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15:12:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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15:12:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 98765
15:12:22 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see INC_PROVXG()11:00AM scheduled to start 12 minutes ago
15:12:23 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Incubator Group Teleconference
15:12:23 <trackbot> Date: 29 October 2010
15:12:24 <YolandaGil> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Telecons#Scribing_for_the_Provenance_XG_Group
15:13:09 <DGarijo> Yolanda: asking about the sections of the final report: size, wirk done, etc
15:13:58 <DGarijo> James: maybe copy paste first, and then refine it
15:14:09 <pgroth> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-prov/2010Oct/0038.html
15:14:21 <pgroth> chair: Yolanda Gil
15:14:25 <pgroth> Scribe: dgarijo
15:14:33 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public
15:15:26 <DGarijo> James: any volunteers for helping in Business Contract Scenario?
15:15:48 <pgroth> james, just ping me if you need anything
15:16:22 <DGarijo> James: It's all there, just have to write it down.
15:16:42 <DGarijo> Yolanda: focus on the gap analysis
15:17:17 <DGarijo> Yolanda: Should the vocabulary mappings be part of the roadmap or the soa?
15:17:47 <ssahoo2> Some parts of the mapping can be referenced in the "State of the Art"?
15:17:53 <DGarijo> Yolanda: It's worth mention it in the soa at least.
15:18:25 <ssahoo2> I can work with you on that James
15:18:40 <DGarijo> I can offer my help too.
15:19:13 <DGarijo> James: What should be there? and who should write it?
15:19:46 <DGarijo> Simon: Roadmap
15:19:58 <DGarijo> Simon: 2-3 pages long
15:21:08 <DGarijo> Simon: 4 parts: When/what reccomendations become real, when are the technological requirements,  and the when we think that  use cases become  feasible.
15:22:24 <DGarijo> Paulo: Read all the use cases and done some classification according to the use cases and domain
15:23:06 <DGarijo> Yolanda: the focus should be the scenarios, not the use cases
15:23:25 <pgroth> I like the domain idea
15:24:02 <DGarijo> Paulo: Still need to figure out, make draft and send it to the group for feedback?
15:24:32 <DGarijo> Paulo: We need a justification about why these use cases.
15:24:38 <DGarijo> *scenarios
15:24:55 <YolandaGil> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Use_Cases#Exemplifying_Provenance_Dimensions_with_Use_Cases
15:25:31 <DGarijo> Yolanda: they were based on the groupings we made of provenance
15:26:15 <DGarijo> Paulo: are the prov domensions described before the scenarios
15:26:21 <DGarijo> Paulo: ?
15:27:04 <DGarijo> Yolanda: We described the dimension as we described the requirements
15:27:32 <DGarijo> Yolanda: having the dimensions first is hard to describe
15:27:45 <DGarijo> Paulo: Who is going to describe the dimensions?
15:28:09 <DGarijo> Yolanda: maybe the dimensions should be in the requirements section
15:28:57 <DGarijo> Paulo: how deep does the dimension need to be in the use cases?
15:29:01 <pgroth> +q
15:29:06 <DGarijo> Yolanda: No need to name them.
15:29:34 <DGarijo> Yolanda: the dimension will be on the user requirements
15:29:36 <DGarijo> Paulo: OK
15:29:45 <DGarijo> Yolanda: size?
15:29:51 <DGarijo> Paulo: 3 pages
15:29:58 <jcheney> can we put size estimates in wiki?
15:30:13 <DGarijo> Paul: Really like the idea of using domain motivation.
15:30:34 <DGarijo> Paul: You don't need to motivate why you have the scenario
15:30:40 <pgroth> q-
15:30:49 <DGarijo> Paul: happy to put the dimensions on the requirements section
15:30:56 <DGarijo> Yolanda: November 12 is our target
15:31:24 <YolandaGil> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/BibBase_Collection
15:31:38 <YolandaGil> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/MendeleyCollection
15:32:17 <ssahoo2> Daniel: Discussing the bibliography work
15:34:54 <pgroth> +q
15:35:33 <DGarijo> Paul: Nice to have both
15:35:44 <pgroth> q-
15:36:57 <YolandaGil> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Provenance_and_Web_Architecture
15:37:11 <DGarijo> Yolanda : we will keep both. Bibbase frozen and Mendeley to add new entries
15:37:23 <DGarijo> Yolanda: move to architecture in Provenance
15:38:11 <DGarijo> Yolanda: Olaf, Luc, Paul and Yolanda working there.
15:38:43 <DGarijo> Yolanda: Luc 's presentation.
15:39:10 <DGarijo> Luc: interesting to know what kind of feedback can we obtain from w3c
15:39:51 <DGarijo> Luc: 5 prov situations/ use cases for provenance
15:40:14 <DGarijo> Yolanda: presentation which introduces all the group has done
15:40:40 <DGarijo> Yolanda: separated the slides about web architecture issues
15:41:25 <DGarijo> Luc: Has a brainstorm to start with some ideas
15:41:59 <DGarijo> Luc: our goal was to get feedback from w3c also.
15:42:14 <DGarijo> Luc: looked at the http response pattern. 
15:43:00 <DGarijo> Luc: some slides about prov in ws
15:43:54 <DGarijo> Luc: Communication pattern. Some prov info included in the answer
15:44:19 <DGarijo> Luc: different of passing prov information: by values and by reference
15:44:41 <DGarijo> Luc: A bit of overhead because some prov can be big
15:45:08 <DGarijo> Luc: the server has to keep the provenance for dynamic resources-> problematic
15:45:22 <DGarijo> Luc: ways to insert provenance: http header
15:46:01 <DGarijo> Luc: multipart messages. Content and provenance in 2 separate parts.
15:46:14 <DGarijo> Luc: RDF-a in html documents
15:46:34 <DGarijo> Luc: in pdf, support for metadata that can be used too
15:47:16 <DGarijo> Luc: Metrics of possibilities: inserting in the message, the content downloaded, by value, by reference. 
15:47:57 <DGarijo> Luc : Provenance negotiation between client and server for identifying which representation should be returned.
15:48:25 <DGarijo> Luc: Provenance services out there: Times/Third parties
15:48:58 <DGarijo> Luc: Different versions of provenance and accounts is interesting too
15:49:33 <DGarijo> Luc: Leverage to use SPARQL instead of creating a new lenguage for wuerying
15:49:56 <DGarijo> Luc: Important to reuse what is there
15:50:52 <DGarijo> Luc: General comment: People very impressed with the presentation
15:51:22 <DGarijo> Luc: The ideas were very compatible with what they were thinking
15:51:43 <DGarijo> Yolanda: We have clarified the idea of provenance
15:51:43 <Paulo> q+
15:53:02 <DGarijo> Luc: First question they had: they felt that not necessary to have a prov field but a metadata field
15:53:30 <DGarijo> Luc: Functionality which will be provenance specific?
15:53:54 <DGarijo> Luc: Another point raised: Provenance may have provenance 
15:54:17 <DGarijo> Luc: Little discussion about passing it by value
15:54:39 <DGarijo> Luc: question about long term prov services.
15:54:47 <ssahoo2> I think provenance of provenance issue can be decided by the requirements of the application
15:55:04 <DGarijo> Luc: What if the domain is moved. How do we find our prov?
15:55:11 <pgroth> yeah agree satya
15:55:24 <pgroth> it grounds out somewhere
15:55:35 <DGarijo> The DC Metadata Task group is working about provenance metadata also
15:55:47 <pgroth> that's what we said on the call. and tim seemed to agree
15:56:15 <DGarijo> Luc: Metadata framework to make prov available
15:56:34 <jcheney> q+
15:57:05 <ssahoo2> sounds like an interesting discussion, I would have been interested in attending this call with W3C! 
15:57:42 <DGarijo> Yolanda: Some people would prefer xml
15:58:22 <DGarijo> Yolanda: we should try to maybe think about designing or coming up with a vocabulary rather an ontology
15:58:51 <DGarijo> Luc: Many of us believe that provenance is more than a vocabulary
15:59:47 <ssahoo2> I agree with Luc - vocabulary or ontology has its own cost vs. benefits and both should be available to provenance users
15:59:48 <DGarijo> Paulo: These work is the kind of work done with PML group
16:01:00 <DGarijo> Paulo: Very happy to see all the presentations. Value or reference-> preferable by refrence beacuse is more lightweith
16:01:10 <DGarijo> Paulo: Distributed provenance
16:01:29 <DGarijo> Luc: It is one of the questions
16:02:04 <DGarijo> Yolanda: In slide 2 there are 5 situations, and situation 3 may be useful for this.
16:02:35 <DGarijo> Paulo: Key to know who is using the data
16:02:48 <jcheney> i just got cut off...
16:03:21 <DGarijo> Paulo: one of the major attractions for many people to use provenance
16:03:23 <pgroth> what was your question james?
16:03:33 <jcheney> i'm back.
16:03:39 <jcheney> just wanted to address the version issue:
16:03:49 <DGarijo> ah, yes please!
16:04:28 <Luc> This presentation is not about OPM!
16:04:37 <DGarijo> Paulo: Presentation helps to align pml and opm
16:05:05 <DGarijo> Paulo: We do it at the server level, not at the http level
16:06:00 <DGarijo> Yolanda: continue this conversation next Friday
16:06:41 <DGarijo> Yolanda: wiki page to continue the discussion too
16:07:06 <DGarijo> Yolanda: extend the wikipage adding the minutes and bring up some ideas
16:07:36 <DGarijo> James: The versioning issue. There is a group called Memento
16:07:37 <jcheney> memento (http://www.mementoweb.org/) is already starting to address versioning
16:08:20 <DGarijo> paulo?
16:08:53 <DGarijo> yolanda, should i do anything to save all?
16:10:14 <DGarijo> rrsagent, set log public
16:10:30 <DGarijo> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:10:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/29-prov-xg-minutes.html DGarijo
16:10:48 <DGarijo> trackbot, end telcon
16:10:48 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:10:49 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
16:10:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:10:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/29-prov-xg-minutes.html trackbot
16:10:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:10:51 <RRSAgent> I see no action items