07:50:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
07:50:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-forms-irc
07:50:56 <Steven> rrsagent, make logs public
08:04:06 <unl> unl has joined #forms
08:04:33 <unl> zakim, code?
08:04:33 <Zakim> sorry, unl, I don't know what conference this is
08:05:04 <Steven> Hi!
08:05:13 <unl> Godd morning!
08:05:16 <Steven> Just working out which room this is for Zakim to phone it
08:05:22 <unl> s/Godd/Good/
08:05:30 <unl> ok
08:06:08 <Steven> zakim, room for 6 for 240 minutes?
08:06:12 <Zakim> ok, Steven; conference Team_(forms)08:06Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 240 minutes until 1206Z
08:06:44 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Forms FtF@TPAC; code is CONF1 (26631)
08:08:40 <Zakim> Team_(forms)08:06Z has now started
08:08:47 <Zakim> +unl
08:10:08 <klotz> klotz has joined #forms
08:11:01 <Zakim> +Leigh_Klotz
08:11:21 <Steven> hi Leigh
08:11:29 <Steven> Trying to work out how to dial out here
08:12:19 <Steven> zakim, dial roserai2
08:12:19 <Zakim> I am sorry, Steven; I do not know a number for roserai2
08:12:32 <Steven> zakim, dial roseraie2
08:12:32 <Zakim> I am sorry, Steven; I do not know a number for roseraie2
08:14:01 <Steven> zakim, dial roseraie_2
08:14:01 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
08:14:02 <Zakim> +Roseraie_2
08:17:16 <nick> zakim, who is on the phone?
08:17:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see unl, Leigh_Klotz, Roseraie_2
08:18:10 <Steven> Present: Steven, Nick, Leigh, Unl
08:18:27 <Steven> Observing: Jaehyuk Choi (LG Electronics)
08:19:40 <Steven> New W3C member
08:19:53 <Steven> Products using web tech
08:20:03 <Steven> Not yet decided which groups to join
08:20:13 <Steven> Observing today
08:21:21 <nick> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Category:XForms12
08:26:04 <Steven> http://irc.w3.org/
08:26:18 <Jaehyuk> Jaehyuk has joined #forms
08:26:28 <Steven> Lovely weather here
08:26:33 <nick> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Category:XForms12
08:27:36 <Steven> Alain said he will be here around 10.30
08:27:50 <Steven> Nick wants us t do XPath 2.0 tomorrow
08:28:29 <Steven> Nick: We have finalised the UI for a new product, and we have custom components, but I owuld like to have Eric on the ca... I have more time for the WG from now on
08:28:48 <Steven> s/ca.../call./
08:29:43 <Steven> Nick: Some 1.2 features are almost ready
08:29:47 <Steven> ... Dialog
08:29:54 <Steven> ... custom xpath functions
08:29:58 <nick> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Dialog
08:30:06 <nick> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Custom_XPath_functions
08:31:42 <Steven> Topic: Producing the spec
08:31:43 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_1.1_in_Wiki
08:33:52 <klotz> Mediawiki says [[#See also]]
08:33:55 <klotz> steven
08:34:46 <klotz> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Links
08:35:01 <nick> <a name="Abstract" id="Abstract"></a>
08:35:35 <nick> <a name="1.2_Reading_the_Specification" id="1.2_Reading_the_Specification"></a>
08:36:04 <nick> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_1.1_in_Wiki#1.2_Reading_the_Specification
08:36:41 <nick> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_1.1_in_Wiki#3.2.1_Common_Attributes
08:36:47 <Steven> <a name="1.3_How_the_Specification_is_Organized" id="1.3_How_the_Specification_is_Organized"></a>
08:43:11 <nick> E.g: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Editing_pages
08:44:02 <klotz> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Category:Navigation_extensions
08:44:09 <klotz> some of them show promise.  
08:44:22 <klotz> also http://clc-wiki.net/wiki/Planning:Treeview_skin
08:44:38 <klotz> "The skin adds the concept of "pseudo-namespaces" - termed "contexts" or "sub-contexts" - in wiki article titles using colons as separators, and creates a hierarchy out of them. It then displays that hierarchy as a treeview that replaces Monobook's native sidebar navigation pane."
08:50:03 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/PR-owl2-profiles-20090922/
09:03:13 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/2010/revdoc/readme.txt
09:08:41 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/2010/revdoc/
09:08:45 <Steven> Should be readable now
09:09:38 <Steven> That is the code that translates wiki format to (X)HTML
09:11:10 <MoZ> MoZ has joined #forms
09:20:15 <Steven> Present+MoZ
09:24:14 <Steven> The tasks to be done: un-number the Wiki XForms spec (or edit the transform script)
09:24:27 <Steven> get the transfor wiki-xhtml working
09:24:38 <Steven> s/for/form/
09:25:30 <Steven> 3) modularise the XForms 1.1 to get a proto XForms 1.2
09:29:48 <Zakim> -unl
09:29:53 <Zakim> -Leigh_Klotz
09:29:58 <Steven> back in 20
09:30:06 <Steven> Topic: Coffee
09:31:24 <klotz> inputmode appendex starts with =<inputmode>
09:31:36 <klotz> i mean starts with =<code>inputmode
09:49:44 <unl> unl has joined #forms
09:54:16 <Zakim> +unl
09:56:16 <Zakim> +Leigh_Klotz
09:56:25 <nick> nick has joined #forms
09:59:40 <Steven> Steven has joined #forms
09:59:50 <klotz> i posted the update but internal links don't work.
09:59:54 <Steven> http://html5demos.com/geo
10:00:42 <Steven> zakim, who is onthe phone?
10:00:42 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, Steven.
10:00:50 <Steven> zakim, who is on the phone?
10:00:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roseraie_2, unl, Leigh_Klotz
10:03:16 <Steven> Present+Alain
10:04:43 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_1.1_in_Wiki
10:05:15 <alain> alain has joined #forms
10:06:15 <Steven> We can do in page links, but we get the "#" in the text
10:06:35 <Steven> but that is not a particular problem, since we can get rid of them in the transform from wiki to html
10:08:54 <Steven> Nick is installing Python now in order to try and run the transform code
10:22:28 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Round_8
10:24:45 <Peter> Peter has joined #forms
10:29:30 <klotz> definition links (i.e., #form_control ) don't work.  the table has no anchors.
10:30:09 <klotz> the same for external references.
10:32:24 <Steven> Topic: JSON
10:34:56 <Steven> http://www.agencexml.com/jsoncallback/wikipediasearch.xml
10:35:30 <Steven> nodeset="instance('iresults')/item[2]/item">
10:37:01 <Steven> Convert every JSON object to XML
10:38:03 <Steven> Example of the JSON you get http://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=opensearch&format=json&search=saturn
10:40:42 <nick> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Mar/att-0037/2010-03-26.html
10:42:59 <Steven> The ideal solution would make the difference between JSON and XML opaque
10:47:03 <Steven> For arrays, Alains uses extra <item> elements
10:47:18 <Steven> Nick: Picoforms just repeats the element
10:48:00 <Steven> Alain: The problem is distinguishing empty arrays, one-element arrays in the general case
10:49:42 <Steven> Steven: Serialization/round tripping means that we have to have a one-to-one mapping\
10:50:41 <Steven> Nick: In XML you would write a/f[1], but for the JSON version we would have to write a/f/item[1]
10:50:55 <Steven> Alain: That's why I want to extend the XPath engine
10:51:54 <Steven> Alain: Using the 'item' method, it was quick and easy, and no changes to Xpath
10:52:00 <Peter> Steven: thanks
10:52:06 <Steven> Nick: Downside is that the authoring is different
10:52:16 <Steven> ... ought to be easier
10:54:49 <Steven> Steven: If the serialization is the problem, couldn't we do:
10:55:07 <Steven> <a><f json-array="yes">...
10:56:23 <Steven> for the a/f[1] ase
10:57:36 <klotz> there are conflicts in refs in the structures "mediatype" for example.
11:00:54 <Steven> Now addressing the problem of different characters in json names, not allowed in XML, such as $foo
11:01:09 <Steven> Alain: Maybe encode them in a standard way, base 64 or something
11:01:58 <Steven> Alain: With shortcut such as a/json_el('$foo')
11:02:24 <Steven> ... which would need XPath 2.0
11:02:54 <Steven> Nick: That would be a nice shortcut for authoring
11:04:59 <Peter> Nothing specific, I'm mostly being curious. Learning about subjects I'm currently not familiar with always is a good thing, and I figured reading the discussions at TPAC would give me insight in where XForms will be going
11:06:48 <Steven> Steven: We could use a/*[json-name="$foo"
11:07:09 <Steven> with an instance that looks like <a><foo json-name="$foo"
11:07:26 <Steven> which works, requires no new function, works with XPath 1.0, and covers the corner cases
11:08:11 <Steven> Nick: Also works with $foo and *foo in the same document
11:08:22 <klotz> why not use mips?  they're 100% not going to have a name conflict
11:08:30 <Steven> Alain: Performance might be affected
11:08:48 <Steven> SteveL But it is an edge case that won't arise often in parictise surely
11:09:36 <Steven> explain Leigh?
11:09:46 <Steven> s/SteveL/Steven/
11:11:17 <Steven> Leigh: unnamed arrays?
11:11:50 <nick> <a><_foo json-name='$foo'></_foo><_foo json-name='$foo' json-array='true'></_foo>
11:12:07 <nick> <a><_foo json-name='$foo'></_foo><_foo json-name='*foo' json-array='true'></_foo>
11:12:16 <Steven> Nick: We identify three attributes - is it na array, is it anonymous, what is the json name
11:12:21 <Steven> s/na/an/
11:14:53 <Steven> Leigh: The parser can record its own MIPS as it reads
11:15:15 <Steven> Nick: Only problem is with selecting within XPath if those MIPS are hidden
11:16:28 <Steven> Leigh: The advantage of the MIP over the attribute version is name clashes
11:16:51 <Steven> Steven: But there are no attribute name clashes with a JSON instance, since there are no attributes in JSON
11:17:32 <Steven> Steven: Certainly the MIP is good for the array problem
11:17:51 <Steven> ... leaving the only problem with the odd characters in JSON names
11:18:39 <klotz> path/to/jsonname('foo bar')/el[3]
11:19:11 <klotz> path/to/*[jsonname('foo bar')]/el[3]
11:20:32 <Steven> Nick: You could write:
11:20:47 <Steven> .... <a><f1>...<f2>...
11:21:10 <Steven> ... <bin nodeset="f1" json-name="$foo"
11:21:17 <Steven> s/bin/bind/
11:21:55 <Steven> ... json-array="true()"
11:22:03 <klotz> i wasn't following the problem statement so I thought attribute name conflicts would be a problem; it's not clear to me that attributes + functions isn't a good enough solution.
11:22:48 <Steven> Nick: And for the anon case use json-name=""
11:23:24 <Steven> Nick: You only have to do this if you are creating the instance yourself
11:23:51 <Steven> ... for the case of arrays with more than one element, the problem is not there
11:25:03 <Steven> Steven: Where do we say what sort of serialization we have?
11:25:45 <Steven> Steven: And I would like to generalise to other formats, eg http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5546
11:26:18 <Steven> ... generalise="make sure it works in more cases than just JSON"
11:26:44 <Steven> Alain: So we could use @fullname instead of @json-name
11:27:35 <klotz> http://www.yaml.org/
11:29:05 <klotz> http://jsync.org/ - JSON+YAML
11:29:41 <Steven> Steven: So you have the problenm of where you create the instance, of specifying the serialization used. Which means a new sattribute on <submission>
11:30:38 <klotz> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JSON#Windows_Registry_language_and_.ini_files
11:31:32 <klotz> or submission/@serializer
11:31:33 <Steven> Nick: In cases you may want to override the mometype, if it is wrong
11:32:39 <klotz> you need to specify the serializer in addition to the mediatype, if there are different ways to serialize the same mediatype.
11:32:39 <Steven> .... and you need it for serialization and for parsing
11:33:11 <nick> s/mometype/mimetype/
11:34:28 <Steven> Leigh: Do we need more than one JSON serialiser?
11:34:36 <Steven> Steven: I believe we have covered all cases now
11:35:08 <Steven> Leigh: The question is whether mime type is enough to identify the serialiser
11:36:13 <Steven> Steven: The mime type should be enough; let us assume that for now until we find a counterexample
11:36:45 <Steven> Nick: For VCARD support we don't need any extra attributes
11:40:07 <Steven> Nick: Maybe extra formats should be separate specs
11:40:24 <Steven> ... if they don't affect the definition of XFORMS
11:40:30 <Steven> ... THEY WOULD BE LIGHT-WEIGHT
11:40:57 <Steven> S/01THEY WOULD BE LIGHT-WEIGHT/they would be leight-weight/
11:41:08 <Steven> Steven: ANd we don't have to reissue XForms to allow for more formats
11:41:34 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #forms
11:41:35 <Steven> Alain: And how about allowing JSON notation in the xforms instance
11:42:50 <Steven> Nick writes:
11:43:03 <Steven> <div id="mydef"
11:43:16 <Steven> a={ .... }
11:43:20 <Steven> </div>
11:43:51 <Steven> <instance src="#mydef" mediatype="text/json">
11:43:55 <Steven> (or whatever)
11:44:09 <Steven> Alain: or allow directly in instance element
11:44:12 <John_Boyer> zakim, code?
11:44:12 <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), John_Boyer
11:44:28 <Steven> Present+John_Boyer
11:45:14 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
11:45:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-forms-minutes.html Steven
11:46:12 <Steven> Meeting: Forms WG FtF, TPAC LYon, France, Day 1
11:46:16 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
11:46:21 <Steven> Chair: Steven 'n'Leigh
11:46:33 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
11:46:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-forms-minutes.html Steven
11:46:57 <Steven> s/LY/Ly/
11:47:34 <klotz> q+ wiki
11:47:41 <klotz> q-wiki
11:47:42 <klotz> q+
11:48:29 <Steven> ack l
11:53:11 <klotz> q-
11:56:30 <Steven> Nick: Who owns this?
11:56:47 <Steven> Steven: I had said I'd take it over, but I don't mind if someone else would rather own it
11:57:48 <Steven> We will try to retunr in one hour for a 3 hour session
11:57:54 <Zakim> -Leigh_Klotz
11:58:13 <Zakim> -Roseraie_2
11:58:15 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
11:58:33 <Zakim> -unl
11:58:35 <Zakim> Team_(forms)08:06Z has ended
11:58:37 <Zakim> Attendees were unl, Leigh_Klotz, Roseraie_2, John_Boyer
11:58:46 <Steven> zakim, room for 6 at 13z for 240 minutes?
11:58:46 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, Steven.
11:58:56 <Steven> zakim, room for 6 at 1300z for 240 minutes?
11:58:59 <Zakim> ok, Steven; conference Team_(forms)13:00Z scheduled with code 26633 (CONF3) at 13:00z for 240 minutes until 1700Z
11:59:30 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Forms FtF@TPAC, code is CONF3 (26633)
12:15:16 <unl> unl has joined #forms
12:58:54 <nick> nick has joined #forms
12:59:49 <Steven> Steven has joined #forms
13:00:11 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #forms
13:00:51 <Steven> zakim, dial rosaraie_2
13:00:51 <Zakim> I am sorry, Steven; I do not know a number for rosaraie_2
13:00:59 <Steven> zakim, dial roseraie_2
13:00:59 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:01:00 <Zakim> Team_(forms)13:00Z has now started
13:01:01 <Zakim> +Roseraie_2
13:01:15 <Jaehyuk> Jaehyuk has joined #forms
13:02:20 <alain> alain has joined #forms
13:02:39 <unl> unl has joined #forms
13:03:49 <John_Boyer> zakim, code?
13:03:50 <Zakim> the conference code is 26633 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), John_Boyer
13:04:01 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
13:05:38 <Steven> s/THEY WOULD BE LIGHT-WEIGHT/they would be leight-weight/
13:05:38 <Zakim> +unl
13:06:04 <Steven> scribe: Steven
13:07:40 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Category:XForms12
13:08:25 <Steven> Topic: Transform
13:08:26 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Transform
13:08:46 <Steven> Alain: I'm using the function approach successfully
13:09:15 <Steven> Nick: I prefer the function approach
13:09:23 <Steven> Alain: It is implemented in XSLTForms
13:09:49 <Steven> ... we sorted out the problems for the dependencies
13:09:57 <Steven> John: How does that work?
13:10:11 <Steven> Alain: When a node changes, we consider all its ancestors changed
13:10:47 <Steven> ... not that slow
13:10:55 <Steven> ... even with heavy transforms
13:11:03 <Steven> John: What is the function signature
13:11:11 <Steven> s/signature/signature?/
13:11:39 <Steven> Nick: The function won't reevaluate if descendents change
13:11:48 <Steven> s/ent/ant/
13:12:22 <Steven> Alain: It is the same for all functions
13:12:36 <Steven> Nick: Will also work for the ID function
13:12:58 <Steven> ... if you change a node, you walk up the ancestors and mark those
13:13:13 <John_Boyer> transform('my-stylesheet.xsl', instance())
13:14:56 <Steven> \steven: Same as we did on our Views system in the 80's
13:15:30 <Steven> Nick: In your instance() example John, when anything in the instance changes, it will restart the transform
13:16:13 <Steven> John: How about forms with elements and attributes
13:16:18 <Steven> s/tes/tes?/
13:16:32 <John_Boyer> <price currency="blah">10</price>
13:17:37 <Steven> John: Changing @currency means that price is marked?
13:17:39 <Steven> Nick: Yes
13:17:51 <Steven> John: I'm just watching for circular dependencies
13:18:24 <Steven> Nick: There will be no value-changed event sent if the value doesn't change
13:19:08 <John_Boyer> <element a="2" greater="" b="1"></element>
13:19:21 <John_Boyer> <xforms:bind calculate="if(@greater = 'a', @a, @b)" readonly="false()" nodeset="element"></xforms:bind>
13:19:31 <John_Boyer> <xforms:bind calculate="if(../@b &gt; ../@a, 'b', 'a')" readonly="false()" nodeset="element/@greater"></xforms:bind>
13:22:30 <Steven> John: We might have to change how 1.1 describes dependencies
13:25:05 <Steven> Nick: we aren't adding extra dependencies
13:25:12 <Steven> ... just simulating extra value changes
13:31:07 <John_Boyer> id('X')
13:31:26 <nick> id('X Y', instance('Z')) 
13:31:30 <John_Boyer> <e id="X">a</e>
13:32:07 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#fn-id
13:33:31 <Steven> [Examples hows it works for 2 param version if id() as well]
13:33:42 <Steven> s/s how/ show
13:34:15 <Steven> Steven: Do we resolve to go wih the fucntional version?
13:34:22 <Steven> of transform
13:34:41 <Steven> John: What is the returned value?
13:34:46 <Steven> Alain: Now it is a string
13:35:40 <John_Boyer> transform gens a string, which one could choose to parse with http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Parse_Serialize_functions
13:37:21 <John_Boyer> use with output seems to need the string version of transform
13:38:20 <Steven> Nick: The best result would be a sequence, for XPath 2.0
13:38:42 <John_Boyer> <output ref="transform(blah, blah)" mediatype="text/html"> ...  
13:38:47 <John_Boyer> What should this do?
13:39:13 <Steven> Nick: The transform function says what the output is, text or XML
13:39:25 <Steven> ... so Ideal is to keep that possibility
13:39:39 <Steven> ... otherwise you have to do the parse again
13:39:59 <Steven> ... but an XPath 1.0 would always return the string
13:40:27 <John_Boyer> XPath 1.0 could retjurn an "object"
13:40:34 <John_Boyer> which could be a string or nodeset
13:41:07 <John_Boyer> (or number or boolean, but the main idea is that xpath 1.0 could also support an ambiguous return type)
13:41:31 <Steven> Alain: with submission you want the result to be serialised
13:41:49 <Steven> ... transforming the serialisation, and then reserialising it is silly
13:42:01 <Steven> ... I would to have to find a trick to avoid this
13:43:07 <Steven> Steven: Can we decide to go with the functional version?
13:43:19 <Steven> Nick: John had the problems with htat approach
13:43:42 <Steven> John: We've dealt with the update problems. What about in a UI binding?
13:45:59 <Steven> Nick: We could disallow it there
13:46:26 <Steven> John: We might be able to find a solution to the UI bindings
13:46:53 <John_Boyer> Maybe there are no problems with <output ref="transform(...)" ...
13:47:41 <John_Boyer> <output value="transform()" mediatype="text/html"...
13:48:26 <Steven> Nick: We could regard a UI binding as creating new nodes
13:48:38 <John_Boyer> <repeat nodeset="transform(...)/blah"> 
13:48:54 <John_Boyer> <input ref="foo/bar"
13:49:31 <Steven> John: You would lose everything s the transform gets reevaluated
13:49:42 <Steven> s/ s / if/
13:49:58 <Steven> s/if/if /
13:50:02 <John_Boyer> maybe it's just "don't do *that*"?
13:50:17 <Steven> Nick: You would lost the repeat-index
13:50:21 <Steven> .... as well
13:50:28 <Steven> s/lost/lose/
13:51:16 <Steven> John: Using repeat to iterate over a transform would be a bad idea. Better to save the transform in an instance and use that
13:52:19 <John_Boyer> repeat containing outputs would be neat, though, just to *show* a table of data
13:52:51 <John_Boyer> though, repeat is itself a mini-transform
13:53:17 <Steven> Alain: Disable delete buttons
13:53:41 <Steven> Nick: But the result of a transform would be readonly so the delete buttonjs would be styled as readonly
13:54:28 <Steven> Nick: Does readonly work the same as relevance?
13:54:47 <Steven> \john\; yes
13:55:09 <Steven> s/relevance?/ how it works on group/
13:55:31 <Steven> s/\\;/:/
13:55:35 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
13:55:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-forms-minutes.html Steven
13:56:07 <Steven> s/\;/:/
13:56:10 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
13:56:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-forms-minutes.html Steven
13:56:38 <John_Boyer> <bind nodeset="transform(...)" readonly="false()"/>
13:56:40 <Steven> s/\john\;/John: /
13:56:42 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
13:56:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-forms-minutes.html Steven
13:57:20 <Steven> Nick: You'd be Bad if you did that
13:59:04 <John_Boyer> What about <input ref="tranform(...)/x/y/z"?
14:00:10 <John_Boyer> seems it is insufficient to restrict tranform() from being used in nodeset bindings only; seems better to just say result nodes are readonly
14:00:20 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Nodeset
14:01:42 <Steven> John: Making them readonly sounds the best
14:02:07 <Steven> ... does that also work for all other node creation functions we've been talking about?
14:02:12 <Steven> Nick: Sounds right
14:02:23 <Steven> John: parse() and create() are the only other two
14:02:44 <Steven> ... what are the usecases for parse()
14:02:53 <Steven> Nick: functions that return strings
14:03:04 <Steven> s/()/()?/
14:03:16 <Steven> John: Oh yes, to use as the @origin of insert
14:03:31 <Steven> ... so that works
14:03:42 <Steven> John: and the create() function
14:03:49 <Steven> Nick: Also for insert
14:04:10 <Steven> John: OK, also for @origin. Cool
14:04:42 <Steven> ... so we can conclude that node creation functions should mark the result as readonly
14:05:17 <Steven> ... and when a node changes we need to mark the ancestors as changed as well
14:05:30 <Steven> Steven: I prefer 'dirty' to changed
14:05:34 <Steven> John: R|ight
14:05:41 <Steven> s/|//
14:06:05 <Steven> Steven: Changed implies value-changed to me
14:06:09 <Steven> John: Looks good
14:06:31 <Steven> Topic: Coffee
14:07:27 <Steven> RESOLVED: Use the function version of transform
14:08:01 <Zakim> -unl
14:18:07 <John_Boyer> yes
14:30:20 <Steven> Nick: We may need to add to the spec that functions with an optional last parameter, when the last param is missed, you use the current context, which becomes an implicit dependency
14:30:30 <Steven> Alain: Implementation issue
14:30:37 <Steven> Nick: Make it explicit at least
14:31:16 <John_Boyer> In http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#expr-dependencies, we say that a reference happens when a node is selected by matching a node test or when returned by a function call.  Looks like not just an implementation issue
14:31:33 <Steven> Alain: To go back to transform(), I was considering inline stylesheets for small transformations
14:31:40 <nick> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Transform
14:33:11 <Steven> Alain: depending on the first paramater - a string a URI, a node a stylesheet
14:34:15 <nick> #my-stylesheet
14:35:02 <nick> transform('#my-stylesheet', instance())
14:35:38 <Steven> Nick: That is in the base document
14:35:54 <Steven> John: Instance data is in a separate document
14:37:01 <John_Boyer> <html> ... <xf:instance> ... <e id="my-stylesheet">something that changes</e> 
14:37:38 <Steven> Nick: That would give the original instance
14:37:49 <John_Boyer> from the source document, not from the live instance data
14:38:22 <Steven> <style id="my-style" type="application/xml+xsl">....
14:38:32 <Steven> would be a more general use
14:38:50 <Steven> s/xml+xsl/xslt+xml/
14:41:16 <Steven> Nick: Thebn you wouldn't need the nodeset as first param. A string would be enough
14:41:23 <Steven> s/ebn/en/
14:42:13 <Steven> Topic: Custom controls
14:43:29 <Steven> Nick: We are doing custom controls, so are Orbeon, and Alain, and I would like to align them
14:45:56 <Steven> [demo time]
14:50:22 <nick> <idfc:adf-progress nodeset="instance('job-stages-status')/stage-runtime-info" status="@status">
14:50:22 <nick> 				    		<xf:label ref="@name"/>
14:50:22 <nick> 				    		<idfc:icon><img src="{{if (exists(index-of(('Print' , 'Compose', 'Finish', 'Deliver', 'GeneratePrintFile'), @name))) then concat('../images/', @name, '.png') else '/xbl/inventivedesigners/adf-progress/img/stage.png'}}"/></idfc:icon>
14:50:22 <nick> 				    		<idfc:info>
14:50:23 <nick> 				    			<table>
14:50:24 <nick> 									<tr><td class="label">Start</td><td><xf:output value="format-dateTime(@start-date, '[Y0001]-[M01]-[D01] [H]:[m01]:[s01]')"/></td></tr>
14:50:27 <nick> 									<tr><td class="label">Completion</td><td><xf:output value="format-dateTime(@completion-date, '[Y0001]-[M01]-[D01] [H]:[m01]:[s01]')"/></td></tr>
14:50:30 <nick> 								</table>
14:50:33 <nick> 				    		</idfc:info>
14:50:35 <nick> 				    		<idfc:actions>
14:50:37 <nick> 				    			<!-- Only show the complete actions when you are an operator and the job-profile is OperatorJob -->
14:50:38 <nick> 				    			<xf:trigger ref="self::node()[$is-operator and instance('default-instance')/job/@job-profile = 'OperatorJob' and exists(instance('job-external-stages-waiting')/stage[@stage = context()/@name])]" appearance="minimal">
14:50:41 <nick> 									<xf:label value="$translation/misc/mark-completed"/>
14:50:44 <nick> 									<xf:action ev:event="DOMActivate">
14:50:45 <nick> 										<xf:setvalue ref="instance('release-stage-instance-req')/stage" value="context()/@name"/>
14:50:48 <nick> 										<xf:send submission="release-stage" mode="synchronous"/>
14:50:50 <nick> 										<xf:dispatch name="update-details" target="model"/>
14:50:51 <nick> 									</xf:action>
14:50:54 <nick> 								</xf:trigger>
14:50:55 <nick> 				    		</idfc:actions>
14:50:57 <nick> 				    	</idfc:adf-progress>
14:57:33 <Steven> Nick shows an xbl custom control
14:57:40 <Steven> Alain: I like the xbl approach
15:07:51 <Steven> ... we really need to be able to do rich controls
15:08:01 <Steven> Nick: Orbeon has a lot of extra controls
15:08:10 <Steven> Alain: Interoperability is a problem though
15:09:30 <Steven> Steven: How do we move further on this
15:09:43 <Steven> John: What does XForms need extra to support this
15:09:48 <Steven> Nick: Not much
15:09:54 <Steven> s/this/this?/
15:10:50 <Steven> Steven: So if you have xbl, you don't need additions to XForms.
15:11:31 <Steven> Nick: The current status of xbl is unclear at the moment
15:11:43 <Steven> Steven: Assume for the present that the new edition hasn't happened
15:17:03 <Steven> Nick: In xbl you just copy over the attributes, but sometimes you want to be more specific, and XSLT is handy for that; that's a limitation of XBL
15:17:17 <Steven> John: So nothing needed in core XForms?
15:17:20 <Steven> Nick: Right
15:18:04 <Steven> Nick: Sometimes you would like to have submodels
15:18:18 <Steven> ... Orbein does it by communicating through events
15:18:26 <Steven> s/bein/beon/
15:20:09 <Steven> John: We got components to talk to each other using a wiring concept
15:20:41 <Steven> ... and javascript versions of setvalue insert and delete
15:21:17 <Steven> ... our DOM interface doesn't expose the logical equivalent of setvalue insert and delete
15:23:36 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#expr-instance
15:24:10 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#idl-getInstanceDocument
15:24:45 <Steven> Steven: You mean an interface that interfaces with the constraint system?
15:26:45 <Steven> ... Please send in a change request for such an interface and we can discuss it
15:32:43 <John_Boyer> in a "wire" from component A to component B, the xforms-refresh on the model in component A would activate the wire and push data to component B.  The implementation of the wire would do logical equivalent of setvalue, insert/delete on B, which would then cause the usual [rebuild] recalculate revalidate refresh on B
15:32:59 <John_Boyer> could use a finer grain event than xforms-refresh
15:33:48 <John_Boyer> something that allows wiring of a small subtree of component A to component B, but without fine grain, it was still workable
15:35:37 <John_Boyer> didn't really need submodels, for example
15:38:59 <Steven> Nick: In my example form here, there is a pipeline of 4 stages, and these are all custon controls, actually a repeat over an instance
15:40:34 <Steven> ... so if the instance had 5 stages, the instance would have 5 elements
15:41:00 <Steven> John: So you don't need to use events to communicate, since you're just using the normal constraints
15:45:01 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/ModelEnhancementRequirements
15:47:37 <Steven> Topic: Externally defined models with src attribute
15:47:50 <Steven> John: I thought we had decided to us xinclude for this use case
15:48:03 <Steven> Steven: In that case we should annotate the page with that decision
15:48:23 <Steven> ... I would prefer to leave it in the category XForms12 though, just so we have a record
15:56:44 <Steven> Topic: Coming days
15:57:08 <Steven> Steven: Nick and I will be working on getting the spec production tools working this week
15:57:25 <Steven> ... we plan to work on it first thing each morning, as most people will be joining later
15:58:03 <Steven> [ADJOURN]
15:58:19 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
15:58:26 <Zakim> -Roseraie_2
15:58:27 <Zakim> Team_(forms)13:00Z has ended
15:58:28 <Zakim> Attendees were Roseraie_2, John_Boyer, unl
15:58:36 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:58:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-forms-minutes.html Steven
16:25:56 <Zakim> Zakim has left #forms
16:48:46 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #forms