IRC log of ua on 2010-10-28

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16:51:27 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-ua-irc
16:51:29 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:51:29 [Zakim]
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Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
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ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
16:51:32 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:51:32 [trackbot]
Date: 28 October 2010
16:51:43 [JAllan]
chair: Jim_Allan
16:51:55 [JAllan]
regrets+kford
16:58:18 [Greg]
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17:01:01 [Jan]
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WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
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+Greg
17:01:44 [Jan]
zakim, code?
17:01:44 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Jan
17:01:59 [Zakim]
+??P2
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17:02:13 [Jan]
zakim, ??P2 is really Jan
17:02:13 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
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+jallan
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+Jeanne
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17:06:32 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Review completed action items Agenda+ Issues (resolving) Agenda+ Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html Agenda+ November F2F - stop expanding the universe, tying up loose ends. assigning sections, review outstanding issues/actions needs, emails, pseudo-actions, etc Agenda+ Action Item Review
17:06:53 [JAllan]
zakim, close item 1
17:06:53 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Review completed action items Agenda+ Issues (resolving) Agenda+ Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG
17:06:55 [Zakim]
... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html Agenda+ November F2F - stop expanding the universe, tying up loose ends. assigning sections, review
17:07:00 [Zakim]
... outstanding issues/actions needs, emails, pseudo-actions, etc Agenda+ Action Item Review, closed
17:07:03 [Zakim]
I see nothing remaining on the agenda
17:07:18 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Review completed action items
17:07:22 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Issues (resolving)
17:07:29 [Zakim]
+??P5
17:07:42 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html
17:07:46 [Jan]
zakim, ??P5 is really MarkH
17:07:46 [Zakim]
+MarkH; got it
17:07:54 [JAllan]
Agenda+ November F2F - stop expanding the universe, tying up loose ends. assigning sections, review outstanding issues/actions needs, emails, pseudo-actions, etc
17:08:13 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Action Item Review
17:08:15 [Zakim]
+Kim_Patch
17:09:39 [JAllan]
regrets+GRosmaita
17:10:09 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda?
17:10:09 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:10:10 [Zakim]
2. Review completed action items [from JAllan]
17:10:11 [Zakim]
3. Issues (resolving) [from JAllan]
17:10:13 [Zakim]
4. Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html [from JAllan]
17:10:16 [Zakim]
5. November F2F - stop expanding the universe, tying up loose ends. assigning sections, review outstanding issues/actions needs, emails, pseudo-actions, etc [from JAllan]
17:10:19 [Zakim]
6. Action Item Review [from JAllan]
17:11:58 [Greg]
zakim, open item 2
17:11:58 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Review completed action items" taken up [from JAllan]
17:12:02 [JAllan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0032.html
17:13:01 [JAllan]
ACTION-41 [1]: Draft a proposal for printing including the 3 concepts --do not lose information, honor author print css, scale font size of print
17:14:17 [Greg]
3.10.x Print Viewport (Level AA)
17:14:19 [Greg]
When the content of any viewport is rendered to a print viewport
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(e.g., physical piece of paper) (Level AA):
17:14:22 [Greg]
(a) all visual information present in the originating viewport is retained, and
17:14:24 [Greg]
(b) authored CSS print properties are honored, and
17:14:26 [Greg]
(c) the user has the option to scale and reflow the original content
17:14:27 [Greg]
to maintain readability of content that would otherwise exceed the
17:14:29 [Greg]
physical print page dimensions if rendered exactly as displayed on
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screen.
17:14:32 [Greg]
Intent of Success Criterion 3.10.x:
17:14:34 [Greg]
When a user chooses to render Web content to a print viewport, there
17:14:35 [Greg]
should be no loss of visual information in the printed rendering. If
17:14:37 [Greg]
the author specifies CSS Print properties for the content, those
17:14:38 [Greg]
properties will be honored when the content is rendered to the printed
17:14:40 [Greg]
page. The user may increase the font size of Web content to improve
17:14:42 [Greg]
readability and has the option to scale and reflow the content on the
17:14:43 [Greg]
resulting printed page.
17:14:45 [Greg]
Examples of Success Criterion 3.10.x :
17:14:46 [Greg]
A user with low vision is reading an online newspaper with the
17:14:48 [Greg]
assistance of a screen magnifier and wishes to make a print copy of an
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article so that they may continue reading while on the commuter train.
17:14:51 [Greg]
The user selects the large print option on their browser's print
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dialog to create an easy to read print version. The resulting print
17:14:54 [Greg]
version uses increases the default font size to 16pts and reflows the
17:14:56 [Greg]
content so that it fits the page width.
17:16:24 [mhakkinen]
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17:16:33 [JAllan]
gl: need clarification. example, in the print dialog, the user has a large print dialog. can't expect the UA to have a setting for every accessibility need, now we have font family, css, etc.
17:16:57 [JAllan]
scribe: Greg
17:17:15 [Greg]
Greg questions the example saying the Print dialog would have a size option, but not sure it's reasonable to have the print dialog have every accessibility option that is available in normal views.
17:18:32 [Greg]
Yan points out that the examples uses pt size, while usually it's specified in relative sizes (e.g. "larger").
17:18:44 [JAllan]
s/Yan/Jan
17:20:04 [Greg]
Jan, A says all information in originating viewport is retained, but layout is visual information, and if scaling and reflowing changes that, is that contradicting the SC?
17:20:42 [Greg]
Jim points out that often tables and the like are truncated at the edge of the page.
17:21:13 [Greg]
Mark admits that scaling and reflow may not work in all cases, or may require printing across multiple pages.
17:21:55 [Greg]
Jan: did the work on standardizing "reflowable content" ever get done?
17:23:02 [jeanne]
thank you for completing this action item, Mark. It is good to have a loose end tied up.
17:23:24 [Greg]
Jan suggests introducing here the concept of reflowable vs. non-reflowable content, the latter taking up as many pages as necessary.
17:23:29 [JAllan]
+1 to Jan
17:24:33 [Greg]
Kim: printing is very important for people with RSI, who often prefer to read and edit on paper.
17:24:34 [JAllan]
" reflowable content, meaning that the text display can be optimized for the particular display device. " from www.msrinfotech.com/services.html
17:25:46 [Greg]
Greg: In our discussion, though, we're talking about not only for different display devices but also for different user preferences (e.g. font size).
17:26:46 [JAllan]
definition: reflowable text
17:26:47 [JAllan]
In a word processor, text editor or online publishing system, the ability to automatically wrap words in a document to the next line as the user changes the window size and thereby relocates the right margin of the page. http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/reflowable+text
17:29:02 [Greg]
Greg: wonders if print output is one case of a more general situation of reformatting output for another device, such as "burning" to a static recording of synthesized speech.
17:30:03 [Greg]
Kim: users often have to do a lot of work on the document to get it to print correctly, which is more problem for users with RSI.
17:30:31 [Greg]
General agreement to add the new SC, with details to be ironed out later.
17:32:08 [Greg]
Greg: Mark, consider that often print style sheets intentionally and appropriately hide some information that isn't appropriate in print (e.g. highlights of links, ads, background bitmaps). That conflicts with (a) in the draft SC.
17:33:12 [Greg]
Jan: Some visual information that is always lost in print is video. Questions whether (a) is appropriate and necessary at all.
17:34:21 [Greg]
Jim: Mark will work on it offline.
17:35:14 [JAllan]
Action-460 jallan to discuss EVD2 & 3 - add to IER to 4.9 SC or create new SC, also review CC2,3,4
17:35:27 [JAllan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0034.html
17:36:19 [Greg]
Jim: Reviewed media accessibility document to see if anything needs to be added to UAAG.
17:37:05 [Greg]
Greg: Mark and Jim, with Greg's help for a bit, drafted proposal for the SC on track manipulation.
17:37:15 [JAllan]
Proposal: add ED information to 4.9.8 track manipulation - Intent/Example/Resources add to IER, use case - author created the ED as a separate track, then user can select the ED track. 4.9.8 Track Enable/Disable of Time-Based Media: During time-based media playback, the user can determine which tracks are available and select or deselect tracks. These selections may override global default...
17:37:17 [JAllan]
...settings for captions, audio descriptions, etc. Intent: Authors are able to create time-based media with video (perhaps multiple video tracks), multiple audio tracks ( e.g. different languages, video description, extended video description), and multiple caption tracks (e.g. different languages, text of video description, text of extended video description). Users should be able to...
17:37:19 [JAllan]
...identify and select from the available tracks. The user may also change their selections. The user agent must provide a mechanism to list the available author supplied tracks and allow the user to select which to play. Examples: Jose, a student with a hearing disability, sometimes misses parts of the dialog in movies because of the sound level or background noise. He can select the...
17:37:21 [JAllan]
...caption track to read the dialog and not miss anything. Lin, who is blind, cannot see all of the action in suspense movies. She can select the video description track in addition to the audio track, to hear the action and scenes described during the movie and not miss out on the suspense. Mary has an learning and attention problem. She needs more elaborate descriptions of what is...
17:37:25 [JAllan]
...happening in a movie of a science demonstration. The author provided extended descriptions for specific concepts. When Mary selects the extended descriptions the video pauses, while extra audio information about the concept is presented. The author also provided a caption track to go along with the extended descriptions so Mary can read along with the audio and focus on reading and...
17:37:31 [JAllan]
...listening to the content. Resources: HTML 5 Video Element http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/video.html#video
17:40:29 [Greg]
Greg: Minor, in Jose change "select the caption track to read the dialog" to "select the caption track to be displayed so that he can read the dialog".
17:41:01 [Greg]
Greg: To example might add parentheticals with the technical terms such as "(closed captions)" and "(video descriptions)".
17:43:08 [Greg]
Jan: In the Mary example, clarify that the author-provided extended captions includes pauses, rather than the video player doing the pausing.
17:45:36 [Greg]
Jim: the extended video descriptions feature in the media requirements document was considered for UAAG, but we decided it was inappropriate to require or recommend it until a standard exists and/or it is implemented in a few user agents.
17:46:31 [Greg]
Kim: Remember there may be extensions that implement a feature even if it's not built into any user agents directly.
17:47:19 [Jan]
Idea: Mary has a learning and attention problem. She needs more elaborate descriptions of what is happening in a movie of a science demonstration. Mary selects the author-supplied extended description audio track for which the video pauses for extended descriptions of specific concepts. Mary also selects the author-supplied extended description caption track to go along with the extended...
17:47:20 [Jan]
...description audio track so that she can read along with the audio and focus on reading and listening to the content.
17:48:15 [Greg]
Greg: using extensions is true in general, but in this particular case it's less appropriate because it really requires a new standard for captions/video description or new features in such a standard.
17:48:59 [Greg]
Discussion of how to get ideas to students or volunteers who might create user agent extensions to implement features we need to see tried.
17:50:06 [Greg]
Jeanne: it is likely that in the near future an official process for that will exist.
17:51:30 [Greg]
Kim: for our group to keep track of things as issues it could be easier to pull them out when we talk with potential implementers.
17:54:56 [JAllan]
Action-460 part 2 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0035.html
17:56:54 [JAllan]
Proposal NEW SC
17:56:56 [JAllan]
4.9.12 Persistence of time-based media content. The UA should provide
17:56:57 [JAllan]
a mechanism to allow time-based content to persist beyond the
17:56:59 [JAllan]
author-specified duration. (AA or AAA)
17:57:00 [JAllan]
Intent of Success Criterion 4.9.12:
17:57:02 [JAllan]
During playback of time-based media, some content, such as captions
17:57:03 [JAllan]
or hyperlinked hotspots, may appear and disappear along the authored
17:57:05 [JAllan]
timeline. Users, for example those with visual or learning
17:57:06 [JAllan]
disabilities, may require additional time to read or interact with the
17:57:08 [JAllan]
content which exceeds the authored presentation time. The UA should
17:57:09 [JAllan]
provide a mechanism that allows the user extend the presentation
17:57:11 [JAllan]
duration of time-based content so that it persists beyond the authored
17:57:13 [JAllan]
time interval.
17:57:15 [JAllan]
notes for examples
17:57:16 [JAllan]
gap-less. authored timeline - caption appears from 1-3 seconds,
17:57:18 [JAllan]
another caption does not appear until 4 seconds. normally, the caption
17:57:20 [JAllan]
would disappear for one second. The user can specify through some
17:57:21 [JAllan]
setting that the caption stays on the screen until the next caption
17:57:23 [JAllan]
replaces it.
17:57:25 [JAllan]
ex 1 gapless captions, ex 2 transient hyperlinks, ex 3 scrolling
17:57:26 [JAllan]
transcript ex 4, paused caption presentation
17:57:28 [JAllan]
2. hyperlinks would persist until next caption (gapless) to give time
17:57:30 [JAllan]
to click hyperlink allowing the user as much time as they need to read
17:57:32 [JAllan]
a screen of captions, before they manually unpause.
17:59:59 [Greg]
Jan: concerned that lots of things can be time-based media content with durations, so this may be too broad, beyond captions to nearly all video or audio content.
18:03:30 [JAllan]
jr: the author can provide an end time for a caption (erasure). and mark up a blank in the caption presentation. the user should be able to over-ride the marked up gap creating a gapless caption presentation.
18:04:21 [Greg]
Jim: Should we make this specific to captions? Greg: Also textual video description. Jan: Those should be covered as captions for the video description track. Greg: It might be as text only, for routing to synthesizer or braille display, without an actual audio track.
18:06:06 [Greg]
Jan: Not convinced there is need for this SC. Could imagine two ways for captions and other synchronized accessibility information can be handled: (a) baked in, nearly invisible to user agent, or (b) content format that specifies captions with on/off duration etc. In the latter case you'd tell UA how to display the info, then it falls under our "follow specifications" SC.
18:06:43 [JAllan]
gl: the point of this SC, is to allow the user to override the author markup
18:07:21 [JAllan]
... for example, having a scrolling list of the captions.
18:07:32 [Greg]
Greg: This is a case where we want the user to be able to override the "implement as spec'd" because when the author said caption goes away after a second, the user can say they want for example a scrolling list so they can take longer to read it.
18:09:59 [Greg]
In fact, we probably need to modify 1.4.1 "Render content according to specification" to explicitly exempt cases where user preferences request overriding aspects.
18:10:10 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda?
18:10:10 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
18:10:12 [Zakim]
2. Review completed action items [from JAllan]
18:10:14 [Zakim]
3. Issues (resolving) [from JAllan]
18:10:16 [Zakim]
4. Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html [from JAllan]
18:10:20 [Zakim]
5. November F2F - stop expanding the universe, tying up loose ends. assigning sections, review outstanding issues/actions needs, emails, pseudo-actions, etc [from JAllan]
18:10:22 [Zakim]
6. Action Item Review [from JAllan]
18:11:09 [JAllan]
issue: for 1.4.1 "Render content according to specification" to explicitly exempt cases where user preferences request overriding aspects.
18:11:15 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-75 - For 1.4.1 "Render content according to specification" to explicitly exempt cases where user preferences request overriding aspects. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/75/edit .
18:13:08 [Greg]
Jan: we can add a note to 1.4.1 or 1.4 to acknowledge the exceptions for user preferences.
18:13:27 [JAllan]
zakim, close item 2
18:13:27 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Review completed action items, closed
18:13:28 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:13:30 [Zakim]
3. Issues (resolving) [from JAllan]
18:13:34 [JAllan]
zakim, close item 4
18:13:34 [Zakim]
agendum 4, Media Review followup - possible additions to UAAG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0002.html, closed
18:13:36 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:13:38 [Zakim]
3. Issues (resolving) [from JAllan]
18:13:59 [JAllan]
zakim, open item 3
18:13:59 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Issues (resolving)" taken up [from JAllan]
18:14:40 [JAllan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0028.html
18:15:24 [Greg]
Jim: Went through the open issues with a blunt tool and cut the number by half, and sent a message to the group about it. Grouped together editorial ones, definition ones, etc. Eight possible new success criteria.
18:16:17 [Greg]
Jeanne is working on the editorial ones this week.
18:17:20 [Greg]
Kim: Kim and Jeanne are working on the glossary, and almost done.
18:18:15 [Greg]
Jim: Looking for volunteers to take these items.
18:19:34 [Greg]
Jim: Recommend doing this on the list, as it would take too long to do it on phone calls.
18:20:29 [Greg]
Kim: Kim and Jeanne will add the new definition issues to their pass over the glossary.
18:20:38 [Greg]
Jim: Jim will take a pass at the new SCs.
18:21:05 [JAllan]
action: jim to review new SC issues
18:21:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-462 - Review new SC issues [on Jim Allan - due 2010-11-04].
18:21:23 [Greg]
Mark: Will try to look at the Search issues.
18:21:31 [JAllan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/open
18:25:17 [JAllan]
add issue-49 to action-462
18:25:20 [Greg]
Jim: ISSUE-49 is somewhat print related, so asked Mark to include it as well.
18:26:37 [Greg]
Jim: Would appreciate help with the new SCs.
18:26:56 [JAllan]
zakim, close item 3
18:26:56 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Issues (resolving), closed
18:26:57 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:26:59 [Zakim]
5. November F2F - stop expanding the universe, tying up loose ends. assigning sections, review outstanding issues/actions needs, emails, pseudo-actions, etc [from JAllan]
18:27:52 [Greg]
Jim: Everyone please pick one of your open action items and do it this week.
18:28:16 [Greg]
Jim: If we want to get to last call we have to tie up a lot of loose ends. We'll talk next week, assign sections to different people.
18:30:52 [Greg]
Jim: Will send email clarifying the start and end times of the face-to-face teleconference on 11/9 and 11/10.
18:31:04 [Zakim]
-MarkH
18:31:05 [Zakim]
-Kim_Patch
18:31:07 [Zakim]
-Greg
18:31:07 [Zakim]
-Jan
18:31:21 [Zakim]
-jallan
18:32:12 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
18:32:14 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:32:16 [Zakim]
Attendees were Greg, Jan, jallan, Jeanne, MarkH, Kim_Patch
18:32:45 [jeanne]
zakim, bye
18:32:45 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:32:50 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:32:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-ua-minutes.html jeanne
18:33:08 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make logs public
18:33:12 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:33:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-ua-minutes.html jeanne
18:50:39 [mhakkinen]
mhakkinen has left #ua
20:24:48 [trackbot]
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