IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-11-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

09:54:03 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
09:54:03 [RRSAgent]
logging to
09:54:08 [foolip]
Zakim, who is here?
09:54:08 [Zakim]
sorry, foolip, I don't know what conference this is
09:54:09 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, JF, Joshue, janina, hsivonen, foolip, MikeSmith, MichaelC, silvia, oedipus, sideshow, trackbot
09:54:20 [foolip]
Zakim: conferences?
09:54:23 [stefan]
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09:54:46 [janina]
zakim, this will be html-a11y
09:54:46 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, janina
09:55:25 [foolip]
foolip is on phone, is Philip Jägenstedt from Opera Software
09:56:07 [Joshue]
JS: The subteam has created a doc called user requirements.
09:56:18 [Joshue]
JS: I am really happy we have discussion, it was needed.
09:56:58 [Joshue]
JS: General history and background.
09:57:09 [foolip]
We are talking about
09:58:07 [Joshue]
meeting: HTML Media A11y Subteam
09:58:25 [oedipus]
09:58:26 [JF]
morning silvia
09:59:03 [oedipus]
silvia, passcode is 92743# (WAIPF#)
10:00:28 [Joshue]
JS: John, Sylvia any comments?
10:00:36 [Joshue]
JF: Good summary..
10:00:52 [Joshue]
JS: So how do we move forward?
10:01:11 [Joshue]
HS: I objected to adopting the requirements.
10:01:30 [oedipus]
10:01:35 [frankolivier]
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10:01:38 [Joshue]
HS: The req doc has stuff that is not a11y requirements IMO.
10:01:52 [Joshue]
HS: There is also the issue of what it means to adopt the reqs.
10:03:05 [Joshue]
HS: We are concerned about objections that relate to features that are not a11y related.g. Codecs, copyright meta data.
10:03:40 [Joshue]
HS: The details of the Codecs are not related to a11y.
10:03:41 [MichaelC]
present: Janina_Sajka, Stefan_Schnabel, Michael_Cooper, Henri_Sivonen, Joshue_O'Connor, Artur_Ortega, Frank_Olivier, Gregory_Rosmaita, John_Foliot
10:03:48 [oedipus]
silvia, i mis-typed -- the actual passcode is 92473# (WAIPF#)
10:04:44 [MichaelC]
present+ Philip_Jägenstedt
10:05:36 [Joshue]
HS: The HTML 5 Wg has not come to a general concensus on what codec to require. I am concerned that unrelated a11y issues are included in a doc as a11y requirements.
10:06:31 [MichaelC]
zakim, move 92473 to here
10:06:33 [Zakim]
ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PFWG(WAIPF)3:00AM
10:07:13 [Joshue]
HS: Who will be affected by not including copyright meta data?
10:07:25 [JF]
10:08:39 [homata]
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10:08:46 [Joshue]
JS: This can effect people with disabilities as captioning was not happening if the meta data was not there, as of the source material did not have copyrighting meta data, then the captioning may not happen.
10:08:49 [Zakim]
10:08:54 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
10:08:54 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
10:09:22 [MichaelC]
present+ Silvia_Pfeiffer
10:09:42 [Joshue]
JF: We need to have a means of including a way to get at this meta data.. its only one type, there is also Dublin Core.. adding meta data to transcipts is not overly complex..etc
10:10:02 [oedipus]
closed-captioning is thought of as a real-time transcription of what is said and indications of ambient sounds, and historically has been viewed as repllicating the content of the captioned item
10:10:10 [Joshue]
JS: HS asked a good question, I don't know if there is a diff whether in band or in meta data.
10:10:14 [oedipus]
audio description goes off-script to provide descriptions that are essential to an understanding of the content
10:10:46 [Joshue]
JS: Don't want to get hung up on definition.Our issue is that copyright data gets carried effectively.
10:10:54 [Joshue]
JS: We need an effective mechanism.
10:11:31 [Joshue]
HS: My problem is that the doc states MUST requirements.
10:11:33 [oedipus]
10:11:38 [Joshue]
JS: Could you give us some examples?
10:11:44 [JF]
ack JF
10:12:08 [Joshue]
HS: You could take out the requiements to add copyright meta data, take out the entire requirement?
10:12:13 [Joshue]
JS: No.
10:13:06 [Joshue]
HS: Specific implementation requirements mean that, if the requirements change in the future, I hope we don't fail to meet future requirements if things are currently over specified.
10:13:54 [Joshue]
HS: It should not be presented as it is. If its an inventory thats fine, it doesn't read like this.
10:14:07 [Joshue]
JS: Is there a problem about carrying copyright data?
10:14:12 [JF]
We shouldn't be designing HTML (a language that will be with us for
10:14:14 [JF]
decades) around the short-term solutions. Problems in the platform should be fixed correctly, not using band-aid techniques.
10:14:30 [Joshue]
HS: No, I don't object to that. My concern is overspecifiying in the spec.
10:14:40 [Joshue]
HS: I would like to remove the requirement.
10:14:52 [silvia]
10:14:55 [oedipus]
we have to provide the tools to make the information understandable -- all the tools need to be in the toolbox, authors can use items from that toolbox
10:14:57 [Joshue]
JS: We need to include it.
10:15:11 [oedipus]
10:15:13 [oedipus]
10:15:19 [Joshue]
HS: I have a problem with must requirements in the detail.
10:15:25 [oedipus]
10:15:28 [Joshue]
JS: Can you help us with the wording?
10:15:47 [Joshue]
HS: Requiring usage rights data is a problem.
10:16:17 [Joshue]
HS: A place for copyright notices is fine, but meta data is a rat hole. RDF issues etc.
10:16:48 [Joshue]
JF: I object to calling RDF crazyness.
10:16:58 [oedipus]
plus 1 to JF
10:17:23 [Joshue]
JS: This may be unintentional, in terms of implementation specifics.
10:17:47 [Joshue]
JS: We are talking about education environments in particular.
10:18:08 [Joshue]
MC: We are saying we need to require this info if available.
10:18:11 [JF]
+1 to (Michael Cooper)
10:18:37 [Joshue]
MC: It may be less problematic than you think.
10:19:43 [Joshue]
HS: If you say you must support meta data, then it brings in RDF etc. I don't have a problem with inventorying everything, I have a prob about the docs presentation - what it says and its presentation are different.
10:19:52 [Joshue]
JS: Lets talk about what it says.
10:19:56 [oedipus]
10:20:15 [Joshue]
JS: TOPIC: Metadata
10:20:26 [Joshue]
JS: Overview on what metadata is..
10:21:51 [Joshue]
General discussion on metadata, captioning, multiple content versions, resource retrieval, implementations, suitable mechanisms etc
10:22:32 [oedipus]
s/JS: TOPIC: Metadata/TOPIC: Metadata/
10:22:35 [Joshue]
AO: When watching TV, I can get my preferences for audio description etc. I would like this functionality in HTML 5.
10:22:39 [MichaelC]
ack s
10:22:39 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
10:22:44 [Zakim]
silvia was not muted, silvia
10:23:09 [Joshue]
SP: Two questions, 1) Copyright 2) RDFa were mentioned.
10:23:23 [hsivonen]
(I mention RDF--not RDFa today)
10:23:30 [hsivonen]
10:23:47 [oedipus]
s/I mention RDF/I mentioned RDF/
10:24:10 [Joshue]
SP: Is there a fundamental problem, where a piece of content needs to be tracked and rights associated?
10:24:24 [Joshue]
SP: What is the problem?
10:24:53 [Joshue]
HS: The data needed for a resource, a generic data mechanism is a rat hole. We should commit to it.
10:25:14 [Joshue]
SS: It seems to me that the term meta data does not specify how it relates to a11y.
10:25:28 [JF]
can't pretend that metadata doesn't exist because some people think it is a rat hole
10:25:30 [hsivonen]
should *NOT* commit to a generic metadata mechanism
10:25:36 [Joshue]
s/ We should commit to it/ We should not commit to it.
10:26:03 [oedipus]
plus 1 to JF - not looking for rat holes, nor courting bubonic plague
10:26:20 [Joshue]
JS: We are looking for a mechanism to support a11y. How can we fix this?
10:27:13 [Joshue]
HS: By enumerating the data that is required for choosing the resource.
10:27:33 [Joshue]
HS: More detailed overview..
10:27:43 [JF]
dublin core metadata?
10:27:51 [Joshue]
JS: Any problems with this SP, JF?
10:27:59 [Joshue]
SP: By making it a finite list?
10:28:52 [Joshue]
SP: I don't understand, are we too detailed? What elements and datafields etc this needs to be analysed.
10:29:02 [Joshue]
SP: Would it be helpful to start on this?
10:30:04 [stefan]
scribe: Stefan
10:30:08 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
10:30:08 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
10:30:24 [stefan]
MC: we need that list but with priorities
10:30:37 [stefan]
JS: we need to iterate that list, too
10:31:46 [stefan]
HS: we need concerns, what is needed to adopt requirements? That's th question.
10:32:36 [stefan]
FO: what is exact req. to provide e.g. copyright info? What is the User Agent Requirement?
10:32:42 [hsivonen]
The question is what happens if the "adopt" the requirements and some of them aren't met?
10:32:58 [hsivonen]
*if the WG adopts
10:33:03 [silvia]
10:33:51 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
10:33:51 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
10:33:51 [oedipus]
s/if the "adopt"/if the WG adopts/
10:34:08 [stefan]
JS: that depends, in an authoring tool eg. it can be maintained
10:34:23 [MichaelC]
10:34:48 [MichaelC]
q+ to talk about contingency engineering; not meeting requirements
10:34:59 [Leonie_Watson]
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10:36:03 [oedipus]
regrets+ Kenny_Johar
10:36:12 [stefan]
AO (explains about regulations in different countries for suppying metadata info)
10:37:07 [oedipus]
ack si
10:37:24 [stefan]
Silvia: explains metadata situation with img example
10:37:35 [janina]
10:38:39 [hsivonen]
10:39:38 [stefan]
(discussion continues)
10:39:39 [MichaelC]
ack me
10:39:39 [Zakim]
MichaelC, you wanted to talk about contingency engineering; not meeting requirements
10:39:47 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
10:39:47 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
10:39:54 [stefan]
MC: we needs to get to some process
10:41:02 [stefan]
MC: (explains engeneer view vs. spec. view is root cause of issue debating)
10:41:16 [Joshue]
10:41:27 [JF]
10:41:50 [oedipus]
ack hs
10:42:41 [foolip]
q+ to talk about what "adopting" the document
10:42:59 [stefan]
HS: what to do with metadata? HOW to show it? How to expose to User Agent?
10:43:26 [oedipus]
ack jo
10:44:13 [stefan]
Joshue: having metadata as part of data source is vital
10:45:16 [JF]
+1 to silvia
10:46:01 [stefan]
JS: (reports on inportance of exposing metadata for corporight reasons)
10:46:05 [oedipus]
plus 1 to silvia who said "a JS API to metadata in a11y resources just like a JS API to metadata in video/audio resources would actually be really nice"
10:46:17 [hsivonen]
silvia, is "would be nice" something you'd stall HTML5 for?
10:46:23 [janina]
10:46:33 [oedipus]
ack JF
10:46:48 [stefan]
JF: is metadata not supposed to be machine-readable?
10:47:05 [oedipus]
extractable metadata can only be extracted if it exists
10:47:25 [silvia]
hsivonen, probably not on HTML5, but definitely on the baseline caption format
10:48:33 [stefan]
HS: microdata in captions in qtext: what you have done? yo've required the metadada to be coded in markup - this will require lotta time to stall HTML5 for that
10:48:51 [foolip]
hsivonen is saying "cue text", not qtext
10:49:00 [oedipus]
ack fool
10:49:01 [Zakim]
foolip, you wanted to talk about what "adopting" the document
10:49:15 [foolip]
zakim, unmute me
10:49:15 [Zakim]
foolip was not muted, foolip
10:49:58 [MichaelC]
q+ to say we want to stall HTML if necessary to get requirements met, but don't want to do so unreasonably with excessive or open-ended requirements
10:50:09 [oedipus]
s/captions in qtext/captions in cue text/
10:50:45 [stefan]
JS: we can debate what should be machine-readable and what's not
10:51:31 [silvia]
I agree with foolip on that we need to define what to do with the document
10:51:54 [MichaelC]
q+ to differentiate spec from implementations
10:51:58 [stefan]
PH: we need to be more specific in the document
10:52:00 [foolip]
zakim, unmute me
10:52:00 [Zakim]
foolip was not muted, foolip
10:52:05 [foolip]
zakim, mute me
10:52:05 [Zakim]
foolip should now be muted
10:52:08 [MichaelC]
ack me
10:52:08 [Zakim]
MichaelC, you wanted to say we want to stall HTML if necessary to get requirements met, but don't want to do so unreasonably with excessive or open-ended requirements and to
10:52:12 [Zakim]
... differentiate spec from implementations
10:52:19 [janina]
10:53:25 [silvia]
I think the question of what of these requirements should stall HTML5 from going to LC is a different question to what are the user requirements - the document only answers the latter one
10:53:32 [stefan]
MC: we gotta be reasonable about spec: we don't want open ended requirements, concerned about req. for HTML5 language
10:53:55 [Leonie_Watson]
+1 to Michael on stall spec if nesc, but only where reasonable.
10:54:00 [foolip]
Requirements in HTML5 *are* requirements on implementations.
10:54:10 [JF]
+1 to MC
10:54:12 [stefan]
MC: we should make req. that can be addressed in HTML5
10:54:19 [oedipus]
plus 1 to MC on stall spec if necessary
10:56:07 [JF]
+1 to High Level concept. this is where we are today
10:56:32 [stefan]
FO: (talks about req. fileformat, content etc.) this is high level, more specifics are described in document, now to sit down on implementers site and discuss how this can be done
10:57:23 [stefan]
FO: this is all not rocket science, it is much easier to implement, but we need common understanding
10:58:15 [stefan]
HS: is it okay stalling the spec because one requirement is not met? What can we do?
10:59:26 [stefan]
FO: we're takling about abstract concepts .. we're chasing with that what we try to do here
11:01:31 [JF]
11:02:06 [stefan]
FO: which format to specify? which one is baseline? these ar the questions to answer
11:02:22 [stefan]
HS: req have predestination about this
11:03:03 [stefan]
JS: how to resolve without going item by item
11:03:43 [stefan]
FO: we should discuss req. based on CONCRETE proposals
11:07:23 [stefan]
FO: next steps: gonna creating the "Implementers Guide"
11:07:40 [oedipus]
zakim, allow this item 3 minutes
11:07:40 [Zakim]
I do not know what agendum has been taken up, oedipus
11:08:00 [stefan]
FO: with list of items inside ...
11:08:11 [oedipus]
11:08:19 [JF]
ack JF
11:08:19 [stefan]
11:09:18 [oedipus]
JF aasking about time of thursday meeting
11:09:19 [JF]
will there be anoher call on thurs?
11:09:24 [Zakim]
11:09:37 [Zakim]
11:11:54 [Zakim]
11:12:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
11:12:25 [Zakim]
11:12:46 [Zakim]
11:12:47 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(WAIPF)3:00AM has ended
11:12:49 [Zakim]
Attendees were Janina_Sajka, Stefan_Schnabel, Michael_Cooper, Léonie_Watson, Joshue_O'Connor, Artur_Ortega, Frank_Olivier, Gregory_Rosmaita, Doug_Schepers, Art_Barstow,
11:12:53 [Zakim]
... Henri_Sivonen, John_Foliot, foolip, silvia
11:36:09 [Laura]
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11:51:55 [oedipus]
laura, minutes from today's HTML5 discussion at
11:54:39 [Laura]
oedipus: Thanks Gregory, I get a "Sorry, Not Found." message for that URI.
11:55:22 [oedipus]
Laura: let me check the settings -- FF is TERRIBLY slow with speech these days causing lots of freezes and crashes
11:56:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
11:57:10 [oedipus]
laura, try again now
11:57:26 [oedipus]
chair: Janina_Sajka
11:57:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
11:58:10 [oedipus]
i/JS: The subteam has created a doc called user requ/scribenick: Joshue/
11:58:11 [Laura]
oedipus: It works now. Thanks.
11:58:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
11:58:42 [oedipus]
s/silvia, passcode is 92743# (WAIPF#)/ /
11:58:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
11:59:26 [oedipus]
s/oedipus: Thanks Gregory, I get a "Sorry, Not Found." message for that URI/ /
11:59:37 [oedipus]
s/Laura: let me check the settings -- FF is TERRIBLY slow with speech these days causing lots of freezes and crashes/ /
11:59:48 [oedipus]
s/laura, try again now/ /
12:00:00 [oedipus]
s/oedipus: It works now. Thanks./ /
12:00:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
12:02:07 [oedipus]
there will most probably be another meeting with HTML WG on thursday, time to be announced -- check the public-html-a11y list for updates
12:02:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
12:36:13 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(WAIPF)3:00AM has been moved to #pf by trackbot
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