:24 <MikeSmith> s/@@something @@/database contains people, find person with name "foo", be that first or last name/
13:24:43 <MikeSmith> anne: so there's no AND ?
13:24:56 <MikeSmith> jorlow: there's no query language
13:26:49 <MikeSmith> Nikunj: I am not sure you need composite keys nor compound keys
13:29:26 <MikeSmith> jorlow: specifying a join language is a very big task
13:29:45 <MikeSmith> … for that, you can take whatever we've done so far here and multiply it by 100
13:30:16 <MikeSmith> Nikunj: I am looking for a join _primitive_
13:31:51 <MikeSmith> Topic: internationalization
13:32:26 <MikeSmith> pablo: scenario is, you expect sort order to be in accord with your language
13:32:43 <Nikunj> See http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-WebSimpleDB-20090929/#entity-join for a description of the join primitive
13:34:51 <MikeSmith> sicking: question is, are we happy with having a language on a DB-wide basis? [as opposed to per object store]
13:34:52 <andreip> andreip has joined #webapps
13:34:59 <Johnson> Johnson has joined #webapps
13:35:04 <fons> fons has left #webapps
13:38:31 <anne> http://unicode.org/reports/tr10/
13:42:48 <MikeSmith> Topic: Dynamic transactons:
13:43:17 <MikeSmith> jorlow: my vote is, don't do it
13:49:17 <Nikunj> What is the current topic?
13:49:28 <anne> Transactions
13:50:14 <anne> ... all transactions have time-consistency
13:50:26 <anne> ... how implementations achieve that is up to the implementation
13:50:41 <anne> ... for writers you can only have one writer happening at the time
13:50:48 <anne> ... unless they are separate object stores/tables
13:51:15 <anne> ... you could figure out the overlap and be very smart... whatever (something like that)
13:51:35 <anne> ... should be some more non-normative text that explains this
13:52:04 <anne> JS: if you start two transactions; is there any guarantee with respect to order?
13:52:38 <anne> JO: I don't think so; get weird behavior with locking; would be shame as we get less concurrency
13:52:46 <anne> JS: what if there is overlap
13:53:07 <anne> JS: read, readrequest, write, writerequest
13:53:18 <anne> JO: no order guaranteed
13:53:47 <anne> JS: sounds very racy
13:53:58 <anne> JO: if you cared do not start them at the same time
13:54:24 <anne> Pablo: I don't think it is strictly a race
13:54:33 <anne> JO: what is the use for starting them at the same time?
13:54:40 <anne> Pablo: there should not be starvation
13:54:44 <anne> JS: already says that
13:55:07 <anne> JS: in Firefox there's no raceness and you always know the order
13:55:22 <anne> JS: and no starvation either
13:55:36 <anne> JO: I can't think of any reason you start these and expect them to run in the same order
13:56:25 <anne> thank you darobin
13:56:35 <junliao> junliao has joined #webapps
13:56:59 <anne> Pablo: workers also introduce these problems
13:59:19 <anne> Topic: synchronous API
14:00:17 <anne> within one worker you can only have one transaction
14:00:34 <anne> that assumes requiring locks is in order
14:01:21 <anne> make minutes
14:01:25 <anne> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:01:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html anne
14:01:31 <mjs> ScribeNick weinig
14:01:44 <weinig> js: you already have to lock tables
14:02:51 <weinig> js: we have to make the transaction function take a callback
14:03:05 <weinig> pablo: why can't we make the second transaction fail
14:03:41 <weinig> js: it would be very confusing for two independent libraries to interact together
14:04:04 <weinig> pablo: that syntax seems very unwieldily
14:05:24 <weinig> jo: the function is just defining scope
14:05:38 <weinig> js: transactions within the function will throw
14:05:52 <weinig> jo: is anyone planning to implement sync
14:06:02 <weinig> jo: should we have a warning in the spec?
14:06:19 <weinig> jo: editors should try and keep sync and async in sync
14:07:00 <weinig> pablo: is everyone planning on doing async in main context and sync and async in workers?
14:07:03 <weinig> everyone: yes
14:07:14 <Nikunj> can implementors provide an update on their implementation status/plans
14:07:27 <weinig> pablo: should transactions be allowed in transactions?
14:08:56 <weinig> jo: maybe we should have an open nested transaction
14:09:16 <weinig> pablo: everything you would need to do you can do off the transaction 
14:09:32 <hidetaka> hidetaka has joined #webapps
14:09:33 <weinig> pablo: lets ignore the last few lines
14:10:32 <Zakim> -Nikunj
14:11:57 <Zakim> -arun
14:21:00 <hidetaka> hidetaka has joined #webapps
14:32:18 <yongil_jang> yongil_jang has left #webapps
14:36:40 <pererik> pererik has joined #webapps
14:41:13 <ArtB> ArtB has joined #webapps
14:42:05 <anne> scribe: anne
14:42:31 <adrianba> adrianba has joined #webapps
14:42:55 <Ileana> Ileana has left #webapps
14:43:01 <Ileana> Ileana has joined #webapps
14:43:10 <komasshu> komasshu has joined #webapps
14:44:29 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:44:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
14:45:12 <Ileana> Ileana has left #webapps
14:45:17 <Ileana> Ileana has joined #webapps
14:45:33 <anne> Topic: Bugzilla
14:45:49 <anne> RESOLVED: not automatically assign to Nikunj; MikeSmith to follow up
14:46:18 <anne> We have room number 4 all day tomorrow
14:46:22 <anne> times to be announced
14:46:37 <MikeSmith> if the problem is that Nikunj is not in the tracker DB I can add him now
14:47:00 <anne> Topic: quotas
14:47:27 <anne> Pablo: by default we are not going to let apps fill the disk; so what to do
14:47:30 <MikeSmith> trackbot, status?
14:47:35 <anne> Pablo: lots of degrees of freedom
14:47:58 <anne> MikeSmith, it would be nice if it was assigned to a nobody instead since Nikunj is not the only editor
14:48:06 <MikeSmith> hai
14:48:10 <MikeSmith> I will change it now
14:48:11 <anne> Pablo: bytes are not necessarily meaningful as a unit
14:48:14 <Zakim> +arun
14:48:14 <anne> great
14:48:15 <Zakim> -arun
14:48:15 <Zakim> +arun
14:48:48 <yongil_jang> yongil_jang has joined #webapps
14:49:24 <anne> Pablo: first attempt to use the database; anything the app needs to do?
14:50:14 <anne> SQL DB estimated size argument was very confusing
14:50:58 <anne> Dealing with size constraints:
14:51:05 <anne> 1) no API impact
14:51:30 <anne> Chrome has a hard limit (with a non-specced error)
14:53:58 <anne> conclusion seems to be that some kind of quota error is needed
14:56:29 <noah> noah has joined #webapps
14:56:47 <freedom> freedom has joined #webapps
14:56:53 <anne> the spec does not say you create the index asynchronously
14:56:59 <anne> JO: i think it is implied
14:57:05 <anne> Pablo: it should be explicit
14:57:18 <anne> JO: i think it is in there, maybe should be more explained
14:57:50 <anne> JO: if it fails it fails the transaction
14:57:57 <mjs> mjs has joined #webapps
14:58:51 <anne> Does there need to be a way for asking for more space?
14:59:41 <anne> adrianba: in SilverLight we wanted to give the app more control
14:59:57 <pablo> pablo has joined #webapps
15:00:17 <anne> adrianba: if e.g. you download a huge file you do not want the UA to have to ask and ask again
15:00:22 <anne> adrianba: but instead allocate once
15:00:32 <andreip> andreip has joined #webapps
15:01:30 <Zakim> -arun
15:02:03 <anne> JO: use cases are caching and some kind of permanent storage (i.e. offline written email)
15:02:13 <anne> Pablo: impossible for us to decide
15:02:21 <anne> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:02:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html anne
15:02:44 <anne> s/permanent/persistent/
15:03:47 <anne> JO: in Chrome we plan to group APIs together
15:03:58 <anne> JO: if you get 10 MB you can use it for several APIs
15:04:58 <anne> AvK: for the hint for the pre-allocation of memory case it should be a generic API if we are heading in that direction
15:07:00 <Zakim> +arun
15:07:01 <Zakim> -arun
15:07:01 <Zakim> +arun
15:07:21 <anne> JO: for the persistant vs temporary case that should be noted on the object store
15:07:40 <anne> JO: maybe change createObjectStore (or something like that) to take this as parameter
15:08:24 <anne> Topic: blobs
15:09:27 <anne> adrianba: how long do blobs persist?
15:09:30 <Nikunj> Nikunj has joined #webapps
15:09:32 <anne> JS: tied to the Window object
15:11:23 <anne> Eric: if you want to change a Blob you create a new one
15:13:55 <anne> Eric: you cannot create a File at the moment
15:13:57 <mackbot> mackbot has joined #webapps
15:14:19 <anne> Eric: a file has a last modified time and a name
15:15:16 <anne> Pablo: I'm assuming when you store it in the DB it is a copy
15:15:19 <freedom> freedom has joined #webapps
15:15:28 <mackbot> mackbot has left #webapps
15:17:56 <anne> JS: I hope Indexed DB to be enough
15:18:10 <anne> JS: not need a File System
15:18:22 <darobin> darobin has joined #webapps
15:18:54 <bryan> bryan has joined #webapps
15:19:24 <arun> arun has joined #webapps
15:19:45 <arun> Zakim, who is on the call?
15:19:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see Rhone_3A, arun
15:19:50 <Johnson> Johnson has joined #webapps
15:21:57 <anne> JS: I don't want File System to have a capability that Indexed DB does not
15:22:10 <anne> which is that you can modify a file that is stored
15:22:17 <anne> (if the scribe gets it correctly)
15:22:52 <mjs> mjs has joined #webapps
15:23:29 <anne> [questions on this topic are best asked on the list]
15:25:33 <anne> Topic: Indexed DB Last Call
15:25:33 <noahm> noahm has joined #webapps
15:25:38 <anne> JO: should we set goals
15:26:41 <anne> adrianba: address the existing issues
15:26:49 <anne> JO: full text search is important
15:27:14 <anne> JO: not gonna be efficient with what we have now
15:27:41 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:27:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
15:28:28 <anne> JO: full text search is extremely important to Google
15:28:41 <sgondo> sgondo has joined #webapps
15:28:51 <arun> Full text search was important to external developers as well.
15:29:00 <anne> JO: I hope that one or two changes to the API can make this possible
15:30:15 <anne> JO: I want to get proof first, before adding something to the specification
15:31:42 <mjs> mjs has joined #webapps
15:32:13 <anne> synchronizing...
15:32:45 <anne> Pablo: some kind of tracking
15:32:51 <anne> tombstones?
15:33:02 <anne> [further discussion on list]
15:36:51 <mjs> mjs has joined #webapps
15:36:55 <euhrhane> euhrhane has joined #webapps
15:37:30 <ericu> ericu has joined #webapps
15:39:52 <anne> arun, you still here?
15:40:00 <arun> anne, yep
15:40:06 <anne> cool
15:40:33 <anne> I guess Jonas can go through the File API mostly
15:40:38 <anne> might be tricky over the phone
15:40:49 <arun> anne, it's cool.  I can hear you guys really clearly
15:40:56 <arun> anne, if I need to speak I'll just speak up.
15:41:05 <pererik_> pererik_ has joined #webapps
15:41:31 <arun> anne, you can refer to the email I sent about agenda stuff if you like.
15:42:01 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #webapps
15:42:11 <anne> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/TPAC2010
15:42:17 <anne> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/FileAPI/
15:42:21 <anne> Topic: File API
15:43:20 <arun> anne is the URL string trouble maker
15:47:00 <jorlow> scribe: jorlow
15:47:46 <jorlow> anne, doesn't like adding 2 more methods to window
15:47:59 <jorlow> arun, any other solution is back to the drawing board
15:48:12 <jorlow> anne, vendor prefixing might help limit usage
15:48:23 <jorlow> anne, but we still need to find the right solution
15:49:37 <andreip> andreip has joined #webapps
15:50:17 <jorlow> ericu, stuff put on the global object so that stuff is tied to the lifetime of the window
15:50:34 <jorlow> jonas: when window is nagivated away, all urls are revoked
15:50:41 <jorlow> sam: you can do that regaurless of the syntax
15:51:00 <jorlow> ericu: what about if you pass from one window to another?  this is more explicit
15:51:07 <jorlow> sam, disagrees
15:52:00 <jorlow> jonas, is fine with other suggestions.  thinks reusing url is weird because it's only somewhat related
15:52:15 <Peter`> Peter` has joined #webapps
15:52:18 <jorlow> sam, so you could just have a blobURI object 
15:53:06 <jorlow> jonas, an object might make sense....something about domURL
15:53:17 <jorlow> anne, don't you want to stringify it as well?
15:53:20 <jorlow> jonas, no
15:53:44 <jorlow> jonas, you'd create an object from a string
15:53:54 <dveditz> dveditz has joined #webapps
15:54:03 <jorlow> anne, you're still not solving the problem
15:54:10 <jorlow> jonas, trying to solve 2 problmes
15:54:32 <jorlow> jonas, something so we don't create strings...for that, need to create a new type of interface...call it domURL for now
15:54:54 <jorlow> anne, domURL could be some union type of blob and stream
15:55:24 <jorlow> jonas, don't want create to be through some constructor and revoke through a completely different api
15:56:13 <jorlow> jonas: we coudl create a global dummy object with both methods
15:56:49 <jorlow> arun: is it worth make global dummy object the same thing being specced by adam barth
15:56:51 <jorlow> no
15:57:18 <jorlow> jonas: abarth's thing is to solve parsing urls.  this isn't want we need to do with blob urls
15:57:24 <jorlow> anne: not so sure
15:58:17 <jorlow> jonas: there's a vague resemblance given that they both revolve around URLs
15:58:19 <jorlow> sam: agrees
15:58:27 <jorlow> sam: especially since adam's thing doens't exist yet
15:58:40 <jorlow> sam: can we discuss other things?
15:58:55 <jorlow> jonas: the proposed solution is some global object where we put 2 functions
15:59:07 <jorlow> anne: is there some existing place we could put them?
15:59:30 <jorlow> sam: maybe window.blob?  but you want to do it for stream too so maybe that's not a good place
15:59:40 <mjs> mjs has joined #webapps
16:00:03 <jorlow> ericu and others: k, let's move on
16:00:11 <timeless> s/coudl/could/
16:00:30 <timeless> s/doens't/doesn't/
16:00:44 <jorlow> sam: 2 questions.  file list has been redefined to be a sequence of files rather than a simple object.  our implementation has file lists like node lists.  sequence doesn't have an item function. 
16:00:52 <jorlow> anne: cameron said sequence isn't for that type of thing
16:01:02 <jorlow> jonas: saw hixie open a bug on something similar today
16:01:11 <jorlow> sam: in the mean time, should we go back to the simple interface?
16:01:18 <jorlow> anne: file lists should probably follow others
16:01:31 <jorlow> general agreement
16:02:08 <jorlow> sam: file reader + write have event handler attributes but don't inherit from event target.
16:02:12 <jorlow> arun: it does
16:02:17 <jorlow> sam: sees it...what about writer?
16:02:20 <jorlow> ericu: if so, it's a bug
16:02:35 <jorlow> anne: we should have some consistency 
16:02:59 <jorlow> sam: using implements probably makes sense (vs. inheriting) in the spec
16:03:06 <jorlow> arun: agrees with sam
16:03:19 <jorlow> anne: XHR inherits
16:03:30 <jorlow> sam: in webkit, event target isn't in the prototype chain
16:03:37 <jorlow> sam: does it affect it though?
16:03:46 <jorlow> anne: maybe xhr should change
16:03:52 <jorlow> jonas: no advantage to not inheriting
16:04:18 <jorlow> sam: let's avoid multiple inheritance
16:04:25 <jorlow> jonas: agrees
16:04:37 <jorlow> jonas: but most of these thigns don't inherit
16:04:41 <jorlow> anne: XHR does
16:04:49 <jorlow> jonas: but you can add it to the bottom of the chain
16:04:49 <timeless> s/thigns/things/
16:05:13 <jorlow> sam: everything in svg uses multiple inheritance
16:05:16 <AnssiK> Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
16:05:46 <jorlow> sam: we should probably bring this up as a WebIDL issue
16:06:05 <jorlow> jonas: it's unfortuate you can't add stuff to event target prototype
16:06:17 <jorlow> sam: if we could solve multiple inheritance in a good way, then maybe it's a non-issue
16:06:45 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:06:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:06:46 <jorlow> sam: jonas, are you coming to tc39?
16:06:48 <jorlow> jonas: yes
16:06:55 <jorlow> anne: does it have anything more on file api?
16:07:13 <jorlow> s/does it/do we/
16:08:11 <MikeSmith> s/Transactions/scribe: anne/
16:08:15 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:08:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:08:40 <jorlow> jonas: request from google...when you request url, wants to do something related to content type (didn't understand)
16:08:45 <jorlow> i didn't understand
16:08:46 <arun> arun: do we still have URL string dereferencing behavior?
16:09:10 <jorlow> ericu: right now content type is a property of blob
16:09:30 <jorlow> ericu: we could add these properties to blob directly
16:09:48 <jorlow> arun: only contnet disposition was asked for
16:10:14 <jorlow> arun: just like content type
16:10:23 <MikeSmith> i/What is the current topic/scribe: anne
16:10:26 <timeless> s/contnet/content/
16:10:28 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:10:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:10:55 <MikeSmith> dunno
16:10:57 <jorlow> jonas: darin fisher has asked for content disposition.  jonas has said to use file save back to him
16:11:09 <jorlow> jonas: and point the file saver to the blob directly
16:11:29 <jorlow> ericu: we want blob url to work just like any other
16:11:36 <arun> arun: right, so instead of Content-Disposition on Blob URLs, you have a URL argument to the FileSave constructor.
16:12:06 <jorlow> ericu: gmail offline, for example, wants to be able to view and download with similar code.  just different urls.  presentation layer stays same, but backend just gives different urls
16:12:21 <jorlow> sam: not sure he understands why you'd create a url from a blob and pass it to an XHR
16:12:27 <jorlow> jonas: not sure anyone suggested this
16:12:39 <jorlow> sam: isn't that the reason to set headers: to get it through XHR?
16:12:44 <jorlow> jonas: no, it was just to explain
16:12:50 <jorlow> jonas: iframes care about headers
16:13:16 <freedom> freedom has joined #webapps
16:13:29 <jorlow> jonas: to do gmail file saving, create iframe, take blob, create url, content dis. header, iframe looks at that header, it works
16:13:34 <jorlow> ericu: can't you do that today?
16:13:54 <jorlow> ericu: only need iframe trick if you don't have content disposition header
16:13:58 <jorlow> ericu: wait...hm...
16:14:09 <jorlow> jonas: link with target: _blank
16:14:12 <jorlow> sam: that opens a window
16:14:26 <jorlow> anne: behavior varries
16:14:29 <jorlow> sam: agreed
16:14:34 <jorlow> sam: very marginal use case
16:14:49 <jorlow> jonas: it's a very roundabout way of triggering file save dialog
16:14:54 <arun> arun: +1 to sam, sicking
16:14:59 <jorlow> ericu: urls have these properties already
16:15:13 <jorlow> ericu: making offline urls work just like online urls seems nice
16:15:21 <jorlow> sam: they're more a property of the resource, not the url itself
16:15:38 <jorlow> jonas: it's actually a property of the person initiating the load
16:15:44 <jorlow> jonas: make file save support taking url
16:15:50 <jorlow> jonas: same architecture for blobs and urls
16:16:07 <jorlow> sam: some browsers default behavior is not prompt and download to directory
16:16:17 <jorlow> sam: so that'd behave differently
16:16:38 <jorlow> sam: iframe with content disposition treated as download, file saver treated as save as
16:16:47 <jorlow> jonas: i'm not sure we'd behave differently
16:17:17 <jorlow> timeless: we shipped that behavior 2+ years ago
16:17:31 <timeless> [we = Mozilla/Firefox]
16:17:37 <jorlow> ericu: if you want file saver to do the default, that's another behavior
16:18:26 <jorlow> jonas: if people only want a download mechanism, we should do it right not extend hack
16:18:33 <jorlow> arun: hack exists for http reasons
16:18:50 <jorlow> arun: ericu's "uber question" is a good one
16:18:57 <jorlow> ericu: allowing all headers in seems cleaner
16:19:07 <jorlow> anne: it's complicated if we only care about content disposition 
16:19:23 <jorlow> sam: setting something like x frame options could be useful
16:20:17 <jorlow> sam: my recollection are that most of these things are attributed to the resource not the url
16:20:36 <jorlow> sam: it seems a bit hackish to set headers on a blob
16:21:03 <jorlow> ericu: agrees.  a blob might never be used as a url
16:21:35 <jorlow> ericu: in some cases, the headers are more assicated with the url rather than the resource itself
16:21:44 <jorlow> jonas: this discussion has gotten a bit meta
16:21:57 <jorlow> jonas: should the headers arguments exist on the blob or create url function
16:22:07 <jorlow> sam: that's one question. the other is whether we need the headers
16:22:17 <jorlow> ericu: likes headers.  if we have them, put them on createURL function
16:23:07 <jorlow> anne: let's move discussion to list
16:23:18 <jorlow> anne: talks about his sneaky plan
16:23:47 <jorlow> ericu: we can go back to file after writer/system questions
16:23:57 <timeless> the example for using URL instead of Blob to have the bits is to match Gmail where an image attachment has View and Download links - two urls to the same blob data
16:24:06 <jorlow> ericu: doesn't have any issues to bring up
16:24:11 <jorlow> anne: can you give a quick introduction?
16:24:37 <jorlow> ericu: does said introcution...
16:24:43 <timeless> s/cut/duct/
16:25:03 <timeless> Topic: FileSaver
16:25:27 <anne> s/FileSaver/File: Writer and File: Systems and Directories/
16:25:40 <timeless> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:25:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html timeless
16:26:19 <jorlow> sam: so file writer sync doesn't not pop up a dialog?
16:26:27 <timeless> s/introcution/introduction/
16:26:30 <jorlow> ericu: yup
16:26:41 <jorlow> ericu: this is just a writing interface...doesn't describe how to get access
16:26:51 <jorlow> ericu: file system spec gives another away to get access to a file
16:27:05 <jorlow> ericu: otherwise the only way is file saver
16:27:18 <jorlow> ericu: file system is like a chrooted environment to create dirs, files, etc
16:27:33 <jorlow> ericu: file system is good if your data isn't structured
16:27:45 <jorlow> ericu: game designers want this for art assets, for example
16:27:59 <jorlow> sam: what about indexedb
16:28:02 <jorlow> jorlow: or app cache
16:28:10 <jorlow> ericu: not good match for app cache...it's all or nothing
16:28:17 <timeless> q?
16:28:19 <jorlow> jonas: thinks system is not needed
16:28:25 <jorlow> jonas: because of indexedDB
16:28:40 <jorlow> sam: data cache or an extension to app cache might have worked as well
16:28:43 <jorlow> ericu: yes
16:28:49 <jorlow> sam: waht about various databases
16:28:54 <timeless> s/waht/what/
16:28:57 <jorlow> sam: jonas's face was scary
16:29:03 <jorlow> ericu: it's a matter of taste
16:29:29 <jorlow> sam: seems like adding this much API surface area for a matter of taste is bad taste
16:29:33 <jorlow> ericu: it's more than just taste
16:29:34 <arun> arun: I agree with ericu about it being a matter of taste.  Some like file system based metaphors, and some like databases for everything.
16:29:44 <jorlow> ericu: sharing data with apps outside of the browser is good too
16:30:16 <jorlow> sam: indexedDB could store files in the file system if it wanted to
16:30:32 <jorlow> ericu: that seems odd.  no hierarchy 
16:30:36 <jorlow> jonas: yeah, no meta data
16:30:41 <jorlow> ericu: gives a use case
16:30:52 <jorlow> sam: if that's a use case, it should be explicit in spec
16:31:05 <jorlow> sam: and what about when file system doesn't exist
16:31:11 <Wuk> Wuk has joined #webapps
16:31:13 <jorlow> ericu: that's one reason to make it explicit in the spec
16:31:38 <jorlow> ericu: it's a significant motivator, but not required
16:31:45 <yongil_jang> yongil_jang has joined #webapps
16:31:58 <jorlow> jorlow: you could store meta data ad-hoc in indexedDB if you wanted to
16:32:11 <jorlow> jonas: the meta data will be understandable by other apps
16:32:58 <jorlow> jonas: hurdle: some people are nervous about allowing websites to save stuff to a known location
16:33:32 <jorlow> sam: we probably want to add changes to mac os X to allow ..?
16:33:43 <jorlow> ericu: in current implementation, files not saved in known location
16:33:52 <jorlow> ericu: describes the hack
16:34:35 <jorlow> ericu: many apps know how to scan a hierarchy of dirs (that can scan it in)
16:34:49 <jorlow> timeless: then you just exploit some app like iTunes or picassa
16:34:54 <jorlow> adrianba: what about social engineering
16:35:36 <jorlow> ericu: opening a file deep in the chrome profile dir...?
16:35:46 <jorlow> ericu: and your av software should still run on it
16:35:55 <jorlow> adrianba: they have support for knowing the source of the download
16:35:57 <timeless> s/picassa/Picasa/
16:36:09 <jorlow> sam: mac os x too
16:36:40 <jorlow> jorlow: can't the file system api just set the bits
16:36:41 <timeless> windows too
16:36:51 <BoChen> BoChen has joined #webapps
16:37:01 <jorlow> adrianba: we distinguish between url and site
16:37:39 <jorlow> ericu: this makes it slightly harder, but it's not a fundamental issue
16:38:07 <jorlow> adrianba: allowing a web application to save something without immediate consent of user...then social engineering
16:38:35 <timeless> [ such as attacking Sherlock, Google Desktop Search ]
16:38:50 <jorlow> ericu: it's a valid concern and i understand.  you might just need to tweak the reputation system a bit to handle this case
16:39:06 <jorlow> sam: my issue is not security, it's that we already have a lot of storage options
16:39:23 <jorlow> sam: unnecessary risk to throw 2 new APIs at the web at once
16:39:34 <Ileana> Ileana has left #webapps
16:39:43 <Ileana> Ileana has joined #webapps
16:39:48 <arun> OK big +1 to weinig
16:39:50 <jorlow> ericu: well it's not there yet and it won't necessarily be popular
16:39:58 <jorlow> sam: but it can never be removed
16:40:17 <Ileana> Ileana has left #webapps
16:40:45 <jorlow> jorlow: isn't it behind prefix
16:40:49 <jorlow> timeless: that doens't matter much
16:40:55 <jorlow> ericu: and actually our implementation is not behind prefix
16:41:01 <jorlow> ericu: which is a fair objection
16:41:09 <jorlow> ericu: a number of devs asked for it
16:41:14 <jorlow> sam: web sql is same
16:41:16 <timeless> s/doens't/doesn't/
16:41:26 <jorlow> sam: we should have been more careful and not do it
16:42:02 <freedom> freedom has left #webapps
16:42:07 <jorlow> sam: has actual question
16:42:17 <jorlow> sam: file saver sync doesn't seem to have an actual interface attached to it?
16:42:22 <jorlow> ericu: will fix it
16:42:30 <jorlow> sam: from worker, would you pop up save dialog
16:42:35 <jorlow> sam: what window would it be attached to
16:42:49 <jorlow> ericu: shared worker is an odd case
16:43:18 <jorlow> jorlow: brought up more shared worker issues similar
16:43:23 <jorlow> ericu: yeah...we need to fix some stuff
16:43:37 <jorlow> jonas: want file save to be able to handle the url
16:43:50 <jorlow> jonas: content disposition is a hack, so it'd be nice to move away from it
16:43:57 <arun> Yeah; while we hash out headers on Blob URIs, I think it's good to allow FileSaver to have a URL argument
16:44:00 <kennyluck> kennyluck has joined #webapps
16:44:20 <arun> Zakim, mute arun
16:44:20 <Zakim> arun should now be muted
16:44:25 <jorlow> sam: people already hack around it, iframe trick might as well become official
16:44:40 <mjs> mjs has joined #webapps
16:45:10 <jorlow> sam: anne are you editing progress events?
16:45:46 <jorlow> sam: is there going to be some way to say some interface implements something...rather than repeating the work for each progress event
16:45:56 <jorlow> jonas: there's some web idl way to say supplemental, but reverse
16:46:13 <jorlow> ericu: onload start, and that doesn't make sense when you're writing
16:46:27 <anne> http://www.w3.org/TR/progress-events/
16:46:59 <jorlow> jonas: interesting situation when you want progress events for something other than loads since much of them have load in the name
16:47:05 <jorlow> anne: they're actually specced to be pretty vague
16:47:12 <jorlow> anne: can't rename them at this point
16:47:27 <jorlow> adrianba: could you have multiple names for something
16:47:57 <jorlow> sam: this is a bad idea because events are expensive, therefore firing 2 events is expensive
16:48:19 <jorlow> sam: we've done this for focus and DOM (yell) Focus
16:48:45 <jorlow> mjs: you can't actually alias because of add event listener's semantics
16:48:52 <jorlow> jonas: agreed, aliasing is bad
16:49:13 <jorlow> anne: the event names are just suggestions
16:49:22 <jorlow> anne: you can call your events whatever you want
16:49:42 <jorlow> jonas: it makes sense to do things this way
16:50:03 <jorlow> sam: should they be save start?
16:50:14 <jorlow> ericu: filewriter derives from this and uses the same events
16:50:25 <jorlow> jonas: the interface names are fully generic
16:50:32 <jorlow> anne: interface still has loaded
16:50:46 <jorlow> ericu: I think I just put done?
16:51:01 <jorlow> ericu: going to fix the spec
16:51:36 <jorlow> mjs: we should change the syntax of html
16:51:48 <mjs> </sarcasm>
16:51:53 <jorlow> ericu: taking a step back....
16:52:16 <jorlow> sam: when people implement event listeners, the event they get will be a little funny because it has words like loaded
16:52:45 <jorlow> anne: inherited progress events from svg...no one backed me up
16:52:52 <jorlow> mjs: lots of bike shedding
16:53:05 <jorlow> jonas: it sucks to add aliases
16:53:22 <jorlow> sam: maybe add progress of loaded that calls the same underlying function
16:53:29 <jorlow> sam: bytes progressed maybe?
16:53:35 <jorlow> jonas: just use progress
16:54:09 <jorlow> anne: we do have some aliased properties elsewhere I guess
16:54:53 <jorlow> anne: let's leave "early"
16:55:06 <jorlow> anne's chairing skillz are celebrated
16:55:39 <anne> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:55:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-webapps-minutes.html anne
16:58:49 <Zakim> -Rhone_3A
16:58:59 <shepazu> Zakim, end telcon
16:58:59 <Zakim> I don't understand 'end telcon', shepazu
16:59:37 <Zakim> -arun
16:59:38 <Zakim> IA_WebApps(TPAC)4:00AM has ended
16:59:40 <Zakim> Attendees were Rhone_3A, +1.415.294.aaaa, arun, +1.408.446.aabb, Nikunj
17:03:25 <hidetaka> hidetaka has joined #webapps
17:05:11 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #webapps
17:05:12 <richt> richt has joined #webapps
17:06:12 <jgraham> jgraham has joined #webapps
17:12:00 <chaals> chaals has joined #webapps
17:12:34 <hidetaka_> hidetaka_ has joined #webapps
17:17:22 <homata> homata has joined #webapps
17:21:10 <sicking> sicking has joined #webapps
17:21:30 <myakura> myakura has joined #webapps
17:22:46 <Nikunj> Nikunj has joined #webapps
17:26:29 <sicking> sicking has joined #webapps
17:38:56 <jorlow> jorlow has joined #webapps
17:46:28 <AnssiK> AnssiK has joined #webapps
17:55:43 <jorlow> jorlow has joined #webapps
17:59:05 <Nikunj> Nikunj has left #webapps
18:07:08 <Hixie> Hixie has joined #webapps
18:45:48 <dveditz> dveditz has joined #webapps
19:04:13 <AnssiK> AnssiK has joined #webapps
19:11:51 <Zakim> Zakim has left #webapps
19:36:56 <arve> arve has joined #webapps
19:44:08 <anne> anne has joined #webapps
20:32:41 <arun> arun has joined #webapps
20:40:26 <Martijnc> Martijnc has joined #webapps
21:13:06 <Nikunj> Nikunj has joined #webapps
21:23:55 <hidetaka> hidetaka has joined #webapps
21:36:45 <smaug_> smaug_ has joined #webapps
22:40:40 <arun> arun has joined #webapps
22:55:20 <jorlow> jorlow has joined #webapps
23:06:46 <Nikunj> Nikunj has joined #webapps
23:14:50 <Peter-> Peter- has joined #webapps