07:49:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #egov
07:49:49 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-egov-irc
07:50:00 <sandro> RRSAgent, make log public
07:50:07 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
07:50:07 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-egov-irc#T07-50-07
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07:50:28 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
07:50:28 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I don't know what conference this is
07:50:29 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, sandro, karen, MacTed, trackbot
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08:06:58 <sandro> dd: 2005 network of offices
08:07:11 <sandro> dd: PSI directive in EU
08:07:33 <sandro> dd: JoseMa ctic had funding to start this activity
08:07:56 <sandro> dd: document sept 2005, me and rigo
08:08:25 <sandro> dd: 2007 asturias workshop to launch activity/group
08:08:33 <Vagner-br> Vagner-br has joined #egov
08:09:03 <sandro> dd: internet governance forum, PSI directive, a lot of resources
08:09:30 <sandro> dd: workship in Vilnius, 3 weeks ago
08:09:48 <sandro> dd: culture of some countries, to keep info closed.
08:10:50 <karen> karen has joined #egov
08:11:03 <sandro> dd: tried to get bicycle accident info for my town in France
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08:12:03 <sandro> dd: they're sending it on paper
08:12:10 <sandro> dd: !
08:12:40 <sandro> karen: in W3C we're normally pulled; in this case it seems like push -- govts are often very resistant.
08:13:06 <sandro> karen: A few weeks ago, Tim was invited to speek at Harvard, Kennedy School
08:13:24 <sandro> karen: Mostly older professors, steeped in govt history
08:13:39 <sandro> karen: ... but they didn't even know basic things, eg twitter
08:13:55 <sandro> karen: ... some folks had a nice openness to understand
08:14:07 <sandro> karen: ... push that has to get done
08:14:26 <sandro> karen: Where can W3C focus?
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08:17:47 <karen> scribenick: Karen
08:18:50 <karen> Sandro review eGov IG Note published
08:19:07 <karen> Organized in five main topics
08:19:16 <karen> 1. Participation and Cititzen Engagement
08:19:31 <karen> key point to allow public servants to use public Web sites
08:20:17 <karen> http://www.w3.org/TR/egov-improving/
08:20:33 <sandro> these slides: http://www.w3.org/2010/Talks/1101-egov/
08:21:09 <karen> Sandro: this document points out things that planners need to understand
08:21:19 <karen> may be obious to some, but not to those who are new
08:21:33 <karen> Rigo: tax declaration system in France
08:21:58 <karen> ...challenge with massive scaling in gov't sector
08:22:10 <karen> ...can overwhelm your servers
08:22:37 <karen> Roger Cutler: you should talk to the "Dancing with the Stars" show
08:22:45 <karen> ...they had public voting that overwhelmed the system
08:22:55 <karen> ...not sure what they did to overcome it
08:23:02 <karen> Rigo: Cloud computing is so important to eGov
08:23:10 <karen> ...so you can start small and scale quickly
08:23:24 <karen> ...private industry support will be important
08:23:33 <sandro> agenda+ cloud computing, 
08:23:58 <karen> Sandro: traditional mechanisms of getting comments from the public have not scaled in the past
08:24:07 <karen> ...Web makes it easier for public to comment on public policies
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08:24:52 <karen> 2. Participation and Engagement Issues
08:25:37 <karen> Sandro: challenges for what gov't employees can and cannot do; what roles and persona they may take on
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08:25:44 <karen> ...how to use social networking
08:26:04 <karen> ...what are fora for asking authoritative questions
08:26:14 <karen> ...data portability; archiving
08:26:19 <karen> ...lots of big questions
08:26:31 <karen> Second big issues was Open Gov't Data
08:26:53 <karen> ...this section was written 1.5 years ago
08:27:02 <karen> q+
08:28:36 <karen> ...not particularly focused about various technologies
08:28:38 <karen> ack Karen
08:28:53 <karen> Karen: one reason for that was main message was "please use standard technologies in gov't
08:29:30 <karen> and also many different levels of experience regarding use of Semantic Web technologies, XML, HTML, etc.
08:29:44 <karen> Sandro: other issues are limitations of gov't employees to participate
08:29:54 <karen> Third Part was Interoperability
08:30:10 <karen> ...concept of interoperability in time
08:30:15 <karen> ...big thing is using open standards
08:30:53 <karen> Rigo: EU Interoperability Framework uses a definition
08:30:57 <karen> ...that fits W3C pretty well
08:31:03 <karen> ...but other groups did not
08:31:14 <karen> ...took lobbyists a couple years to get that off the agenda
08:31:25 <karen> ...We fit the EIF1 definition of Open Standards
08:31:44 <karen> Sandro: another technique is to use open source to promote interoperability
08:31:51 <karen> Roger: Why? I don't understand it
08:32:00 <karen> Rigo: let me explain that from a larger perspective
08:32:14 <karen> ...EU point of view since I was involved in work here
08:32:36 <karen> ...For example one village acquired some development software
08:32:40 <karen> ...then made it open source
08:32:56 <karen> ...the mayors of various cities would meet and describe same problem
08:33:05 <karen> ...and suggested they use open source solution
08:33:10 <karen> ...this was a strong trend
08:33:25 <karen> ...so they realized they could tailor things more effectively
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08:33:38 <karen> ...so it built the rumor that open source is good with eGov
08:33:48 <karen> Roger: so it has nothing to do with interoperability
08:34:11 <karen> Rigo: correct; there is a large understanding that open source meant to these towns and villages to get things done
08:34:29 <karen> Jim: non-technical people don't understand difference
08:34:34 <karen> ...between open standards and open source
08:34:35 <sandro> agenda+ open source
08:34:45 <karen> ...some of non-technical people include the high-level policy makers
08:35:01 <karen> ...don't know difference between open standards and open source
08:35:07 <karen> ...As Roger pointed out, it's a myth
08:35:16 <karen> ...if you allow customization, it's a virtue
08:35:22 <karen> ...but it pushes against interoperability
08:35:26 <karen> ...it's a complicated question
08:35:36 <karen> ...has to be looked at on a case by case basis
08:35:43 <karen> ...We should make the case about open standards
08:35:58 <karen> Sandro: in this report there is a page and a half on open standards and a little on open source
08:36:11 <karen> Roger: I think W3C should not endorse open source vs. vendor products
08:36:17 <karen> ...there are real problems with open source
08:36:26 <karen> Jim: really not a question about open source
08:36:41 <karen> ...I am responsible for open source and open standards across HP
08:36:54 <karen> ...no gov't could decide only to buy proprietary
08:37:04 <karen> ...it's a development methodology, not an alternative to open standarads
08:37:07 <karen> s/standards
08:37:13 <karen> Rigo: the big fight is about what is open
08:37:24 <karen> ...after EIF shifted their definition
08:37:41 <karen> ...like example of CRM being relabeled identity management
08:37:49 <karen> ...then everything became "open" term
08:38:03 <karen> ..."open" now meaningless because it's the latest cool term
08:38:11 <karen> ...everybody claims to be open
08:38:18 <karen> ...but maybe we should develop criteria for that
08:38:18 <sandro> rigo: Everybody claims to be open now
08:38:33 <karen> Roger: and we have something called "Open Spirit" a proprietary software
08:38:48 <karen> Vagner Diniz: it's not wrong to say we can find more friendly people 
08:39:06 <karen> ...among open standards rather than proprietary community
08:39:11 <karen> ...idea is not to advocate open source
08:39:16 <karen> ...but we should advocate open standards
08:39:32 <karen> ...in terms of awareness we can find more friendly people in the open source community; they are more helpful for us
08:39:43 <karen> Daniel: open source and open standards are not the same, yes
08:39:57 <karen> ...Open source people do like us because we give them open standards which are free
08:40:07 <karen> ...whether or not open source is good in and of itself
08:40:12 <karen> ...as a way to develop software
08:40:16 <karen> ...free software
08:40:23 <karen> ...is a philosophy
08:40:31 <karen> ...sharing programming is hard
08:40:38 <karen> ...some W3C people come from this community
08:41:03 <karen> ...saying it's just a development methodology may offend some
08:41:38 <karen> Gautier Poupeau: different question with exposed data
08:41:47 <karen> ...we can make interoperability with data
08:41:51 <karen> ...and open source data
08:41:55 <karen> ...but that is not the key point
08:42:21 <karen> Roger: I was just commenting on promoting interoperability and open source
08:42:30 <karen> Rigo: It's a how on promoting eGov and open data
08:42:42 <karen> ...open source is often used as a pre-cursor with low investment development
08:42:51 <karen> ...before doing a commercial product
08:43:13 <karen> ...there is this aspect that leads to this kind of assertion, but we have to disambiguate the assertion
08:43:26 <karen> Jim: I think this is a good topic; we are not wasting time
08:43:35 <karen> ...It is true the open source and open standards community overlap
08:43:39 <karen> ...maybe a stepping pointt
08:43:46 <sandro> agenda+ relationship between open standards and open source
08:43:52 <karen> ...is what people really want is royalty free
08:44:06 <karen> ...RAND is the default rather than W3C RF
08:44:14 <karen> ...open source can be misleading
08:44:20 <karen> ...it is under a license 
08:44:26 <karen> ...HP supports 600 licensees
08:44:30 <karen> s/licenses
08:44:39 <karen> ...to really follow all those and administrate them is big
08:44:54 <karen> ...cannot just take your program and hand it to the people in the next village
08:44:59 <karen> ...In terms of Linked Data
08:45:05 <karen> ...there have been contraints
08:45:09 <karen> ...one of major ones is Privacy
08:45:21 <karen> ...EU has stricter rules
08:45:53 <karen> ...Different and sometimes conflicting rules about tracking, destroying storing data
08:46:00 <karen> ...Identity for some is heart of security
08:46:08 <karen> ...different ways to protect identity will show up
08:46:18 <karen> ...many issues will face on open source side
08:46:26 <karen> Roger: Open source is also not risk free
08:46:43 <karen> ...why organizations like mine feel good about use of W3C standards because they are relatively risk fee
08:46:52 <karen> ...they have been rung out and vetted
08:46:58 <karen> ...there are may patent trolls
08:47:33 <karen> [Roger describes example of patent vulnerability in open source]
08:48:01 <karen> ...I think open source is big risk for a company like ours
08:48:20 <karen> ...risk factors from W3C are very different from Open Source
08:48:34 <karen> Harry Halpin: I am working in social and identity space for W3C
08:48:41 <karen> ...we are trying to follow US gov't work
08:48:49 <karen> ...I would be interested in hearing from people
08:48:58 <karen> ...Identity is important to eGov
08:49:06 <karen> ...and it's historically an area of patents
08:49:26 <karen> ...Going back to 1998, P3P 
08:49:33 <karen> ...importance of RF standards
08:49:41 <karen> ...we need to identify areas that are crucial
08:49:47 <karen> ...there are vastly different requirements
08:49:54 <karen> ...and make sure baseline core standards are RF
08:50:00 <karen> ...and can be implemented
08:50:22 <karen> ...a bit of a weakness; so I'm interested to hear what eGov people think of the identity space
08:50:31 <karen> Daniel: what I have been looking at for eGov
08:50:34 <karen> ...is about access
08:50:41 <karen> ...you want what you have paid for back
08:50:49 <karen> ...I don't want my identity in this process
08:50:55 <karen> ...I want to make use of the data I paid for
08:51:04 <karen> ...not interaction with gov't that I paid my tax
08:51:10 <karen> ...but another eGov platform area
08:51:37 <karen> Harry: there is another realm of applications for clinical health records that needs identity assurance
08:51:43 <karen> Roger: there is something here
08:51:56 <karen> ...thinking about the person who asked Daniel for his physical address
08:52:17 <karen> ...perhaps people are unwilling to send something that could be altered electronically
08:52:28 <karen> ...our company still sends me PDFs to sign and send back
08:52:34 <karen> ...because they don't trust it
08:52:41 <karen> ...there is a huge element of not just making technology work
08:52:52 <karen> ..but getting people to understand that it does work and get them to trust
08:53:03 <karen> Rigo: I have been involved in EU since 1995
08:53:13 <karen> ...today you can do ID electronically
08:53:22 <karen> ...but IT guys saw business opportunity
08:53:42 <karen> ...but it doesn't take into account the user
08:53:46 <karen> Jim: coming back to patents
08:53:57 <karen> ...W3C is not immune from patent trolls
08:54:06 <karen> ...trolls can also attack W3C standards
08:54:12 <karen> ...but you want someone to back it up
08:54:23 <karen> ...and Open Source community is not set up to provide that guarantee
08:54:25 <karen> ...on the other side
08:54:36 <karen> ...Open Source benefits from thorough W3C vetting
08:54:52 <karen> ...and many eyes on code are best way to find flaws on code or algorim
08:55:08 <karen> ...so even though Open Source is exposed, it may be more secure due to number of people using it
08:55:21 <karen> Sandro: Last topic in report was interoperability frameworks
08:55:27 <karen> ...I was not sure about this
08:55:34 <karen> Rigo: I can give a short presentation about that
08:55:44 <karen> Sandro: how about two sentences
08:56:00 <karen> Rigo: We have a large discussion about this topic with EU
08:56:10 <karen> ...they developed a framework 
08:56:19 <karen> ...EU is not like US Federal gov't
08:56:42 <karen> ...from inside EU , it's still 27 countries cooperating
08:56:53 <karen> ...focus on how those gov'ts send messages to each other
08:57:22 <karen> ...it is a big area needing procedures
08:57:27 <karen> ...needed to understand data
08:57:35 <karen> ...They started to exchange XML Schema
08:57:43 <karen> ...each gov't had its own schema store
08:58:01 <karen> ...Questions about which models to use, how to find them
08:58:18 <karen> ...For example, we may give local, regional or nat'l gov'ts information
08:58:21 <karen> ...about what others due
08:58:33 <karen> ...European Interoperabilty Framework (EIF)
08:58:37 <karen> ...was developed
08:59:00 <karen> ...same people who developed the open standards definition
08:59:12 <karen> ...I did an interoperabilty analysis for egov for them
08:59:18 <karen> ...I came up with three levels we take into account
08:59:30 <karen> ...First is syntactical; exchange of XML schema
08:59:34 <karen> ...second one is semantic
08:59:47 <karen> ...still have procedural constraints
08:59:55 <karen> ...so has to be procedural interoperability
09:00:01 <karen> ...and this is hardest to do
09:00:13 <karen> ...Current frameworks only touch on schema interoperability
09:00:35 <karen> ...Linked Open data is a large test on whether we can achieve interoperability on intra and inter-gov't data
09:00:50 <karen> ...It's for them a concrete problem how to exchange data between them
09:00:53 <karen> ...have constraints
09:01:03 <karen> ...just cannot send things from one dept to another
09:01:09 <karen> ...gov't has to constrain itself 
09:01:15 <karen> ...there are walls
09:01:23 <karen> ...this interoperability frameworks touches on them
09:01:28 <karen> ...also touches on rules for procurement
09:01:40 <karen> ...Procurement is an important level for gov'ts to achieve what they want
09:01:44 <karen> ...versus what the vendors want
09:01:59 <karen> Jim: I think the term interoperability frameworks is a high-level term, like APIs
09:02:12 <karen> ...would be a mistake to read too much into it
09:02:17 <karen> ...somehow exchange data
09:02:23 <karen> ...I am chair of board of the Open Group
09:02:42 <karen> ...50 states had data set up differently for example
09:02:53 <karen> ...they got together to develop a common framework
09:03:03 <karen> ...so applications sold to schools could use that same framewok
09:03:10 <karen> ...in that case it's an XML framework
09:03:15 <karen> ...simple, does the job
09:03:26 <karen> ...for good or ill, it has been put in legislation as a matter of law
09:03:40 <karen> ...works well enough that other places are starting to implement it as well
09:03:51 <karen> ...Schools Interoperability Framework (SIF)
09:03:53 <sandro> "Schools Interoperability Framework"
09:04:03 <karen> ...We can talk about them, but need to speak more generally
09:04:19 <karen> Roger: So I am hearing that interoperabilty farmework is a rationalization of open standards
09:04:30 <karen> Jim: developed from Microsoft
09:04:47 <karen> Karen Burns: I am queen of interoperabilty framework for New Zealand gov't
09:04:58 <karen> ...from end to end, procurement, how we use tech
09:05:08 <karen> ...I have to transform siloed agencies to collaborate
09:05:18 <karen> ...globally these things have been focused on technical standards
09:05:24 <karen> ...if it's open it reduces my cost
09:05:31 <karen> Roger: I would call it information architecture
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09:05:40 <karen> Karen: for us it wraps everything together
09:05:50 <karen> Sandro: What I heard IF is the way you cross the silos
09:05:56 <karen> Karen: policy, standards, processes
09:06:01 <karen> ...things are maturing now
09:06:09 <karen> ...I am playing now in the transformational side
09:06:13 <karen> ...legal and policies to change things
09:06:25 <karen> Gautier: I think there are different levels for interoperability
09:06:35 <karen> ...Semantic Web is an interoperabilty framework
09:06:44 <karen> ...Rigo explained that it's more semantic global
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09:06:51 <karen> ...we have to explain this different lower level 
09:06:55 <karen> ...of frameworks
09:07:07 <karen> ...for example, first you have RDF, the OWL
09:07:26 <karen> Sandro: There are different ways of breaking that down
09:07:34 <karen> Daniel: so regarding interoperability
09:07:41 <karen> ...I found a license I would have to sign
09:07:48 <karen> ...to use this software
09:07:56 <karen> ...license is asking me, if I have an application
09:08:01 <karen> ...based on data the gov't gave me
09:08:07 <karen> ...that whenever the gov't updates the data
09:08:14 <karen> ...then I have to update my site
09:08:22 <karen> ...so that's how far we go into interoperability
09:08:28 <karen> ...if you operate something you have to do it well
09:08:42 <karen> ...It does not prevent that you have to use open standards
09:08:47 <karen> Rigo: We had that problem
09:08:55 <karen> ...for a very long time I was lobbying to have laws 
09:09:00 <karen> free online
09:09:09 <karen> ...From Journal Officiel
09:09:13 <karen> ...they got commercial entitty
09:09:22 <karen> ...prepared ready to go database on a military service
09:09:40 <karen> ...and just by doing this they earned 6 million francs per year
09:09:51 <karen> ...If your application doesn't reflect the law
09:09:59 <karen> ...so they must force you to update your stuff
09:10:14 <karen> Daniel: if not interoperabilty through open standard
09:10:25 <karen> ...one day for another they could switch XML syntax
09:10:31 <karen> Sandro: So one question
09:10:44 <karen> ...what is the difference between interoperability and open gov't data?
09:10:53 <karen> Rigo: There is a large overlap
09:10:58 <karen> Karen: that is a whole other discussion
09:11:12 <karen> Rigo: Take the UK example of when they released tons of data
09:11:21 <karen> ...they correlated the crime and geolocation data
09:11:24 <karen> ...also complaint data
09:11:29 <karen> ...local mayors and villages
09:11:37 <karen> ...in areas where you had an idiot who complained a lot
09:11:45 <karen> ...the price of your house was half what it was before
09:11:52 <karen> ...because people were thinking it was a bad area
09:11:59 <karen> ...from complaints about noise or theft
09:12:25 <karen> Roger: in a highly regulated industry, we must provide gov't with a lot of data
09:12:34 <karen> ...mixed up with gov't standards
09:12:43 <karen> Sandro: A clear definition for interoperabilty
09:13:01 <karen> Emanuelle: I see it around domains
09:13:18 <karen> ...a certain level of interoperabilty to exchange in a bounded domain
09:13:34 <karen> ...have to define constraints that are domain specific
09:13:41 <karen> Gautier: there are other issues
09:13:44 <karen> ...like archiving
09:13:47 <karen> ...Private data
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09:14:08 <karen> ...you have to have data to think about archiving it, even if not public
09:14:16 <karen> ...yet have to think about archiving issues
09:14:28 <karen> ...have to think about interoperability of data in data preservation
09:14:46 <karen> Yosueke: We are talking about Interoperabilty Frameworks and Interoperabilty
09:14:58 <karen> ...IF is broader term
09:15:04 <karen> ...covers mapping and procedural aspects
09:15:15 <karen> ...there is also possibility to extend interoperabilty
09:15:22 <karen> ...semantics, culture are different
09:15:28 <karen> ...can exchange data
09:15:39 <karen> ...IF is something will be the premise for
09:15:47 <karen> ...cooperatively working with gov't
09:15:59 <karen> Daniel: What I have seen in past couple of years
09:16:05 <karen> ...with work TimBL is doing
09:16:08 <karen> ...more on policy side
09:16:14 <karen> ...gov't making data open for free
09:16:25 <karen> ...assumption of geeks is we will make something out of the data
09:16:30 <karen> ...there is a change in spirit
09:16:40 <karen> ...do something useful and we will make sense of it
09:16:48 <karen> ...there is a change I think
09:17:10 <karen> Vagner: interoperability is more realted to policy, rules, architecture that provide conditions to data exchange or application exchagne
09:17:23 <karen> ...Open data is one way to faiclitate interoperability; not the only way
09:17:38 <karen> Jim: Looking down stream, I think the term open data
09:17:38 <sandro> Vagner-br:  open data as one way to get interoperablity
09:17:43 <karen> ...is going to lead to problems
09:17:50 <karen> ...may interpret it as public data
09:18:11 <karen> ...in Norway, open public data is what their individual income and taxes are
09:18:26 <karen> ...may not be the same with other gov'ts
09:18:37 <karen> ...we will need to have terminolofy that people will understand clearly
09:18:47 <karen> ...if people around this table are having trouble with distinctions
09:18:54 <karen> ...the legislators and public will have trouble, too
09:18:57 <karen> Karen: second that
09:19:15 <karen> Sandro: In the IG note they define open gov't data and public sector info as synonymous
09:19:26 <karen> Rigo: yes
09:19:31 <karen> ...I would not overload the term
09:19:47 <karen> ...what we mean is this is data that you can get from the gov't without forcing them by court
09:19:57 <karen> ...we can extend in light of Daniel's experience
09:20:04 <karen> ...we may mean it's in digital format
09:20:11 <karen> ...and avoid the paper route
09:20:18 <karen> ...which they are capable of doing
09:20:26 <karen> ...so I think it's what is available publicly
09:20:39 <karen> Daniel: public sector info is not the same thing as open data
09:20:45 <karen> Roger: I just did some Google searches
09:20:54 <karen> ...I convinced myself that interoperability framework 
09:21:04 <karen> ...does not have a widely accepted defnition
09:21:20 <karen> ...first reference is to the Estonian Interoperability Framework
09:21:34 <karen> Rigo: That is not surprising; the Estonians and Austrians were the first in this area
09:21:57 <karen> Roger: suggest that you define it clearly
09:22:02 <karen> Karen: it means nothing right now
09:22:08 <karen> Rigo: a catch-all
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09:22:16 <karen> Daniel: One remark is that eGov activity 
09:22:23 <karen> ...reminds of beginning of WAI
09:22:30 <karen> ...it was clear that we needed several groups
09:22:37 <karen> ...Education and Outreach to agree on terms
09:22:45 <karen> ...technical groups, one of access
09:22:55 <karen> ...keep in mind that the education and outreach was one of the first ones
09:23:04 <karen> ...we need to have some kind of group to deal with that task force
09:23:14 <karen> Sandro: so about five minutes before break
09:23:24 <karen> ...one more slide on interoperability
09:23:32 <karen> ...we have raised many of them
09:23:58 <karen> ...Go quickly through next two
09:24:04 <karen> 4. Multi-channel delivery
09:24:13 <karen> ...providing services through multiple channels
09:24:22 <karen> ...from f2f and phone to web and mobile
09:24:32 <karen> ...issues were about really understanding the requirements of the consumer
09:24:36 <karen> ...mobile devices are limited
09:24:43 <karen> ...coordination of the different channels
09:24:54 <karen> ...so you don't provide different levels of service on different channels
09:24:57 <karen> ...and Accessibilty
09:25:06 <karen> Fifth Item is Identification and Authentication
09:25:19 <karen> ...allows confidence in transactions
09:25:48 <karen> ...but "lack of coherent analogies to the forms and protocols that have endured for centuries"
09:26:05 <karen> ...notion of fair rsk allocation and risk
09:26:20 <karen> ...gov't may think it controls id authentication but cannot
09:26:28 <karen> ...Finally, next steps
09:26:49 <karen> ...It was an active group at the time document was written
09:27:03 <karen> ...Spirit of enthusiasm to help gov't transition
09:27:08 <karen> ...Focus on Linked Data
09:27:15 <karen> ...and look at data provenance issues
09:27:20 <karen> ...The actual next steps for IG
09:27:24 <karen> ...unless something changes
09:27:32 <karen> ...will run as more low-level
09:27:39 <karen> ...meeting 1 to 2x a month
09:27:45 <karen> ...with speakers; more like a seminar
09:27:52 <karen> ...coming out of these topics
09:28:04 <karen> ...Hoping to get your input on topics
09:28:15 <karen> ...of interest to you; or ones you may be willing to speak about
09:28:25 <karen> ...maybe that will draw a new community and do a new veresion of these reports
09:28:41 <karen> ...Let's take a break in 30 minutes
09:30:29 <karen> rrsagent, make minutes
09:30:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-egov-minutes.html karen
09:47:33 <karen> [Break]
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10:14:05 <karen> We had a lot of interest
10:14:18 <karen> But when we convened the meetings, nobody came
10:14:29 <karen> Sandro: It was a surprise for me
10:14:39 <karen> ...working with software developers I had not seen anything like that
10:15:02 <karen> ...what I came to understand is that eGov IG participants are doing all this on their own time
10:15:14 <karen> ...looking for immediate, actionable things
10:15:23 <karen> ...We continued to hold telcons for these groups
10:15:30 <karen> ...but light attendance and petered out
10:15:43 <karen> ...the demo people did some good work
10:15:48 <karen> ...The main group meetings
10:15:59 <karen> ...were every other week
10:16:16 <karen> ...in spring we switched to seminar style meetings
10:16:21 <karen> ...presentations were well attended
10:16:25 <karen> ...first was DCAT
10:16:29 <karen> ...spun off a task force
10:16:34 <karen> ...with an issues list
10:16:40 <karen> ...on hiatus now
10:16:47 <karen> ...Also had a presentation on data.gov.uk
10:17:02 <karen> ...and way to get a linked data for developers familiar with JSON
10:17:14 <karen> ...We had another presentation from NYS legislator group
10:17:24 <karen> ...talking about an initiative about publishing linked data
10:17:29 <karen> ...lively discussion talking through issues
10:17:45 <karen> ...We had one meeting about a public notice system
10:18:00 <karen> ...We are looking to schedule more discussions over the next year, so interested in proposals
10:18:21 <karen> ...Then this idea to have a WG to do Gov't Linked Data
10:18:24 <karen> ...this has been discussed
10:18:28 <karen> ...and there is high interest
10:18:35 <karen> ...we are looking for appropriate chairs
10:18:46 <karen> ...and we will talk about that tomorrow
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10:23:16 <sandro> Karen_Burns: (introducing self, Karen Myers taking notes on flipchart)
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10:28:31 <sandro> Rigo_Wenning
10:28:57 <sandro> Gautier_Poupeau: digital preservation & archving
10:29:07 <sandro> ... the how and why of open data
10:29:54 <sandro> ... help organization understand its place in the ecosystem (the web).
10:31:13 <sandro> Emmanuelle_Bermes: Library data (public institutions, part of egov data)
10:32:18 <sandro> ibrahima, you're welcome to come sit at the table, in that open spot.
10:35:34 <sandro> Yosuke Funahashi, Tomo-Digi Corporation: Emergency Information --- spacial, temporal
10:35:53 <sandro> .... many earthquakes, many typhoons
10:36:14 <sandro> ... disaster prevention -- most important task of government
10:36:34 <sandro> ... temporal reason; in this group?
10:37:28 <sandro> ... defn of disaster.    old defn earthquake, typhoon, etc.   evolving definition, including Virus
10:37:57 <sandro> ralph: how much is about maintaining good records, how much is about real-time recovery
10:39:03 <sandro> yosuke: three steps -- anticipation and information delivery; 2 govt response info when disaster happens;    --- equally important
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10:40:45 <sandro> ibrahima: at W3C office in Senegal.      View of egovt in Senegal is not great; looking for ways to communicate its benefits
10:41:14 <sandro> ... demographic info not well exposed.
10:42:22 <sandro> Jim_Bell: mostly here to educate myself about this, for AB.    Also, HP does a lot of business with gov'ts. 
10:43:29 <sandro> Jim_Bell: at HP, I do industry standards program office (over 500 people), open source program office (3000 people), office of accessibily and aging (all products/serv), ergonomics 
10:43:50 <sandro> ... gov'ts are interested in all of these
10:45:11 <sandro> # Jose Leocadio, SERPRO (Brazilian Federal Agency of Information Technology) 
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10:46:20 <sandro> jose: data cloud, related to privacy and security
10:46:47 <sandro> Roger Cutler, Chevron [TUESDAY ONLY] 
10:55:34 <sandro> roger: equipment catalogs, for procurement    (cf what's on pb blowout preventer)
10:56:06 <sandro> Vagner Diniz: lack of vocabs
10:57:12 <sandro> jim bell: very complex public procurement rules
11:00:50 <sandro> Vagner_Diniz: head of W3C Brazil office
11:02:02 <sandro> Vagner: Even if gov't publishes data on web, that doesn't mean it will be used.    Gov't data may not be interesting, relevant
11:02:52 <sandro> ... translated WG Note to Portuguese, printed 2000 copies
11:03:07 <sandro> ... program on How to Publish open data on the web
11:07:56 <sandro> Harry Halpin
11:08:15 <sandro> # David Rogers, Wholesale Applications Community (WAC) [TUESDAY ONLY] 
11:10:05 <sandro> Ralph Swick
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11:13:58 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2010/10/five-star/linked_data
11:18:10 <sandro> robin: apie -- "open data" is something we can sell
11:19:52 <sandro> agenda+ Do open data, linked open data outreach and advocacy?
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13:16:59 <sandro> # Bede McCall, MITRE Corporation 
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13:17:30 <sandro> Bede: we look at the govt from inside
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13:19:34 <sandro> Rigo giving presentation on EU Public Sector Information
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13:22:25 <karen> Topic: Rigo Wenning Presentation on EU and Privacy
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13:25:49 <sandro> bede: what if govt puts the service up there?
13:26:12 <sandro> rigo: would do that if there is on market, or to destroy the govt.
13:26:16 <sandro> s/govt/market/
13:26:27 <sandro> s/on market/no market/
13:27:17 <sandro> bede: US agencies only respond to directives, not requests.
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13:39:25 <sandro> some discussion of 27bn euro figure for PSI market, footnote to mepsir helm 2006
13:42:55 <sandro> rigo: BBC documentaries are public sector information, etc.
13:46:06 <sandro> rigo: ign lyon maps more expensive that getting your own plane and duplicating it yourself.
13:49:01 <karen> Bede: when you have a normative law
13:49:14 <karen> when you get to issues like law and regulation
13:49:25 <karen> there must be some sort of licensing arrangement
13:49:33 <karen> Rigo: yes, what I know is copyright laws
13:49:42 <karen> ...you cannot create another authoritative version
13:49:46 <karen> ...you can republish
13:49:52 <karen> ...but there is a lot of gray area
13:50:04 <karen> ...huge gap between copyright violation
13:50:11 <karen> Bede: you don't really copyright laws
13:50:16 <karen> Rigo: different concepts
13:50:34 <karen> ...in several European countries there is copyright over the law
13:50:50 <karen> Robin: in France there were constraints; it's about making money
13:51:01 <karen> Rigo: about norms being stable
13:51:12 <karen> TimBL: I would suggest it has nothing to do with copyright
13:51:18 <karen> ...if it says this is the law
13:51:22 <karen> ...and you change it, you are lying
13:51:27 <karen> ...if you said this is what Congress passed
13:51:38 <sandro> tim: this is about fraud, not copyright, if you re-publish the law changed
13:51:45 <karen> ...if you take off this is what Congress passed and what I proposed in the EU, that should be ok
13:51:54 <karen> Bede: your opinion of the law is welcome
13:52:08 <karen> ...but what I was getting at was the business  of why the gov't would want to license laws and regulation
13:52:17 <karen> DanielD: the gov't license I got
13:52:35 <karen> ...was committing myself to update data and conform with their format
13:52:42 <karen> Bede: so a contractual obligation
13:52:49 <karen> Daniel: yes, a kind of license
13:52:55 <karen> Bede: So if you put this information online
13:52:59 <karen> ...is that general access?
13:53:05 <karen> Daniel: If I put it on source and date
13:53:18 <karen> Bede: as a licensee you are held responsible
13:53:23 <karen> Daniel: yes, for updating my source
13:53:41 <karen> Bede: I made a copy of someone's database and made a few changes to exclude myself
13:53:47 <karen> ...Is that source responsible then?
13:53:54 <karen> Daniel: Would be a different kind of license
13:54:09 <karen> ...the license I read (earlier today) I would have to change it so you use the right one
13:54:17 <karen> ...I update as my source data, then I don't think I have to do it
13:54:30 <karen> Bede: so you have publicly available info on the Web
13:54:37 <karen> ...so what happens when someone makes a copy of that
13:54:45 <karen> ...potential to change the substance of the law
13:54:51 <karen> Sandro: in several different contexts
13:55:02 <karen> ...I have seen demand for gov't data to be clearly labeled
13:55:12 <karen> ...I think of these problems being solved by labeling
13:55:15 <karen> ...but may not be enough
13:55:22 <karen> ...may need signature on a document
13:55:29 <karen> Daniel: you may not be able to change it
13:55:42 <karen> ...can I augment the database if i add new info
13:55:51 <karen> ...how legal is that depends upon the license
13:55:59 <karen> Rigo: It is difficult to write a sensible license
13:56:04 <karen> ...things that are supposed to be normative
13:56:09 <karen> ...there is a need for protection
13:56:16 <karen> ...some of it is assumed by just the legal system
13:56:27 <karen> ...and you don't see it anyway; this is partly the case in France
13:56:39 <karen> ...In the German case you can copy and distribute as you want but cannot change it
13:56:42 <karen> ...for all normative rule things
13:56:55 <karen> ...If you could change it, you would be the new principal in town to rule in a certain area
13:57:05 <karen> ...for other factual data, this is not needed
13:57:10 <karen> TimBL: if you could change it
13:57:29 <karen> ...if someone takes a W3C spec and publish as someone different, they are not a new game in town
13:57:48 <karen> ...you cannot be a new Parliament just by changing the laws and publishing
13:57:59 <karen> Rigo: If I change words and cal it a law
13:58:07 <karen> ...and publish it then I violate
13:58:21 <karen> TimBL: has to do with the rule of law and the type of constitution you are under
13:58:26 <karen> Rigo: One way of making sure
13:58:37 <karen> ...that the principal is only one creating those laws
13:58:42 <karen> ...you can have an opinion
13:58:47 <karen> ...and you can say this is how it would look
13:58:51 <karen> Bede: that's fine
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13:58:59 <karen> Rigo: But to say it's the new law or new spec, you cannot
13:59:06 <karen> ...but in some countries it's organized by copyright
13:59:19 <karen> ...if you do that, it's an aggressive act that could trigger military action
13:59:26 <karen> Gautier: Not just the core aspect
13:59:32 <karen> ...there is a psychological aspect
13:59:39 <karen> ...a license can be a comfort to people
13:59:42 <karen> ...to help to expose their data
13:59:44 <karen> ...it's mine
13:59:53 <karen> ...with a license we can say, your project, your data
13:59:57 <sandro> Gautier: not the just a juridical concept
13:59:58 <karen> ...no problem, you can expose
14:00:01 <karen> ...I think we don't
14:00:06 <karen> ...we have to keep in mind this aspect
14:00:17 <karen> ...I think it very important to comfort people in order to expose data
14:00:28 <karen> ...a license can help them not to be worried about that
14:00:34 <karen> Daniel: You mean a user of the system?
14:00:38 <karen> ...or programmer?
14:00:46 <karen> Gautier: I think about manager on the gov't side
14:00:52 <karen> Daniel: yes on of the fears about losing control
14:00:55 <sandro> Gautier: license helps the managers in the govt feel better about the system
14:00:57 <karen> Gautier: it's a good way
14:01:10 <karen> Daniel: I understand that the gov't asks me to update the source
14:01:19 <karen> ...but to ask me to maintain the data format is far-fetched
14:01:29 <karen> Rigo: In Europe, not US yet but discussing,
14:01:33 <karen> ...is the right on data bases
14:01:36 <karen> ...if you have a data base
14:01:40 <karen> ...it is protected as such
14:01:45 <karen> ...again a question for the licensing
14:01:54 <karen> ...if public sector is giving out this data for free
14:02:07 <karen> ...how do we protect from private companies taking a copy of the data
14:02:14 <karen> ...and prohibit others from doing things with it
14:02:27 <karen> ...a very interesting question on how to create licensing to prevent it from happening
14:02:32 <karen> ...So we come back to the charging
14:02:44 <karen> ...where it's only triggered if you have a substantial investment into the database
14:02:52 <karen> Bede: Something like a GPL to solve it
14:02:56 <karen> ...it's a viral license
14:03:07 <karen> Rigo: the viral thing bites you when you have a commercial company doing the product
14:03:12 <karen> Bede: Format issue there
14:03:17 <karen> Rigo: Can you separate that?
14:03:20 <karen> ...interesting discussions
14:03:27 <karen> Gautier: If you want to make an open system
14:03:33 <karen> ...you cannot have a license like GPL
14:03:39 <karen> ...what is the role?
14:03:47 <karen> ...to make an ecosystem with eGov data
14:04:03 <karen> ...you need to have a world wide license
14:04:07 <karen> Bede: Statements of law
14:04:22 <karen> Gautier: two different things; the data and the code
14:04:35 <karen> Rigo: If you use this virally infected data in your code
14:04:40 <karen> ...you have people shying away
14:04:44 <karen> Bede: So I understand
14:04:57 <karen> ...Just thinking of a way to cover the content, the substance of law is about this
14:05:02 <karen> Rigo: ok
14:05:31 <karen> Rigo: What I want to say is that W3C is talking with EU on a high level
14:05:40 <karen> ...public sector data is high on their agenda
14:05:54 <karen> ...would like to see the private sector to do useful stuff with it
14:06:04 <karen> ...This will trigger all these other discussion
14:06:11 <karen> ...We need to create a venue for this
14:06:26 <karen> ...globally and agree to matching interoperability
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14:06:31 <karen> Bede: What would W3C's role be in that?
14:06:39 <karen> ...policy, engineering?
14:06:55 <karen> Rigo: we are as a platform pretty neutral
14:06:59 <karen> ...second thing is culture of W3C
14:07:19 <karen> ...you leave your political hat outside and focus more on the technology engineering
14:07:27 <karen> ...this culture that makes agreements on this level
14:07:32 <karen> ...is much easier than if you go by the UN
14:07:43 <karen> Bede: But the gov't is still free to ignore you
14:07:54 <karen> ...So what do you say what W3C's opinion is about these topics
14:08:04 <karen> Rigo: I think our Director has an opinion on this
14:08:11 <karen> ...regarding data.gov.uk
14:08:25 <karen> ...There is some unspoken agreement in this room that this is a good thing to pursue
14:08:37 <karen> Bede: true; but what do you tell these gov't people?
14:08:53 <karen> Rigo: we shoult at them, "raw data now" [laughs]
14:09:04 <karen> Daniel: The are using us as an ally
14:09:17 <karen> ...enemy is the bureaucracy and the fear
14:09:22 <karen> Bede: But what is your story
14:09:34 <karen> ...you guys say we should share information, but where do we start?
14:09:50 <karen> Thomas: We have not only been shouting, "raw data now" but "data well done"
14:09:53 <karen> ...and then link them
14:09:57 <karen> ...the five store story
14:10:11 <karen> ...start with raw data and agree on formats first
14:10:23 <karen> ...and drive public sector information 
14:10:31 <karen> ...so that's where a W3C Working Group
14:10:44 <karen> ...could agree upon the ontologies and vocabularies where they make sense
14:10:53 <karen> ...that is our story in Brussels recently
14:10:59 <karen> Rigo: You are invited to shout, too
14:11:05 <karen> ...there is a survey going on right now
14:11:11 <Vagner-br> s/store/stars
14:11:12 <karen> ...encourage you to fill it out online
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14:11:42 <karen> Rigo: Add link to eGov wiki page
14:11:51 <karen> TimBL: one of messages that is hard to get
14:11:55 <karen> ...is about picking your battles
14:12:03 <karen> ...Semantic Web framework helps to do that
14:12:27 <karen> ...Understand it's an investment that will get a larger return
14:13:06 <karen> Bede: on-going issue is toward creating a common schema to cover all gov't data
14:13:11 <karen> ...we had one agency try to do that
14:14:29 <karen> TimBL describes one CIO's need for common reporting for one area 
14:14:43 <karen> Rigo: We are talking with EU Commission on a high level
14:14:53 <karen> ...We expect to do more work on Linked Data
14:15:36 <darobin> I didn't see this link pushed here, so in case it wasn't: http://ec.europa.eu/yourvoice/ipm/forms/dispatch?form=psidirective2010
14:15:38 <karen> Sandro: Our next break is in 15 minutes; we have two more hours
14:15:46 <darobin> that's the EU's public consultation on PSI
14:15:52 <karen> ...I would like to read through the agenda items and get a read 
14:16:01 <karen> ...on what people want to continue discussing
14:16:08 <karen> ...Open data keeps coming up
14:16:12 <karen> ...Tomorrow is about linked data
14:16:18 <karen> ...So we could talk about open data today
14:16:24 <karen> Daniel: Where do you place data?
14:16:52 <karen> ...need to know what kind of data is being talked about
14:16:55 <karen> ...all this naming of things
14:17:05 <karen> Sandro: I tend to deal with this mostly in the LD context
14:17:30 <karen> Daniel: the naming part is important
14:17:40 <karen> ...not sure if any organization is working on public sector naming
14:17:50 <karen> ...I would think there is 80% that would be common
14:18:05 <karen> Sandro: In US there is an initiative from NIEM that addresses some of that in XML
14:18:23 <karen> Sandro: we also talked about Cloud computing; Open Source and Open Standards
14:18:34 <karen> ..Interoperability and Interoperability Frameworks
14:18:43 <karen> ...Vocabularies and Open Data
14:18:46 <karen> ...Identity
14:18:59 <karen> Gautier: another topic about eGov education and outreach
14:19:16 <karen> ...we are all convinced but how do we convince others?
14:19:27 <karen> ...It is very important to have a W3C perspective
14:19:37 <karen> ...and to help us to evangelize
14:19:46 <karen> Daniel: related to eGov outreach is the organizational side
14:20:02 <karen> ...Would be to do more than one WG; would need more funding and investment
14:20:23 <karen> Sandro: Structure of a larger eGov initiative
14:20:57 <karen> Voting on topics
14:21:12 <karen> 1. Social media in Gov't - 0
14:21:19 <karen> 2. Mobile access to gov't services -0
14:21:29 <karen> 3. Open Gov't data - 6
14:21:42 <karen> Vagner: I can present cases here is you want
14:21:47 <karen> 4. Cloud computing - 0
14:22:00 <karen> 5. Open Source and Open Standards - 0
14:22:19 <karen> 6. Interoperability and Interop Frameworks - 0
14:22:28 <karen> 7. Vocabularies - 5
14:23:02 <karen> 8. Identity - 5
14:23:10 <karen> 9. eGov outreach - 6
14:23:21 <karen> 10. eGov Initiative at W3C - 2
14:23:25 <karen> Combine 10 with 9
14:24:00 <karen> Sandro: we can combine top choices
14:24:07 <karen> ...take shorter break
14:24:20 <karen> ...back at 3:50 sharp start
14:24:29 <sandro> BREAK
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14:29:17 <karen> Sandro: Let's start with Education and Outreach; 
14:29:31 <karen> Identity; Open Data
14:29:40 <karen> Rest of day discussion topics
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15:29:13 <sandro> topic: Open Gov't Data
15:29:24 <sandro> # Review Publishing Open Government Data
15:29:24 <sandro> # dcat, ckan, open knowledge foundation (?)
15:29:24 <sandro> # Connections to POI WG, Provenance XG 
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15:29:44 <sandro> Rigo: What about geography in provenance....    firewalls
15:30:12 <sandro> bede: Internal to govts -- provenance is very hot.
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16:03:58 <emma> Harry Halpin is presenting Identity issues
16:06:14 <karen> karen has joined #egov
16:11:55 <MacTed> karen, can you resume scribing?  or someone else, please?
16:12:31 <MacTed> RRSAgent, pointer?
16:12:31 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-egov-irc#T16-12-31
16:14:54 <emma> Discussing security levels in Identity in different countries EU vs. US, others
16:17:08 <sandro> brazil: no, just a plan for electronic passpaorts.
16:19:48 <sandro> japan: no, japanese citizens are very resistant to being treated as "numbers" by the gov't
16:20:29 <emma> Harry H. : people of this group interested in a workshop on requirements for identity ?
16:20:59 <rigo> currently discussing identity schemes
16:21:15 <rigo> have looked at US initiatives
16:21:50 <rigo> then to EU intiatives like EID and www.eid-stork.eu
16:22:00 <rigo> then talking about identity solutions in Japan
16:22:33 <rigo> suggestion about a workshop in identity (to be held in Berlin around April) was well received
16:23:10 <rigo> DD: IG scope charter, education & outreach is in scope
16:23:11 <emma> Topic: Education & outreach
16:23:19 <rigo> ...there is work in this area, but how to organize
16:23:27 <rigo> ...not one person doing everything
16:23:41 <rigo> SH: was part of the charter and haven' t done it
16:24:39 <emma> Rigo: gov'ts want knowledge from W3C on how this technology works
16:24:54 <emma> ...and have funding issues
16:25:30 <emma> ... govts face a chicken & egg problem
16:27:30 <emma> ...need for shared financing at international level
16:28:04 <sandro> rigo: Much easier for govts to send us people than money.   Get them to send people, with travel budgets.
16:34:56 <rigo> still problem to get the resources for work in the identity space
16:36:48 <rigo> dues are not an issue, showing up and getting people involved is tricky
16:37:36 <rigo> issue is to get a budget that persists for more than a fiscal year
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