IRC log of egov on 2010-11-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:49:49 [RRSAgent]
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07:49:49 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-egov-irc
07:50:00 [sandro]
RRSAgent, make log public
07:50:07 [sandro]
RRSAgent, pointer?
07:50:07 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-egov-irc#T07-50-07
07:50:22 [Zakim]
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07:50:28 [sandro]
zakim, who is on the call?
07:50:28 [Zakim]
sorry, sandro, I don't know what conference this is
07:50:29 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, sandro, karen, MacTed, trackbot
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08:06:58 [sandro]
dd: 2005 network of offices
08:07:11 [sandro]
dd: PSI directive in EU
08:07:33 [sandro]
dd: JoseMa ctic had funding to start this activity
08:07:56 [sandro]
dd: document sept 2005, me and rigo
08:08:25 [sandro]
dd: 2007 asturias workshop to launch activity/group
08:08:33 [Vagner-br]
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08:09:03 [sandro]
dd: internet governance forum, PSI directive, a lot of resources
08:09:30 [sandro]
dd: workship in Vilnius, 3 weeks ago
08:09:48 [sandro]
dd: culture of some countries, to keep info closed.
08:10:50 [karen]
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08:11:03 [sandro]
dd: tried to get bicycle accident info for my town in France
08:11:57 [darobin]
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08:12:03 [sandro]
dd: they're sending it on paper
08:12:10 [sandro]
dd: !
08:12:40 [sandro]
karen: in W3C we're normally pulled; in this case it seems like push -- govts are often very resistant.
08:13:06 [sandro]
karen: A few weeks ago, Tim was invited to speek at Harvard, Kennedy School
08:13:24 [sandro]
karen: Mostly older professors, steeped in govt history
08:13:39 [sandro]
karen: ... but they didn't even know basic things, eg twitter
08:13:55 [sandro]
karen: ... some folks had a nice openness to understand
08:14:07 [sandro]
karen: ... push that has to get done
08:14:26 [sandro]
karen: Where can W3C focus?
08:15:01 [emma]
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08:15:28 [yosuke]
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08:17:47 [karen]
scribenick: Karen
08:18:50 [karen]
Sandro review eGov IG Note published
08:19:07 [karen]
Organized in five main topics
08:19:16 [karen]
1. Participation and Cititzen Engagement
08:19:31 [karen]
key point to allow public servants to use public Web sites
08:20:17 [karen]
http://www.w3.org/TR/egov-improving/
08:20:33 [sandro]
these slides: http://www.w3.org/2010/Talks/1101-egov/
08:21:09 [karen]
Sandro: this document points out things that planners need to understand
08:21:19 [karen]
may be obious to some, but not to those who are new
08:21:33 [karen]
Rigo: tax declaration system in France
08:21:58 [karen]
...challenge with massive scaling in gov't sector
08:22:10 [karen]
...can overwhelm your servers
08:22:37 [karen]
Roger Cutler: you should talk to the "Dancing with the Stars" show
08:22:45 [karen]
...they had public voting that overwhelmed the system
08:22:55 [karen]
...not sure what they did to overcome it
08:23:02 [karen]
Rigo: Cloud computing is so important to eGov
08:23:10 [karen]
...so you can start small and scale quickly
08:23:24 [karen]
...private industry support will be important
08:23:33 [sandro]
agenda+ cloud computing,
08:23:58 [karen]
Sandro: traditional mechanisms of getting comments from the public have not scaled in the past
08:24:07 [karen]
...Web makes it easier for public to comment on public policies
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08:24:52 [karen]
2. Participation and Engagement Issues
08:25:37 [karen]
Sandro: challenges for what gov't employees can and cannot do; what roles and persona they may take on
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08:25:44 [karen]
...how to use social networking
08:26:04 [karen]
...what are fora for asking authoritative questions
08:26:14 [karen]
...data portability; archiving
08:26:19 [karen]
...lots of big questions
08:26:31 [karen]
Second big issues was Open Gov't Data
08:26:53 [karen]
...this section was written 1.5 years ago
08:27:02 [karen]
q+
08:28:36 [karen]
...not particularly focused about various technologies
08:28:38 [karen]
ack Karen
08:28:53 [karen]
Karen: one reason for that was main message was "please use standard technologies in gov't
08:29:30 [karen]
and also many different levels of experience regarding use of Semantic Web technologies, XML, HTML, etc.
08:29:44 [karen]
Sandro: other issues are limitations of gov't employees to participate
08:29:54 [karen]
Third Part was Interoperability
08:30:10 [karen]
...concept of interoperability in time
08:30:15 [karen]
...big thing is using open standards
08:30:53 [karen]
Rigo: EU Interoperability Framework uses a definition
08:30:57 [karen]
...that fits W3C pretty well
08:31:03 [karen]
...but other groups did not
08:31:14 [karen]
...took lobbyists a couple years to get that off the agenda
08:31:25 [karen]
...We fit the EIF1 definition of Open Standards
08:31:44 [karen]
Sandro: another technique is to use open source to promote interoperability
08:31:51 [karen]
Roger: Why? I don't understand it
08:32:00 [karen]
Rigo: let me explain that from a larger perspective
08:32:14 [karen]
...EU point of view since I was involved in work here
08:32:36 [karen]
...For example one village acquired some development software
08:32:40 [karen]
...then made it open source
08:32:56 [karen]
...the mayors of various cities would meet and describe same problem
08:33:05 [karen]
...and suggested they use open source solution
08:33:10 [karen]
...this was a strong trend
08:33:25 [karen]
...so they realized they could tailor things more effectively
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08:33:38 [karen]
...so it built the rumor that open source is good with eGov
08:33:48 [karen]
Roger: so it has nothing to do with interoperability
08:34:11 [karen]
Rigo: correct; there is a large understanding that open source meant to these towns and villages to get things done
08:34:29 [karen]
Jim: non-technical people don't understand difference
08:34:34 [karen]
...between open standards and open source
08:34:35 [sandro]
agenda+ open source
08:34:45 [karen]
...some of non-technical people include the high-level policy makers
08:35:01 [karen]
...don't know difference between open standards and open source
08:35:07 [karen]
...As Roger pointed out, it's a myth
08:35:16 [karen]
...if you allow customization, it's a virtue
08:35:22 [karen]
...but it pushes against interoperability
08:35:26 [karen]
...it's a complicated question
08:35:36 [karen]
...has to be looked at on a case by case basis
08:35:43 [karen]
...We should make the case about open standards
08:35:58 [karen]
Sandro: in this report there is a page and a half on open standards and a little on open source
08:36:11 [karen]
Roger: I think W3C should not endorse open source vs. vendor products
08:36:17 [karen]
...there are real problems with open source
08:36:26 [karen]
Jim: really not a question about open source
08:36:41 [karen]
...I am responsible for open source and open standards across HP
08:36:54 [karen]
...no gov't could decide only to buy proprietary
08:37:04 [karen]
...it's a development methodology, not an alternative to open standarads
08:37:07 [karen]
s/standards
08:37:13 [karen]
Rigo: the big fight is about what is open
08:37:24 [karen]
...after EIF shifted their definition
08:37:41 [karen]
...like example of CRM being relabeled identity management
08:37:49 [karen]
...then everything became "open" term
08:38:03 [karen]
..."open" now meaningless because it's the latest cool term
08:38:11 [karen]
...everybody claims to be open
08:38:18 [karen]
...but maybe we should develop criteria for that
08:38:18 [sandro]
rigo: Everybody claims to be open now
08:38:33 [karen]
Roger: and we have something called "Open Spirit" a proprietary software
08:38:48 [karen]
Vagner Diniz: it's not wrong to say we can find more friendly people
08:39:06 [karen]
...among open standards rather than proprietary community
08:39:11 [karen]
...idea is not to advocate open source
08:39:16 [karen]
...but we should advocate open standards
08:39:32 [karen]
...in terms of awareness we can find more friendly people in the open source community; they are more helpful for us
08:39:43 [karen]
Daniel: open source and open standards are not the same, yes
08:39:57 [karen]
...Open source people do like us because we give them open standards which are free
08:40:07 [karen]
...whether or not open source is good in and of itself
08:40:12 [karen]
...as a way to develop software
08:40:16 [karen]
...free software
08:40:23 [karen]
...is a philosophy
08:40:31 [karen]
...sharing programming is hard
08:40:38 [karen]
...some W3C people come from this community
08:41:03 [karen]
...saying it's just a development methodology may offend some
08:41:38 [karen]
Gautier Poupeau: different question with exposed data
08:41:47 [karen]
...we can make interoperability with data
08:41:51 [karen]
...and open source data
08:41:55 [karen]
...but that is not the key point
08:42:21 [karen]
Roger: I was just commenting on promoting interoperability and open source
08:42:30 [karen]
Rigo: It's a how on promoting eGov and open data
08:42:42 [karen]
...open source is often used as a pre-cursor with low investment development
08:42:51 [karen]
...before doing a commercial product
08:43:13 [karen]
...there is this aspect that leads to this kind of assertion, but we have to disambiguate the assertion
08:43:26 [karen]
Jim: I think this is a good topic; we are not wasting time
08:43:35 [karen]
...It is true the open source and open standards community overlap
08:43:39 [karen]
...maybe a stepping pointt
08:43:46 [sandro]
agenda+ relationship between open standards and open source
08:43:52 [karen]
...is what people really want is royalty free
08:44:06 [karen]
...RAND is the default rather than W3C RF
08:44:14 [karen]
...open source can be misleading
08:44:20 [karen]
...it is under a license
08:44:26 [karen]
...HP supports 600 licensees
08:44:30 [karen]
s/licenses
08:44:39 [karen]
...to really follow all those and administrate them is big
08:44:54 [karen]
...cannot just take your program and hand it to the people in the next village
08:44:59 [karen]
...In terms of Linked Data
08:45:05 [karen]
...there have been contraints
08:45:09 [karen]
...one of major ones is Privacy
08:45:21 [karen]
...EU has stricter rules
08:45:53 [karen]
...Different and sometimes conflicting rules about tracking, destroying storing data
08:46:00 [karen]
...Identity for some is heart of security
08:46:08 [karen]
...different ways to protect identity will show up
08:46:18 [karen]
...many issues will face on open source side
08:46:26 [karen]
Roger: Open source is also not risk free
08:46:43 [karen]
...why organizations like mine feel good about use of W3C standards because they are relatively risk fee
08:46:52 [karen]
...they have been rung out and vetted
08:46:58 [karen]
...there are may patent trolls
08:47:33 [karen]
[Roger describes example of patent vulnerability in open source]
08:48:01 [karen]
...I think open source is big risk for a company like ours
08:48:20 [karen]
...risk factors from W3C are very different from Open Source
08:48:34 [karen]
Harry Halpin: I am working in social and identity space for W3C
08:48:41 [karen]
...we are trying to follow US gov't work
08:48:49 [karen]
...I would be interested in hearing from people
08:48:58 [karen]
...Identity is important to eGov
08:49:06 [karen]
...and it's historically an area of patents
08:49:26 [karen]
...Going back to 1998, P3P
08:49:33 [karen]
...importance of RF standards
08:49:41 [karen]
...we need to identify areas that are crucial
08:49:47 [karen]
...there are vastly different requirements
08:49:54 [karen]
...and make sure baseline core standards are RF
08:50:00 [karen]
...and can be implemented
08:50:22 [karen]
...a bit of a weakness; so I'm interested to hear what eGov people think of the identity space
08:50:31 [karen]
Daniel: what I have been looking at for eGov
08:50:34 [karen]
...is about access
08:50:41 [karen]
...you want what you have paid for back
08:50:49 [karen]
...I don't want my identity in this process
08:50:55 [karen]
...I want to make use of the data I paid for
08:51:04 [karen]
...not interaction with gov't that I paid my tax
08:51:10 [karen]
...but another eGov platform area
08:51:37 [karen]
Harry: there is another realm of applications for clinical health records that needs identity assurance
08:51:43 [karen]
Roger: there is something here
08:51:56 [karen]
...thinking about the person who asked Daniel for his physical address
08:52:17 [karen]
...perhaps people are unwilling to send something that could be altered electronically
08:52:28 [karen]
...our company still sends me PDFs to sign and send back
08:52:34 [karen]
...because they don't trust it
08:52:41 [karen]
...there is a huge element of not just making technology work
08:52:52 [karen]
..but getting people to understand that it does work and get them to trust
08:53:03 [karen]
Rigo: I have been involved in EU since 1995
08:53:13 [karen]
...today you can do ID electronically
08:53:22 [karen]
...but IT guys saw business opportunity
08:53:42 [karen]
...but it doesn't take into account the user
08:53:46 [karen]
Jim: coming back to patents
08:53:57 [karen]
...W3C is not immune from patent trolls
08:54:06 [karen]
...trolls can also attack W3C standards
08:54:12 [karen]
...but you want someone to back it up
08:54:23 [karen]
...and Open Source community is not set up to provide that guarantee
08:54:25 [karen]
...on the other side
08:54:36 [karen]
...Open Source benefits from thorough W3C vetting
08:54:52 [karen]
...and many eyes on code are best way to find flaws on code or algorim
08:55:08 [karen]
...so even though Open Source is exposed, it may be more secure due to number of people using it
08:55:21 [karen]
Sandro: Last topic in report was interoperability frameworks
08:55:27 [karen]
...I was not sure about this
08:55:34 [karen]
Rigo: I can give a short presentation about that
08:55:44 [karen]
Sandro: how about two sentences
08:56:00 [karen]
Rigo: We have a large discussion about this topic with EU
08:56:10 [karen]
...they developed a framework
08:56:19 [karen]
...EU is not like US Federal gov't
08:56:42 [karen]
...from inside EU , it's still 27 countries cooperating
08:56:53 [karen]
...focus on how those gov'ts send messages to each other
08:57:22 [karen]
...it is a big area needing procedures
08:57:27 [karen]
...needed to understand data
08:57:35 [karen]
...They started to exchange XML Schema
08:57:43 [karen]
...each gov't had its own schema store
08:58:01 [karen]
...Questions about which models to use, how to find them
08:58:18 [karen]
...For example, we may give local, regional or nat'l gov'ts information
08:58:21 [karen]
...about what others due
08:58:33 [karen]
...European Interoperabilty Framework (EIF)
08:58:37 [karen]
...was developed
08:59:00 [karen]
...same people who developed the open standards definition
08:59:12 [karen]
...I did an interoperabilty analysis for egov for them
08:59:18 [karen]
...I came up with three levels we take into account
08:59:30 [karen]
...First is syntactical; exchange of XML schema
08:59:34 [karen]
...second one is semantic
08:59:47 [karen]
...still have procedural constraints
08:59:55 [karen]
...so has to be procedural interoperability
09:00:01 [karen]
...and this is hardest to do
09:00:13 [karen]
...Current frameworks only touch on schema interoperability
09:00:35 [karen]
...Linked Open data is a large test on whether we can achieve interoperability on intra and inter-gov't data
09:00:50 [karen]
...It's for them a concrete problem how to exchange data between them
09:00:53 [karen]
...have constraints
09:01:03 [karen]
...just cannot send things from one dept to another
09:01:09 [karen]
...gov't has to constrain itself
09:01:15 [karen]
...there are walls
09:01:23 [karen]
...this interoperability frameworks touches on them
09:01:28 [karen]
...also touches on rules for procurement
09:01:40 [karen]
...Procurement is an important level for gov'ts to achieve what they want
09:01:44 [karen]
...versus what the vendors want
09:01:59 [karen]
Jim: I think the term interoperability frameworks is a high-level term, like APIs
09:02:12 [karen]
...would be a mistake to read too much into it
09:02:17 [karen]
...somehow exchange data
09:02:23 [karen]
...I am chair of board of the Open Group
09:02:42 [karen]
...50 states had data set up differently for example
09:02:53 [karen]
...they got together to develop a common framework
09:03:03 [karen]
...so applications sold to schools could use that same framewok
09:03:10 [karen]
...in that case it's an XML framework
09:03:15 [karen]
...simple, does the job
09:03:26 [karen]
...for good or ill, it has been put in legislation as a matter of law
09:03:40 [karen]
...works well enough that other places are starting to implement it as well
09:03:51 [karen]
...Schools Interoperability Framework (SIF)
09:03:53 [sandro]
"Schools Interoperability Framework"
09:04:03 [karen]
...We can talk about them, but need to speak more generally
09:04:19 [karen]
Roger: So I am hearing that interoperabilty farmework is a rationalization of open standards
09:04:30 [karen]
Jim: developed from Microsoft
09:04:47 [karen]
Karen Burns: I am queen of interoperabilty framework for New Zealand gov't
09:04:58 [karen]
...from end to end, procurement, how we use tech
09:05:08 [karen]
...I have to transform siloed agencies to collaborate
09:05:18 [karen]
...globally these things have been focused on technical standards
09:05:24 [karen]
...if it's open it reduces my cost
09:05:31 [karen]
Roger: I would call it information architecture
09:05:35 [MoZ]
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09:05:40 [karen]
Karen: for us it wraps everything together
09:05:50 [karen]
Sandro: What I heard IF is the way you cross the silos
09:05:56 [karen]
Karen: policy, standards, processes
09:06:01 [karen]
...things are maturing now
09:06:09 [karen]
...I am playing now in the transformational side
09:06:13 [karen]
...legal and policies to change things
09:06:25 [karen]
Gautier: I think there are different levels for interoperability
09:06:35 [karen]
...Semantic Web is an interoperabilty framework
09:06:44 [karen]
...Rigo explained that it's more semantic global
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09:06:51 [karen]
...we have to explain this different lower level
09:06:55 [karen]
...of frameworks
09:07:07 [karen]
...for example, first you have RDF, the OWL
09:07:26 [karen]
Sandro: There are different ways of breaking that down
09:07:34 [karen]
Daniel: so regarding interoperability
09:07:41 [karen]
...I found a license I would have to sign
09:07:48 [karen]
...to use this software
09:07:56 [karen]
...license is asking me, if I have an application
09:08:01 [karen]
...based on data the gov't gave me
09:08:07 [karen]
...that whenever the gov't updates the data
09:08:14 [karen]
...then I have to update my site
09:08:22 [karen]
...so that's how far we go into interoperability
09:08:28 [karen]
...if you operate something you have to do it well
09:08:42 [karen]
...It does not prevent that you have to use open standards
09:08:47 [karen]
Rigo: We had that problem
09:08:55 [karen]
...for a very long time I was lobbying to have laws
09:09:00 [karen]
free online
09:09:09 [karen]
...From Journal Officiel
09:09:13 [karen]
...they got commercial entitty
09:09:22 [karen]
...prepared ready to go database on a military service
09:09:40 [karen]
...and just by doing this they earned 6 million francs per year
09:09:51 [karen]
...If your application doesn't reflect the law
09:09:59 [karen]
...so they must force you to update your stuff
09:10:14 [karen]
Daniel: if not interoperabilty through open standard
09:10:25 [karen]
...one day for another they could switch XML syntax
09:10:31 [karen]
Sandro: So one question
09:10:44 [karen]
...what is the difference between interoperability and open gov't data?
09:10:53 [karen]
Rigo: There is a large overlap
09:10:58 [karen]
Karen: that is a whole other discussion
09:11:12 [karen]
Rigo: Take the UK example of when they released tons of data
09:11:21 [karen]
...they correlated the crime and geolocation data
09:11:24 [karen]
...also complaint data
09:11:29 [karen]
...local mayors and villages
09:11:37 [karen]
...in areas where you had an idiot who complained a lot
09:11:45 [karen]
...the price of your house was half what it was before
09:11:52 [karen]
...because people were thinking it was a bad area
09:11:59 [karen]
...from complaints about noise or theft
09:12:25 [karen]
Roger: in a highly regulated industry, we must provide gov't with a lot of data
09:12:34 [karen]
...mixed up with gov't standards
09:12:43 [karen]
Sandro: A clear definition for interoperabilty
09:13:01 [karen]
Emanuelle: I see it around domains
09:13:18 [karen]
...a certain level of interoperabilty to exchange in a bounded domain
09:13:34 [karen]
...have to define constraints that are domain specific
09:13:41 [karen]
Gautier: there are other issues
09:13:44 [karen]
...like archiving
09:13:47 [karen]
...Private data
09:13:55 [hhalpin]
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09:14:08 [karen]
...you have to have data to think about archiving it, even if not public
09:14:16 [karen]
...yet have to think about archiving issues
09:14:28 [karen]
...have to think about interoperability of data in data preservation
09:14:46 [karen]
Yosueke: We are talking about Interoperabilty Frameworks and Interoperabilty
09:14:58 [karen]
...IF is broader term
09:15:04 [karen]
...covers mapping and procedural aspects
09:15:15 [karen]
...there is also possibility to extend interoperabilty
09:15:22 [karen]
...semantics, culture are different
09:15:28 [karen]
...can exchange data
09:15:39 [karen]
...IF is something will be the premise for
09:15:47 [karen]
...cooperatively working with gov't
09:15:59 [karen]
Daniel: What I have seen in past couple of years
09:16:05 [karen]
...with work TimBL is doing
09:16:08 [karen]
...more on policy side
09:16:14 [karen]
...gov't making data open for free
09:16:25 [karen]
...assumption of geeks is we will make something out of the data
09:16:30 [karen]
...there is a change in spirit
09:16:40 [karen]
...do something useful and we will make sense of it
09:16:48 [karen]
...there is a change I think
09:17:10 [karen]
Vagner: interoperability is more realted to policy, rules, architecture that provide conditions to data exchange or application exchagne
09:17:23 [karen]
...Open data is one way to faiclitate interoperability; not the only way
09:17:38 [karen]
Jim: Looking down stream, I think the term open data
09:17:38 [sandro]
Vagner-br: open data as one way to get interoperablity
09:17:43 [karen]
...is going to lead to problems
09:17:50 [karen]
...may interpret it as public data
09:18:11 [karen]
...in Norway, open public data is what their individual income and taxes are
09:18:26 [karen]
...may not be the same with other gov'ts
09:18:37 [karen]
...we will need to have terminolofy that people will understand clearly
09:18:47 [karen]
...if people around this table are having trouble with distinctions
09:18:54 [karen]
...the legislators and public will have trouble, too
09:18:57 [karen]
Karen: second that
09:19:15 [karen]
Sandro: In the IG note they define open gov't data and public sector info as synonymous
09:19:26 [karen]
Rigo: yes
09:19:31 [karen]
...I would not overload the term
09:19:47 [karen]
...what we mean is this is data that you can get from the gov't without forcing them by court
09:19:57 [karen]
...we can extend in light of Daniel's experience
09:20:04 [karen]
...we may mean it's in digital format
09:20:11 [karen]
...and avoid the paper route
09:20:18 [karen]
...which they are capable of doing
09:20:26 [karen]
...so I think it's what is available publicly
09:20:39 [karen]
Daniel: public sector info is not the same thing as open data
09:20:45 [karen]
Roger: I just did some Google searches
09:20:54 [karen]
...I convinced myself that interoperability framework
09:21:04 [karen]
...does not have a widely accepted defnition
09:21:20 [karen]
...first reference is to the Estonian Interoperability Framework
09:21:34 [karen]
Rigo: That is not surprising; the Estonians and Austrians were the first in this area
09:21:57 [karen]
Roger: suggest that you define it clearly
09:22:02 [karen]
Karen: it means nothing right now
09:22:08 [karen]
Rigo: a catch-all
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09:22:16 [karen]
Daniel: One remark is that eGov activity
09:22:23 [karen]
...reminds of beginning of WAI
09:22:30 [karen]
...it was clear that we needed several groups
09:22:37 [karen]
...Education and Outreach to agree on terms
09:22:45 [karen]
...technical groups, one of access
09:22:55 [karen]
...keep in mind that the education and outreach was one of the first ones
09:23:04 [karen]
...we need to have some kind of group to deal with that task force
09:23:14 [karen]
Sandro: so about five minutes before break
09:23:24 [karen]
...one more slide on interoperability
09:23:32 [karen]
...we have raised many of them
09:23:58 [karen]
...Go quickly through next two
09:24:04 [karen]
4. Multi-channel delivery
09:24:13 [karen]
...providing services through multiple channels
09:24:22 [karen]
...from f2f and phone to web and mobile
09:24:32 [karen]
...issues were about really understanding the requirements of the consumer
09:24:36 [karen]
...mobile devices are limited
09:24:43 [karen]
...coordination of the different channels
09:24:54 [karen]
...so you don't provide different levels of service on different channels
09:24:57 [karen]
...and Accessibilty
09:25:06 [karen]
Fifth Item is Identification and Authentication
09:25:19 [karen]
...allows confidence in transactions
09:25:48 [karen]
...but "lack of coherent analogies to the forms and protocols that have endured for centuries"
09:26:05 [karen]
...notion of fair rsk allocation and risk
09:26:20 [karen]
...gov't may think it controls id authentication but cannot
09:26:28 [karen]
...Finally, next steps
09:26:49 [karen]
...It was an active group at the time document was written
09:27:03 [karen]
...Spirit of enthusiasm to help gov't transition
09:27:08 [karen]
...Focus on Linked Data
09:27:15 [karen]
...and look at data provenance issues
09:27:20 [karen]
...The actual next steps for IG
09:27:24 [karen]
...unless something changes
09:27:32 [karen]
...will run as more low-level
09:27:39 [karen]
...meeting 1 to 2x a month
09:27:45 [karen]
...with speakers; more like a seminar
09:27:52 [karen]
...coming out of these topics
09:28:04 [karen]
...Hoping to get your input on topics
09:28:15 [karen]
...of interest to you; or ones you may be willing to speak about
09:28:25 [karen]
...maybe that will draw a new community and do a new veresion of these reports
09:28:41 [karen]
...Let's take a break in 30 minutes
09:30:29 [karen]
rrsagent, make minutes
09:30:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-egov-minutes.html karen
09:47:33 [karen]
[Break]
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10:14:05 [karen]
We had a lot of interest
10:14:18 [karen]
But when we convened the meetings, nobody came
10:14:29 [karen]
Sandro: It was a surprise for me
10:14:39 [karen]
...working with software developers I had not seen anything like that
10:15:02 [karen]
...what I came to understand is that eGov IG participants are doing all this on their own time
10:15:14 [karen]
...looking for immediate, actionable things
10:15:23 [karen]
...We continued to hold telcons for these groups
10:15:30 [karen]
...but light attendance and petered out
10:15:43 [karen]
...the demo people did some good work
10:15:48 [karen]
...The main group meetings
10:15:59 [karen]
...were every other week
10:16:16 [karen]
...in spring we switched to seminar style meetings
10:16:21 [karen]
...presentations were well attended
10:16:25 [karen]
...first was DCAT
10:16:29 [karen]
...spun off a task force
10:16:34 [karen]
...with an issues list
10:16:40 [karen]
...on hiatus now
10:16:47 [karen]
...Also had a presentation on data.gov.uk
10:17:02 [karen]
...and way to get a linked data for developers familiar with JSON
10:17:14 [karen]
...We had another presentation from NYS legislator group
10:17:24 [karen]
...talking about an initiative about publishing linked data
10:17:29 [karen]
...lively discussion talking through issues
10:17:45 [karen]
...We had one meeting about a public notice system
10:18:00 [karen]
...We are looking to schedule more discussions over the next year, so interested in proposals
10:18:21 [karen]
...Then this idea to have a WG to do Gov't Linked Data
10:18:24 [karen]
...this has been discussed
10:18:28 [karen]
...and there is high interest
10:18:35 [karen]
...we are looking for appropriate chairs
10:18:46 [karen]
...and we will talk about that tomorrow
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10:23:16 [sandro]
Karen_Burns: (introducing self, Karen Myers taking notes on flipchart)
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10:28:31 [sandro]
Rigo_Wenning
10:28:57 [sandro]
Gautier_Poupeau: digital preservation & archving
10:29:07 [sandro]
... the how and why of open data
10:29:54 [sandro]
... help organization understand its place in the ecosystem (the web).
10:31:13 [sandro]
Emmanuelle_Bermes: Library data (public institutions, part of egov data)
10:32:18 [sandro]
ibrahima, you're welcome to come sit at the table, in that open spot.
10:35:34 [sandro]
Yosuke Funahashi, Tomo-Digi Corporation: Emergency Information --- spacial, temporal
10:35:53 [sandro]
.... many earthquakes, many typhoons
10:36:14 [sandro]
... disaster prevention -- most important task of government
10:36:34 [sandro]
... temporal reason; in this group?
10:37:28 [sandro]
... defn of disaster. old defn earthquake, typhoon, etc. evolving definition, including Virus
10:37:57 [sandro]
ralph: how much is about maintaining good records, how much is about real-time recovery
10:39:03 [sandro]
yosuke: three steps -- anticipation and information delivery; 2 govt response info when disaster happens; --- equally important
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10:40:45 [sandro]
ibrahima: at W3C office in Senegal. View of egovt in Senegal is not great; looking for ways to communicate its benefits
10:41:14 [sandro]
... demographic info not well exposed.
10:42:22 [sandro]
Jim_Bell: mostly here to educate myself about this, for AB. Also, HP does a lot of business with gov'ts.
10:43:29 [sandro]
Jim_Bell: at HP, I do industry standards program office (over 500 people), open source program office (3000 people), office of accessibily and aging (all products/serv), ergonomics
10:43:50 [sandro]
... gov'ts are interested in all of these
10:45:11 [sandro]
# Jose Leocadio, SERPRO (Brazilian Federal Agency of Information Technology)
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10:46:20 [sandro]
jose: data cloud, related to privacy and security
10:46:47 [sandro]
Roger Cutler, Chevron [TUESDAY ONLY]
10:55:34 [sandro]
roger: equipment catalogs, for procurement (cf what's on pb blowout preventer)
10:56:06 [sandro]
Vagner Diniz: lack of vocabs
10:57:12 [sandro]
jim bell: very complex public procurement rules
11:00:50 [sandro]
Vagner_Diniz: head of W3C Brazil office
11:02:02 [sandro]
Vagner: Even if gov't publishes data on web, that doesn't mean it will be used. Gov't data may not be interesting, relevant
11:02:52 [sandro]
... translated WG Note to Portuguese, printed 2000 copies
11:03:07 [sandro]
... program on How to Publish open data on the web
11:07:56 [sandro]
Harry Halpin
11:08:15 [sandro]
# David Rogers, Wholesale Applications Community (WAC) [TUESDAY ONLY]
11:10:05 [sandro]
Ralph Swick
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11:13:58 [sandro]
http://www.w3.org/2010/10/five-star/linked_data
11:18:10 [sandro]
robin: apie -- "open data" is something we can sell
11:19:52 [sandro]
agenda+ Do open data, linked open data outreach and advocacy?
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13:16:59 [sandro]
# Bede McCall, MITRE Corporation
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13:17:30 [sandro]
Bede: we look at the govt from inside
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13:19:34 [sandro]
Rigo giving presentation on EU Public Sector Information
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13:22:25 [karen]
Topic: Rigo Wenning Presentation on EU and Privacy
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13:25:49 [sandro]
bede: what if govt puts the service up there?
13:26:12 [sandro]
rigo: would do that if there is on market, or to destroy the govt.
13:26:16 [sandro]
s/govt/market/
13:26:27 [sandro]
s/on market/no market/
13:27:17 [sandro]
bede: US agencies only respond to directives, not requests.
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13:39:25 [sandro]
some discussion of 27bn euro figure for PSI market, footnote to mepsir helm 2006
13:42:55 [sandro]
rigo: BBC documentaries are public sector information, etc.
13:46:06 [sandro]
rigo: ign lyon maps more expensive that getting your own plane and duplicating it yourself.
13:49:01 [karen]
Bede: when you have a normative law
13:49:14 [karen]
when you get to issues like law and regulation
13:49:25 [karen]
there must be some sort of licensing arrangement
13:49:33 [karen]
Rigo: yes, what I know is copyright laws
13:49:42 [karen]
...you cannot create another authoritative version
13:49:46 [karen]
...you can republish
13:49:52 [karen]
...but there is a lot of gray area
13:50:04 [karen]
...huge gap between copyright violation
13:50:11 [karen]
Bede: you don't really copyright laws
13:50:16 [karen]
Rigo: different concepts
13:50:34 [karen]
...in several European countries there is copyright over the law
13:50:50 [karen]
Robin: in France there were constraints; it's about making money
13:51:01 [karen]
Rigo: about norms being stable
13:51:12 [karen]
TimBL: I would suggest it has nothing to do with copyright
13:51:18 [karen]
...if it says this is the law
13:51:22 [karen]
...and you change it, you are lying
13:51:27 [karen]
...if you said this is what Congress passed
13:51:38 [sandro]
tim: this is about fraud, not copyright, if you re-publish the law changed
13:51:45 [karen]
...if you take off this is what Congress passed and what I proposed in the EU, that should be ok
13:51:54 [karen]
Bede: your opinion of the law is welcome
13:52:08 [karen]
...but what I was getting at was the business of why the gov't would want to license laws and regulation
13:52:17 [karen]
DanielD: the gov't license I got
13:52:35 [karen]
...was committing myself to update data and conform with their format
13:52:42 [karen]
Bede: so a contractual obligation
13:52:49 [karen]
Daniel: yes, a kind of license
13:52:55 [karen]
Bede: So if you put this information online
13:52:59 [karen]
...is that general access?
13:53:05 [karen]
Daniel: If I put it on source and date
13:53:18 [karen]
Bede: as a licensee you are held responsible
13:53:23 [karen]
Daniel: yes, for updating my source
13:53:41 [karen]
Bede: I made a copy of someone's database and made a few changes to exclude myself
13:53:47 [karen]
...Is that source responsible then?
13:53:54 [karen]
Daniel: Would be a different kind of license
13:54:09 [karen]
...the license I read (earlier today) I would have to change it so you use the right one
13:54:17 [karen]
...I update as my source data, then I don't think I have to do it
13:54:30 [karen]
Bede: so you have publicly available info on the Web
13:54:37 [karen]
...so what happens when someone makes a copy of that
13:54:45 [karen]
...potential to change the substance of the law
13:54:51 [karen]
Sandro: in several different contexts
13:55:02 [karen]
...I have seen demand for gov't data to be clearly labeled
13:55:12 [karen]
...I think of these problems being solved by labeling
13:55:15 [karen]
...but may not be enough
13:55:22 [karen]
...may need signature on a document
13:55:29 [karen]
Daniel: you may not be able to change it
13:55:42 [karen]
...can I augment the database if i add new info
13:55:51 [karen]
...how legal is that depends upon the license
13:55:59 [karen]
Rigo: It is difficult to write a sensible license
13:56:04 [karen]
...things that are supposed to be normative
13:56:09 [karen]
...there is a need for protection
13:56:16 [karen]
...some of it is assumed by just the legal system
13:56:27 [karen]
...and you don't see it anyway; this is partly the case in France
13:56:39 [karen]
...In the German case you can copy and distribute as you want but cannot change it
13:56:42 [karen]
...for all normative rule things
13:56:55 [karen]
...If you could change it, you would be the new principal in town to rule in a certain area
13:57:05 [karen]
...for other factual data, this is not needed
13:57:10 [karen]
TimBL: if you could change it
13:57:29 [karen]
...if someone takes a W3C spec and publish as someone different, they are not a new game in town
13:57:48 [karen]
...you cannot be a new Parliament just by changing the laws and publishing
13:57:59 [karen]
Rigo: If I change words and cal it a law
13:58:07 [karen]
...and publish it then I violate
13:58:21 [karen]
TimBL: has to do with the rule of law and the type of constitution you are under
13:58:26 [karen]
Rigo: One way of making sure
13:58:37 [karen]
...that the principal is only one creating those laws
13:58:42 [karen]
...you can have an opinion
13:58:47 [karen]
...and you can say this is how it would look
13:58:51 [karen]
Bede: that's fine
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13:58:59 [karen]
Rigo: But to say it's the new law or new spec, you cannot
13:59:06 [karen]
...but in some countries it's organized by copyright
13:59:19 [karen]
...if you do that, it's an aggressive act that could trigger military action
13:59:26 [karen]
Gautier: Not just the core aspect
13:59:32 [karen]
...there is a psychological aspect
13:59:39 [karen]
...a license can be a comfort to people
13:59:42 [karen]
...to help to expose their data
13:59:44 [karen]
...it's mine
13:59:53 [karen]
...with a license we can say, your project, your data
13:59:57 [sandro]
Gautier: not the just a juridical concept
13:59:58 [karen]
...no problem, you can expose
14:00:01 [karen]
...I think we don't
14:00:06 [karen]
...we have to keep in mind this aspect
14:00:17 [karen]
...I think it very important to comfort people in order to expose data
14:00:28 [karen]
...a license can help them not to be worried about that
14:00:34 [karen]
Daniel: You mean a user of the system?
14:00:38 [karen]
...or programmer?
14:00:46 [karen]
Gautier: I think about manager on the gov't side
14:00:52 [karen]
Daniel: yes on of the fears about losing control
14:00:55 [sandro]
Gautier: license helps the managers in the govt feel better about the system
14:00:57 [karen]
Gautier: it's a good way
14:01:10 [karen]
Daniel: I understand that the gov't asks me to update the source
14:01:19 [karen]
...but to ask me to maintain the data format is far-fetched
14:01:29 [karen]
Rigo: In Europe, not US yet but discussing,
14:01:33 [karen]
...is the right on data bases
14:01:36 [karen]
...if you have a data base
14:01:40 [karen]
...it is protected as such
14:01:45 [karen]
...again a question for the licensing
14:01:54 [karen]
...if public sector is giving out this data for free
14:02:07 [karen]
...how do we protect from private companies taking a copy of the data
14:02:14 [karen]
...and prohibit others from doing things with it
14:02:27 [karen]
...a very interesting question on how to create licensing to prevent it from happening
14:02:32 [karen]
...So we come back to the charging
14:02:44 [karen]
...where it's only triggered if you have a substantial investment into the database
14:02:52 [karen]
Bede: Something like a GPL to solve it
14:02:56 [karen]
...it's a viral license
14:03:07 [karen]
Rigo: the viral thing bites you when you have a commercial company doing the product
14:03:12 [karen]
Bede: Format issue there
14:03:17 [karen]
Rigo: Can you separate that?
14:03:20 [karen]
...interesting discussions
14:03:27 [karen]
Gautier: If you want to make an open system
14:03:33 [karen]
...you cannot have a license like GPL
14:03:39 [karen]
...what is the role?
14:03:47 [karen]
...to make an ecosystem with eGov data
14:04:03 [karen]
...you need to have a world wide license
14:04:07 [karen]
Bede: Statements of law
14:04:22 [karen]
Gautier: two different things; the data and the code
14:04:35 [karen]
Rigo: If you use this virally infected data in your code
14:04:40 [karen]
...you have people shying away
14:04:44 [karen]
Bede: So I understand
14:04:57 [karen]
...Just thinking of a way to cover the content, the substance of law is about this
14:05:02 [karen]
Rigo: ok
14:05:31 [karen]
Rigo: What I want to say is that W3C is talking with EU on a high level
14:05:40 [karen]
...public sector data is high on their agenda
14:05:54 [karen]
...would like to see the private sector to do useful stuff with it
14:06:04 [karen]
...This will trigger all these other discussion
14:06:11 [karen]
...We need to create a venue for this
14:06:26 [karen]
...globally and agree to matching interoperability
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14:06:31 [karen]
Bede: What would W3C's role be in that?
14:06:39 [karen]
...policy, engineering?
14:06:55 [karen]
Rigo: we are as a platform pretty neutral
14:06:59 [karen]
...second thing is culture of W3C
14:07:19 [karen]
...you leave your political hat outside and focus more on the technology engineering
14:07:27 [karen]
...this culture that makes agreements on this level
14:07:32 [karen]
...is much easier than if you go by the UN
14:07:43 [karen]
Bede: But the gov't is still free to ignore you
14:07:54 [karen]
...So what do you say what W3C's opinion is about these topics
14:08:04 [karen]
Rigo: I think our Director has an opinion on this
14:08:11 [karen]
...regarding data.gov.uk
14:08:25 [karen]
...There is some unspoken agreement in this room that this is a good thing to pursue
14:08:37 [karen]
Bede: true; but what do you tell these gov't people?
14:08:53 [karen]
Rigo: we shoult at them, "raw data now" [laughs]
14:09:04 [karen]
Daniel: The are using us as an ally
14:09:17 [karen]
...enemy is the bureaucracy and the fear
14:09:22 [karen]
Bede: But what is your story
14:09:34 [karen]
...you guys say we should share information, but where do we start?
14:09:50 [karen]
Thomas: We have not only been shouting, "raw data now" but "data well done"
14:09:53 [karen]
...and then link them
14:09:57 [karen]
...the five store story
14:10:11 [karen]
...start with raw data and agree on formats first
14:10:23 [karen]
...and drive public sector information
14:10:31 [karen]
...so that's where a W3C Working Group
14:10:44 [karen]
...could agree upon the ontologies and vocabularies where they make sense
14:10:53 [karen]
...that is our story in Brussels recently
14:10:59 [karen]
Rigo: You are invited to shout, too
14:11:05 [karen]
...there is a survey going on right now
14:11:11 [Vagner-br]
s/store/stars
14:11:12 [karen]
...encourage you to fill it out online
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14:11:42 [karen]
Rigo: Add link to eGov wiki page
14:11:51 [karen]
TimBL: one of messages that is hard to get
14:11:55 [karen]
...is about picking your battles
14:12:03 [karen]
...Semantic Web framework helps to do that
14:12:27 [karen]
...Understand it's an investment that will get a larger return
14:13:06 [karen]
Bede: on-going issue is toward creating a common schema to cover all gov't data
14:13:11 [karen]
...we had one agency try to do that
14:14:29 [karen]
TimBL describes one CIO's need for common reporting for one area
14:14:43 [karen]
Rigo: We are talking with EU Commission on a high level
14:14:53 [karen]
...We expect to do more work on Linked Data
14:15:36 [darobin]
I didn't see this link pushed here, so in case it wasn't: http://ec.europa.eu/yourvoice/ipm/forms/dispatch?form=psidirective2010
14:15:38 [karen]
Sandro: Our next break is in 15 minutes; we have two more hours
14:15:46 [darobin]
that's the EU's public consultation on PSI
14:15:52 [karen]
...I would like to read through the agenda items and get a read
14:16:01 [karen]
...on what people want to continue discussing
14:16:08 [karen]
...Open data keeps coming up
14:16:12 [karen]
...Tomorrow is about linked data
14:16:18 [karen]
...So we could talk about open data today
14:16:24 [karen]
Daniel: Where do you place data?
14:16:52 [karen]
...need to know what kind of data is being talked about
14:16:55 [karen]
...all this naming of things
14:17:05 [karen]
Sandro: I tend to deal with this mostly in the LD context
14:17:30 [karen]
Daniel: the naming part is important
14:17:40 [karen]
...not sure if any organization is working on public sector naming
14:17:50 [karen]
...I would think there is 80% that would be common
14:18:05 [karen]
Sandro: In US there is an initiative from NIEM that addresses some of that in XML
14:18:23 [karen]
Sandro: we also talked about Cloud computing; Open Source and Open Standards
14:18:34 [karen]
..Interoperability and Interoperability Frameworks
14:18:43 [karen]
...Vocabularies and Open Data
14:18:46 [karen]
...Identity
14:18:59 [karen]
Gautier: another topic about eGov education and outreach
14:19:16 [karen]
...we are all convinced but how do we convince others?
14:19:27 [karen]
...It is very important to have a W3C perspective
14:19:37 [karen]
...and to help us to evangelize
14:19:46 [karen]
Daniel: related to eGov outreach is the organizational side
14:20:02 [karen]
...Would be to do more than one WG; would need more funding and investment
14:20:23 [karen]
Sandro: Structure of a larger eGov initiative
14:20:57 [karen]
Voting on topics
14:21:12 [karen]
1. Social media in Gov't - 0
14:21:19 [karen]
2. Mobile access to gov't services -0
14:21:29 [karen]
3. Open Gov't data - 6
14:21:42 [karen]
Vagner: I can present cases here is you want
14:21:47 [karen]
4. Cloud computing - 0
14:22:00 [karen]
5. Open Source and Open Standards - 0
14:22:19 [karen]
6. Interoperability and Interop Frameworks - 0
14:22:28 [karen]
7. Vocabularies - 5
14:23:02 [karen]
8. Identity - 5
14:23:10 [karen]
9. eGov outreach - 6
14:23:21 [karen]
10. eGov Initiative at W3C - 2
14:23:25 [karen]
Combine 10 with 9
14:24:00 [karen]
Sandro: we can combine top choices
14:24:07 [karen]
...take shorter break
14:24:20 [karen]
...back at 3:50 sharp start
14:24:29 [sandro]
BREAK
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14:29:17 [karen]
Sandro: Let's start with Education and Outreach;
14:29:31 [karen]
Identity; Open Data
14:29:40 [karen]
Rest of day discussion topics
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15:29:13 [sandro]
topic: Open Gov't Data
15:29:24 [sandro]
# Review Publishing Open Government Data
15:29:24 [sandro]
# dcat, ckan, open knowledge foundation (?)
15:29:24 [sandro]
# Connections to POI WG, Provenance XG
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Rigo: What about geography in provenance.... firewalls
15:30:12 [sandro]
bede: Internal to govts -- provenance is very hot.
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16:03:58 [emma]
Harry Halpin is presenting Identity issues
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16:11:55 [MacTed]
karen, can you resume scribing? or someone else, please?
16:12:31 [MacTed]
RRSAgent, pointer?
16:12:31 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-egov-irc#T16-12-31
16:14:54 [emma]
Discussing security levels in Identity in different countries EU vs. US, others
16:17:08 [sandro]
brazil: no, just a plan for electronic passpaorts.
16:19:48 [sandro]
japan: no, japanese citizens are very resistant to being treated as "numbers" by the gov't
16:20:29 [emma]
Harry H. : people of this group interested in a workshop on requirements for identity ?
16:20:59 [rigo]
currently discussing identity schemes
16:21:15 [rigo]
have looked at US initiatives
16:21:50 [rigo]
then to EU intiatives like EID and www.eid-stork.eu
16:22:00 [rigo]
then talking about identity solutions in Japan
16:22:33 [rigo]
suggestion about a workshop in identity (to be held in Berlin around April) was well received
16:23:10 [rigo]
DD: IG scope charter, education & outreach is in scope
16:23:11 [emma]
Topic: Education & outreach
16:23:19 [rigo]
...there is work in this area, but how to organize
16:23:27 [rigo]
...not one person doing everything
16:23:41 [rigo]
SH: was part of the charter and haven' t done it
16:24:39 [emma]
Rigo: gov'ts want knowledge from W3C on how this technology works
16:24:54 [emma]
...and have funding issues
16:25:30 [emma]
... govts face a chicken & egg problem
16:27:30 [emma]
...need for shared financing at international level
16:28:04 [sandro]
rigo: Much easier for govts to send us people than money. Get them to send people, with travel budgets.
16:34:56 [rigo]
still problem to get the resources for work in the identity space
16:36:48 [rigo]
dues are not an issue, showing up and getting people involved is tricky
16:37:36 [rigo]
issue is to get a budget that persists for more than a fiscal year
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